Superman speed upgrade and abilities addition

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's obvious Superman's combat and reaction speed are finite at best. He is capable of time travel via sheer flight yes, but that's just time travel and not true speed scaling to his reactions.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

It's obvious Superman's combat and reaction speed are finite at best. He is capable of time travel via sheer flight yes, but that's just time travel and not true speed scaling to his reactions.

I been telling this since day 1

 

[Rgerdeena]

Superman's not Thor lmao, he holds back, sure, against enemies.
He has anti feats of being UNABLE to do *****, not just lowering himself.

• Textually stated to be unable to go FTL without Flash's speed boost.
• Unable to catch Barry and Wally, even though they were going "slow enough" to still be perceived by slow motion cams and take real time to go across the world.
• ******* calling throwing 4K punches in a second as something so fast that he needed to learn it from Flash.
• Even though being amped to an unimaginable degree, he was still under the "laws" of speed and light, although taking some time, could still keep up with him.

We add this to the fact that he did this by running, where he's at his lowest, and we've a precious inconsistency that isn't a feat at all either.

his power is confirmed to vary based on emotional state and it is confirmed that he needs to use his full active brain for him to use his full power and I highly doubt that any of those anti feats were him at his best emotional state or mental usage since he Has displayed several feats that contradict those anti feats

 

[Rgerdeena]

It's obvious Superman's combat and reaction speed are finite at best. He is capable of time travel via sheer flight yes, but that's just time travel and not true speed scaling to his reactions.

How is it obvious that Superman, who we accept of having infinite power and is commonly portrayed as almost as fast as flash and scales to characters who can travel across dc’s universe(which has multiple statements of being infinite) in a finite time, has finite speed at best, I’m not saying it can’t be argued that his speed is finite but it’s not like it’s impossible for his speed to be infinite

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Infinite/Immeasurable Power =/= Infinite/Immeasurable speed, Superman holds back his power both consciously and subconsciously, but stats like speed and lifting strength are things he has no reason to hold back. He wants to save people obviously. There are exist comic books where the literal plot point was "He couldn't save everyone because he wasn't strong or fast enough. Moving so fast they went too far back in time is a literal anti-feat for their reaction speed. Also, statements about his "Flight and reaction speed being comparable" only really apply to things like his initial speed; he has the ability to accelerate over time and build his speed. In which, traveling forward and backward in time isn't something he does instantly (Or faster than instantly). He needs to build speed by usually flying laps around the earth to build acceleration in order to even perform time travel feats.

Also, since you brought up Flash, not only is they officially and easily faster than Superman or pretty much the rest of the JLA, their speed also varies for other factors and connection to the Speed Force. They also have anti-feats in other areas. There also were comics where Wally needed to be buffed by the entirety of Earth (Including Superman's speed) just to perform feats Septillions of times FTL. And this is an example of him being many times faster than basically everyone who isn't a Speedster/Flash.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Infinite/Immeasurable Power =/= Infinite/Immeasurable speed

I know that I’m just saying that it’s not impossible for a character to have beyond finite speed if they have other stats that are beyond finite

Superman holds back his power both consciously and subconsciously, but stats like speed and lifting strength are things he has no reason to hold back. He wants to save people obviously. There are exist comic books where the literal plot point was "He couldn't save everyone because he wasn't strong or fast enough.

We accept that Thor holds back his speed and lifting strength why is Superman any different, we even accept that flash holds back his speed because he knows that going to fast would kill people and the same thing would definitely apply to Superman, also holding back isn’t the only reason his power varies and the other reasons would logically cause his speed and lifting strength to vary

Moving so fast they went too far back in time is a literal anti-feat for their reaction speed.

When did this happen

Also, statements about his "Flight and reaction speed being comparable" only really apply to things like his initial speed

Why

In which, traveling forward and backward in time isn't something he does instantly (Or faster than instantly). He needs to build speed by usually flying laps around the earth to build acceleration in order to even perform time travel feats.

