TenSura WN Revision — Back to Tier 1 (Recreated)

[CodeCCLL]

I'm gladly that staff have finally decided to do their jobs properly and are actively discussing this thread.

 

[Berga14]

I'm gladly that staff have finally decided to do their jobs properly and are actively discussing this thread.

Lmao

 

[Bahaha]

Guys if Fuse says Rimuru is the first person to travel back in time because he's the only one transcendent of time-space, then what do you Chloe is doing when he also says that she shifts world-lines. One thing she is not doing is traveling to the past of the same world-line.

 

[Nonynho]

One thing she is not doing is traveling to the past of the same world-line.

couldn't quite get what you mean here, may i ask you to elucidate?

 

[Exoko]

couldn't quite get what you mean here, may i ask you to elucidate?

I think they're saying that Rimuru was the first to travel back in time according to the author, and that Chloe is shifting worldlines

 

[Reiner04]

I'm gladly that staff have finally decided to do their jobs properly and are actively discussing this thread.

That is what generally should be done, unless one doesn't have the time to go over the details and is instead directly giving their overall thoughts. It should also be noted that discussions, arguments, and debates can be stretched endlessly with continuous back n forth as long as a debater is persistent, this applies to both staff and users. Most people don't really look at their own faults, they consider and interpret things in a way that allows them to reach their desired conclusion. This can happen on either side, we tend to side with what we want and what we consider to be true in our own view. In the end, we should respect each other's opinions and just move on.

 

[Shadow7001]

Okay, I promise a response and while I'm pretty darn late and this thread probably isn't passing anyway, I don't wanna hold onto this response any further and would just get straight into it. Here goes:

AND something outside All Time is considered beyond Time itself.


Something thrown outside All Time is considered to be "swallowed by the space time continuum"

Okay, you do see how these two statements are a bit contradictory right? How is something outside All Time, both beyond time but also swallowed by the space-time continuum?

Question: Is the "infinite lifespan" thing consistent? (Outside of Hypertimelime related feats and before chapter 248)

Answer: Yes. Here are a few examples, not just from Yuuki(a spiritual lifeform) but even lesser stages like semi spiritual lifeforms.


(Immortality here means "hard to kill")









There are more examples but these should be enough.

Summary: Yuuki's lifespan being infinite is NOT inconsistent with the series, it's a supporting proof that there's a hypertimeline.

Hyper-Time
Well, basically, "Dimensions/Worlds/Universes" (i.e., what encompasses the World-lines) have their own Hypertime.

For starters, here's a plot line:

• Before gaining Yog Sothoth (Reading Steiner), she could only travel to the normal past via her skill <time Travelled>. Now, however, after gaining Yog Sothoth, she can even travel to other World-lines.

Yeah, so this is a bit of a problem. You see, a hypertimeline only makes sense if the temporal axes have unique points of origin, that is, a hypertimeline must have a different point of origin to a regular universe or multiverse or in this case a world-line. This is one of the best ways to prove the flow of time is orthogonal to the regular multiverse. Now to prove unique origins of time, it's true that time traveling within the world-line and also time traveling to other world-lines does depict a time-like progression of said world-lines however, this is only true if you always use the same ability in both cases of time travel. If they're different abilities (you didn't really clarify it here so this is confusing), then it's not really evidence. If they're different abilities, then you'd need other more explicit evidence to show that this new ability only works for traveling through the hypertimeline (which is obviously very hard to do because few fictional works ever use the term itself let alone using it properly in this context). If they were the same time travel ability, then it'd be very good evidence.

Next up, even outside "All of Time", outside the Space Time Continuum, Time still flowed and Space still expanded and both ONLY stopped after reaching the end of Space and Time.

This just implies a different space-time altogether. It's very common for fiction to use places that are "outside of time/space-time" but often it still has both space and time. This isn't really good evidence for an orthogonal axis of time.

From this, we can deduce a few things in summary:

1. Rimuru was sent outside All Time, beyond Time. It was done by reverse Time Stop, and since we assume the default range of that is Low 2-C, and that “All of Time" is Low 2-C as well, which means Rimuru HAS TO BE thrown a Low 2-C distance away.

I'm.... not sure what this really means. The range is Low 2-C, sure, but you don't really need to rely on the mechanics of time stop to prove that.

