Deltarune Speed Downgrate CRT

[Colgato]

Magic becomes a disqualifier the moment it becomes convenient, clearly. Only in UTDR attacks being magic somehow means that they're far weaker than the irl counterpart, in every other game this argument never arises. Wonder why!

Goomba falacy, I'd probably argue the same things i am if i was invested in arguing about powerscaling for any other game.

 

[Comiphorous]

Yeah spamton's soundwaves are probably not real sound, they're magic and don't adhere to the properties of sound. They're magic-sound attacks. They dont even bounce off the walls. Thats magic.

But they come from a real phone that spamton actually has, so now your arguing that the real phone that spamton has is now somehow creating fake soundwaves that are slower, but he can still receive calls from it as if it were real soundwaves.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Because that calls into question the idea that it moves at the same speed as real light

Why would this be called into question when the only established difference is that its magic based?

when we see it moving slower than real light and it's a wild illogical leap to make to say that all of deltarune is slowed down because of one fight with a zapper.

So let me ask you a question rq, do you think kris, ralsei, susie and everyone else in the verse is a normal human being?

Do you think the mysterious time controlling entity that oversees the events of the game is a normal human being?

 

[Colgato]

Goomba falacy, I'd probably argue the same things i am if i was invested in arguing about powerscaling for any other game.

Also I'm not saying the attacks are weaker, if they're shown to be strong i'll agree with them being strong, i'm saying they're slower than light because they're shown to be slower than light.

 

[Comiphorous]

Also I'm not saying the attacks are weaker, if they're shown to be strong i'll agree with them being strong, i'm saying they're slower than light because they're shown to be slower than light.

besides that time they dodged light, but yeah if you ignore the time they did that you can say that.

 

[Colgato]

But they come from a real phone that spamton actually has, so now your arguing that the real phone that spamton has is now somehow creating fake soundwaves that are slower, but he can still receive calls from it as if it were real soundwaves.

Anything that is like solid white in deltarune seems to be made of magic bullet material stuff, yeah. And Spamton can make magic attacks with weapons (that includes phones) because you can do that with weapons in the deltarune verse.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah spamton's soundwaves are probably not real sound, they're magic and don't adhere to the properties of sound. They're magic-sound attacks.

Then bro you have to downgrade ALL of UTDR because it all relies on magic attacks that are visible to us because of them being "slow" lol. Also he directly says they come from phones, so...

They dont even bounce off the walls.

The "walls" in question are literally just a battle box, a gameplay thing. Like I know I argued that for Zapper, but the "walls" shouldn't be used for neither positive nor negative evidence.

Also lil bro keeps ducking the Immeasurable speed point, though I think it's pretty obvious that if we apply this mentality, Infinite or Immeasurable speed characters cannot exist because how are we supposed to accurately decipt those?

 

[Colgato]

besides that time they dodged light, but yeah if you ignore the time they did that you can say that.

They dodged non-lightspeed light. Nothing indicates time was slowed down for the zapper fight. It's as absurd as saying "actually we DO see it moving lightspeed but everything is really big and light years apart so it takes longer for the light to travel across the battleboard" because there's nothing indicating that to be the case.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Magic becomes a disqualifier the moment it becomes convenient, clearly.

thats usually the case when you have instances of more complex magic systems that do more than just serve as an alterior form of energy and venture into the realm of make-believe (for example marvel magic has like a ton of stuff to it that makes it abstract in nature)

In this case though, outside of serving as another form of energy, there isn't a reason to assume magic is a disqualifier

 

[Colgato]

Then bro you have to downgrade ALL of UTDR because it all relies on magic attacks that are visible to us because of them being "slow" lol. Also he directly says they come from phones, so...

The "walls" in question are literally just a battle box, a gameplay thing. Like I know I argued that for Zapper, but the "walls" shouldn't be used for neither positive nor negative evidence.

Also lil bro keeps ducking the Immeasurable speed point, though I think it's pretty obvious that if we apply this mentality, Infinite or Immeasurable speed characters cannot exist because how are we supposed to accurately decipt those?

