PTJ Universe Upgrade

[Pxnd_013]

Based on this accepted calculation, several characters have had their speed upgraded accordingly

The following characters are those whose speed is comparable to lineman , or exceeds that of lineman

Gen 0
Gapyrong Kim
Charles Choi
Jinyoung Park
Tom Lee
Shingen Yamazaki
Manager Kim
Hansoo Seong
Jincheol Park
Samdak

Gen 1

Kitae Kim
Faster than Lineman

James Lee
Faster than Lineman

Gen 1.5

Gun Park
Faster than Lineman

Goo Kim
Faster than Lineman

Gen 2

Daniel Park ( True Body )
Faster than Lineman

Daniel Park ( Perfect Body )
Faster than Lineman

Johan Seong
Faster than Lineman

Jake Kim
He is able to react to Paecheon’s speed better than Lineman

Samuel Seo
The same reasoning applies as with Jake

 

[Reiner04]

Is this speed consistent and don't have considerable amount of anti-feats?

 

[Pxnd_013]

Is this speed consistent and don't have considerable amount of anti-feats?

I apologize, but I am not entirely sure what the anti-feats are. However, I believe there should be no issues

 

[CatLover313]

Is this speed consistent and don't have considerable amount of anti-feats?

Only thing I want to provide is that while Manager Kim (another High Tier) has shown to cut a bullet, Guns can still be seen as threats and even used by Jichang (High Tier) against Elite (Another High Tier) in their fight. Also, the old guy was able to intervene in a previous fight stopping the MC and Jichang from fighting while still not being able to react to the gun. While I do think they're supersonic so they can dodge the occasional bullet, Gun's still seem to be a threat to them. The highest speed calc of the verse is also this right now.

Edit: Also, I have a huge issue on why all those characters scale to Lineman. There's only a few direct characters that actually scale to Lineman, yet he's being scaled to characters that have no direct scaling and could even have possible arguments that Lineman would be far above them as of right now.

 

[Mercury009]

I see several issues. Lineman is a character that specializes in speed and yet I see several characters that are much slower than him whose only reason may be "They are relative to X, by Y, and Z".

Gen 0
Sure, although assumptions, Lineman was taught by a member of this generation whose speed is clearly its main focus. I'd put a label like Possibly/Likely here at best for some of these, although it mostly applies to the old heads still kicking like MK, Samdak, etc.

Gen 1
Here we have a couple of issues. People who dont even have Speed mastery are listed... why? Seokdu? Jichang?

Gen 1.5
Gun and Goo I understand, but Sinu hasn't fought anyone recently that would put him above this level.

Gen 2
Absolutely not. Many of these people never even interacted with current Lineman let alone the people he recently fought. Daniel true body /SB are iffy. I understand maybe using the heat mode / path clause here though. The rest are huge outliers. Vasco gets blitzed by characters vastly weaker than the people that fought Lineman. Same for Hudson. Vin Jin. Jerry hasn't done anything for the past characters.


The list honestly can go on. Could you elaborate on the chainscaling between current Lineman and these people? Bar obvious answers like James Lee who constantly blitzes people, or anyone on par (or above) Pancheon.

 

[Pxnd_013]

Only thing I want to provide is that while Manager Kim (another High Tier) has shown to cut a bullet, Guns can still be seen as threats and even used by Jichang (High Tier) against Elite (Another High Tier) in their fight. Also, the old guy was able to intervene in a previous fight stopping the MC and Jichang from fighting while still not being able to react to the gun. While I do think they're supersonic so they can dodge the occasional bullet, Gun's still seem to be a threat to them. The highest speed calc of the verse is also this right now.

Edit: Also, I have a huge issue on why all those characters scale to Lineman. There's only a few direct characters that actually scale to Lineman, yet he's being scaled to characters that have no direct scaling and could even have possible arguments that Lineman would be far above them as of right now.

May I ask something? At what point was a gun actually considered a threat to Manager Kim?

It is clear that three shots were fired, and only one of them hit Jichang, which implies that the remaining two shots were fired by Jichang himself. Additionally, Elite did not sustain any gunshot wounds, which indicates that he is capable of evading bullets. As for the instance where Jichang failed to dodge the bullet, this was because he was unable to move at the time due to Elite’s attack. One of the injured areas was his foot, and being struck at that point would naturally lead to the outcome Elite described. Therefore, it would be entirely reasonable for Jichang to be unable to evade a bullet under those circumstances

Regarding the old man, it is evident that he only noticed Elite at the last moment, leaving him unable to react in time. Furthermore, Elite was the one who fired the gun, and the act of pulling the trigger would likely have been executed at an exceptionally high speed.

Could you provide examples of individuals you disagree with on this matter?

 

[DivineAura44]

Based on this accepted calculation, several characters have had their speed upgraded accordingly

The following characters are those whose speed is comparable to lineman , or exceeds that of lineman

Gen 0
Gapyrong Kim
Charles Choi
Jinyoung Park
Tom Lee
Shingen Yamazaki
Manager Kim
Hansoo Seong
Jincheol Park
Samdak

Gen 1
Kitae Kim
James Lee
Seongji Yuk
Jichang Kwak
Jaegyon Na
Yujae Seon
Gongseob Ji
Taesoo Ma
Seokdu Wang

Gen 1.5
Gun Park
Goo Kim
Sinu Han

Gen 2
Daniel Park ( True Body )
Daniel Park ( Perfect Body )
Zack Lee
Vasco
Vin Jin
Hudson Ahn
Johan Seong
Jake Kim
Jerry Kwon
Eli Jang
Warren Chae
Mandeok Bang
Yuseong
Ryuhei Kuroda
No.1
Samuel Seo
Taejin Cheon

I don't think all of these characters scale to Lineman in speed. Gen 0 is fine, but Seokdu, Taesoo, and Jichang don't belong. Same with Sinu. Most of these Gen 2's are here on vibes. The Daniels, Johan? Fine. Literally everyone else has zero reason to scale. They don't scale to Paecheon Jo, Daniel, or Goo, the only people we can solidly put above Lineman... why are they here?
Being a bit reasonable
Everyone in Gen 0, Gen 1 (barring Jichang, Taesoo, and Seokdu), Gun, Goo, Daniel, and Johan should scale outright.

The prior mentioned Gen 1s, Sinu, Zack, Sam Seo, and Jake can scale to possibly.

The rest of them are out of luck.

 

[Pxnd_013]

I see several issues. Lineman is a character that specializes in speed and yet I see several characters that are much slower than him whose only reason may be "They are relative to X, by Y, and Z".

Gen 0
Sure, although assumptions, Lineman was taught by a member of this generation whose speed is clearly its main focus. I'd put a label like Possibly/Likely here at best for some of these, although it mostly applies to the old heads still kicking like MK, Samdak, etc.

Gen 1
Here we have a couple of issues. People who dont even have Speed mastery are listed... why? Seokdu? Jichang?

Gen 1.5
Gun and Goo I understand, but Sinu hasn't fought anyone recently that would put him above this level.

Gen 2
Absolutely not. Many of these people never even interacted with current Lineman let alone the people he recently fought. Daniel true body /SB are iffy. I understand maybe using the heat mode / path clause here though. The rest are huge outliers. Vasco gets blitzed by characters vastly weaker than the people that fought Lineman. Same for Hudson. Vin Jin. Jerry hasn't done anything for the past characters.


The list honestly can go on. Could you elaborate on the chainscaling between current Lineman and these people? Bar obvious answers like James Lee who constantly blitzes people, or anyone on par (or above) Pancheon.

If you observe the series carefully, even characters who do not specialize in speed can possess greater speed than those who do

Gen 0
For the most part, I believe there is no issue here, as he should already be stronger than Lineman

Gen 1
As I mentioned above, I can further elaborate on the reasoning. In Jichang’s case, he is a king who is frequently praised for his strength by James Lee, Jinrang, and Baeksang. Additionally, he was able to block attacks from Kitae, who is stated to have speed comparable to Gongseob. Gongseob is clearly a speed specialist, and I doubt you would argue that Lineman is faster than Kitae. As for Seokdu, the explanation is rather straightforward—he has been compared to Daniel Park, who was able to contend with Jichang to a certain extent

Gen 1.5
If you agree with the reasoning I provided for Gen 1, I believe it should be clear how Sinu can scale accordingly

Gen 2
Based on the reasons I have mentioned, you should be able to understand how these characters can scale as well. However, if this is still unclear, I can revise my explanation and provide the full reasoning, although it may take some time. Otherwise, I may go to sleep first

 

[CatLover313]

May I ask something? At what point was a gun actually considered a threat to Manager Kim?