1. Chrono Saltation is called "Super-Space-Time Magic", where in super is synonym with hyper.

This doesn't really mean much, the terms super/hyper are rarely if ever used in the context of a supertimeline/hypertime.

Why is Orthogonality necessary here?
Some people brought up that in the previous CRT that this "time" could just be a parallel time, not a hyper time. Well, here's the thing, that's just not possible when it comes to Time & Infinities.

No, it very much is possible and barring the resolution of the issues that I pointed out it seems to be that the people who called it "parallel" time were pretty much right. You need something to prove that the hypertimeline moves perpendicular to the direction of the normal time here, not parallel to.

Time & Infinities (Theoretical Model)
You see, when we reach a point where "Time" of X ends whereas Time of Y hasn't ended as a timeline, it necessitates an orthgonal view of Time. I like to call this Infinite Unsynchronity.

No, this is patently false. Why? Look no further.

Here, the "Time X" ends before Time Y yet neither are perpendicular or orthogonal to one another DESPITE clearly being different axes of time themselves. You seem to misunderstand this part. Being different axes of time alone isn't enough, they must flow in different directions in which case they're not here, but this still satisfies your analogy here.

Take, for example, two lines X and Y. Two Continuums. Two timelines. They have different flows of Time, but only finitely such. That is, let's say 5 years pass in X, then 10 years or 1 year would pass in Y. A finite difference. You can visualize these continuums as an acute angle between the two continuums

This right here an issue. An orthogonal flow of time doesn't necessitate that there's any difference of "time" between the two axes (of course, having a difference isn't a dealbreaker either, but it's not what I'd call a plus point either) You're thinking of time as two lines on a cartesian plane forming an acute angle with a different rate of change for them w.r.t to the "X-axis" here (which is unironically what you say in your very next paragraph) but it just doesn't like that with time. Time traveling to a different world-line whether to the same point in time or a point in time slightly ahead (within the new world-line compared to the point in time you left from in the previous world-line) are both equally valid to be sure (at least if the same technique is employed) but a mere difference in time alone just isn't sufficient like I said earlier.

Now, you see, both are flowing towards the X axis direction. Both have the same direction of time, essentially. Therefore, no matter how much time difference (finite) there is, the "end of time" (passage of eternity) will always be the same in the end. It's like how adding 1 to Infinity doesn't make it more than infinity (countable of course)

No, they do NOT have the same direction. The horizontal line can be a worldline, the line at an acute angle would be the hypertimeline in this case. The purpose of this hypertimeline is to create an uncountably infinite number of 4D world-lines which is what gets you Low 1-C, similar to how a 4D world-line creates an uncountably infinite number of 3D "slices" of a universe, giving you Low 2-C. It HAS to flow in a different direction to be able to do this and it's also why it has a different point of origin to your normal world-line (unlike what this picture depicts) because it's creating (originating) a new world-line every instance of its passing, giving them different origins (in this diagrams case, imagine drawing more horizontal lines parallel to the original one, that is what's supposed to be happening here).

On the other hand, in orthogonality, we can imagine two continuums X and Y, we can imagine it as a Right-angle.

As you can see, the right angle is akin to that x-y axes themselves (which are orthogonal to each other). That is, no matter how much time passes on X, no matter how "long" X is, the entire x-axis is only a single instance, a single moment in time, a single point, on Y axis. So, even if, let's say, infinite time passes along X, even then, Y would remain as is. Because X and Y are orthogonal to each other.

Well yes, that's the difference between traveling across a normal timeline and a hypertimeline. And yes, both images would technically work as a depiction of a hypertimeline structure, but the main evidence that you provided just isn't there and showing that a difference in time (like with the argument) is not a disqualifier isn't really a positive argument for you because we already know it doesn't have to be EXACTLY a 90 degree orthogonal difference for this to work. You're still lacking that fundamental piece of evidence to prove that these axes have different points of origin and aren't just parallel in nature AND that one embeds the other creating an uncountably infinite instances of it (or in simpler worlds, a time-like progression).

Another easy way is to put it like this.
We know Rimuru was outside the continuum, yet he was drifting in some "space" under the flow of time. Well, this particular case of Space refers to the 5-Dimensional Space (albeit not significant or tierable)

Crossing between Universes and Higher Dimensions​

Speed isn't defined by any number of spatial dimensions but simply distance over time. Meaning that it is possible for 1-dimensional characters to be faster than those who cover many dimensions. And the distance between two timelines is defined as the 5th dimension (Or a 4th spatial dimension) that separates two or more universes. Said distance is often unknown as it could be anywhere between much smaller than the Universal radius and infinite. But such details are only known to those who can travel through additional spatial dimensions. For that reason, crossing Universes is unquantifiable for speed unless details are specifically stated.
Well, this means the space between Universes is by default 5D. That's insignificant in size, so it's not tierable, BUT the orthogonal direction is there.

