Artoria Pendragon (Saber) & EMIYA (Archer) Vs Zephyro (Honkai: Star Rail X Fate/Stay Night)

[Mbpoops]

It was old clockie inside of Mr Reca’s bounded field

Not recca

 

[Mbpoops]

Off topic but was that page for lancer ever gonna get made or nah

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Off topic but was that page for lancer ever gonna get made or nah

No because it would legit be a copy and paste due to him not being a playable character. You can use HSR Lancer in matchups if you use Boothill’s profile

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Are we serious? Honkai is more haxxed than whatever Nasuverse has going on, heck even PGR is more haxxed in terms of sheer abilities, I could guarantee this

 

[Arkenis]

The original idea was to give imaginary/honkai energy invulnerability negation but @Vietthai96 said in a different matchup that the powersystem is supernatural to bypass it

Imaginary Energy (Honkai)

Paths are congregations of Imaginary energy, born as manifestations of universal philosophical concepts. Those who believe in and practice the concepts behind a certain path become Pathstriders,[1] and the path that they happen to follow will change in accordance with their own philosophies and...

vsbattles.fandom.com

This mean supernatural=bypass servant invul?

 

[Elesia011]

Are we serious? Honkai is more haxxed than whatever Nasuverse has going on, heck even PGR is more haxxed in terms of sheer abilities, I could guarantee this

This take is on you and totally irrelevant to the point I made which is "Star rail servant doesn't beneficiate from fate servant physiology and I explained why"

There's no "extrapolations" if HSR Saber & Archer were confirmed to be post-FSN, it's insane how you even thought of this idea as if everyone in Honkaiverse has Servant Physiology, you're just thinking too much lmfao

You claim there’s no extrapolation? Then please provide me with a scan that actually supports your position—just know that I can do the same to show the contrary.

How does Saber and Archer being post-Stay Night even serve your argument here? That only means they are Servants who retain memories of the Fuyuki Holy Grail War. So what? Does that invalidate what the Star Rail side clarifies about them—that they have a completely different physiology from their native selves, or that the Nasuverse’s invasive power system is negated for both the sake of the collab and the integrity of the HSR universe? Have you even considered why Nasu rarely does crossovers with other verses in the first place?
Anyway, I’m tired of this unless you actually use lore-based key points to support your claims. That’s the only thing I’m willing to engage with.

Like if the collab which was overviewed by Kinoko Nasu himself and he decided it so that any Honkai characters bypass Servant Invulnerability, so be it, it's the author himself lol like I don't think everyone has any choices here unless you magically say "but it's the death of author!!" which genuinely doesn't work at all

Who decided what? Powerscaling is a construct within our community. You talk as if you can picture the author’s intent, yet you disregard how magic and Mysteries are explicitly negated in HSR.

I don’t need a “death of the author” argument when the lore itself gives more than enough credibility to my points.

Right here, Elesia.



Glossing this over since I was tagged specifically, I assume it's the usual Mystery argument. Oh well, which sort of Mystery are we talking about in general? Servants physiology?

I will be bold and say all

I guess I'll play the devil's advocate a bit.

Mystery comes in many forms; a single entity can have multitude forms of Mystery. Human Order negation is a mystery, Ether negation is a mystery, spiritual body is a mystery etc. It differs per individual; it's not quite dissimilar to negation.

Lugh Beowulf, for instance, has his specific mystery rank quality higher than that of Archetype: Earth and his mystery extends to potentially LUCA, up the Phylogenetic Tree, which is around 4 billion years, one of the top tiers in Mystery. Yet, his mystery does not extend to negating bullets or rockets or anything of the physical sort, and he needs to dodge them or change his form to make himself more durable to endure them; otherwise, he'd be hurt terribly or from the brunt of 50-ton punches from Thames Troll, which was stated to crush him. It's purely ether-based, so ether-induced bullets or rockets would be negated by Beo easily.

None of this would apply to the spiritual body mystery, for example.

We need thorough clarification here: physical attacks cannot harm Servants because their spiritual bodies are not material in the conventional sense. Attacking them merely alters their form, as they are spiritual entities first and foremost.

Your examples, however, are somewhat problematic.

1. Servants from the original visual novel are Divine Mysteries, invulnerable to modern weapons like the bullets you mentioned. The loophole is that even a knife can hurt Saber if wielded by another supernatural entity, such as another Servant.
Fate/Type Redline further clarifies that cutting a Servant wouldn’t harm them anyway; it’s like cutting through something formless, since they lack material composition. Even their organs and bodies are made of magical energy.