It is clear that three shots were fired, and only one of them hit Jichang, which implies that the remaining two shots were fired by Jichang himself. Additionally, Elite did not sustain any gunshot wounds, which indicates that he is capable of evading bullets. As for the instance where Jichang failed to dodge the bullet, this was because he was unable to move at the time due to Elite’s attack. One of the injured areas was his foot, and being struck at that point would naturally lead to the outcome Elite described. Therefore, it would be entirely reasonable for Jichang to be unable to evade a bullet under those circumstances

Regarding the old man, it is evident that he only noticed Elite at the last moment, leaving him unable to react in time. Furthermore, Elite was the one who fired the gun, and the act of pulling the trigger would likely have been executed at an exceptionally high speed.

Could you provide examples of individuals you disagree with on this matter?

If you looked at the Imgur messages, the first two shots were blanks, giving plenty of time for Charles to just grab the gun. Also, I’m not talking about any anti feat examples in MK. They’re shown to dodge bullets but usually through aim dodging/erratic movements (argued in different CRT’s, not going to bring up past arguments here), it wasn’t until MK cuts the bullet in season 2 that there was a non-aim dodge bullet scene. Just the USAGE of a Jichang, a high tier, trying to use a gun on Charles already signifies that guns can be seen as potential threats. You’re calculation of HHS+ would make guns move in almost slow motion for them as most bullets don’t even reach 1000 m/s especially for the pistol being used in Jichangs hand. So even if the old man was caught off guard and was shown to notice the gun last second, just being able to stop Ui Daniel and Jichang attack would put him close to their speeds and so that bullet even at the range shouldn’t be close to touching him.

Now, for characters who would scale to the feat if it isn’t deemed an outlier would be severely limited in Gen 2. Base Daniel is shown to be above Lineman during his fight against Paecheon, along with Incheon Arc Samuel and Incheon Arc Jake who are shown to have a better performance against Paecheon. Besides Johan who has a path (and path > patches), no other Gen 2 should scale till otherwise shown.

For Gen 1.5, Goo who was able to react to Paecheons attacks with a sword, and Gun who’s comparable to Goo, no one else in Gen 2 should compare. Sinu definitely has no scaling towards anyone till shown otherwise.

For Gen 1, no one really has scaling to Lineman, True Body Daniel, Samuel, and Jake so only kings that are relative to Jaegyeon should scale. For Gen 0, I didn’t mind the scaling that much, someone else can be specific for that.

 

[Pxnd_013]

Okay, it might take some time, but I'll fix it and give more details when I have time. For now, I think I'll go to sleep because I have school in the morning.

 

[CatLover313]

If you looked at the Imgur messages, the first two shots were blanks, giving plenty of time for Charles to just grab the gun. Also, I’m not talking about any anti feat examples in MK. They’re shown to dodge bullets but usually through aim dodging/erratic movements (argued in different CRT’s, not going to bring up past arguments here), it wasn’t until MK cuts the bullet in season 2 that there was a non-aim dodge bullet scene. Just the USAGE of a Jichang, a high tier, trying to use a gun on Charles already signifies that guns can be seen as potential threats. You’re calculation of HHS+ would make guns move in almost slow motion for them as most bullets don’t even reach 1000 m/s especially for the pistol being used in Jichangs hand. So even if the old man was caught off guard and was shown to notice the gun last second, just being able to stop Ui Daniel and Jichang attack would put him close to their speeds and so that bullet even at the range shouldn’t be close to touching him.

Now, for characters who would scale to the feat if it isn’t deemed an outlier would be severely limited in Gen 2. Base Daniel is shown to be above Lineman during his fight against Paecheon, along with Incheon Arc Samuel and Incheon Arc Jake who are shown to have a better performance against Paecheon. Besides Johan who has a path (and path > patches), no other Gen 2 should scale till otherwise shown.

For Gen 1.5, Goo who was able to react to Paecheons attacks with a sword, and Gun who’s comparable to Goo, no one else in Gen 2 should compare. Sinu definitely has no scaling towards anyone till shown otherwise.

For Gen 1, no one really has scaling to Lineman, True Body Daniel, Samuel, and Jake so only kings that are relative to Jaegyeon should scale. For Gen 0, I didn’t mind the scaling that much, someone else can be specific for that.

On another note, I realized this is technically a movement speed calculation and didn’t Lineman have an issue catching up to a Limo? Though this may be disingenuous as it might’ve been a comedic scene.

Also, in the latest MK chapter, didn’t Closer, someone who is relative to Manager Kim (not too informed about MK scaling but that’s what I’ve seen been said), just get shot by Aurora? It hasn’t been translated yet but I’ve seen the raws. Guns might still able to “tag” high tiers after all.

 

[Pxnd_013]

If you looked at the Imgur messages, the first two shots were blanks, giving plenty of time for Charles to just grab the gun. Also, I’m not talking about any anti feat examples in MK. They’re shown to dodge bullets but usually through aim dodging/erratic movements (argued in different CRT’s, not going to bring up past arguments here), it wasn’t until MK cuts the bullet in season 2 that there was a non-aim dodge bullet scene. Just the USAGE of a Jichang, a high tier, trying to use a gun on Charles already signifies that guns can be seen as potential threats. You’re calculation of HHS+ would make guns move in almost slow motion for them as most bullets don’t even reach 1000 m/s especially for the pistol being used in Jichangs hand. So even if the old man was caught off guard and was shown to notice the gun last second, just being able to stop Ui Daniel and Jichang attack would put him close to their speeds and so that bullet even at the range shouldn’t be close to touching him.

Now, for characters who would scale to the feat if it isn’t deemed an outlier would be severely limited in Gen 2. Base Daniel is shown to be above Lineman during his fight against Paecheon, along with Incheon Arc Samuel and Incheon Arc Jake who are shown to have a better performance against Paecheon. Besides Johan who has a path (and path > patches), no other Gen 2 should scale till otherwise shown.

For Gen 1.5, Goo who was able to react to Paecheons attacks with a sword, and Gun who’s comparable to Goo, no one else in Gen 2 should compare. Sinu definitely has no scaling towards anyone till shown otherwise.

For Gen 1, no one really has scaling to Lineman, True Body Daniel, Samuel, and Jake so only kings that are relative to Jaegyeon should scale. For Gen 0, I didn’t mind the scaling that much, someone else can be specific for that.

Okay, I apologize for not noticing earlier, and I understand the part regarding Manager Kim. However, in the case where Jichang intended to use a gun on Charles, I think that cannot really be taken as a valid example. Perhaps it was a mistake by PTJ for not taking into account MK cutting bullets, and there are several cases like this. For instance, Goo vs Jincheol: Jincheol has speed comparable to or possibly greater than MK, yet he still considered using a gun on Goo, who has speed close to his own. It would be very odd for Jincheol to think of using a gun on someone faster than bullets

Charles may have moved the gun close to the old man’s head before firing, or he may have kept some distance and then pulled the trigger. Since there is no panel showing the exact moment Charles fires, it is impossible to determine how he actually shot at the old man

Regarding the characters’ speed, I have revised it and provided further reasoning. What are your thoughts on it now?

On another note, I realized this is technically a movement speed calculation and didn’t Lineman have an issue catching up to a Limo? Though this may be disingenuous as it might’ve been a comedic scene.

Also, in the latest MK chapter, didn’t Closer, someone who is relative to Manager Kim (not too informed about MK scaling but that’s what I’ve seen been said), just get shot by Aurora? It hasn’t been translated yet but I’ve seen the raws. Guns might still able to “tag” high tiers after all.