You can accurately depict infinite speed characters by having them be stated to be infinite or immeasurable speed and shown to be able to move any distance in any amount of time i really dont see the issue

 

[Delusionaltx2]

You can accurately depict infinite speed characters by having them be stated to be infinite or immeasurable speed and shown to be able to move any distance in any amount of time i really dont see the issue

no because by your logic this is contradicted by us being able to see them move and therefore they would be viewed as "slow"

 

[DaReaperMan]

You can accurately depict infinite speed characters by having them be stated to be infinite or immeasurable speed and shown to be able to move any distance in any amount of time i really dont see the issue

We can see them though

 

[Colgato]

thats usually the case when you have instances of more complex magic systems that do more than just serve as an alterior form of energy and venture into the realm of make-believe (for example marvel magic has like a ton of stuff to it that makes it abstract in nature)

In this case though, outside of serving as another form of energy, there isn't a reason to assume magic is a disqualifier

We can assume magic is a disqualifier because the magic attacks in Deltarune don't act like the actual things they represent.

 

[StrymULTRA]

You can accurately depict infinite speed characters by having them be stated to be infinite or immeasurable speed and shown to be able to move any distance in any amount of time i really dont see the issue

Yeah but they'll never be able to accurately display on-screen such speed because they're completely beyond any possible measurable metric, a story would literally end in 0 seconds on-screen if they're this fast in literal portrayal.

Also, there are statements for Zapper's beams being infrared, why is that suddenly an argument here, didn't you say prior that statements don't matter if they don't move "really fast" on-screen?

 

[Colgato]

no because by your logic this is contradicted by us being able to see them move and therefore they would be viewed as "slow"

If you can see them despite it being stated they're FTL, then its reasonable to assume there's cinematic time going on. That's not the case here, as there is reasonable doubt that these lasers are FTL when that is inconsistent with the rest of the game.

 

[StrymULTRA]

If you can see them despite it being stated they're FTL, then its reasonable to assume there's cinematic time going on.

But even then, we have two statements inting that the thing uses infrared rays, which are, you know, light. There is also the fact that there are no real contradictions to the thing behaving realistically, as it goes in a straight way, it bounces off walls like the real ones do, and comes from a remoter. It being magic means nothing.

Are serious rn

 

[Delusionaltx2]

We can assume magic is a disqualifier because the magic attacks in Deltarune don't act like the actual things they represent.

From a general setting sure some attacks may be different but to my knoweldge we don't have any CRTS that just say "any and all magic attacks in delterune can and will always be attributed to IRL" so it would just be a case-by-case scenerio

in this case you would have to prove the magic changes the light to such a degree it basically can't be real light

 

[Colgato]

Yeah but they'll never be able to accurately display on-screen such speed because they're completely beyond any possible measurable metric, a story would literally end in 0 seconds on-screen if they're this fast in literal portrayal.

Also, there are statements for Zapper's beams being infrared, why is that suddenly an argument here, didn't you say prior that statements don't matter if they don't move "really fast" on-screen?

I never said statements don't matter? I just assumed that its obvious that when i say magic light that includes infared. its a magical form of infared light, i just didnt specify the infared part cause that's irrelevant.

 

[Comiphorous]

If you can see them despite it being stated they're FTL, then its reasonable to assume there's cinematic time going on. That's not the case here, as there is reasonable doubt that these lasers are FTL when that is inconsistent with the rest of the game.

The "inconsistencies" you speak of are only there because whenever the deltawarriors are attacked by light, sound, or anything by that matter all of these things just happen to stop working like their real world counterparts according to you.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Ah, it's a classic! Shift goalposts repeatedly until you get the result you want!

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Styrm; also. If you want to "Appeal to reality", you do realize that the Zapper attacks are just EMR waves generated from television remotes; aka a 100% RL source of light that end up being weaponized when they reach the screen. It's basically an ohmage to the NES Zapper or Super Scope. While I can understand character's reacting to them as possibly being different, the zappers themselves are easily actual beams of light.

 

[Colgato]

From a general setting sure some attacks may be different but to my knoweldge we don't have any CRTS that just say "any and all magic attacks in delterune can and will always be attributed to IRL" so it would just be a case-by-case scenerio

in this case you would have to prove the magic changes the light to such a degree it basically can't be real light

It can't be assumed that it behaves like real light because it moves at a rate that is inconsistent with real light with no indication of cinematic time, and it increases in size based on the in-game volume.

 

[StrymULTRA]

i just didnt specify the infared part cause that's irrelevant.

Why would it be irrelevant when it's literally a key component of the feat!? Zapper is literally a TV remote, it using literal infrared beams is a part of its characters because that's how remotes work in the first place. There's literally nothing saying it's fundamentally different besides "lol magic", but that means nothing unless Noelle's ice is not ice despite it literally insta-freezing shit.

