A Wild Last Boss Appeared Discussion Thread

[Enter_Bluey]

Deadass my imgur aint working for week so cant view scan

The infamous sad furry dog...

 

[DeMarigny'sClock]

Goddess Alovenus Additions

I'm not the brightest when it comes to vsbw but from what I can tell, Alovenus should have AE type 1 and not 2 (as it frantically makes no sense for her)

Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.

Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it.

Alovenus is a being who exists in the Final Point, a place devoid of any and all concepts/laws/providence/limits/space/time/size etc. It would make sense for Alovenus to be nonexistent there as well but that Alovenus we know of is a manifestation of her own will (setting) (screw logic, I'll have a metaphysical body in a place where nothing exists, because yes). Remember Alovenus before ascending to godhood tried killing herself by burning herself alive, her physical body got cooked (literally) but her consciousness remained, meaning Alovenus would and could have existed as a thought/concept without any body for as long as she wants until she creates a new vessel.

If Alovenus were tied to an external abstraction then that abstraction would function as a higher governing principle over her existence. That would mean her identity and/or resurrection/regeneration is contingent on something other than herself, which directly contradicts her portrayal in the series as Alovenus is a self-defining concept. She would not merely embody or represent an abstraction, instead she would be the abstraction itself. So to sum the problem I have with type 2 up is that it essentially assumes Alovenus is distinct from the abstraction and any potential regeneration would depend on an external concept that isn't Alovenus. Erasing her from existence or even erasing all historical/causal or conceptual traces (in the case of type 2, it would include the abstraction she embodies as well) of her does not kill her because again her existence is basically immutable, even she can't kill herself. And even if you were to successfully use her powers to make her disappear for a little while, she'll just return. ~~I don't think I would be crazy to say the setting (yes the thing that appears to be an ability) in the way it works is inseparable from who the god is and an external manifestation of a god’s nature.~~ Then again if you have shit like that how can you be contingent on a random abstraction, that is to be found nowhere else in the Final Point btw.

Because of this I don't think she fits AE 2. I could go deeper into this if needed. Also she'd have AE 1 with "type" thought and/or concept. Feel free to point out and correct me if I'm missing the point of the different types of AE.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Tbh, you have a point with some of this. She was a manifestation as a human, but shed the form as a God. So she's not manifested as a human anymore in the endpoint. Thing is she is still using that power and has a human shape

She is the impossible though, and using her power of mana extends this. While she was AE2 as an avatar, it may be somewhat different in her Goddess key. As long as her power is there she can overlay settings and do anything she wants, including come back even if she is erased completely.

Unless we are saying, for type 1 that is, the human manifestation was like an avatar created by the power, and as she ascended she completely assimilated with that power or something. And as an avatar she represented it, in her true form she actually became it. OR the power was always there, which is herself, before and after creation, alovenus manifested later because of it. Thing is that would still be AE2 I think

I feel like type 2 can still work however, as even in the endpoint she directly uses the power in ways that make herself unkillable, and the others draw from that power.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

So I've edited in a potential type 1 reasoning, tho I'm not sure how it will work. As we know Gods are kind of like blanks that lack aspects, so they Alovenus's power impose stuff on themselves.

So if these things don't exist for them, but Alovenus also is some sort of abstract embodiment, not sure how it would work. Unless that is the only thing that exists, her power, and it can generate all other aspects of settings instead I guess

 

[DeMarigny'sClock]

Tbh, you have a point with some of this. She was a manifestation as a human, but shed the form as a God. So she's not manifested as a human anymore in the endpoint. Thing is she is still using that power and has a human shape

She is the impossible though, and using her power of mana extends this. While she was AE2 as an avatar, it may be somewhat different in her Goddess key. As long as her power is there she can overlay settings and do anything she wants, including come back even if she is erased completely.