I think it’s just meant to be a comedic scene

He was able to shoot Closer because he fired from a blind angle

 

[Pxnd_013]

I have explained how several characters can scale to Lineman, but for Gen 0, I don’t think any explanation is necessary since they are all faster than Lineman anyway

 

[DivineAura44]

Now, for characters who would scale to the feat if it isn’t deemed an outlier would be severely limited in Gen 2. Base Daniel is shown to be above Lineman during his fight against Paecheon, along with Incheon Arc Samuel and Incheon Arc Jake who are shown to have a better performance against Paecheon. Besides Johan who has a path (and path > patches), no other Gen 2 should scale till otherwise shown

Tbh I forgot that this feat applies to Base Lineman, and not Lineman at his absolute fastest. Jake and Sam definitely should scale outright if so.

 

[Mercury009]

The problem with the chainscaling is that it's still based largely on assumptions due to the few interactions Lineman and the people who scale to him have. So let's start from the top:

Jichang Kwak
He was able to block attacks from Kitae, whose speed is greater than Lineman’s

As the panel says, "When he's evading an attack, he's as fast as...", this debunks the fact the attacked with the same speed, otherwise he would have tagged him without issue if the speed difference was that steep.

Seokdu Wang
He is on the same level as Daniel Park, who was able to contend with Jichang to a certain extent

The same guy who was beaten by a much weaker variant of Eli, Samuel and Warren should have a speed scaling that's close to the likes of top-tier Kings? That's just a flat-out lie, man.

Sinu Han
He was able to fight both Eli and Warren on his own, while Eli and Warren were capable of contending with Seokdu Wang

Eli Jang
He can fight Seokdu Wang and Sinu, on par with Jake Kim

Warren Chae
He is capable of fighting Seokdu Wang and can react to Sinu’s speed

Jerry Kwon
Comparable to Warren Chae

Mandeok Bang
Comparable to Ryuhei Kuroda

Yuseong
Comparable to Mandeok Bang

Ryuhei Kuroda
He can fight and pursue Sinu

All of these work off the assumption that Seokdu is that fast, which, as I said before, it's not really the case.

Vasco
His speed is not far behind Zack Lee’s

Vin Jin
His speed is not far behind Vasco’s

Hudson Ahn
He is capable of attacking Eli

Even in the last arc, they are shown to hardly keep up with much slower / easy-going Kings. Hudson, especially since he needed to corner a person to even try and defeat them, who was not at a King level at all.

Daniel Park ( Perfect Body )
Faster than Lineman

Small nichè, but this was only true in Heat Mode. In base, he was struggling to keep up with a holding back Jaegyon Na (Chapter 561).

Daniel Park ( True Body )
Faster than Lineman

Small nichè, but this was only true in Heat Mode / Path. In the base, he was struggling to keep up with holding back Yujae Seon (Chapter 564). As further evidence: He was being overwhelmed by Pancheon until he unlocked his path, and then dominated the fight. Although you can make an argument for Instinctive action bypassing the speed difference, but I think it's a fine rating here to be completely honest.

No.1
He has physical strength comparable to Tom Lee. He can blitz Warren, Zack Lee, and Vasco, and his speed is close to Johan, Samuel, Jake, and Eli

Taejin Cheon
Comparable to Vin Jin

Both appeared hundreds of chapters ago and have no current scaling to present characters.

TLDR: A lot of these assumptions are based on characters who fought/interacted a long time ago and have no clear chainscaling with the most recent feats. Therefore, until we have a more comprehensive scaling anyway, the characters I did not point to should be fine to receive the speed upscale. The ones I mentioned shouldn't receive any change.

If you observe the series carefully, even characters who do not specialize in speed can possess greater speed than those who do

That's just PTJ incorrectly scaling people. Vasco goes from tagging high-tier kings (holding back) to being utterly blitzed and requiring Zack's help to defend himself in the last Busan arc, for example. Being relative in-verse does not automatically grant them the same tier of speed as other characters have.

 

[Pxnd_013]

As the panel says, "When he's evading an attack, he's as fast as...", this debunks the fact the attacked with the same speed, otherwise he would have tagged him without issue if the speed difference was that steep.

That may be the case, but the fact remains that Jichang was able to react to Kitae’s speed, which is faster than Lineman’s

The same guy who was beaten by a much weaker variant of Eli, Samuel and Warren should have a speed scaling that's close to the likes of top-tier Kings? That's just a flat-out lie, man.

I do not understand why you believe that only ‘top-tier Kings’ can scale to Lineman. Moreover, this statement comes directly from Jichang, who is well-informed about the Kings. Do you believe that this was a lie?

All of these work off the assumption that Seokdu is that fast, which, as I said before, it's not really the case.

I have already provided additional reasoning above

Even in the last arc, they are shown to hardly keep up with much slower / easy-going Kings. Hudson, especially since he needed to corner a person to even try and defeat them, who was not at a King level at all.

Also, I am not sure which King you are referring to, and do you mean the Busan arc? As I mentioned earlier, I may simply exclude Hudson if necessary

Small nichè, but this was only true in Heat Mode. In base, he was struggling to keep up with a holding back Jaegyon Na (Chapter 561).

Once again, I do not understand why you assume that Lineman must have speed on the level of Jaegyeon Na. Is there any feat or statement that indicates Lineman must be that fast?

Small nichè, but this was only true in Heat Mode / Path. In the base, he was struggling to keep up with holding back Yujae Seon (Chapter 564). As further evidence: He was being overwhelmed by Pancheon until he unlocked his path, and then dominated the fight. Although you can make an argument for Instinctive action bypassing the speed difference, but I think it's a fine rating here to be completely honest.

A serious Lineman was completely unable to do anything against Paecheon, who fought mostly using just one finger and only used all five fingers once (when he stabbed Lineman). In contrast, Base Daniel was able to make Paecheon state that Daniel was not fighting his fingers, but was truly fighting him directly. Therefore, I believe it is clear that Base Daniel can scale to Lineman

Both appeared hundreds of chapters ago and have no current scaling to present characters.

TLDR: A lot of these assumptions are based on characters who fought/interacted a long time ago and have no clear chainscaling with the most recent feats. Therefore, until we have a more comprehensive scaling anyway, the characters I did not point to should be fine to receive the speed upscale. The ones I mentioned shouldn't receive any change.

No.1 possessed physical stats comparable to Tom Lee several years ago. Additionally, if you understand and agree with the scaling presented above based on my reasoning, then No.1 should naturally be able to scale as well. Taejin was able to fight Tom Lee, to the point where Tom Lee stated that he would start getting serious against Taejin. I believe you are aware that Tom Lee and Lineman can be scaled relative to each other

That's just PTJ incorrectly scaling people. Vasco goes from tagging high-tier kings (holding back) to being utterly blitzed and requiring Zack's help to defend himself in the last Busan arc, for example. Being relative in-verse does not automatically grant them the same tier of speed as other characters have.

Of course, some characters are slower than others, but they are still capable of keeping up with one another. For example, if Vasco were to fight Zack, do you really think Vasco would be completely unable to land a hit on Zack? As I have said before, a character not specializing in speed does not automatically mean they are slower than a speed specialist, which I believe should be evident given how often this is shown throughout the series

 

[Dinozxd]

Alright so first of all, the result of this calc is highly inconsistent with the speed ratings as of now. The calc puts Lineman at HHS+ who got demolished off screen by base Pacheon. Daniel, without his Path, performed better aganist base Pacheon and outsped Speed Mastery Pacheon with his Path's emergency counter thing which rn only scales to Supersonic. This means that Lineman is 36x faster than the next highest speed calc of the verse even though he should be far slower than that.

About the calculation itself; It's simply impossible for those guys in the air to not move after getting hit so hard that their face turn into bloody messes through Newton's law of motion.

 

[Pxnd_013]

Alright so first of all, the result of this calc is highly inconsistent with the speed ratings as of now. The calc puts Lineman at HHS+ who got demolished off screen by base Pacheon. Daniel, without his Path, performed better aganist base Pacheon and outsped Speed Mastery Pacheon with his Path's emergency counter thing which rn only scales to Supersonic. This means that Lineman is 36x faster than the next highest speed calc of the verse even though he should be far slower than that.

About the calculation itself; It's simply impossible for those guys in the air to not move after getting hit so hard that their face turn into bloody messes through Newton's law of motion.