The only part that isn’t faster than instant is when he’s accelerating to immeasurable speed and he obviously isn’t at immeasurable speed while he’s accelerating to immeasurable speed so anything that happens in that acceleration period doesn’t contradict that he has immeasurable speed once he finishes accelerating to it

Also, since you brought up Flash, not only is they officially and easily faster than Superman or pretty much the rest of the JLA

Superman has raced both flashes several times and been nearly even with them, superman is quite consistently able to tag people who can tag flash, we literally have a link in flash’s profile where flash said trying to beat the Superman of his earth would be suicidal while he was speed blitzing ultraman greatly implying he can’t just speed blitz Superman since he could most likely think to use a tactic he was actively using against someone else, I’m not saying that Superman scales to flash’s top speed but he is absolutely fairly consistently portrayed as close to flash in speed

They also have anti-feats in other areas. There also were comics where Wally needed to be buffed by the entirety of Earth (Including Superman's speed) just to perform feats Septillions of times FTL. And this is an example of him being many times faster than basically everyone who isn't a Speedster/Flash.

that’s an anti feat for flash not Superman, we aren’t debating about whether or not flash has immeasurable speed

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

that’s an anti feat for flash not Superman, we aren’t debating about whether or not flash has immeasurable speed

Common knowledge is that Flash is faster than Superman, so an antifeat for Flash is an antifeat for Superman.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

Common knowledge is that Flash is faster than Superman, so an antifeat for Flash is an antifeat for Superman.

Tbh sometimes supermán is faster than flash

 

[Rgerdeena]

Common knowledge is that Flash is faster than Superman, so an antifeat for Flash is an antifeat for Superman.

What we accept flash’s speed as is what is faster than Superman, not a random anti feat of flash

 

[GeneralSol16]

Tbh sometimes supermán is faster than flash

You are just wrong.

Superman has raced both flashes several times and been nearly even with them.

"Those were for charity, Clark"
There's NO FREAKING fight and / or race that Barry hasn't been holding back. He's always faster even when going slowly, he can only touch him because Flash wants to be touched, or he's goofing around.

 

[Rgerdeena]

"Those were for charity, Clark"
There's NO FREAKING fight and / or race that Barry hasn't been holding back. He's always faster even when going slowly, he can only touch him because Flash wants to be touched, or he's goofing around.

Superman is always holding back their both not going at their absolute top speed when they interact with each other, also I never said Superman scales to a non holding back flash I said he is consistently portrayed as almost as fast as flash

 

[GeneralSol16]

I said he is consistently portrayed as almost as fast as flash

Which is also horribly wrong.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Which is also horribly wrong.

The numerous races where they have been almost even in, the fact that Superman can consistently tag opponents that can tag flash, the fact that flash doesn’t think he can beat Superman

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

You're probably the worst Superman supporter I've ever seen.

Again, no need to be rude.

But I do agree with what you're saying regarding their differences.

 

[GeneralSol16]

Again, no need to be rude.

Oh, yeah, sorry.
I got out of my way with that comment, I just got very frustrated with this kind of reasonings.

It won't happen again.

 

[GeneralSol16]

The numerous races where they have been almost even in

In which Flash ALWAYS holds back since for him they're just a game.

the fact that Superman can consistently tag opponents that can tag flash.

A holding back Flash, who's always moving around Relativistic speeds.
And when he's not, he sees him in slow motion almost like a statue.

the fact that flash doesn’t think he can beat Superman

Because Flash is physically way weaker than him, to the point that he could break his hand if he tries to punch him, unless he goes at Max speeds, something he doesn't like to do.

 

[Rgerdeena]

In which Flash ALWAYS holds back since for him they're just a game.
A holding back Flash, who's always moving around Relativistic speeds.
And when he's not, he sees him in slow motion almost like a statue

Superman is also always holding back, that doesn’t mean they aren’t portrayed as comparable in those comics.

Because Flash is physically way weaker than him, to the point that he could break his hand if he tries to punch him, unless he goes at Max speeds, something he doesn't like to do.

He has punched multiple powerhouses and not broken his hand and done actual damage, he literally said he can’t beat the Superman of his earth while he was speed blitzing ultraman greatly implying that he can’t just speed blitz Superman

 

[GeneralSol16]

Superman is also always holding back, that doesn’t mean they aren’t portrayed as comparable in those comics.

That just makes it imposible for you to have a scaling chain. A holding back Flash is still way faster than a non holding back Superman, or in other words: a finite speed Flash >>>> Superman, holding back or not.

He has punched multiple powerhouses and not broken his hand and done actual damage.

Narratively speaking, he always needs to use some special technique to actual do it or go at certain speed.

he literally said he can’t beat the Superman of his earth while he was speed blitzing ultraman greatly implying that he can’t just speed blitz Superman

Which has been proved to not be true, those statements have always existed but they're just glazing Clark.

You're just repeating yourself over and over again.

 

[Rgerdeena]

That just makes it imposible for you to have a scaling chain. A holding back Flash is still way faster than a non holding back Superman, or in other words: a finite speed Flash >>>> Superman, holding back or not.