Unless we are saying, for type 1 that is, the human manifestation was like an avatar created by the power, and as she ascended she completely assimilated with that power or something. And as an avatar she represented it, in her true form she actually became it. OR the power was always there, which is herself, before and after creation, alovenus manifested later because of it. Thing is that would still be AE2 I think

I feel like type 2 can still work however, as even in the endpoint she directly uses the power in ways that make herself unkillable, and the others draw from that power.

You're making a lot of sense. Though I do feel like I'll need to try and dive deeper into the points I raised and remove any confusion if possible.

I think it is fine that avatars can exist but here's the thing, avatars wouldn't be able to determine said AE type (at least from what I understood).
Both AE2 and AE1 characters can have avatars and losing your human form/body does not change your AE by itself. Essentially the "human" Alovenus being "AE2-like" as an avatar doesn’t actually matter all that much, unless the abstraction she embodied was external to her (and if so, at that point in time it would have made her human avatar be AE2), and her true existence remained distinct from it (already existed in the Final Point or elsewhere).

When you bring up the points of "as long as her power is there she can come back" or "she directly uses the power in the endpoint" or "others draw from that power"
This way of framing it would mean that it implicitly treats her power as an external abstraction or governing principle that isn't her. And I believe this is what causes the confusion and is exactly why it sounds like AE2.

As you said in Awlba Gods are blanks, they lack inherent aspects. All aspects (stats/forms/rules and even identity traits) are imposed via the setting.

So if Alovenus imposes power on herself, uses Settings to define her own existence and has no pre-existing metaphysical structure she draws from (Final Point is nothingness and a white canvas), then "her power" is not an external thing she can tap into and draw power from (unless we are arguing the setting is a separate higher entity that predates Alovenus and is the thing that made Awlba and Alovenus possible in the first place.)

I think I'm sounding like a broken record but I really want to drive this point home. The logic of AE2 is that of
Character ‹ depends on › abstraction.

But with Alovenus, if she's erased and disappears nothing external restores her, what she does instead is reassert herself through the setting and overwrite the current imposed rule/law (that law/rule/limit being from her own setting that others are using against her), thus there can't be any higher power or abstraction that sustains her. AE2 characters can return because the concept still exists. But Alovenus returns because she decides that she exists (while her concept and everything else about her is gone.) This also ties back to the whole "nothing can exist in the Final Point schtick" as her getting erased (in the Final Point) would mean she is just returning to her primal state in which she has no attributes as everything else in the Final Point. In layman's terms she ascended to godhood, she then first interacted with the Final Point and was rendered non-existent but she then grew bored of not existing and rewrote her existence (via the setting) into having a body there.

And those two concepts in my eyes, are not the same thing.

As we know Gods are kind of like blanks that lack aspects, so they Alovenus's power impose stuff on themselves.

I'll go back to this for a bit and summarize my whole point and argument so I don't repeat myself like an idiot. In short yea that description of the gods is correct and is the reason why I believe this would directly contradict AE2 for them because that would again require a defined abstraction that precedes or transcends the gods. But as you said the gods are blanks and have no attributes prior to them imposing any and all laws. So if Alovenus starts as a blank, then defines herself entirely through the setting, and has no metaphysical power source other than herself. Then the only thing that exists fundamentally is her self-definition and it all ultimately collapses back into Alovenus always existing as herself and being her own power as a an all-encompassing singularity (which she is stated to be as well).

Edit: if you're curious here is a general definition of an all-encompassing singularity. "In essence, the all-encompassing singularity in metaphysics is a foundational principle of unity, a unified state of awareness, or an ultimate reality from which everything originates and to which everything is connected."

 

[Enter_Bluey]

You're making a lot of sense. Though I do feel like I'll need to try and dive deeper into the points I raised and remove any confusion if possible.

I think it is fine that avatars can exist but here's the thing, avatars wouldn't be able to determine said AE type (at least from what I understood).
Both AE2 and AE1 characters can have avatars and losing your human form/body does not change your AE by itself. Essentially the "human" Alovenus being "AE2-like" as an avatar doesn’t actually matter all that much, unless the abstraction she embodied was external to her (and if so, at that point in time it would have made her human avatar be AE2), and her true existence remained distinct from it (already existed in the Final Point or elsewhere).