I do not understand why you are comparing calculations within the same verse to determine which character is stronger or faster based solely on numerical results, when the concept of scaling clearly exists

That scene exists because PTJ intended to portray Lineman’s speed as being fast enough to strike those individuals while they themselves appear completely motionless. This is entirely normal when depicted from the perspective of someone who is hundreds of times faster. As for the blood, it is most likely just a visual effect. If you have read Lookism, you should be well aware that there are many instances where characters are shown bleeding heavily after being attacked, only for the next panel to show them with little to no visible injuries. I can provide examples if you want. And to be completely honest, those real-world physical laws cannot be strictly applied to fiction anyway

 

[CatLover313]

Okay, I apologize for not noticing earlier, and I understand the part regarding Manager Kim. However, in the case where Jichang intended to use a gun on Charles, I think that cannot really be taken as a valid example. Perhaps it was a mistake by PTJ for not taking into account MK cutting bullets, and there are several cases like this. For instance, Goo vs Jincheol: Jincheol has speed comparable to or possibly greater than MK, yet he still considered using a gun on Goo, who has speed close to his own. It would be very odd for Jincheol to think of using a gun on someone faster than bullets

Charles may have moved the gun close to the old man’s head before firing, or he may have kept some distance and then pulled the trigger. Since there is no panel showing the exact moment Charles fires, it is impossible to determine how he actually shot at the old man

Regarding the characters’ speed, I have revised it and provided further reasoning. What are your thoughts on it now?

I think it’s just meant to be a comedic scene

He was able to shoot Closer because he fired from a blind angle

Edit: The instance of a Jichang using a Gun to try to kill Charles is still explicit enough to show that Gun's can be threatening. If that's not enough, going to the Closer example. While the raws are released, there english TL's have not been (and they are usually 1-2 weeks late....), looking at this instance, if you translate it using the VSBW TL site through their translation wiki thread, Aurora say's he aimed for the head but Closer was able to shift it to his side. If they were really HHS+, at that distance and reaction, he would be fine no matter what.

Said my all about the above so going to leave it to the thread moderator's to determine if it is consistent. If it's still fair, then I still heavily disagree with all the chain scaling and the character's affected should still not be as much until shown otherwise. Again for Gen 2, Jake and Samuel received a powerup in Incheon Arc so they no longer have direct scaling with other Gen 2 members till shown otherwise. While they definitely scale above Lineman in Incheon as they performed better against Paecheon, no other Gen 2 should scale to them besides Johan (Path > Pathless). Goo performed a lot better against a stronger version of Paecheon so he scales directly above Lineman and Gun beat Goo. Sinu has no direct scaling to anyone right now. So Jake, Samuel, Danel, Johan, Gun, and Goo scale to the feat for Gen 2 and 1.5

For Gen 1, 3T Jaegyeon performed better against Paecheon than Lineman so he would scale above too. There is no direct scaling with 3T Jaegyeon and the other First Gen besides Yujae and CT James who directly beat Jaegyeon (And Kitae who has narrative of being comparable to James). Blocking one attack would not be enough evidence for Jichang to scale to Kitae especially since he was shown to be vastly inferior to Kitae (and later on against James Lee). So only CT James, CT Kitae, Yujae, and Jaegyeon scale to the feat for Gen 1. Since Bongae Choi was the reason for Lineman's strength, Bongae's prime version would scale along with any Prime version of Gen 0, no evidence for their current versions though.

 

[Pxnd_013]

Edit: The instance of a Jichang using a Gun to try to kill Charles is still explicit enough to show that Gun's can be threatening. If that's not enough, going to the Closer example. While the raws are released, there english TL's have not been (and they are usually 1-2 weeks late....), looking at this instance, if you translate it using the VSBW TL site through their translation wiki thread, Aurora say's he aimed for the head but Closer was able to shift it to his side. If they were really HHS+, at that distance and reaction, he would be fine no matter what.

Since he was shot from a blind angle, that may be the reason he was unable to evade it. More importantly, I believe this might even be a plot hole. This is because we know that Closer has speed comparable to Manager Kim, who is capable of cutting bullets. Manager Kim, in turn, has speed comparable to Jincheol, who is comparable to Goo—someone who has been shown to cut or dodge bullets at a similar distance. I do not believe this can be explained as aim dodging, since both of them possess comparable speed. It would be strange for Jincheol to perceive Goo’s movement before firing, yet still choose to shoot regardless

Furthermore, there are many similar plot holes in this regard. For example, Daniel Park is shown looking worried when being chased by dogs; Sakamoto, who can react to bullets at close range, is later hit by gunfire from long range; and Dowan, who possesses supersonic speed, is surprised that he is able to catch a crossbow bolt moving at only 50 m/s. For these reasons, I personally believe this instance should also be considered a plot hole

Said my all about the above so going to leave it to the thread moderator's to determine if it is consistent. If it's still fair, then I still heavily disagree with all the chain scaling and the character's affected should still not be as much until shown otherwise. Again for Gen 2, Jake and Samuel received a powerup in Incheon Arc so they no longer have direct scaling with other Gen 2 members till shown otherwise. While they definitely scale above Lineman in Incheon as they performed better against Paecheon, no other Gen 2 should scale to them besides Johan (Path > Pathless). Goo performed a lot better against a stronger version of Paecheon so he scales directly above Lineman and Gun beat Goo. Sinu has no direct scaling to anyone right now. So Jake, Samuel, Danel, Johan, Gun, and Goo scale to the feat for Gen 2 and 1.5

For Gen 1, 3T Jaegyeon performed better against Paecheon than Lineman so he would scale above too. There is no direct scaling with 3T Jaegyeon and the other First Gen besides Yujae and CT James who directly beat Jaegyeon (And Kitae who has narrative of being comparable to James). Blocking one attack would not be enough evidence for Jichang to scale to Kitae especially since he was shown to be vastly inferior to Kitae (and later on against James Lee). So only CT James, CT Kitae, Yujae, and Jaegyeon scale to the feat for Gen 1. Since Bongae Choi was the reason for Lineman's strength, Bongae's prime version would scale along with any Prime version of Gen 0, no evidence for their current versions though.

Although I still believe that the characters I mentioned can scale accordingly, I am fine with your interpretation, as it is a minimal and fairly clear one. Therefore, would the characters that can currently scale to Lineman be limited to the following?

Gen 0
As previously stated

Gen 1
Kitae
James
Jaegyon
Yujae

Gen 1.5
Gun
Goo

Gen 2
Daniel Park ( True Body )
Daniel Park ( Perfect Body )
Jake
Samuel
Johan

 

[CatLover313]

Since he was shot from a blind angle, that may be the reason he was unable to evade it. More importantly, I believe this might even be a plot hole. This is because we know that Closer has speed comparable to Manager Kim, who is capable of cutting bullets. Manager Kim, in turn, has speed comparable to Jincheol, who is comparable to Goo—someone who has been shown to cut or dodge bullets at a similar distance. I do not believe this can be explained as aim dodging, since both of them possess comparable speed. It would be strange for Jincheol to perceive Goo’s movement before firing, yet still choose to shoot regardless

Furthermore, there are many similar plot holes in this regard. For example, Daniel Park is shown looking worried when being chased by dogs; Sakamoto, who can react to bullets at close range, is later hit by gunfire from long range; and Dowan, who possesses supersonic speed, is surprised that he is able to catch a crossbow bolt moving at only 50 m/s. For these reasons, I personally believe this instance should also be considered a plot hole

Although I still believe that the characters I mentioned can scale accordingly, I am fine with your interpretation, as it is a minimal and fairly clear one. Therefore, would the characters that can currently scale to Lineman be limited to the following?

Gen 0
As previously stated

Gen 1
Kitae
James
Jaegyon
Yujae

Gen 1.5
Gun
Goo

Gen 2
Daniel Park ( True Body )
Daniel Park ( Perfect Body )
Jake
Samuel
Johan

The thing is, you can still by Supersonic+/Hypersonic and be tagged by bullets depending on the gun type and context, it’s just that the higher you go like HHS+, the suspension of belief becomes stricter, as under most circumstances, it’s hard to believe a HHS+ character being tagged by a bullet. However, it’s not that a one time instance is enough to discredit the speeds, it’s the instance of multiple times where Guns can be seen as threatening which makes it hard to believe HHS+ speeds is consistent.