I never said Superman scales to flash, I just said that Superman is quite commonly portrayed as almost as fast as flash

Narratively speaking, he always needs to use some special technique to actual do it or go at certain speed.

our Barry Allen and Wally west profiles list several occasions where flash has harmed powerhouses by punching them

Which has been proved to not be true, those statements have always existed but they're just glazing Clark.

i know it has been proven that he can demolish Superman because of his sheer speed, but it has also been shown on numerous occasions that flash isn’t able to beat Superman

You're just repeating yourself over and over again.

Only because you are practically ignoring my other points whenever you debunk one

 

[GeneralSol16]

Only because you are practically ignoring my other points whenever you debunk one

There's no other points.

Clark can't keep up with a non casual Flash.
The treadmill isn't a speed feat under this context.
He doesn't have any other supporting feats.
Even if this was as you claim it is, it'd still be an outlier.

 

[Rgerdeena]

There's no other points.

you have repeatedly debunked points I’ve made by saying stuff that ignores other points I made

Clark can't keep up with a non casual Flash.

Holding back and casual are not the same thing and Superman has repeatedly shown to be able to keep up with a holding back flash and besides I never tried to use that as an argument for immeasurable speed I just said that it’s not impossible for a guy, who is consistently portrayed as almost as fast as flash among other things, to have none finite speed

The treadmill isn't a speed feat under this context

It is just supporting evidence and there is stuff that shows it’s a speed feat in this context

He doesn't have any other supporting feats.
Even if this was as you claim it is, it'd still be an outlier.

1 statement of being able to generate a tachyon trail to time travel, 1 statement of being able to time travel, 1 statement of being able to time travel from raw speed

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Infinite/Immeasurable Power =/= Infinite/Immeasurable speed, Superman holds back his power both consciously and subconsciously, but stats like speed and lifting strength are things he has no reason to hold back. He wants to save people obviously.

OK, so this is slightly incorrect.


I'm not going to argue about whether or not his speed is infinite but it's stated multiple times he holds back his speed, especially on Earth. In fact, Superman points out in all of his rematches against Doomsday that unlike the first time, he needs to use speed on Doomsday this time, and that AND THESE are life or death battles

Also, the "Flash needed to be buffed" is from The Human Race storyline #136–138 (1998). Flash and Superman both got powerups since then towards their current levels: Flash's upgrade in the Black Flash storyline where he ran alongside the DCU big Bang happens just a few months after that, in Flash #141 and Superman's training with Mongul in Superman 152.

So being fair, he does hold back his speed, especially on Earth to prevent collateral, because he doesn't realize he is, and because it takes a massive amount of mental strain to go to those kinds of speeeds, as he says it's "lonely" and "difficult" to exist like that

 

[Rgerdeena]

Bump

 

[Rgerdeena]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

What currently needs to be evaluated here and what is our staff consensus here so far?

 

[Rgerdeena]

What currently needs to be evaluated here and what is our staff consensus here so far?

Godernt agrees with intangibility and agrees with resistance to limited power nullification and agrees with speed being MFTL+, immeasurable via time travel and agrees with time travel and is neutral on eternal life
Darkdragonmedus agrees with godernt mostly but disagrees with immeasurable speed
You disagreed with immeasurable speed

Overall I’m just waiting to get at least 3 agreements before I add anything

 

[Antvasima]

Superman’s speed should be upgraded to massively FTL+, immeasurable via time travel the evidence is This

Superman should have time travel on his profile for the same reasons as the speed upgrade

Superman should have (I don’t know what to call it) on his profile the evidence is This

Superman should have intangibility on his profile the evidence is This

Superman should have immortality(type 1) on his profile the evidence is This

Superman should have resistance to power nullification on his profile the evidence is This and the drawbacks of it should be mentioned

Note:this is my first time doing anything here so sorry if I did anything wrong

Your image links seem to be dead, which makes it hard for me to evaluate.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Your image links seem to be dead, which makes it hard for me to evaluate.

Fixing now

 

[Rgerdeena]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Superman’s speed should be upgraded to massively FTL+, immeasurable via time travel the evidence is This from Action Comics #992 and Batman/Superman: World's Finest #39 and Adventures of Superman: Book of El #2

Superman used the cosmic threadmill to do so. I think that we need evidence of him doing so without equipment first.

Superman should have time travel on his profile for the same reasons as the speed upgrade

Ditto.

Superman should have (I don’t know what to call it) on his profile the evidence is This from Batman/Superman: World's Finest #1 and Action Comics #1091 and Superman (Volume 5) #12

Please be more specific.

Superman should have intangibility on his profile the evidence is This from Action Comics #1053 and Action Comics #1049

Maybe for the first case, but in the scond case it seems like he just dodged an attack from Orion by using superspeed.