 

[Colgato]

Why would it be irrelevant when it's literally a key component of the feat!? Zapper is literally a TV remote, it using literal infrared beams is a part of its characters because that's how remotes work in the first place. There's literally nothing saying it's fundamentally different besides "lol magic", but that means nothing unless Noelle's ice is not ice despite it literally insta-freezing shit.

Ice in real life also doesn't instantly freeze shit into a perfect ******* crystal yeah her ice is magical ice obviously it can be assumed to have magical properties

 

[Delusionaltx2]

It can't be assumed that it behaves like real light because it moves at a rate that is inconsistent with real light with no indication of cinematic time,

To quote the cinematic time page; cinematic time by definition is this

"Cinematic time is the term used to refer to time as it is depicted on-screen in an audio-visual work."

Anything on screen happening at the rate it appears on screen counts as cinematic time

and it increases in size based on the in-game volume.

how does this deny it being real light?

this can basically be attributed as "it's light, but it reacts differently when in the presence of sound"

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ice in real life also doesn't instantly freeze shit into a perfect ******* crystal yeah her ice is magical ice obviously it can be assumed to have magical properties

WAIT SO NOELLE'S ICE CAN BE STRONGER THAN REAL ICE, BUT ZAPPER'S LIGHT IS INSTEAD WORSE THAN ACTUAL LIGHT?

What in the double standard

 

[Colgato]

The "inconsistencies" you speak of are only there because whenever the deltawarriors are attacked by light, sound, or anything by that matter all of these things just happen to stop working like their real world counterparts according to you.

we literally SEE the attacks defy the laws of physics why would we asusme attacks abide by the laws of physics when stars are able to bounce off walls and bombs sometimes explode in perfect ******* bomberman crosses instead of actual explosions

 

[Colgato]

WAIT SO NOELLE'S ICE CAN BE STRONGER THAN REAL ICE, BUT ZAPPER'S LIGHT IS INSTEAD WORSE THAN ACTUAL LIGHT?

What in the double standard

That's not a double standard, it's just a fact that happens to benefit one thing and not another.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

we literally SEE the attacks defy the laws of physics why would we asusme attacks abide by the laws of physics when stars are able to bounce off walls and bombs sometimes explode in perfect ******* bomberman crosses instead of actual explosions

again, case by case scenerio

a magic attack in delterune not following the laws of whatever its portrayed to be dosen't mean all magic attacks don't

if you think otherwise you would have to prove it else this is a massive non sequitur

 

[StrymULTRA]

That's not a double standard, it's just a fact that happens to benefit one thing and not another.

Huh... no, if you wanna argue that a thing is worse than the real counterpart because lolmagic, then apply that to everything, not just when it's convenient. That is called cherry picking.

 

[Colgato]

To quote the cinematic time page; cinematic time by definition is this

"Cinematic time is the term used to refer to time as it is depicted on-screen in an audio-visual work."

Anything on screen happening at the rate it appears on screen counts as cinematic time

how does this deny it being real light?

this can basically be attributed as "it's light, but it reacts differently when in the presence of sound"

If it reacts differently when in the presence of sound then it is not real light therefore we cannot assume it inherets all the properties of real light.

 

[Colgato]

Huh... no, if you wanna argue that a thing is worse than the real counterpart because lolmagic, then apply that to everything, not just when it's convenient. That is called cherry picking.

I'm arguing that things are DIFFERENT from the real counterpart because they have magical properties, not that that makes then inherently worse or inherently better. Noelle's ice is shown as stronger than real life ice, that is in the game, and zapper lasers are slower than real lasers, but they are probably stronger than real infared light considering they are magic and do damage. pointing a tv remote at someone wont do that much damage in real life. Magic isn't worse or better, it's just different.

 

[Qurbonboev]

If you can see them despite it being stated they're FTL, then its reasonable to assume there's cinematic time going on.

Again, "you" and "us" in Deltarune are time gods, that canonically view everything that happens from above. Seeing FTL isn't impossible task to us, even without immeasurable speed

 

[Ruby_R_Dracula]

mhm ts shit funny.

 

[Colgato]

Again, "you" and "us" in Deltarune are time gods, that canonically view everything that happens from above. Seeing FTL isn't impossible task to us, even without immeasurable speed

Nothing indicates that the entire game is moving FTL besides the zapper fight and I'd argue that's an outlier and not enough for FTL speed considering we can't determine whether or not these lasers actually behave like regular lasers considering they have properties inconsistent with real life lasers, especially the type you'd get from a remote.