Also, I don’t necessarily believe Daniel Park Perfect Body scales to it unless it’s heat mode. But that’s just because PB Daniel is so inconsistent so I’m just not sure and may go with common opinion on this one.

 

[DivineAura44]

The thing is, you can still by Supersonic+/Hypersonic and be tagged by bullets depending on the gun type and context, it’s just that the higher you go like HHS+, the suspension of belief becomes stricter, as under most circumstances, it’s hard to believe a HHS+ character being tagged by a bullet. However, it’s not that a one time instance is enough to discredit the speeds, it’s the instance of multiple times where Guns can be seen as threatening which makes it hard to believe HHS+ speeds is consistent.

Also, I don’t necessarily believe Daniel Park Perfect Body scales to it unless it’s heat mode. But that’s just because PB Daniel is so inconsistent so I’m just not sure and may go with common opinion on this one.

I think the scary part of bullets is supposed to be the long range piercing damage, not necessarily the bullet being too fast to dodge.

 

[CatLover313]

I think the scary part of bullets is supposed to be the long range piercing damage, not necessarily the bullet being too fast to dodge.

I mean, most pistols cap at supersonic speeds. Despite their piercing AP, there’s only so much their max speed can worry you if you’re HHS+ combat speeds. Though that's my belief on why HHS+ is inconsistent due to multiple instances but in the end, it'll be up to the moderator's to decide.

 

[Dinozxd]

I do not understand why you are comparing calculations within the same verse to determine which character is stronger or faster based solely on numerical results, when the concept of scaling clearly exists

Quoting from the page you linked:

• Character A has Solar System level Attack Potency and Durability and moves at FTL speeds, and Character B bests Character A in combat. However, Character B's upper limits are otherwise consistently established as Wall level and Subsonic. In this case, it's not safe to assess that Character B has Solar System level Attack Potency and Durability and moves at FTL speeds, as such occasions irreconcilably contradict Character B's narrative portrayal and would stand as Outliers/Plot-Induced Stupidity on Character B's part.

And before you say "Daniel's upper limit isn't Supersonic", Daniel's emergency counter only works when he's in a pinch and saves him from the danger. That means that without his Path, he couldn't have traveled that fast to save himself from the danger which means that his peak speed rn is Supersonic. For Lineman to scale to HHS+ speeds, there should be supporting calcs for that speed.

That scene exists because PTJ intended to portray Lineman’s speed as being fast enough to strike those individuals while they themselves appear completely motionless. This is entirely normal when depicted from the perspective of someone who is hundreds of times faster.

This is strictly your opinion.

As for the blood, it is most likely just a visual effect. If you have read Lookism, you should be well aware that there are many instances where characters are shown bleeding heavily after being attacked, only for the next panel to show them with little to no visible injuries. I can provide examples if you want.

You can't prove that this is an instance like those. What's real is that there are blood splatters.

Also, Lineman performs this feat aganist no names from the Dark Crocodile gang. After that scene, he went on to no diff two 1000 Squad Members which are stated to be (iirc) actually equal to 1000 no names each. There's simply no way for those no names to walk away from that with 0 visible injuries, considering that Lineman scales far above them.

And to be completely honest, those real-world physical laws cannot be strictly applied to fiction anyway

If you think Newton's laws of motion can't be applied to fiction, then you also disagree with AP feats performed with punches, kicks, etc. scaling to durability as well.

It's not even advanced physics or anything, it's literally just basic mechanics.

 

[Pxnd_013]

The thing is, you can still by Supersonic+/Hypersonic and be tagged by bullets depending on the gun type and context, it’s just that the higher you go like HHS+, the suspension of belief becomes stricter, as under most circumstances, it’s hard to believe a HHS+ character being tagged by a bullet. However, it’s not that a one time instance is enough to discredit the speeds, it’s the instance of multiple times where Guns can be seen as threatening which makes it hard to believe HHS+ speeds is consistent.

There is likely no firearm that is faster than Supersonic+, and based on the scan I provided, the distance was quite large, which should have made it even easier for Sakamoto to react. Yet he still took damage, which is very strange. Therefore, this should be considered a plot hole, just like the Closer case I mentioned earlier. And while it is true that being hit at HHS+ speeds is difficult, there are many verses that display similar contradictions—for example, Peter, who has HHS+ speed yet can still be shot by a gun

Additionally, if you have read Dead Mansion, you would know that there is a character named Sean who is explicitly stated to be capable of dodging bullets, and Sean is not even a mid-tier character within the PTJ Universe. As such, it would be strange if top-tier or god-tier characters were unable to dodge bullets

Plot holes are fairly common, but the PTJ Universe has also shown many instances where guns are not an obstacle to these characters. I do not understand why you place more weight on the relatively scarce evidence suggesting that guns are a threat, rather than the far more abundant evidence showing that guns are not. By that logic, Gapryong Kim—a god-tier character—being hit by an egg thrown by fodder would imply that his speed is only that of an average human, which would obviously be unreasonable

Also, I don’t necessarily believe Daniel Park Perfect Body scales to it unless it’s heat mode. But that’s just because PB Daniel is so inconsistent so I’m just not sure and may go with common opinion on this one.

I believe Daniel (Perfect Body) does reach that level, possibly due to Heat Mode, or simply because of UI, which places him well above Lineman

 

[Pxnd_013]

Quoting from the page you linked:

And before you say "Daniel's upper limit isn't Supersonic", Daniel's emergency counter only works when he's in a pinch and saves him from the danger. That means that without his Path, he couldn't have traveled that fast to save himself from the danger which means that his peak speed rn is Supersonic. For Lineman to scale to HHS+ speeds, there should be supporting calcs for that speed.

What you cited clearly states that "a character’s upper limits are otherwise consistently established" but for Daniel, I don’t see anything that would support that. If you want to use that example, it should be a case like Dandadan, where it is explicitly stated that the character’s speed is only at Superhuman, not decided by calculations. Let me give a few simple examples

Johan has this AP, which is higher than what Gun Tui can do—would you then say Johan has higher AP than Gun Tui?

Baji from TR has the highest speed calculation in the Verse, so he should be faster than Mikey, whose highest calculation is lower, right?

Gagamaru has the fastest calculated speed in the Verse, so he should be faster than Ryusei, who achieved this feat, correct?

This is strictly your opinion.

If you have read Lookism, you can clearly see that this is common

You can't prove that this is an instance like those. What's real is that there are blood splatters.

Also, Lineman performs this feat aganist no names from the Dark Crocodile gang. After that scene, he went on to no diff two 1000 Squad Members which are stated to be (iirc) actually equal to 1000 no names each. There's simply no way for those no names to walk away from that with 0 visible injuries, considering that Lineman scales far above them.

You also cannot prove that the blood shown is real. It is true that Lineman is much stronger than them, but the amount of blood depicted is exaggerated, which is normal in PTJ. Moreover, those characters are floating in midair, and the speed of a falling human is already faster than the blood, so it would be strange for blood to appear realistically. Simply put, it should be considered a visual effect

If you think Newton's laws of motion can't be applied to fiction, then you also disagree with AP feats performed with punches, kicks, etc. scaling to durability as well.

It's not even advanced physics or anything, it's literally just basic mechanics.