When you bring up the points of "as long as her power is there she can come back" or "she directly uses the power in the endpoint" or "others draw from that power"
This way of framing it would mean that it implicitly treats her power as an external abstraction or governing principle that isn't her. And I believe this is what causes the confusion and is exactly why it sounds like AE2.

As you said in Awlba Gods are blanks, they lack inherent aspects. All aspects (stats/forms/rules and even identity traits) are imposed via the setting.

So if Alovenus imposes power on herself, uses Settings to define her own existence and has no pre-existing metaphysical structure she draws from (Final Point is nothingness and a white canvas), then "her power" is not an external thing she can tap into and draw power from (unless we are arguing the setting is a separate higher entity that predates Alovenus and is the thing that made Awlba and Alovenus possible in the first place.)

I think I'm sounding like a broken record but I really want to drive this point home. The logic of AE2 is that of
Character ‹ depends on › abstraction.

But with Alovenus, if she's erased and disappears nothing external restores her, what she does instead is reassert herself through the setting and overwrite the current imposed rule/law (that law/rule/limit being from her own setting that others are using against her), thus there can't be any higher power or abstraction that sustains her. AE2 characters can return because the concept still exists. But Alovenus returns because she decides that she exists (while her concept and everything else about her is gone.) This also ties back to the whole "nothing can exist in the Final Point schtick" as her getting erased (in the Final Point) would mean she is just returning to her primal state in which she has no attributes as everything else in the Final Point. In layman's terms she ascended to godhood, she then first interacted with the Final Point and was rendered non-existent but she then grew bored of not existing and rewrote her existence (via the setting) into having a body there.

And those two concepts in my eyes, are not the same thing.


I'll go back to this for a bit and summarize my whole point and argument so I don't repeat myself like an idiot. In short yea that description of the gods is correct and is the reason why I believe this would directly contradict AE2 for them because that would again require a defined abstraction that precedes or transcends the gods. But as you said the gods are blanks and have no attributes prior to them imposing any and all laws. So if Alovenus starts as a blank, then defines herself entirely through the setting, and has no metaphysical power source other than herself. Then the only thing that exists fundamentally is her self-definition and it all ultimately collapses back into Alovenus always existing as herself and being her own power as a an all-encompassing singularity (which she is stated to be as well).

Edit: if you're curious here is a general definition of an all-encompassing singularity. "In essence, the all-encompassing singularity in metaphysics is a foundational principle of unity, a unified state of awareness, or an ultimate reality from which everything originates and to which everything is connected."

Interesting. What I gathered is there is no "'external power", just Alovenus herself who exists as a blank template (and makes other Gods who use her power do the same), until she decides to overlay her existence with the true part of her power, settings, which imposes attributes on everything. If these settings are wiped, and even if she is rendered non-existent, it's still like going back to her initial state.

The power we are looking at is Alovenus, "the concept of herself", a singularity who's said to be all encompassing. It's something like "'she exists as this" and then expresses her power through said settings. Ae2 is implying she's drawing power from somewhere.

Only thing us, what would the abstract be? Since no concepts exist. Or perhaps "'alovenus" is the only one. Not sure on this part

 

[Enter_Bluey]

So I found this

Spoiler: Benet feat

"It was the Vampire Princess Benetnasch, fighting the Fire ouroboros. She forced the laws of inertia to quit as she completely changed direction several times, taking impossible courses of movement to continue to attack the Fire ouroboros. She was fighting the embodiment of fire. His internal temperature numbered in the tens of thousands of degrees Celsius."

Is this basically self momentum as well for acrobatics? Ignoring laws like physics and thus inertia become common, so I guess it's nice extra piece of evidence.