Superman should have immortality(type 1) on his profile the evidence is This from Superman (Volume 6) #18 and Superman (Volume 6) #19

I suppose that may be acceptable.

Superman should have resistance to power nullification on his profile the evidence is This from Superman Unlimited #2 and the drawbacks of it should be mentioned

That does not seem to be resistance to power nullification. Just a temporary golden form that makes Superman briefly resistant to Kryptonite, not power nullification in general.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Superman used the cosmic threadmill to do so. I think that we need evidence of him doing so without equipment first.

The last two scans from that say he can do it without equipment

Ditto.

Same as I just said

Please be more specific.

I should have edited that I figured out what to call it after I posted this thread and forgot to edit it, basically it’s just that he can vibrate at superspeed which is vibration manipulation and the various applications of it should be mentioned(creating shockwaves and making his face blurry so that he can’t be identified and entering the space between spaces), I’ll fix the OP now

Maybe for the first case, but in the scond case it seems like he just dodged an attack from Orion by using superspeed.

he looks like he phased in the second one to me, but either way wouldn’t the first one be enough to prove it

That does not seem to be resistance to power nullification. Just a temporary golden form that makes Superman briefly resistant to Kryptonite, not power nullification in general.

Our power nullification page says power nullification in general only works on the stuff it’s been shown to work on which would mean kryptonite has power nullification that nullifies powers if your power source is being a kryptonian, and plus his profile already gives him resistance to power nullification via genesis tech that protects him from kryptonite, the golden form would just be another method he can use

 

[Antvasima]

The last two scans from that say he can do it without equipment

Same as I just said

Okay. That seems fine to me then.

I should have edited that I figured out what to call it after I posted this thread and forgot to edit it, basically it’s just that he can vibrate at superspeed which is vibration manipulation and the various applications of it should be mentioned(creating shockwaves and making his face blurry so that he can’t be identified and entering the space between spaces), I’ll fix the OP now

Okay. Vibration Manipulation seems fine then.

he looks like he phased in the second one to me, but either way wouldn’t the first one be enough to prove it

I think so, yes.

Our power nullification page says power nullification in general only works on the stuff it’s been shown to work on which would mean kryptonite has power nullification that nullifies powers if your power source is being a kryptonian, and plus his profile already gives him resistance to power nullification via genesis tech that protects him from kryptonite, the golden form would just be another method he can use

The story in question specifically mentions that he can just temporarily deplete his superpowers to become immune to Kryptonite specifically for a few minutes, if I remember correctly, but you can mention that in his weaknesses section if you wish.

 

[GeneralSol16]

Okay. That seems fine to me then

I've to clarify you this.
Those two supporting scans ARE NOT from the Rebirth Continuity, but from Post-Death Metal/Infinite Frontier/whatever it's called the current continuity.
That same continuity that's a mixture of Pre, Post and Flashpoint continuities, in which Clark could time travel by himself in one of them, and Clark is now Way stronger and faster now than before.

Cross scaling between two completely different versions and power levels is a very no no situation.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Agreed. He has been powered up a lot in his current continuity.

Do we have a profile page or key for that btw?

 

[Ozcantabak]

Yes. Agreed. He has been powered up a lot in his current continuity.

Do we have a profile page or key for that btw?

His Post-Warworld Apocalypse key, i think covers stuff from Infinite Frontiers.

 

[Rgerdeena]

His Post-Warworld Apocalypse key, i think covers stuff from Infinite Frontiers.

Infinite frontier started in 2021 and warworld apocalypse happened in 2022 so it definitely covers infinite frontier stuff

 

[GeneralSol16]

Yes. Agreed. He has been powered up a lot in his current continuity.

Do we have a profile page or key for that btw?

Noup
This is from Post the last Dark Crisis event, which also changed the Verse and characters, being the reason why a lot of stories were retconned.

We should have a new page for Clark, maybe "Post-Dark Crisis" or something like that.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Noup
This is from Post the last Dark Crisis event, which also changed the Verse and characters, being the reason why a lot of stories were retconned.

We should have a new page for Clark, maybe "Post-Dark Crisis" or something like that.

Dark crisis didn’t alter the characters, it just added more universes to the multiverse as the end result

 

[GeneralSol16]

Dark crisis didn’t alter the characters, it just added more universes to the multiverse as the end result

Say that to the restructuration of the history of the characters after said event.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Say that to the restructuration of the history of the characters after said event.

DC database says nothing about the characters themselves being altered in it’s long explanation of dark crisis, and no offense but unless you have scans or any form of proof, I trust dc database more than you