This can be applied, but not in every case

 

[CatLover313]

There is likely no firearm that is faster than Supersonic+, and based on the scan I provided, the distance was quite large, which should have made it even easier for Sakamoto to react. Yet he still took damage, which is very strange. Therefore, this should be considered a plot hole, just like the Closer case I mentioned earlier. And while it is true that being hit at HHS+ speeds is difficult, there are many verses that display similar contradictions—for example, Peter, who has HHS+ speed yet can still be shot by a gun

Additionally, if you have read Dead Mansion, you would know that there is a character named Sean who is explicitly stated to be capable of dodging bullets, and Sean is not even a mid-tier character within the PTJ Universe. As such, it would be strange if top-tier or god-tier characters were unable to dodge bullets

Plot holes are fairly common, but the PTJ Universe has also shown many instances where guns are not an obstacle to these characters. I do not understand why you place more weight on the relatively scarce evidence suggesting that guns are a threat, rather than the far more abundant evidence showing that guns are not. By that logic, Gapryong Kim—a god-tier character—being hit by an egg thrown by fodder would imply that his speed is only that of an average human, which would obviously be unreasonable

I believe Daniel (Perfect Body) does reach that level, possibly due to Heat Mode, or simply because of UI, which places him well above Lineman

I don’t read sakamoto days so I won’t say anything about that. However, I also don’t agree with HHS+ Killer Peter too…. Though that’s not at all related to the topic at hand which is just about Lookism speed and Guns. Also, yes, Dead Mansion shows them dodging the bullets but there is nothing indicating that it isn’t Aim Dodging as described on the VSBW projectile dodging page. In fact, almost every time a high tier dodges a bullet in the verse, it is through some sort of erratic movement that can be attributed to Aim dodging. While I need to refresh my memory on Dead Mansion, I can also recall times where some of the main characters have been tagged by bullets/guns/similar or using guns themselves.

It wasn’t until Manager Kim showed himself cutting a bullet in MK season 2 was the first non-Aim Dodging scene accepted, plus the Feat was accepted and calculated to be 445 m/s anyway. Your HHS+ calc is putting them at speeds that is way above the current verses top speed calc and ignoring the previous narrative of Guns being seen as a threat which was accepted by an Retired-Mod in previous CRTs.

Now, one caveat I would like to say is if a Top Tier like James was the one who performed the feat, I wouldn’t be arguing. As the true top tiers of the verse themselves don’t have the narrative of being threatened by bullet speeds that high tiers have and have been shown. However, as long as there’s been multiple instances of high tiers like Jichang using a gun against Charles, Bakgo looking at the gun and being shot, Closer being shot, or high tiers still deciding to use guns against other high tiers, then the narrative of other high tiers being close to HHS+ has to be really questioned. Just like JJK high tiers being capped at Mach 3 for the longest time until it was accepted that Sakuna and Gojo can be accepted to be way above, but everyone below still remaining near that speed.

So I’ve said everything about the consistency, so I don’t want to drag it around much longer and think it’s best just to let a moderator decide.

 

[Pxnd_013]

I don’t read sakamoto days so I won’t say anything about that. However, I also don’t agree with HHS+ Killer Peter too…. Though that’s not at all related to the topic at hand which is just about Lookism speed and Guns. Also, yes, Dead Mansion shows them dodging the bullets but there is nothing indicating that it isn’t Aim Dodging as described on the VSBW projectile dodging page. In fact, almost every time a high tier dodges a bullet in the verse, it is through some sort of erratic movement that can be attributed to Aim dodging. While I need to refresh my memory on Dead Mansion, I can also recall times where some of the main characters have been tagged by bullets/guns/similar or using guns themselves.

I understand, since that was merely an example. As for Dead Mansion, it is the same case as Jincheol vs. Goo, so I will not elaborate further. In this verse, there are instances of both aim dodging and non–aim dodging, and which one applies depends on the interpretation of each individual scene.

It wasn’t until Manager Kim showed himself cutting a bullet in MK season 2 was the first non-Aim Dodging scene accepted, plus the Feat was accepted and calculated to be 445 m/s anyway. Your HHS+ calc is putting them at speeds that is way above the current verses top speed calc and ignoring the previous narrative of Guns being seen as a threat which was accepted by an Retired-Mod in previous CRTs.

Are you saying this should be considered an outlier? As I mentioned before regarding guns being treated as a threat, in my view this is simply a plot hole. This is because some characters who are neither God Tier nor High Tier are able to react to guns, so it would be strange if God Tier or High Tier characters were unable to do so

Now, one caveat I would like to say is if a Top Tier like James was the one who performed the feat, I wouldn’t be arguing. As the true top tiers of the verse themselves don’t have the narrative of being threatened by bullet speeds that high tiers have and have been shown. However, as long as there’s been multiple instances of high tiers like Jichang using a gun against Charles, Bakgo looking at the gun and being shot, Closer being shot, or high tiers still deciding to use guns against other high tiers, then the narrative of other high tiers being close to HHS+ has to be really questioned. Just like JJK high tiers being capped at Mach 3 for the longest time until it was accepted that Sakuna and Gojo can be accepted to be way above, but everyone below still remaining near that speed.

As for the use of guns against opponents, I do not think it is particularly strange. Guns help extend combat range and allow for better control of timing in various situations, and Manager Kim himself uses this kind of tactic in his series

That may be the case, but for Jujutsu Kaisen, it was explicitly stated that the maximum speed was Mach 3. This is not the case for the PTJ Universe

So I’ve said everything about the consistency, so I don’t want to drag it around much longer and think it’s best just to let a moderator decide.

understand

 

[CatLover313]

Are you saying this should be considered an outlier? As I mentioned before regarding guns being treated as a threat, in my view this is simply a plot hole. This is because some characters who are neither God Tier nor High Tier are able to react to guns, so it would be strange if God Tier or High Tier characters were unable to do so

As for the use of guns against opponents, I do not think it is particularly strange. Guns help extend combat range and allow for better control of timing in various situations, and Manager Kim himself uses this kind of tactic in his series

Nah, I'm not considering that an outlier. The calc deemed it to be Supersonic which is still in the range of being able to dodge/cut a bullet but not the realm of speed where it's no longer "threatening" unlike where HHS+ speeds would put it.

Also, yes, Guns can extend the range of the fighter but often times, they always pull it out in close combat right before the other opponent which would kind of be pointless if they did have HHS+ combat speeds.

Just the last couple of things I want to address.

 

[Pxnd_013]

Nah, I'm not considering that an outlier. The calc deemed it to be Supersonic which is still in the range of being able to dodge/cut a bullet but not the realm of speed where it's no longer "threatening" unlike where HHS+ speeds would put it.

Also, yes, Guns can extend the range of the fighter but often times, they always pull it out in close combat right before the other opponent which would kind of be pointless if they did have HHS+ combat speeds.

Just the last couple of things I want to address.

As I’ve mentioned, in my opinion, this is a plot hole, because honestly, I can hardly see a Top-Tier or God-Tier character being afraid of bullets—at most, they might be startled

Guns can also create openings in a fight. Even if the opponent is faster than the bullets, they still have to dodge, so it remains a exploitable weakness

 

[Dinozxd]

What you cited clearly states that "a character’s upper limits are otherwise consistently established" but for Daniel, I don’t see anything that would support that.

Literally told u why it is supported in the reply.

Johan has this AP, which is higher than what Gun Tui can do—would you then say Johan has higher AP than Gun Tui?

Both of the feats are enviromental destruction. Johan hits Gun before cratering the wall and Gun hits Goo before the shockwave stuff. Gun's body in Johan's feat and Goo's body in Gun's feat tank some of the energy and that's why the results are different.

Also, the difference in results is about 1.4x which doesn't need supporting calcs. Not about 36x like Lineman and Daniel's case.

Baji from TR has the highest speed calculation in the Verse, so he should be faster than Mikey, whose highest calculation is lower, right?

This is cherrypicking. Next highest calc of Baji is only about 2x lower than the Hypersonic+ one and rest of the calcs all support each jump with 1-1.5x differences. I would be okay with Lineman scaling to HHS+ if there were accepted HHS or even Hypersonic+ that supported that jump.

Gagamaru has the fastest calculated speed in the Verse, so he should be faster than Ryusei, who achieved this feat, correct?

Look at the speed difference between the two calcs. That's all I'll say.

If you have read Lookism, you can clearly see that this is common

I have and I don't remember PTJ showing injuries that never happened.

You also cannot prove that the blood shown is real.

I just did that btw. It's also weird for me to have to prove visible blood splurts to exist. We see them and it makes sense for Lineman's attacks to do that much damage on them. Those are proof.

Moreover, those characters are floating in midair, and the speed of a falling human is already faster than the blood, so it would be strange for blood to appear realistically.

This is irrelevant to the point I'm making man.

This can be applied, but not in every case

I'm failing to see why this wouldn't be a case like that.

 

[Pxnd_013]

Literally told u why it is supported in the reply.

