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Ben 10 AP & LS Revision (Alien Force & Ultimate Alien)

Apollonir.Scale said:
While talking with Greenshifter on Discord, we pretty much agreed that the phrase "At most 4-B" would be a good choice for Alien Force characters.
Click to expand...
Why would it?
There's no way for AF to scale consistently to UA, we've statements of aliens getting stronger overtime, and all of the feats above Tier 5 are from UA and OV, same with the scaling.

Greenshifter's arguments are kinda ass (no offense), especially since he puts all of Ben's aliens at the same Tier, Molestache isn't as strong as ******* Four Arms.
 
GeneralSol16 said:
Why would it?
There's no way for AF to scale consistently to UA, we've statements of aliens getting stronger overtime, and all of the feats above Tier 5 are from UA and OV, same with the scaling.

Greenshifter's arguments are kinda ass (no offense), especially since he puts all of Ben's aliens at the same Tier, Molestache isn't as strong as ******* Four Arms.
Click to expand...
High doesn't find it logical that there would be such a huge increase, from 6-A to 4-B. But that's because of the classic series and the lack of tier 4 features in the AF.
 
By the way, I wrote it wrong. Because of the statement that Vilgax's team is 10x stronger, AF characters will be at least 5-C, at most 4-B. Of course, I'm not sure if we should only do this for AF season 2. Highbeerd is in one episode of AF season 2. I can't remember if it scaled to anything.
 
Apollonir.Scale said:
Okay. We've pretty much agreed on a rating of "at least High 6-A, possibly 4-B" for Alien Force characters. What do you think of this update? Is it acceptable?
Click to expand...
uh why high 6-A not 5-C/5-B? i remember that AF aliens are 10X stronger than OS
 
Apollonir.Scale said:
Okay. We've pretty much agreed on a rating of "at least High 6-A, possibly 4-B" for Alien Force characters. What do you think of this update? Is it acceptable?
Click to expand...
But why possibly 4-B? There's no way to scale AF era characters to play level, only UA.
OV aliens should be 4-B+
 
Apollonir.Scale said:
By the way, the reason I wrote 10x in the Spidermonkey section is because it was stated that Ultimate Humungousaur is 10x stronger than base Humungousaur. I thought this could be true for all Ultimates. If you don't agree with this idea, I can delete the 10x post.
Click to expand...
I don't find any reasonable proof for why the 10x multiplier holds true for all the ultimates, unless stated otherwise.
 
Hellformer said:
10x gap above OS via scaling to AF Vilgax (S3 onwards)
5.71 Exatons = High 6-A
57.1 Exatons = 5-C
Click to expand...
Ah, I see.

To clarify, the Tick Feat Calc is for the total energy applied to the entire surface area of the Tick Body, which is 2.393e28 Joules, from 3.758e+23 J/m².

In the case of aliens able to damage fist size pieces of the shell, shouldn't this just mean that the energy of the punch is at least (3.758e+23 J/m² * surface area of attack)?

If an average fist surface area is 0.043 square meters. Let's assume an alien fist is at most 5x that with 0.215 m^2.

In turn, the minimum energy to break the shell with a punch is at least (3.758e+23 J/m² * 0.215) = 8.0797e+22 Joules.
 
Firestorm808 said:
Ah, I see.

To clarify, the Tick Feat Calc is for the total energy applied to the entire surface area of the Tick Body, which is 2.393e28 Joules, from 3.758e+23 J/m².

In the case of aliens able to damage fist size pieces of the shell, shouldn't this just mean that the energy of the punch is at least (3.758e+23 J/m² * surface area of attack)?

If an average fist surface area is 0.043 square meters. Let's assume an alien fist is at most 5x that with 0.215 m^2.

In turn, the minimum energy to break the shell with a punch is at least (3.758e+23 J/m² * 0.215) = 8.0797e+22 Joules.
Click to expand...
Do we apply this to all of fiction though? Like a character having a certain amount of durability (lets say X), and then other character is able to damage only a certain area of his body (lets say A), therefore the attack potency = A*X?
I've never seen such kind of evaluation in fiction, so could you please confirm it?
 
This is all derived from the given calc. It says that each m^2 of the Tick can tank 3.758e+23 J without breaking.

It's on our Inverse Square Law Page. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Inverse_Square_Law

Let's say a building wall can tank a blast distributed along its surface without breaking. Then we have a small punch being able to break a small part of this wall.

Blast Energy/Area of Wall < Punch Energy/Area of Fist

Feel free to ask other staff about this application.
 
Firestorm808 said:
This is all derived from the given calc. It says that each m^2 of the Tick can tank 3.758e+23 J without breaking.

It's on our Inverse Square Law Page. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Inverse_Square_Law

Let's say a building wall can tank a blast distributed along its surface without breaking. Then we have a small punch being able to break a small part of this wall.