 

[DeMarigny'sClock]

Only thing us, what would the abstract be? Since no concepts exist. Or perhaps "'alovenus" is the only one. Not sure on this part

Honestly not sure what's allowed on this wiki when it comes to stuff like this, she doesn't cleanly fall under any of the types such as concept and/or thought. Though an abstraction is a form of existence that is not bound to physical reality and does not require a concrete form to exist, and it doesn't have to be a concept per se.
So maybe it could look something like this "Abstract Existence (Type 1 [Memories, Ideas, Concept [Type 3], Empathic, Philosophies & Spirit];"

But instead for Alovenus
"Abstract Existence (Type 1 [Primordial Void, Source Of Existence, Pre-creation, Nothingness]; Alovenus is a purely abstract and a self-subsisting being whose true nature originates from a primordial void like state predating all laws, concepts, identities and structures. Any and all physical or defined form she exhibits is merely a self-imposed manifestation via Settings and does not constitute her true existence or nature."

Honestly if you have any other ideas for what to use, I'm all ears. The problem is that if I say she is "nothingness" or liken her to a concept such as love, beauty, among other, it would be kinda misleading because she is technically none of those. She is an abstract existence that just can't be likined to anything else. I've seen many profiles where they do have AE type 1 without any further explanation (unless that's wrong then I think that's the strategy.) But we could try and use God physiology as a base though.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Honestly not sure what's allowed on this wiki when it comes to stuff like this, she doesn't cleanly fall under any of the types such as concept and/or thought. Though an abstraction is a form of existence that is not bound to physical reality and does not require a concrete form to exist, and it doesn't have to be a concept per se.
So maybe it could look something like this "Abstract Existence (Type 1 [Memories, Ideas, Concept [Type 3], Empathic, Philosophies & Spirit];"

But instead for Alovenus
"Abstract Existence (Type 1 [Primordial Void, Source Of Existence, Pre-creation, Nothingness]; Alovenus is a purely abstract and a self-subsisting being whose true nature originates from a primordial void like state predating all laws, concepts, identities and structures. Any and all physical or defined form she exhibits is merely a self-imposed manifestation via Settings and does not constitute her true existence or nature."

Honestly if you have any other ideas for what to use, I'm all ears. The problem is that if I say she is "nothingness" or liken her to a concept such as love, beauty, among other, it would be kinda misleading because she is technically none of those. She is an abstract existence that just can't be likined to anything else. I've seen many profiles where they do have AE type 1 without any further explanation (unless that's wrong then I think that's the strategy.) But we could try and use God physiology as a base though.

If we were to point out the aspects, we'd need to explain she is "'the impossible" which is the same as "concept of herself", and all notions that shouldn't exist. So her AE is technically "herself", however I don't think I've seen the term "self defining" used on a profile on this site tbh. Similar to what I suggested for immunity, maybe it could be called "lack of metaphysical aspects" or something, or something like "asepctless existence". Or we just wouldn't point out a specific type, and just explain how her AE works instead in description.

Assuming Type 1 gets the go ahead. We'll see the opinions when I actually post it. The AE would tie into the immunity though so it does connect with God physiology

 

[Enter_Bluey]

So this question probably won't be answered here but like...

Spoiler: Stars

"The Ouroboros of Heaven once again unleashed a torrent of destruction from his mouth. Pegasus swiftly avoided the attack, but this time, the enemy ouroboros moved his head in chase. By doing so, the beam moved with him, and stars that were in the way were swept aside and exploded.
The Ouroboros of Heaven was fully intent on continuing to shoot until he hit in a spectacularly brute-force method. Even the swift Pegasus would likely find it hard to avoid for long enough. However, Orm flew into a rage after seeing his child in danger, and he hit the Ouroboros of Heaven with his own black light of destruction."

I think possibly star level could be changed to flat out with stuff like this right?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Yea, there also statements about planets and stars being destroyed in Ruphas vs Orm.

Just a matter of actually doing a CRT for an upgrade.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Yea, there also statements about planets and stars being destroyed in Ruphas vs Orm.