Therefore, if, let's say, some form Time flows over that dimension too, it would by default have to be a different orthogonal direction.

Yes, it would be orthogonal, but then you can't prove that it embeds the other space-times/world-lines because it literally exists outside of them, or in other words, you cannot then prove that this flow of time creates uncountably infinite copies/time-like progression of the world-lines. This would just be a random space-time separate from the continuum flowing in a different direction, it isn't embedding them in any way. To use your diagram analogy, imagine a horizontal line on one piece of paper, and a vertical or orthogonal line but on another piece of paper. Neither embeds the other despite them being orthogonal, so it doesn't really work.

And since we assume by default that Time is infinite, it means if the higher dimension is temporal in nature instead of spatial, we by default assume it's significant.

Uh.... this is not how it works. The dimension separating two or more universes is ALWAYS spatial in nature, that's how dimensions work. A Low 2-C universe is an infinite 4D object consisting of uncountably infinitely many 3D slices. They need a 4th spatial axis to separate them and keep them parallel. This is why the dimension can't be "temporal" in nature. It can have time, it can be a space-time, but that doesn't mean it embeds them (unless you have evidence that this "in-between space-time" actually surrounds all space-times and doesn't just exist to separate two of them, then this might work as some evidence).

So, in essence, yes, this higher "Time" is by default infinite and Orthodonal due to its nature.

Time is always infinite, you did not however prove that it's both simultaneously "higher/embeds other space-times" and that it's orthogonal.


This is my short response to this CRT. It is by no means a comprehensive nor an exhaustive list of issues that I've found with this, but I do believe these are some very key points that this CRT hinges on that need to be brought under more scrutiny that I believe they've gotten here. I'll see later if I can respond to more points as well and possibly elaborate further on what I've said.

 

[Reiner04]

From this, we can deduce a few things in summary:

1. Rimuru was sent outside All Time, beyond Time. It was done by reverse Time Stop, and since we assume the default range of that is Low 2-C, and that “All of Time" is Low 2-C as well, which means Rimuru HAS TO BE thrown a Low 2-C distance away.

Wait i must have overlooked it but, range of Time manp is not Low 2-C or Universal+ but just Universal. If you look at range page it says:

Universal: 46.6 billion LY and up

 

[Reiner04]

@Berga14 You deleted your comment but to answer your query:

• In case of time stop sub-ability, unless users are shown or stated to have limits in terms of range, or that their ranges extend to areas beyond the universe, then they are assumed to be universal or higher by the virtue of affecting the very flow of time itself, thus all of time in the universe.

I'm not understanding this then

The wording might be weird, but I am sure it means 'universal range,' confusing part about how it then proceeds to explain that 'all time in the universe' specifically refers to the present time only. I am certain of this because, before the Time Stop page was deleted (due to being a sub-power of Time Manipulation), I was the one who wrote the range section, and its range was Universal.

Post in thread 'Time-manipulation/Time-Stop range revisions' https://vsbattles.com/threads/time-manipulation-time-stop-range-revisions.144344/post-5751908

 

[Berga14]

You deleted your comment

Yeah, i went and did some research myself so there was no need to keep the comment

 

[TheHyperGuy]

The author did not directly talk about the future, that's exactly why I put the "future" inside braces. However, if you read the comments carefully, the reader asks him "since Rimuru (Ciel) confirmed was sent to the future and confirmed (as an observer) that the world did not end, that means the world must exist up till that point, correct?
To which, the author replied
"No, I was thinking of the destination/arrived future itself not existing". This means while he was inside the world and sent to the future and confirms its existence, when the world was destroyed (end of time), both those things ceases to exist.

Past*

But we also have ciel stating directly that the world hasnt collapse which is the opposite of what WOG is implying here.

The lifespan of the planet(stars-> by setto) has already ended a long time ago, but the collapse of the world hasn’t yet been reached. From that I deduced, Yuuki probably couldn’t destroy the world itself yet.