 

[StrymULTRA]

If it reacts differently when in the presence of sound then it is not real light therefore we cannot assume it inherets all the properties of real light.

That stuff is literally not a disqualifier in our page:

Furthermore, there are a few criteria which show that a beam is not behaving like realistic light:

• The beam is shown to move at different speeds in the same material.
• The beam curves through the air or otherwise doesn't travel in straight lines (with the exception of realistic refraction or deflection).
• The beam primarily deals damage by means other than heating materials that absorb it.
  
  • A laser may cause explosions, but only if it rapidly vaporizes some matter, meaning that the target needs to be partially destroyed in the process.
• The beam is tangible and can be interacted with physically by normal humans, as if it was a solid, liquid or gas. It shouldn't disperse when being hit as a substance would, and should not be redirectable without using a mechanism like refraction.
  
  • While a laser can in theory push things, through radiation pressure or by causing explosions when vaporizing part of an object, those are niche circumstances and generally a laser should not primarily push things away like a physical projectile would.

Zapper's beam does none of this. Plus the thing is just a pun for volume meaning both size and sound here, and the beam becomes bigger because it increases the volume (also because I don't remember it emitting any sound in-game).

Like, do we treat any character being able to enlarge their light beams a contradiction to SoL?

and zapper lasers are slower than real lasers

Cinematic time, by your own words.

Magic isn't worse or better, it's just different.

And we treat magic as the same as the irl counterpart unless there's a drastic contradiction, but there's not here. We do not treat Flowey's light as SoL because of the contradiction of it being able to physically stop and knock on Napstablook's door, but there's is no such contradiction here because "it's too slow on-screen".

 

[Delusionaltx2]

If it reacts differently when in the presence of sound then it is not real light therefore we cannot assume it inherets all the properties of real light.

But the established difference isn't a factor that contradicts it having the properies of light

By your own admission, light that turns stuff to broccoli can still be attributed as real light by virtue of the only difference being the fact that it turns stuff to brocolli

No, because you've established that the only difference is the fact it turns stuff into brocolli, just like how the difference between the zapper's light and normal light is the speed at which they move.

if the only difference here is that it reacts to sound then wheres the contradiction?

 

[Colgato]

That stuff is literally not a disqualifier in our page:

Furthermore, there are a few criteria which show that a beam is not behaving like realistic light:

• The beam is shown to move at different speeds in the same material.
• The beam curves through the air or otherwise doesn't travel in straight lines (with the exception of realistic refraction or deflection).
  • A laser may cause explosions, but only if it rapidly vaporizes some matter, meaning that the target needs to be partially destroyed in the process.

Zapper's beam does none of this. Plus the thing is just a pun for volume meaning both size and sound here, and the beam becomes bigger because it increases the volume (also because I don't remember it emitting any sound in-game).

Like, do we treat any character being able to enlarge their light beams a contradiction to SoL?

Cinematic time, by your own words.

And we treat magic as the same as the irl counterpart unless there's a drastic contradiction, but there's not here. We do not treat Flowey's light as SoL because of the contradiction of it being able to physically stop and knock on Napstablook's door, but there's is no such contradiction here because "it's too slow on-screen".

In my own words i said nothing indicates this fight is occurring in cinematic time. Floweys light and zapper light are both magic, they both don't abide by physics. Zapper light turns either red or blue after bouncing off a green surface. If it was real life, it'd turn green because green things reflect green light and absorb all other colors. I consider this a drastic enough contradiction given the stakes at play (FTL speed)

 

[Qurbonboev]

Nothing indicates that the entire game is moving FTL besides the zapper fight and I'd argue that's an outlier and not enough for FTL speed considering we can't determine whether or not these lasers actually behave like regular lasers considering they have properties inconsistent with real life lasers, especially the type yopu'd get from a remote.

It being outlier would have been legit argument, but there is Jackenstein feat that gives it consistency

 

[Colgato]

But the established difference isn't a factor that contradicts it having the properies of light

By your own admission, light that turns stuff to broccoli can still be attributed as real light by virtue of the only difference being the fact that it turns stuff to brocolli

if the only difference here is that it reacts to sound then wheres the contradiction?

The difference is that it moves slower than real light with no indication that we are seeing things slowed down, no cool slowmo sound effect or anything.