I have explained my reasoning as well

Both of the feats are enviromental destruction. Johan hits Gun before cratering the wall and Gun hits Goo before the shockwave stuff. Gun's body in Johan's feat and Goo's body in Gun's feat tank some of the energy and that's why the results are different.

And that does not mean Johan has higher AP than Gun, correct?

Also, the difference in results is about 1.4x which doesn't need supporting calcs. Not about 36x like Lineman and Daniel's case.

The issue is not about how many times higher it is, because from the beginning, you were the one who stated that a character like Lineman should not be faster than Daniel based on calculations

This is cherrypicking. Next highest calc of Baji is only about 2x lower than the Hypersonic+ one and rest of the calcs all support each jump with 1-1.5x differences. I would be okay with Lineman scaling to HHS+ if there were accepted HHS or even Hypersonic+ that supported that jump.

Look at the speed difference between the two calcs. That's all I'll say.

I only brought this up as an example to help you understand, because initially you did not say that you were using the highest calculation in the verse as the reference. Instead, you used Daniel’s calculation as the benchmark, which in reality cannot determine who is faster solely based on calculations. Therefore, if there were accepted HHS or Hypersonic+ calculations, would you then accept this CRT?

I have and I don't remember PTJ showing injuries that never happened.

Do you mean scenes where a character is hit, blood is shown, but in the next panel there are no visible injuries? If so, I can provide examples

For instance:

Daniel attacks James Lee, and a large amount of blood is shown, yet in the next scene James Lee is depicted as having taken no damage at all.

James Lee attacks Seongji, and a large amount of blood is shown, but in the next scene Seongji is able to block the attack without any visible wounds.

Vasco attacks Kitae

Zack attacks Kitae

Sinu attacks Kitae

Because of this, I think the case with Lineman should be treated the same way. If you want me to provide more examples, I can give many more

I just did that btw. It's also weird for me to have to prove visible blood splurts to exist. We see them and it makes sense for Lineman's attacks to do that much damage on them. Those are proof.

This is irrelevant to the point I'm making man.

As I mentioned before, this should be considered a visual effect, because the character remains suspended in the same position. It would be strange if the blood were falling at a speed greater than that of a human body that is still floating in place

I'm failing to see why this wouldn't be a case like that.

These characters operate at a superhuman level, and some real-world principles cannot be directly applied. For example, if we applied real-life physics to characters with supersonic speed, would their bodies realistically be able to withstand that movement? I am not very good at explaining this, but I believe you understand what I mean

 

[Crimsonobu]

I have explained my reasoning as well

And that does not mean Johan has higher AP than Gun, correct?

The issue is not about how many times higher it is, because from the beginning, you were the one who stated that a character like Lineman should not be faster than Daniel based on calculations

I only brought this up as an example to help you understand, because initially you did not say that you were using the highest calculation in the verse as the reference. Instead, you used Daniel’s calculation as the benchmark, which in reality cannot determine who is faster solely based on calculations. Therefore, if there were accepted HHS or Hypersonic+ calculations, would you then accept this CRT?

Do you mean scenes where a character is hit, blood is shown, but in the next panel there are no visible injuries? If so, I can provide examples

For instance:

Daniel attacks James Lee, and a large amount of blood is shown, yet in the next scene James Lee is depicted as having taken no damage at all.

James Lee attacks Seongji, and a large amount of blood is shown, but in the next scene Seongji is able to block the attack without any visible wounds.

Vasco attacks Kitae

Zack attacks Kitae

Sinu attacks Kitae

Because of this, I think the case with Lineman should be treated the same way. If you want me to provide more examples, I can give many more

As I mentioned before, this should be considered a visual effect, because the character remains suspended in the same position. It would be strange if the blood were falling at a speed greater than that of a human body that is still floating in place

These characters operate at a superhuman level, and some real-world principles cannot be directly applied. For example, if we applied real-life physics to characters with supersonic speed, would their bodies realistically be able to withstand that movement? I am not very good at explaining this, but I believe you understand what I mean

cliff em nephew

 

[Dinozxd]

I have explained my reasoning as well

When exactly? All you did was giving me an example from an upper limit via a stated speed which is not the only way an upper limit for a character can be set. If a character is stated to be going all out in a feat and that gets calced to Subsonic while another feat of the character in the same arc (no power amp) just messing around gets calced to Supersonic, the Supersonic calc is literally just inconsistent.

And that does not mean Johan has higher AP than Gun, correct?

Correct but that case can't be applied to most speed feats.

The issue is not about how many times higher it is, because from the beginning, you were the one who stated that a character like Lineman should not be faster than Daniel based on calculations

Quoting a part of my own previous reply:

For Lineman to scale to HHS+ speeds, there should be supporting calcs for that speed.

If Lineman was shown to be superior to Daniel or Daniel performed the Supersonic feat eariler in the story, I would've still been okay to scale Lineman to HHS+; but both the massive jump in difference and Lineman's inverse scaling just makes the result of this calc a big outlier.

because initially you did not say that you were using the highest calculation in the verse as the reference. Instead, you used Daniel’s calculation as the benchmark,

"Highest calc in verse" and "Daniel's calc" are the same thing btw.

Therefore, if there were accepted HHS or Hypersonic+ calculations, would you then accept this CRT?

There'd still the other problem I have with the calculation but you'd convince me halfway at least.

Daniel attacks James Lee, and a large amount of blood is shown, yet in the next scene James Lee is depicted as having taken no damage at all.

Vasco attacks Kitae

Zack attacks Kitae

Sinu attacks Kitae

(I can't see any of the scans btw so correct me If I say something wrong here) Daniel doesn't scale to James; Vasco, Zack nor Sinu scale to Kitae. Lineman is massively superior to those goons. The only one that doesn't fit this same critera is:

James Lee attacks Seongji, and a large amount of blood is shown, but in the next scene Seongji is able to block the attack without any visible wounds.

This was likely to build some kind of hype around Seongji's block (PTJ's classic "did they block it or not?" scenes), which isn't really the case with Lineman's scene. It is pretty straight forward compared to this one. That's the only way it can be explained tbh.

As I mentioned before, this should be considered a visual effect, because the character remains suspended in the same position. It would be strange if the blood were falling at a speed greater than that of a human body that is still floating in place

The thing is, we don't see their heads due to the blood splurts and the attack effect. Judging from the damage the attack inflicted on them and taking basic physics into account, one can assume that their heads could've snapped backwards which does invalidate the calc.

These characters operate at a superhuman level, and some real-world principles cannot be directly applied. For example, if we applied real-life physics to characters with supersonic speed, would their bodies realistically be able to withstand that movement?

You pretty much gave the answer to your own question:

+ if we applied real-life physics to characters with supersonic speed, would their bodies realistically be able to withstand that movement?
- These characters operate at a superhuman level

Their bodies can take higher yields of energy and that's why they'd be able to move at higher speeds compared to other people even if we applied irl physics.

Also like, applying KE to characters' speed is specifically prohibited in vsbw (because it leads to inflated AP for characters just because of their speed), while one of Newton's laws of motion is literally a key part of a stat and the other two ones aren't prohibited for usage.

 

[Crimsonobu]

the daniel calc should be hypersonic+. due to the 250kmh statement which i have 0 idea why im not being allowed to use. scince its not a jay exclusive statement(thus doesnt break one step scaling). its a general martial arts statement for weapon wielders which you do not need arguments to put the person attacking Daniel above (a relevant person wielding his stongest weapon).
specifically 4086.488888 m/s

 

[Pxnd_013]

When exactly? All you did was giving me an example from an upper limit via a stated speed which is not the only way an upper limit for a character can be set. If a character is stated to be going all out in a feat and that gets calced to Subsonic while another feat of the character in the same arc (no power amp) just messing around gets calced to Supersonic, the Supersonic calc is literally just inconsistent.

I do not understand where this idea came from. What you presented is something I already addressed: it must be a limit that is clearly established within the narrative itself, not something determined by comparing who is faster purely through calculations

Correct but that case can't be applied to most speed feats.