Next, just because you hyperfocus on one piece of the line, doesnt mean that correlates with anything about the past itself. WOG didnt mention anything about the past, theres no reason to assert that is the case, is all im saying.

"Up to that point" is referring to the world not being collapsed and still in normal operation while WOG is stating it's supposed to be a place the is collapsed and there is no future beyond that.

Also want to point out, time still exists at that point;

Thank goodness….. Eh? This needlessly large and empty world is the “End of Time and Space”, she said?
Certainly, time doesn’t flow and is in a stopped state. I can’t sense the spread of space either…..

So there's no reason/evidence to assert the past equally doesnt exist. You're only putting that there in order to further your initial arguments and premise, which im saying is misleading. Leave the quote as is, quote is as its stated, dont add words of your own.

End of the day, let the quote/scan speak for itself instead of adding your own context which can mislead people.

 

[Mbpoops]

Wait i must have overlooked it but, range of Time manp is not Low 2-C or Universal+ but just Universal. If you look at range page it says:

Was rimuru not affecting the entire spacetime continuum with his ability?

 

[Nonynho]

Okay, you do see how these two statements are a bit contradictory right? How is something outside All Time, both beyond time but also swallowed by the space-time continuum?

Question: Ain't time outside time Hypertimeline, therefore exactly what we're proposing? or am i missing something?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Question: Ain't time outside time Hypertimeline, therefore exactly what we're proposing? or am i missing something?

Not necessarly... A hypertimeline is a structure that has one "maintimeline" that can affect all others, but the opposite is not true, so it has a form of supremacy over the others. just being outside it does not make it have a superiority over othertimelines, but rather go against it...

(The time outside of time is rather due to the Great Spirit of time being Omnipresent...)

 

[Vesxpura]

Question: Ain't time outside time Hypertimeline, therefore exactly what we're proposing? or am i missing something?

a hypertimeline can be observed if it encompasses lesser space-time and possesses another degree of freedom, i.e if you move between the past and future in the lesser space-time you move no position in a hypertimeline

 

[Reiner04]

Question: Ain't time outside time Hypertimeline, therefore exactly what we're proposing? or am i missing something?

No. Our FAQ outlines every condition that qualifies for Hypertime, and 'time outside of time' is not one of them.

Also, it is worth mentioning that the author must be clear about his intent and provide an explanation that there is actual time outside of all time, not just pieces of his incoherent writing brought together to make sense out of it somehow with exaggerated ends that he never established. If the text is contradictory, it simply means that is not truly outside of time and the statement is unreliable, similar to how the 'Timeless Voids' standard normally works. It isn’t a matter of saying, 'We aren't talking about Timeless Voids, we are saying there is Hypertime, so it’s different.' No. being outside of 'all time' implies a Timeless Void, and if there is still time within it, then it was never truly 'outside' unless author provides some explaination for it. This standard was created specifically to prevent such unreasonable upgrades.

Neither would dimensions that are timeless voids or are described as beyond spacetime in general qualify. Unless they contradict themselves, these realms should not have a time dimension at all, with change in them happening according to other principles. If they, on the other hand, do contradict themselves, the statement of them not having regular time would inherently not be reliable, making the idea equally unusable.

 

[Nonynho]

hmm, it seems to be such, IMO, because while Rimuru almost* didn't move in time when he got outside of the end of space and time, someone waited for him for years as presented a bizillion times at this point

a hypertimeline can be observed if it encompasses lesser space-time and possesses another degree of freedom, i.e if you move between the past and future in the lesser space-time you move no position in a hypertimeline

 

[Vesxpura]

hmm, it seems to be such, IMO, because while Rimuru almost* didn't move in time when he got outside of the end of space and time, someone waited for him for years as presented a bizillion times at this point

ok, lets say that is true(im not going to comment on its validity), orthogonality isnt that much of a required evidence, but it is a requirement. for a hypertimeline you need to prove that the higher temporal dimension does infact take an uncountably infinite amount of "snapshots" of the 4 dimensional continuum. And this goes without saying there are antifeats to this too.

 

[Mbpoops]

So basically rimuru is 3A

 

[Nexus_Ratiocination]

erm can the opposition (@TheHyperGuy @Reiner04 @Shadow7001 ) and the supporting side (wich i think its only astral? right? @Astral_Trinity439 ) to make a summary please? i came so late to the thread and its too much (6 pages) and i really got confused because of that. im neutral for now and kinda leaning for the opposition because of shadow final reply.