2. The cornerstone of this logic appears in the third singularity: Drake could harm supernatural entities with her bullets because she possessed a Grail even though she was still human at that point in the story meanwhile other members of her crew couldn't as they were regular human.

At this point, I could turn the demi-Servant logic back on you. What you refer to as a demi-Servant in Saber’s case is not the same as Mash’s. Saber simply cannot enter spirit form, yet her physical manifestation should still be composed of spiritual particles such as spiritrons and ether.

As for Beowulf being crushed by the troll: that still follows the same principle as it’s a clash between two supernatural entities, which remains consistent with the original rules explaining how Mysteries or supernatural beings interact.

Mysteries degrade when elucidated, which is why Age of God magecraft is referred to as Magic, for example. I think this is a reference to Honkai's heavy space sci-fi setting, so mysteries degrading statement seems to relate to the mysteries being elucidated/explained in general, not to say mystery is an inherent law in Hoyo.

I don't think this comparison holds, because you are implying that the Path of Erudition in HSR is somehow equivalent to the decline of Mysteries in the Nasuverse which would suggest that the pursuit of knowledge in HSR is ultimately meaningless. That cannot be the case.

The Path of Erudition is fundamentally about making new discoveries and solving mysteries on every scale. Its very existence proves that the civilizations in that universe have not elucidated every phenomenon within their own reality.

This directly contradicts the mechanics of Mysteries in the Nasuverse, where "Mystery" is not just a conceptual theme but a metaphysical law enforced by the Root, a principle that weakens as humanity advances. The two systems are cosmologically incompatible.

I remain unconvinced by this attempted explanation. The foundational laws governing knowledge, discovery, and the unknown operate on entirely different principles in each universe.

Mind you, I think it's just Nasu doing his fun expositioning. Any future technologies taken from the Age of Man to the Age of Gods can become a mystery, since future technologies are mysteries for this reason. Mysteries are like 'uncertain laws' as observed from the reality of the common human collective unconscious and laws imposed on the world. I like to say this a lot, but the world being a close emanation to the Root is probably because of this, since, regardless of any Age, it retains its mysteries, which I'll go into at your Root point.

Fair point, the essence of mysteries lies in the unknown, as long as it's unknown it will retain its potency.

It's obviously a general preface of Mystery since I have more to add, and I'm also not quite caught up on the mystery thread fellow supporters are pushing due to irl exams prep, but I wouldn't like to clog this HSR thread either.

Anyway, an instance to spiritual mystery, specifically, might I add, for servants, for one, is talked about in FSN itself.

Quote—
To make matters worse, Servants can turn into spirit form.
Humans who lack the ability to sense the supernatural can't even see them.
But as soon as Servants materialize, they can interact with the physical world.
You could say they're the ultimate weapons.
No modern technology or weaponry can affect a spiritual form.
Our attacks don't work on them, but they can hurt us.
It's a depressingly one-sided arrangement.
From a normal person's point of view, Servants may as well be natural disasters.
When people die to an invisible killer, those deaths will just be treated as accidents or natural causes.

'Spirit form' here is referring to etherising, which I think applies still because CastoriceTheFifth did show me an instance where Cu etherised and turned into a spirit form like EMIYA did in early UBW, for eg, which Shirou notes he almost disappeared from view, so this 'form' of mystery should apply to them. Artoria can't etherise due to being a Demi-Heroic Spirit in FSN, for example, but she's a proper Heroic Spirit (After attaining the Grail)

The concept of spirits in Fate and Honkai is not the same. Servants foundational spiritual composition was modified for the HSR setting, meaning they are no longer composed of spiritrons and ether.

Given this established change, I see no basis for claiming that HSR characters can interact with Servants in a way that scales to the native Fate system. The Honkai verse already has its own spectrum of spiritual entities, and characters routinely interact with them. It is far more consistent to assume that crossover Servants now operating under local spiritual rules—simply fall into that same category for the purpose of the narrative.

Furthermore, "spiritual mystery" cannot apply here, as they lack the spiritron composition that would grant such resistances in the first place. Likewise, Mysteries are not a metaphysical law in the Honkai universe, as I’ve explained before.

If an actual attempt is made to treat this as an upgrade, I can provide supporting scans to clarify these points further.