It is still a calculation either way. Both speed and AP are values that can be scaled

If Lineman was shown to be superior to Daniel or Daniel performed the Supersonic feat eariler in the story, I would've still been okay to scale Lineman to HHS+; but both the massive jump in difference and Lineman's inverse scaling just makes the result of this calc a big outlier.

I will no longer address the point about both characters’ speeds being determined through calculations. As for the magnitude of the jump, I do not think it is as extreme as you are suggesting. On the Outlier page, there is a clear example provided in point 1 where the gap reaches several hundred times, yet it is still considered acceptable

"Highest calc in verse" and "Daniel's calc" are the same thing btw.

My confusion comes from the fact that if you had said “the highest speed in the verse,” I would have interpreted that as you referring to an outlier. However, you specifically mentioned the speed comparison between Daniel and Lineman, so I understood it as you referring to the relative speeds of both characters, consistent with what we have been discussing

(I can't see any of the scans btw so correct me If I say something wrong here) Daniel doesn't scale to James; Vasco, Zack nor Sinu scale to Kitae. Lineman is massively superior to those goons. The only one that doesn't fit this same critera is:

This was likely to build some kind of hype around Seongji's block (PTJ's classic "did they block it or not?" scenes), which isn't really the case with Lineman's scene. It is pretty straight forward compared to this one. That's the only way it can be explained tbh.

I am only talking about the point that “the blood is a visual effect.” This has nothing to do with who is superior. It is true that PTJ depicts those blood splatters, but that does not mean they are entirely reliable as concrete evidence

So the question is: is it a visual effect or not? I would like to hear your answer on this

The thing is, we don't see their heads due to the blood splurts and the attack effect. Judging from the damage the attack inflicted on them and taking basic physics into account, one can assume that their heads could've snapped backwards which does invalidate the calc.

As for the blood, I have already explained my position in my previous comment. Regarding the head movement, you have no confirmation that the characters’ heads snapped backward. And what about the characters being suspended in place? How would you explain that?

You pretty much gave the answer to your own question:

Their bodies can take higher yields of energy and that's why they'd be able to move at higher speeds compared to other people even if we applied irl physics.

Also like, applying KE to characters' speed is specifically prohibited in vsbw (because it leads to inflated AP for characters just because of their speed), while one of Newton's laws of motion is literally a key part of a stat and the other two ones aren't prohibited for usage.

It should be that way

That is ultimately all I am trying to convey: fiction cannot always be fully bound by real-world physics

 

[Hugoyou03]

Only thing I want to provide is that while Manager Kim (another High Tier) has shown to cut a bullet, Guns can still be seen as threats and even used by Jichang (High Tier) against Elite (Another High Tier) in their fight. Also, the old guy was able to intervene in a previous fight stopping the MC and Jichang from fighting while still not being able to react to the gun. While I do think they're supersonic so they can dodge the occasional bullet, Gun's still seem to be a threat to them. The highest speed calc of the verse is also this right now.

Edit: Also, I have a huge issue on why all those characters scale to Lineman. There's only a few direct characters that actually scale to Lineman, yet he's being scaled to characters that have no direct scaling and could even have possible arguments that Lineman would be far above them as of right now.

jichang died because he was injured, elite hit jichang's top foot therefore he lost all his strenght and lost the fight. This explain why jichang couldn't dodge the bullet. On top of that, before being hit on his top foot, he was relative to elite in term of speed.

(Just a little rectification because if you forgot some argument and downscale lookism because of that, it's a problem)

 

[CatLover313]

jichang died because he was injured, elite hit jichang's top foot therefore he lost all his strenght and lost the fight. This explain why jichang couldn't dodge the bullet. On top of that, before being hit on his top foot, he was relative to elite in term of speed.

(Just a little rectification because if you forgot some argument and downscale lookism because of that, it's a problem)

Them being relevant speed before the toe hit doesn’t really have anything to do with Jichang betting everything on pulling out a gun and trying to shoot Charles with it. Also, the argument was that high tiers still deciding to pull out guns while in direct combat and other high tiers being tagged by a bullet while directly in front of the gun (Bakgo and Closer) makes specifically “High Tiers” having HHS+ combat speeds inconsistent. But I already did this entire convo with Pxnd so I don’t wanna do this again and would really just like a moderator to decide.

 

[Crimsonobu]

Them being relevant speed before the toe hit doesn’t really have anything to do with Jichang betting everything on pulling out a gun and trying to shoot Charles with it. Also, the argument was that high tiers still deciding to pull out guns while in direct combat and other high tiers being tagged by a bullet while directly in front of the gun (Bakgo and Closer) makes specifically “High Tiers” having HHS+ combat speeds inconsistent. But I already did this entire convo with Pxnd so I don’t wanna do this again and would really just like a moderator to decide.

ok so plot induced stupidity doesn't exist what so ever. like baki characters (one whos even known yujiro for a major part of his life) thinking hes ready to fight him with small explosives and a few guns. just because it was planned doesn't mean it would succeed. guns have barely been relevant in ptj anymore scince fodders in juvenile law have been easily dodging them even in terrible positions. manager Kim legit out sped one whil even lowballing the feat. they consistently dodge gunfire and most of the times they get tagged by bullets is when they get caught already mid air in an attack or after getting blocked and countered like the closer in the recent chapter


this again doesn't really change much since from dinos own words if there was a hyper lookism calc it would be fine to accept the hhs lineman arg.
the Daniel calc by all possible accounts SHOULD be in the hypersonic range. the 250kmh statement does break any rules. its a general martial arts statement thus it doesn't need multiple step scaling as this character is a relevant level of strength WHILE being a weapons wielder.

its like people are so willing to be riding on downplaying lookism while other verses like killer peter have a higher level of speed jump with one feat that DIDNT EVEN HAPPENED the guy was literally drugged out of his mind, he didnt do anything. its all in his mind, the feat never happend

and the supersonic feat happened while dowan temporarily maxxed out his stats. which he isnt at right now, so his high hyper scaling outright gets invalidated by that.

can we please actually make decent new arguments rather then repeating the same points over and over and over

 

[CatLover313]

ok so plot induced stupidity doesn't exist what so ever. like baki characters (one whos even known yujiro for a major part of his life) thinking hes ready to fight him with small explosives and a few guns. just because it was planned doesn't mean it would succeed. guns have barely been relevant in ptj anymore scince fodders in juvenile law have been easily dodging them even in terrible positions. manager Kim legit out sped one whil even lowballing the feat. they consistently dodge gunfire and most of the times they get tagged by bullets is when they get caught already mid air in an attack or after getting blocked and countered like the closer in the recent chapter


this again doesn't really change much since from dinos own words if there was a hyper lookism calc it would be fine to accept the hhs lineman arg.
the Daniel calc by all possible accounts SHOULD be in the hypersonic range. the 250kmh statement does break any rules. its a general martial arts statement thus it doesn't need multiple step scaling as this character is a relevant level of strength WHILE being a weapons wielder.

its like people are so willing to be riding on downplaying lookism while other verses like killer peter have a higher level of speed jump with one feat that DIDNT EVEN HAPPENED the guy was literally drugged out of his mind, he didnt do anything. its all in his mind, the feat never happend

and the supersonic feat happened while dowan temporarily maxxed out his stats. which he isnt at right now, so his high hyper scaling outright gets invalidated by that.

can we please actually make decent new arguments rather then repeating the same points over and over and over

I’m only repeating the the same arguments because no one’s addressed them besides saying plot induced stupidity yet happening multiple times (not just once) which is usually more than indicative of the speed scaling having to be examined. Thats why I rather just have a moderator look at it all so I don’t need to keep repeating things and just see what they believe (my bigger gripe anyway is the formula).

For the other verses, I’ll be honest, I barely read KP, I only did two calculations while examining the chapters of the feats. My stance is already I disagree with its HHS scaling but idk much about its context to argue about it. The RQ scaling for HHS is basically null already too ever since the hypersonic feat was debunked. I’m even trying to pass a CRT for the speed revision for more accurate speed scaling.

Again, idk about stated timeframes but there is a thread to its discussion for its reasonings. Only one step direct scaling appears to be accepted with multiple step being highly unreliable due to causing inflated numbers that are usually inconsistent with other showings. Lookism timeframes just seem to fall under that umbrella due to not having many of it applicable through one step scaling.