@Reiner04 you are an admin right? can you please change my name into: Nexus_Ratiocination
this glazing hater name is so CRINGE .

 

[Shadow7001]

Okay so from what I'm seeing, it's debatable whether Chloe even moved to other world-lines or simply moved the world-line with an ability that is a direct reference to Steins;Gate interestingly. Now while I'm not gonna use the latter fact to state that multiple world-lines in Tensura are impossible (unlike in Steins;Gate where there is one world-line with countless possibilities), the fact is; if she didn't time travel to different points in times toward different world-lines then there's simply no hypertimeline argument. That's the end of it and this thread is, as far as I'm concerned, completely bunk and should be rejected.

I just saw that this argument has been made several times and has always been unsuccessful. If need be, should I make a CRT to propose a discussion rule for this particular line of scaling (not Tier 1 Tensura entirely, I don't think that itself is wrong)?

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

I just saw that this argument has been made several times and has always been unsuccessful. If need be, should I make a CRT to propose a discussion rule for this particular line of scaling (not Tier 1 Tensura entirely, I don't think that itself is wrong)?

It’s never been rejected btw. Only a 6D one and then the other one astral just closed because he had something irl. It has in fact been accepted before (ignore the other stuff

 

[Reiner04]

@Reiner04 you are an admin right? can you please change my name into: Nexus_Ratiocination
this glazing hater name is so CRINGE .

I am hope.

You should ask @Antvasima about it, he can help you in that regard.

 

[Antvasima]

@Reiner04 you are an admin right? can you please change my name into: Nexus_Ratiocination
this glazing hater name is so CRINGE .

Your Fandom wiki username and your VSBW Forum username are required to be identical, so you need to change your Fandom wiki username first and then ask me or another bureaucrat to update your account username here to become identical.

However, you are only allowed to change your Fandom username one single time, so you have to be very careful while doing so.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

A quick DeepL translation tells me that the author and the person who asked the question are talking about latent heat, entropy, and the 'stopped world,' also called the 'suspended world' and its relation with time. Although MTL shouldn't be used on its own, the untranslated scan from the author regarding 'no future' makes me feel we should go over his other statements as well. Even if they are untranslated, we may need them to understand his thought process and ensure all aspects of 'his statements outside of work' are in link.

Spoiler: SPOILER

Fair. However, the key distinction between SW and EoST is that SW is just time stop on an existing world. EoST is where the world has ended and doesn't exist.

DOTA or 'Death of the Author' is used when an author's work and their words outside of it (such as in an interview) directly contradict each other. It suggests prioritizing the work itself over the author's external statements. It is a very famous, concise one word way to describe this entire concept.

Most of the stuffs seems to be just very specific and forced interpretation of the text to me, so agree to disagree to it.

Not exactly contradicting per say. However, sure, its true that we'll just agree to disagree in the end.

couldn't quite get what you mean here, may i ask you to elucidate?

I think they're saying that Rimuru was the first to travel back in time according to the author, and that Chloe is shifting worldlines

Pretty much what Exo said. Though to add more, it's that Time is a one-way street (past to future) and Rimuru in chapter 248 was the very first to break that rule. Which means Chloe (who time travelled before) is absolutely not travelling in the same world-line and that's already something the author said in the author note of chapter 125; Chloe moved between world-lines.

Wait i must have overlooked it but, range of Time manp is not Low 2-C or Universal+ but just Universal. If you look at range page it says:

Ah, Mb
I'll remove that argument from the OP. Though the rest remains the same.

Okay, you do see how these two statements are a bit contradictory right? How is something outside All Time, both beyond time but also swallowed by the space-time continuum?

It's pretty much a "got swallowed by the entire continuum and thrown out" like the analogy @Ciel_Trinity439 used. Space and All of Time stretch infinitely below at Rimuru, swallowing him (along with all his clones), and because the repulsive force tries to get back everything to normal, the framework breaks and Rimuru's sent beyond time.

Yeah, so this is a bit of a problem. You see, a hypertimeline only makes sense if the temporal axes have unique points of origin, that is, a hypertimeline must have a different point of origin to a regular universe or multiverse or in this case a world-line. This is one of the best ways to prove the flow of time is orthogonal to the regular multiverse.

This is one of the ways to prove a hypertimeline, but not a set requirement for all cases that they HAVE to prove unless in the presence of contradictory evidence.