This, however, is a good point. And yes, I agree.

Though I'm not sure if the collab rules for the wiki allow this or not?

Definitely could be a huge problem if it were allowed.

Practically, if we're speaking in strict terms. We're stated Magic Circuits connect to the One, through the soul, by Sion in Melty Blood (RAWs say it is Root— you get the point), and I recall Magic Circuits being used in other prillya collabs by other Type Moon characters, such as this.

(hyperlinks aren't working for me for some reason right now, so do excuse me, especially with the earlier FSN quote too)

Likewise, I can't access your link informations

That all being said, I'm neutral to this, and will agree to whatever it works out according to the wiki collab rules, which I'm not quite certain of, as I didn't have any incentive to check them for any reason yet.

I haven't looked into that specifically, but I'm also not sure cross-verse scaling is freely permissible. In the context of the Hoyoverse, applying such invasive rules from Fate's power system would likely do more harm than good.

 

[Mbpoops]

I don't think this comparison holds, because you are implying that the Path of Erudition in HSR is somehow equivalent to the decline of Mysteries in the Nasuverse which would suggest that the pursuit of knowledge in HSR is ultimately meaningless. That cannot be the case.

The Path of Erudition is fundamentally about making new discoveries and solving mysteries on every scale. Its very existence proves that the civilizations in that universe have not elucidated every phenomenon within their own reality.

Though i dont know much about fate lore or the decline of mysteries, the erudition or moreso the aeon of erudition’s entire purpose is to serve as a warden of knowledge. THEY already know everything about the multiverse and because of this no new discoveries can be made making the pursuit of knowledge meaningless since everything is already known. Thats the reason lygus had his whole amphorous plan to kill Nous so that he might be able to free the universe from the prison of knowledge Nous trapped them in and new discoveries can be made. Not to say this goes against your argument just though id point that out

 

[Mbpoops]

I think this should be a seperate CRT about the a validity of hsr servants having servant physiology rather than a discussion in this page. Unless you all believe it can be solved quickly

 

[Elesia011]

Though i dont know much about fate lore or the decline of mysteries, the erudition or moreso the aeon of erudition’s entire purpose is to serve as a warden of knowledge. THEY already know everything about the multiverse and because of this no new discoveries can be made making the pursuit of knowledge meaningless since everything is already known. Thats the reason lygus had his whole amphorous plan to kill Nous so that he might be able to free the universe from the prison of knowledge Nous trapped them in and new discoveries can be made. Not to say this goes against your argument just though id point that out

This isn’t a problem in itself. Mysteries wouldn’t simply vanish just because a single entity holds the answer to everything.

For mysteries to fade, what was once unknown must become common knowledge actively understood and applied in fields like science.

A further supporting point is the existence of the Simulated Universe. The mere fact that an emanator of Erudition relies on it already shows that ultimate knowledge remains exclusive to Nous.

I think this should be a seperate CRT about the a validity of hsr servants having servant physiology rather than a discussion in this page. Unless you all believe it can be solved quickly

Even though the issue is clear in my mind, if someone is committed to pursuing this, it would be better to separate it into a dedicated hax CRT.

The core problem here was that the OP presented their arguments as if they were already established facts, rather than interpretations requiring proof and discussion.

 

[Yanina92]

Agree with Elesia

 

[Mbpoops]

This isn’t a problem in itself. Mysteries wouldn’t simply vanish just because a single entity holds the answer to everything.

For mysteries to fade, what was once unknown must become common knowledge actively understood and applied in fields like science.

A further supporting point is the existence of the Simulated Universe. The mere fact that an emanator of Erudition relies on it already shows that ultimate knowledge remains exclusive to Nous.

Makes sense to me tbh ty for clarifying

 

[ShinMaximillion]

We need thorough clarification here: physical attacks cannot harm Servants because their spiritual bodies are not material in the conventional sense. Attacking them merely alters their form, as they are spiritual entities first and foremost.

Your examples, however, are somewhat problematic.

1. Servants from the original visual novel are Divine Mysteries, invulnerable to modern weapons like the bullets you mentioned. The loophole is that even a knife can hurt Saber if wielded by another supernatural entity, such as another Servant.
Fate/Type Redline further clarifies that cutting a Servant wouldn’t harm them anyway; it’s like cutting through something formless, since they lack material composition. Even their organs and bodies are made of magical energy.