Just a matter of actually doing a CRT for an upgrade.

There's actually more statements than I thought... Orms attacks, Heaven ouroboros, sanieve also did it.

Orm was also said to have defenses tougher than a star. I think author really wanted to highlight stars here..

(Their range also is interplanetary rn, tho I guess breath attacks should have specifically interstellar). While I think these beams are ofc faster than light, speed wise I don't think any1 dodged besides Pegasus which is said to be sublight speed so...some skill is in play there.

 

[DeMarigny'sClock]

If we were to point out the aspects, we'd need to explain she is "'the impossible" which is the same as "concept of herself", and all notions that shouldn't exist. So her AE is technically "herself", however I don't think I've seen the term "self defining" used on a profile on this site tbh. Similar to what I suggested for immunity, maybe it could be called "lack of metaphysical aspects" or something, or something like "asepctless existence". Or we just wouldn't point out a specific type, and just explain how her AE works instead in description.

Assuming Type 1 gets the go ahead. We'll see the opinions when I actually post it. The AE would tie into the immunity though so it does connect with God physiology

Sounds great

 

[Enter_Bluey]

I suppose ill show the explanation in the evaluation thread and see how it goes

 

[Enter_Bluey]

So it's kindve going as I thought(even though author really wants to stress shes illogical lol). Though if it somehow does become approved, wonder if plot would be considered >> logic and other aspects. May put plot as the bolded points, and the rest as sub points.

Anyway found it funny, so we had a certain meme for this..

 

[A_Fallen_Bread]

I have a question.
Why does Ruphas Level 3000 have immeasurable speed?
Her profile suggested it was because of this feat.
She basically hitting someone at a speed far surpassed the speed of light, to the point the cause and effect seemed to be reversed. Her attacks effectively hitting before the launching actions. But, as far as I know, this result could be achieved by simply moving faster than than the speed of light, no? I know it's not the case for others because most fictions doesn't follow the laws of physics, but AWLBA has mentioned a thing or two that goes according to the laws of physics, like if they move at the speed of light in the world Alovenus comes from, the universe will be collapsed.
And from the scan, it did say she was far surpassed the speed of light, that she had left the light so far, which were already enough to realize the result of hitting before launching attacks.
Lastly, no immeasurable speed has ever been mentioned before. Not when Ruphas Level 3000 fought Benetnasch, when Ruphas level 4200 fought Scorpius, or when Ruphas level 5100 fought Sanieve. Jumping to immeasurable speed because of something that can be achieved by being faster than light seems absurd to me. But there could be some explainations that could justify this, so I have decided to ask.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Settings explanation is absurdly long, though necessary, but way too lazy to insert references for every single scan there.

Though now we don't have to rehash explanations, the way settings work is a higher settings makes a lower one irrelevant, nothing the lower settings can do will harm them, and as evident with Ruphas, a higher setting can literally be infinity^infinity above a lower one, so good luck trying to hax these guys.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Loool yeah it reached a length I considered making it a blog instead. But felt necessary after the I don't see adaptation on Ruphas's profile incident. I think the references lead around the same areas for the most part anyway

Plus their RE kinda breaks the logical way of thinking. "Character is X layers and such above them and can one shot with X hax/speed" and thus should beat them.

But the simple mindset "I'm stronger" and not paying attention to literally anything else flips that around. The result of infinite willpower..

 

[Thanganimator]

Why is Ruphas still tier 1A when Ruphas herself used power from a lower universe to ascend to a higher level of existence, an anti-feat for R>F?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

You are very late to the party, we have had like 2 threads on 1-A.

The universe itself was Alovenus magic, also Ruphas and residents of Midgard all inherited Alovenus power, its why they can defy common sense.

 

[BoastJr]

Thread 'A Wild Last Historian Appeared ! (KLEIN MORETTI VS RUPHAS MAFAHL)'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-wild-last-historian-appeared-klein-moretti-vs-ruphas-mafahl.192156/