Now to prove unique origins of time, it's true that time traveling within the world-line and also time traveling to other world-lines does depict a time-like progression of said world-lines however, this is only true if you always use the same ability in both cases of time travel. If they're different abilities (you didn't really clarify it here so this is confusing), then it's not really evidence. If they're different abilities, then you'd need other more explicit evidence to show that this new ability only works for traveling through the hypertimeline (which is obviously very hard to do because few fictional works ever use the term itself let alone using it properly in this context). If they were the same time travel ability, then it'd be very good evidence.

I'm pretty sure I made it clear that Chloe is using the skill <Time Traveler> and later its evolution <Yog Sothoth>. These are the specific abilities being used. I need to edit the OP a bit since I found something more useful in my last reply to Vietthai, but essentially the difference between both is that the first one doesn't let you remember events of the future (other world-line) while the latter does let you do that.

This just implies a different space-time altogether. It's very common for fiction to use places that are "outside of time/space-time" but often it still has both space and time. This isn't really good evidence for an orthogonal axis of time.

It could be another space-time yes, and I didn't say the thing "outside all-time" doesn't have time or space. Just that they are higher notions, such as hypertimeline and hyperspace (insignificant untierable 5D space that continuums are embedded in per our standards).

Still, the fact that the outer space-time is "different" is also a supporting evidence for hypertimeline, especially when this outer one is supposed to contain the normal one (they were sent outside the continuum yet were still inside the world)

I'm.... not sure what this really means. The range is Low 2-C, sure, but you don't really need to rely on the mechanics of time stop to prove that.

Ignore this argument since it seems the default range we use for Time travel was universal (3-A), not Low 2-C (Universal+). Reiner pointed it out earlier

This doesn't really mean much, the terms super/hyper are rarely if ever used in the context of a supertimeline/hypertime.

And in this case they are used in context to an attack that's supposed to send you outside conventional space-time...

No, it very much is possible and barring the resolution of the issues that I pointed out it seems to be that the people who called it "parallel" time were pretty much right. You need something to prove that the hypertimeline moves perpendicular to the direction of the normal time here, not parallel to.

And that's what I did below... why is bro quoting the introduction of the topic on previous comments as an argument...?

No, this is patently false. Why? Look no further.

Here, the "Time X" ends before Time Y yet neither are perpendicular or orthogonal to one another DESPITE clearly being different axes of time themselves. You seem to misunderstand this part. Being different axes of time alone isn't enough, they must flow in different directions in which case they're not here, but this still satisfies your analogy here.

This image is essentially mathematically inconsistent as both infinities are equally infinite, they should not "end before or after one another", the >< symbol are there at the end of each for a reason lol

I did not say just being different axis is the reason. I said its because one "time" ends before another, despite both being, well, infinite. That can only be if both are ortohonal, and you haven't proven otherwise so far (since you completely misunderstood the argument).

This right here an issue. An orthogonal flow of time doesn't necessitate that there's any difference of "time" between the two axes (of course, having a difference isn't a dealbreaker either, but it's not what I'd call a plus point either) You're thinking of time as two lines on a cartesian plane forming an acute angle with a different rate of change for them w.r.t to the "X-axis" here (which is unironically what you say in your very next paragraph) but it just doesn't like that with time. Time traveling to a different world-line whether to the same point in time or a point in time slightly ahead (within the new world-line compared to the point in time you left from in the previous world-line) are both equally valid to be sure (at least if the same technique is employed) but a mere difference in time alone just isn't sufficient like I said earlier.

Uh.... the flow of time refers to the direction of time (events). One example being past -> future.

And once again, you aren't exaclty understanding the analogy here. I didn't say "a mere difference in time is sufficient" but "an infinite difference in time is". I'd be happy if you didn't ignore the keywords...

No, they do NOT have the same direction. The horizontal line can be a worldline, the line at an acute angle would be the hypertimeline in this case. The purpose of this hypertimeline is to create an uncountably infinite number of 4D world-lines which is what gets you Low 1-C, similar to how a 4D world-line creates an uncountably infinite number of 3D "slices" of a universe, giving you Low 2-C. It HAS to flow in a different direction to be able to do this and it's also why it has a different point of origin to your normal world-line (unlike what this picture depicts) because it's creating (originating) a new world-line every instance of its passing, giving them different origins (in this diagrams case, imagine drawing more horizontal lines parallel to the original one, that is what's supposed to be happening here).