2. The cornerstone of this logic appears in the third singularity: Drake could harm supernatural entities with her bullets because she possessed a Grail even though she was still human at that point in the story meanwhile other members of her crew couldn't, as they were regular human.

At this point, I could turn the demi-Servant logic back on you. What you refer to as a demi-Servant in Saber’s case is not the same as Mash’s. Saber simply cannot enter spirit form, yet her physical manifestation should still be composed of spiritual particles such as spiritrons and ether.

As for Beowulf being crushed by the troll: that still follows the same principle as it’s a clash between two supernatural entities, which remains consistent with the original rules explaining how Mysteries or supernatural beings interact.

Beowulf point is wrong

Aoko: "...I see.If even Alice couldn't handle it, I never would've stood a chance....But that means non-magical attacks should work, right? Thames is powered by magical energy, but its punch is just raw physical force, isn't it? One solid hit and it'd be crushed."

The way she words it, it seems like raw physical force just works out fine because his mystery extends to that purely— towards the fifth theoretical factor, even if the being is composed of and powered by magical energy. Alice furthers it, saying that machine guns or if a rocket launcher were to be used, it'd dodge. Beo wouldn't need to transform into a giant ape-like creature to resist the force of its punch with his durability if his Mystery could negate it. As I said, many sorts of mysteries, so it's all context dependent. Another point would be how fairies are hurt by silver, I recall. A further example for Beo, that I talked about is as follows below.

Alice: "It's not that simple, unfortunately. Its base form is that of a wolf, but it transforms to adapt. It took Thames' punch by turning into a giant, ape-like creature. Even if a machine gun or a rocket launcher were to be used, it would likely dodge or transform into a creature with a hardened body to defend itself."

We do later see Soujuurou, someone who's explicitly stated not to have a single hint of magical energy, hurt Beo by

Soujyuro's small step neatly evaded the claws. But he had a different motive. He was merely positioning himself for the next move. His intention was never to avoid anything. From the beginning, his mind was focused on but one thing. One point to aim for. One mind. One breath. He picked the perfect opening in the wolf's torso, the precise microsecond between contraction and relaxation. That one point alone was the crack in the dam of life.

There was another muffled impact.
The second strike penetrated to the exact same spot the first strike had, crushing the beast's heart.This time, the blood that flew into the air belonged to the gasping wolf.

Regarding the points with servants in particular, I don't think I disagree. Though do note, FSN Saber with her physical body isn't entirely the same as normal servants, as we get stated she's still susceptible to catching a cold and such in her physical body.

As I stated in my original post, it was merely one example of it, and there can exist various types of mysteries to boot. Because servants are beings based on the imaginary factor as their primary composition, if their environment doesn't have that, they can't survive in a vacuum of space and effectively need to depend on their ether for respiration (blood similarly works based on ether flow) when drowned until it runs out, and you need ether to deal damage to them or a mystery on a similar scale as the bare minimum. Such as when Drake had access to the Lesser Grail of Okeanos, which is all explicitly mass swirling of magical energy.

FSN further states that every action of servants, especially moving and combat, expends magical energy in varying amounts, so I can see the paper knife quote you're referring to being applied in this instance. Okita's quote is correct as well, since in FSN and I'm pretty certain, in EXTRA (?) they say the servant's material vessel is irrelevant and can be restored with magical energy, what remains as 'wounds' is purely spiritual for them.

I don't think this comparison holds, because you are implying that the Path of Erudition in HSR is somehow equivalent to the decline of Mysteries in the Nasuverse, which would suggest that the pursuit of knowledge in HSR is ultimately meaningless. That cannot be the case.

The Path of Erudition is fundamentally about making new discoveries and solving mysteries on every scale. Its very existence proves that the civilizations in that universe have not elucidated every phenomenon within their own reality.

This directly contradicts the mechanics of Mysteries in the Nasuverse, where "Mystery" is not just a conceptual theme but a metaphysical law enforced by the Root, a principle that weakens as humanity advances. The two systems are cosmologically incompatible.

I remain unconvinced by this attempted explanation. The foundational laws governing knowledge, discovery, and the unknown operate on entirely different principles in each universe.

Fair point, the essence of mysteries lies in the unknown, as long as it's unknown it will retain its potency.

Yeah, I agree with most of what you stated later since that more or less goes in line. The former, though, I'm not sure what's problematic about it, assuming since I stated I thought Nasu's intent was that, not that Mysteries as a law necessarily are a thing in Honkai.