Blast Energy/Area of Wall < Punch Energy/Area of Fist

Feel free to ask other staff about this application.
Click to expand...
Yeah I get your logic, but the question is, have we previously applied this kind of logic in any other fictional verse?
 
Hellformer said:
Yeah I get your logic, but the question is, have we previously applied this kind of logic in any other fictional verse?
Click to expand...
Yes. It's part of how we do destruction calcs.

In this case, we determined that the Fragmentation Value of the Tick Shell is at least X Joules.
 
Okay I thought about this for some time, the problem with your logic is that Fourarms' fist area isn't as big as Great One's total surface area. Which is why I think its weird to use A*X method (the one elaborated below)
Hellformer said:
Do we apply this to all of fiction though? Like a character having a certain amount of durability (lets say X), and then other character is able to damage only a certain area of his body (lets say A), therefore the attack potency = A*X?
I've never seen such kind of evaluation in fiction, so could you please confirm it?
Click to expand...
AoE based attacks damage only certain area that's been targeted with user's own fist area.

Your logic can be used to calculate durability as explained over here, not AoE based attacks to damage that durability.
 
Last edited:
To clarify, you are suggesting that the total energy of the punch is at least the total blast energy exerted over the entire surface of the shell?
 
Firestorm808 said:
To clarify, you are suggesting that the energy of a punch over the fist area is equal to the total blast energy exerted over the entire surface of the shell?
Click to expand...
Yes because attack potency measures the energy delivered by an attack, not the size of the destruction it causes, so cracking only a portion of The Great One’s shell does not reduce the required energy level. Since Great One has High 6-A durability, meaning its shell can withstand forces of that magnitude, therefore Fourarms’ fist must have produced at least High 6-A worth of energy to overcome that durability and crack the shell.
 
Don't OS Ben's aliens also scale to Armodrillo's race too? Since his aliens are normally portrayed to be above regular members of the race, even at that point.
 
Hellformer said:
Elaborate
Click to expand...
During the 1st Tier 6/5 upgrade thread, it was accepted that OS Ben's aliens scale to average talpaedan since they can contend with other and better specimens of stronger races.
vsbattles.com

Ben 10: High 6-A, possibly Low 5-B? upgrade.

So currently everyone scales to Armodrillo feat which was calc'd to 6-C. I re-calc'd this and goop feat which gave me high 6-A as a result and there are several other calcs which are high 6-A anyway. Armodrillo feat (2.599386266666667e+28 Joules), 3.868388 times that of Goop pulling back...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
GeneralSol16 said:
During the 1st Tier 6/5 upgrade thread, it was accepted that OS Ben's aliens scale to average talpaedan since they can contend with other and better specimens of stronger races.
vsbattles.com

Ben 10: High 6-A, possibly Low 5-B? upgrade.

So currently everyone scales to Armodrillo feat which was calc'd to 6-C. I re-calc'd this and goop feat which gave me high 6-A as a result and there are several other calcs which are high 6-A anyway. Armodrillo feat (2.599386266666667e+28 Joules), 3.868388 times that of Goop pulling back...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Click to expand...
I can't find that exact statement made by you in that CRT.
 
Hellformer said:
You didn't understand what I meant
Click to expand...
I'm sorry I completely forgot about this.
They stated and was accepted that OS Aliens scale to Talpaedan.
vsbattles.com

Ben 10: High 6-A, possibly Low 5-B? upgrade.

LHowever didn’t cannonbolt destroy the big tick or smthn which is multi continental No one has been seen to be capable of physically harming big tick however. He did survived the internal body explosion that destroyed big tick. So yeah.
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

vsbattles.com

Ben 10: High 6-A, possibly Low 5-B? upgrade.

Or that they would scale to both anyway 🐘
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-high-6-a-possibly-low-5-b-upgrade.164939/post-6390653

vsbattles.com

Ben 10: High 6-A, possibly Low 5-B? upgrade.

Or that they would scale to both anyway 🐘
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

vsbattles.com

If Tsuna was a star buster

If Tsuna destroying the black holes wasn't an outlier, how strong would he be? He destroyed 6 of Enma's black holes, and Daemon Spade and his clones were in front of each one. If I remember correctly Daemon tanked 11 of Enma's stars before he cloned himself.
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
391407
 
So, the actual scaling chain would be:

Classic Era Characters would scale to 6.212682 from upscaling from the average Talpaedan, with AFS1 characters ranging around this same level.
AFS2 Era Characters would be 10x this value as Vilgax gets ten times stronger than his Classicself, as well as possible scaling to UA Era Characters, making him 62.12682 (5-C), possibly 4-B.
UA and OV Era Characters would keep their sold Tier 4 rating.

Although imo, OV Era should scale to ten times UA Era, as now they have gotten way stronger than before, being able to keep up with Anodite Form Gwen, who's superior to all Ultimate Forms, incldilg Ultimate Humungousaur's and Echo Echo
 
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