Nope, since the direction of the line is still left to right, that image is not about a hypertimeline. Besides, an accute angle can't be a Low 1-C hypertimeline as orthogonality is only achieved at 90 degrees (that's literally what orthogonality is lol)

Well yes, that's the difference between traveling across a normal timeline and a hypertimeline. And yes, both images would technically work as a depiction of a hypertimeline structure, but the main evidence that you provided just isn't there and showing that a difference in time (like with the argument) is not a disqualifier isn't really a positive argument for you because we already know it doesn't have to be EXACTLY a 90 degree orthogonal difference for this to work.

Uh, no... if it isn't at 90 degrees it won't be orthogonal and resultantly won't extent in an entirely different direction. A non-orthogonal difference becomes insignificant if the line is infinite.

Orthogonality is REQUIRED for Low 1-C and hypertimelines
Otherwise it just ends up as a different timeline with a non-orthogonal different flow of time (slightly tilted direction but not orthogonal).

BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

They have different temporal flow rates which is different from a temporal axis. Bleach does not have a hyper timeline. In context the time flow of the Dangai is forwards-backwards and not orthogonal, which is needed for that Low 1-C rating. Having said that the Dangai itself is still probably...

vsbattles.com

You're still lacking that fundamental piece of evidence to prove that these axes have different points of origin and aren't just parallel in nature AND that one embeds the other creating an uncountably infinite instances of it (or in simpler worlds, a time-like progression).

Refer to what I said above
I don't think you understand the time dimension standards here lol
Well, that's normal since you're new... I'd suggest spending a bit of time surfing the forum :d

Uh.... this is not how it works. The dimension separating two or more universes is ALWAYS spatial in nature, that's how dimensions work.

I did not say otherwise...
I said there's a higher time dimension overarching even that spatial dimension lol

Its just that the spatial one is not tierable since its not infinite or universal in size.

This part of my argument for orthogonality was; Since we by default assume spatial dimensions are orthogonal (unless stated otherwise), a "time" dimension overarching that hyperspace would have to be orthogonal (hypertimeline) as well since you can't have 4D time flowing over 5D hyperspace, insignificant or not.

Time is always infinite,

I did not say otherwise

you did not however prove that it's both simultaneously "higher/embeds other space-times" and that it's orthogonal.

Refer to what I said a bit above.

• There's time beyond infinite time/all time.
• There's time outside the continuum.
• There's time that allows you to travel between timelines using very specific abilities.
• Those abilities cannot go to the past of the same timeline since time is a one-way street.
• However, they can go to different timelines as going to, let's say, another street, is not the same as going back in the same street

Past*

But we also have ciel stating directly that the world hasnt collapse which is the opposite of what WOG is implying here.

Ciel said the world did not collapse when they were transferred outside, not "where they arrived" (the particular phrase that's in the WoG).
This is the world they arrived at:

《Yes. In this world, the flow of time has stopped. The spread of space had ceased as well, and in accordance with the Law of Entropy, this world has arrived at nothingness.》

Has arrived? You are talking as if you have watched it?

《That’s right. We were hurled to beyond space and time due to Yuuki’s attack. The lifespan of the planet has already ended a long time ago, but the collapse of the world hasn’t yet been reached. From that I deduced, Yuuki probably couldn’t destroy the world itself yet. When he was at the phase where he destroyed the celestial bodies as well as the space-time continuum, I presume that Yuuki’s lifespan had come to an end. However, I can’t judge whether his wish was fulfilled or not. After that, we wandered around as we drifted in the space and I witnessed the end of this universe.》
Chapter 248

Beyond Time and Space, and End of Time and Space, are two different things. At EoST the World/Universe had already ended. Where it did not end though, was BST.

Next, just because you hyperfocus on one piece of the line, doesnt mean that correlates with anything about the past itself. WOG didnt mention anything about the past, theres no reason to assert that is the case, is all im saying.

He did not directly mention the past, does not mean he did not imply retroactive erasure or time travel (confirmed events are specifically things used in Chloe's time travel).

"Up to that point" is referring to the world not being collapsed and still in normal operation while WOG is stating it's supposed to be a place the is collapsed and there is no future beyond that.

Not "beyond that" but that the future Rimuru was supposed to arrive at (inside the world where it hadn't destroyed but yuuki had destroyed the continuum) no longer exists after he reached EoST. Why? Because the world does not exist.