Though do note, I will admit, I'm not very well known on the paths and such in HSR, so I'm basing this merely on what I know from Type Moon. I think the key takeaway here was that Mysteries were merely 'degraded', not that they don't exist or have all been elucidated, examples relating to such—

Miracles that could only be realized with magecraft in the distant past have
been reduced to common tools and appliances.

Magic Resistance: EX
In the future, the arcane has been elucidated and there's nothing left to disclose. Her anti-magecraft protections are perfect.

The latter one being Golden BB, though, all mysteries being elucidated doesn't mean Mystery doesn't exist as a whole. Where there's nothing more 'mysteries' left behind, all that will remain behind is the knowledge; mystery is akin to innate darkness, whereas knowledge is 'light'. Age of Gods is an eternal cycle of regression where mysteries still thrive, whereas Age of Man is about 'knowledge', and when mankind of the Age of Man reaches the Inner Sea of the Planet, mysteries and knowledge will both remain together so it's not necessarily that 'Mystery' does not exist because of the Path of Erudition, that is assuming what you told me about the path applies and we're applying the overall Type Moon cosmological framework to HSR here.

However, as I stated in my earlier post, Root is knowledge and mystery both, and it is true, it's a law of it. I agree, hence why I'm unsure if this really applies and neutral.

The concept of spirits in Fate and Honkai is not the same. Servants foundational spiritual composition was modified for the HSR setting, meaning they are no longer composed of spiritrons and ether.

Given this established change, I see no basis for claiming that HSR characters can interact with Servants in a way that scales to the native Fate system. The Honkai verse already has its own spectrum of spiritual entities, and characters routinely interact with them. It is far more consistent to assume that crossover Servants now operating under local spiritual rules—simply fall into that same category for the purpose of the narrative.

Furthermore, "spiritual mystery" cannot apply here, as they lack the spiritron composition that would grant such resistances in the first place. Likewise, Mysteries are not a metaphysical law in the Honkai universe, as I’ve explained before.

If an actual attempt is made to treat this as an upgrade, I can provide supporting scans to clarify these points further.


Definitely could be a huge problem if it were allowed.

Likewise, I can't access your link informations

I haven't looked into that specifically, but I'm also not sure cross-verse scaling is freely permissible. In the context of the Hoyoverse, applying such invasive rules from Fate's power system would likely do more harm than good.

Indeed, I agree with all of that since I never disagreed on this point again. I didn't specifically know about the Servants' spiritual composition being 'modified'; it depends on the extent. Are we stated they're no longer composed of spiritrons and ether? If so, then I presume Mystery doesn't apply, let alone crossverse rules. If it's the opposite, then it all comes down to VSBW's definition of what works in crossverse and what doesn't, I'd suppose.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

This isn’t a problem in itself. Mysteries wouldn’t simply vanish just because a single entity holds the answer to everything.

For mysteries to fade, what was once unknown must become common knowledge actively understood and applied in fields like science.

^

This.
Why else would Mages Association prevent their arcane from leaking onto the world of the common man? If it were a problem of simply 'learning about arcane of the old degrades mystery', then they wouldn't at all take pupils or teach anything to their descendents and more likely to end up as Dead Apostles studying their field themselves while being extremely isolated which isn't the case.

A magical theory engraved into the world. Its strength is greatly influenced by the faith and the collective unconscious of the people.
As a Mystery propagates, it loses power. However, the reason they become more stable as knowledge about them spreads, though it may seem contradictory at first glance, is because of this system of Magical Foundations.
In the present day, the most widespread and most powerful Magical Foundation is the “Teachings of God,” used by the Holy Church.
Of course, there also exist families who develop magical formulas entirely independent of such Foundations, and weirdos like Flat who “build an entirely new formula from scratch every time.”

Mystery, degrading or remaining a pure mystery, is determined by the collective unconscious and their knowledge of the arcane, not a single individual.

 

[Elesia011]

Beowulf point is wrong

Aoko: "...I see.If even Alice couldn't handle it, I never would've stood a chance....But that means non-magical attacks should work, right? Thames is powered by magical energy, but its punch is just raw physical force, isn't it? One solid hit and it'd be crushed."
The way she words it, it seems like raw physical force just works out fine because his mystery extends to that purely— towards the fifth theoretical factor, even if the being is composed of and powered by magical energy. Alice furthers it, saying that machine guns or if a rocket launcher were to be used, it'd dodge. Beo wouldn't need to transform into a giant ape-like creature to resist the force of its punch with his durability if his Mystery could negate it. As I said, many sorts of mysteries, so it's all context dependent. Another point would be how fairies are hurt by silver, I recall. A further example for Beo, that I talked about is as follows below.

I think you're mixing up something crucial here. First, beings powered by Aoko's magical energy doesn't imply all her Ploys lack physicality.

1. The Ploys themselves benefit from various resistances and invulnerabilities tied to Mysteries, as seen in the comparison between Touko's runes, the troll, and Beo.
2. Troll negates runes because it is an older Mystery, a millennium old.
   Beowulf negates the Ploys' abilities because he is a Mystery at least three times older than they are.

Now, here are all the nuances. Aoko assumes they can physically beat Beo because they have nothing to scale to him in terms of Mystery, and since he has a physical body, conventional methods should work on him. This makes sense: Alice used a Ploy that focuses on raw, direct physical damage to fight what cannot be harmed through Mystery and even when that failed, they were left with no further alternatives as alice insist for analogy that guns or even a rocket can't kill Beo as he can change form (not dodge) to defend.

Note that Nasu himself has offered similar input on such cases, stating it’s easier to physically destroy supernatural items like araya sasari bones rather than killing it throught death spells or Meodp or supernatural abilities, as the latter instantly triggers their innate resistances. As such, physical beings such as mundane humans are more vulnerable to physical attacks though that’s not the case for purely spiritual entities like Servants, which is why they are generally considered beyond modern weapons.

The idea that fairies can be harmed by metal feels a bit strange to me, and it isn’t even universally true. Woodwose didn’t believe he could be hurt by Gareth wielding a metal weapon due to their difference in rank yet it still worked, but only because Gareth was Ainsel’s next generation.

We do later see Soujurou, someone who's explicitly stated not to have a single hint of magical energy, hurt Beo by

Sojuro’s case here is literally what I explained earlier. He destroyed Beowulf’s heart through sheer strength and skill, because Beowulf indeed had a physical body and could bleed. Infact even margus would rather kill other margus throught spells capable of physical interaction over other types of spells.

Mystery resides in the unknown. What possesses a physical body is bound by physical laws, and in such cases, I believe Mystery-based resistance doesn’t extend to that especially considering Nasu’s takes on formless versus physical beings and Beo here is a level of mystics beyond ploys capable of erasing attacks lacking mysteries just because it operates on different order or conciousness as humans. But you get my point which is of the line of; having a physical body made of flesh and blood makes you vulnerable to physical attacks.

Regarding the points with servants in particular, I don't think I disagree. Though do note, FSN Saber with her physical body isn't entirely the same as normal servants, as we get stated she's still susceptible to catching a cold and such in her physical body.

As I stated in my original post, it was merely one example of it, and there can exist various types of mysteries to boot. Because servants are beings based on the imaginary factor as their primary composition, if their environment doesn't have that, they can't survive in a vacuum of space and effectively need to depend on their ether for respiration (blood similarly works based on ether flow) when drowned until it runs out, and you need ether to deal damage to them or a mystery on a similar scale as the bare minimum. Such as when Drake had access to the Lesser Grail of Okeanos, which is all explicitly mass swirling of magical energy.

FSN further states that every action of servants, especially moving and combat, expends magical energy in varying amounts, so I can see the paper knife quote you're referring to being applied in this instance. Okita's quote is correct as well, since in FSN and I'm pretty certain, in EXTRA (?) they say the servant's material vessel is irrelevant and can be restored with magical energy, what remains as 'wounds' is purely spiritual for them.

There are actually inputs on that, their body can be fully restored as long as a fragment of spirit core hasn't vanished. Basically servants just dies by wasting magical energy to death by leaking it out through opened wounds whenever they are severely injured in the spiritual level since blood for servants is homeostatic magical energy meant to keep the Spirit Origin working

Yeah, I agree with most of what you stated later since that more or less goes in line. The former, though, I'm not sure what's problematic about it, assuming since I stated I thought Nasu's intent was that, not that Mysteries as a law necessarily are a thing in Honkai.