Also want to point out, time still exists at that point;

So there's no reason/evidence to assert the past equally doesnt exist. You're only putting that there in order to further your initial arguments and premise, which im saying is misleading. Leave the quote as is, quote is as its stated, dont add words of your own

I did not add words to the quote, I added my interpretation to the quote. What's magically wrong with that now?

End of the day, let the quote/scan speak for itself instead of adding your own context which can mislead people.

If people can read the scans and understand it, there's no reason to assume a user's own interpretation will "mislead" them if the quote doesn't follow that interpretation. lol

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

This matter won’t be resolved until @Qawsedf234 comes. Hmm.

 

[Nonynho]

This matter won’t be resolved until @Qawsedf234 comes. Hmm.

ngl i dream that he'll be the first mod to agree with us instead of the nail in the coffin

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

ngl i dream that he'll be the first mod to agree with us instead of the nail in the coffin

I hope so..

 

[Lycoris4812]

We need a single comment with all the arguments and counters so that staff may easily navigate everything. @Astral_Trinity439

 

[Mbpoops]

So 3 staff have disagreed right?

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

So 3 staff have disagreed right?

2
Vote tally

Agree:
Disagree:@Reiner02 @Vietthai96
Neutral:

 

[Mbpoops]

And phoenks dont count cause hes not a vbw staff

 

[Vesxpura]

Uh, no... if it isn't at 90 degrees it won't be orthogonal and resultantly won't extent in an entirely different direction. A non-orthogonal difference becomes insignificant if the line is infinite.

Orthogonality is REQUIRED for Low 1-C and hypertimelines
Otherwise it just ends up as a different timeline with a non-orthogonal different flow of time (slightly tilted direction but not orthogonal).

are you trying to say it needs to be physically perpendicular? or otherwise.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

are you trying to say it needs to be physically perpendicular? or otherwise.

For low 1-C to be valid?
Yes, that is the standard here
That's what Qawsedf said in the linked post

 

[Vesxpura]

For low 1-C to be valid?
Yes, that is the standard here
That's what Qawsedf said in the linked post

Going by the already accepted hypertimeline of db, physical perpendicularity isnt an necessity. since it states that conventional spatial orthogonality isnt whats being applied in reference to temporal orthogonality.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Going by the already accepted hypertimeline of db, physically perpendicularity isnt an necessity. since it states that conventional spatial orthogonality isnt whats being applied in reference to temporal orthogonality.

Iirc their orthogonality was proven by having snapshots of before and after states of timeline destruction

So it doesn't go against what I said tbh. And then again, I'm merely quoting the most knowledgeable staff on temporal Dimensions standards that I know ¯⁠\⁠⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠⁠/⁠¯

 

[Vesxpura]

Iirc their orthogonality was proven by having snapshots of before and after states of timeline destruction

So it doesn't go against what I said tbh. And then again, I'm merely quoting the most knowledgeable staff on temporal Dimensions standards that I know ¯⁠\⁠⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠⁠/⁠¯

So you agree physical perpendicularity is not actually a standard for a hypertimeline, also i dont know how you came to the conclusion he was referring to the spatial sense of perpedicularity.

fyi while yes it might have been(im not too sure myself). the main point is, the userblog that justifies that tier explains hypertemporality hence why im using it as an authority.
Also this point seems completely irrelevant since orthogonality isnt that much of a standard in the first place, its atbest supporting evidence and isnt even required if you can prove the prior standard to it.

 

[Nonynho]

¯⁠\⁠⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠⁠/⁠¯

Astral, mate

Please repost that summary you sent to Ant in page 3 i think when he tagged some people

 

[Nexus_Ratiocination]

Your Fandom wiki username and your VSBW Forum username are required to be identical, so you need to change your Fandom wiki username first and then ask me or another bureaucrat to update your account username here to become identical.

However, you are only allowed to change your Fandom username one single time, so you have to be very careful while doing so.

i tried to change my username on the fandom itself ... but i failed to know how (or maybe i cant change it idk tbh).
is not there anything here that explains how to use this wiki anyways?

 

[Nonynho]

i tried to change my username on the fandom itself ... but i failed to know how (or maybe i cant change it idk tbh).
is not there anything here that explains how to use this wiki anyways?

Please reach Ant's wall, it's derailing a bit more this thread that already had a bit of issue with it