Though do note, I will admit, I'm not very well known on the paths and such in HSR, so I'm basing this merely on what I know from Type Moon. I think the key takeaway here was that Mysteries were merely 'degraded', not that they don't exist or have all been elucidated, examples relating to such—





The latter one being Golden BB, though, all mysteries being elucidated doesn't mean Mystery doesn't exist as a whole. Where there's nothing more 'mysteries' left behind, all that will remain behind is the knowledge; mystery is akin to innate darkness, whereas knowledge is 'light'. Age of Gods is an eternal cycle of regression where mysteries still thrive, whereas Age of Man is about 'knowledge', and when mankind of the Age of Man reaches the Inner Sea of the Planet, mysteries and knowledge will both remain together so it's not necessarily that 'Mystery' does not exist because of the Path of Erudition, that is assuming what you told me about the path applies and we're applying the overall Type Moon cosmological framework to HSR here.

However, as I stated in my earlier post, Root is knowledge and mystery both, and it is true, it's a law of it. I agree, hence why I'm unsure if this really applies and neutral.

These are fair enough points, there isn't much to say against this.

Indeed, I agree with all of that since I never disagreed on this point again. I didn't specifically know about the Servants' spiritual composition being 'modified'; it depends on the extent. Are we stated they're no longer composed of spiritrons and ether? If so, then I presume Mystery doesn't apply, let alone crossverse rules. If it's the opposite, then it all comes down to VSBW's definition of what works in crossverse and what doesn't, I'd suppose.

Yes, exactly. They aren't made of magical energy, nor can they even harness any power tied to Mysteries. That’s the core point of my rebuttal in the first place.

^

This.
Why else would Mages Association prevent their arcane from leaking onto the world of the common man? If it were a problem of simply 'learning about arcane of the old degrades mystery', then they wouldn't at all take pupils or teach anything to their descendents and more likely to end up as Dead Apostles studying their field themselves while being extremely isolated which isn't the case.

They mostly don't chose the Dead apostle route because anyway they can pass on their research and legacies through their families magic crest and performing surnatural phenomenons in broad daylight put you at a risk of being eliminated by the world. Leaking their arcans to the world of man is a direct defiance to the world and the rules it established and do note that even when a margus take an apprentice, they never reveal them their most secret arcans as it would literally divides it's power
I think there was a moment we're Rin volonturely omitted details abouts shirou tracing the zelrech sword in fear of being killed by zelrech actually or something(?)

Mystery, degrading or remaining a pure mystery, is determined by the collective unconscious and their knowledge of the arcane, not a single individual.

Never did I imply it was a single individual process. Check my comment on the Aeon of Erudition.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

Now, here are all the nuances. Aoko assumes they can physically beat Beo because they have nothing to scale to him in terms of Mystery, and since he has a physical body, conventional methods should work on him. This makes sense: Alice used a Ploy that focuses on raw, direct physical damage to fight what cannot be harmed through Mystery and even when that failed, they were left with no further alternatives as alice insist for analogy that guns or even a rocket can't kill Beo as he can change form (not dodge) to defend.

The dodge thing comes from JP, I reckon, one of my friends looked the JP up. I can provide the text on DMs if you want. Mahoyo's official TL is sort of messed up here and there. But yes, I will say that because Beo is a werewolf elemental, I suppose? Aoko states to Soujuurou how, for Flat Snark's creations, because they operate outside of the collective unconscious (makes sense since they're effectively fictious), modern weaponry has no effect or use against them. Beo's probably the opposing case to a degree.

Note that Nasu himself has offered similar input on such cases, stating it’s easier to physically destroy supernatural items like araya sasari bones rather than killing it throught death spells or Meodp or supernatural abilities, as the latter instantly triggers their innate resistances. As such, physical beings such as mundane humans are more vulnerable to physical attacks though that’s not the case for purely spiritual entities like Servants, which is why they are generally considered beyond modern weapons.

This is what I think, agreed. I'm sure you know the Sarira arm is capable of being killed by MEoDP, but at a higher level, since the one who it belonged to attained nirvana. This is the same reason as to why MEoDP users have an innate mystery against all sorts of external causes of death ie EE, Death Manipulation etc.

The follow-up overall seems fine, wouldn't want to clog the thread, so I'll leave it here.

Never did I imply it was a single individual process. Check my comment on the Aeon of Erudition.

In reference to the Nous bits. I was in agreement with you there, hence why I began with ^

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Anyway, my votes are on Archer and Saber, but I believe it's for the best to have everything clarified in a thread for clearance.