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The link I sent you should've had some more infinite-d statements.
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The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread
- Thread starter The_Impress
- Start date
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- Tags
- marvel comics
GeneralSol16
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They definitely vary, that's something that has been stated many times throughout their existence.
They scaling to 1-A BS and using older than you statements for them to be that high? Yeah, noup, they don't
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I just read through it and a lot of those were very good. Our site's cosmology blog should use many of those for our High 1-B argument
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Agreed. And as I said, the mystical universe has its own stuff that supports Earth-616 at minimum being Low 1-A/1-A
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How do you think scaling to that should be handled? Like do you think characters like Thor, Hercules, Amora, and Eric Masterson (who all have feats affecting every plane of existence) should scale to Low 1-A/1-A through the mystical universe stuff?
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That can all be figured out once the mystic cosmology verse is done, but on a limb I'd say that Low 1-A could be the best option.
The fact that basically all the mystic principalities are on the same level of existence as Slorioth is pretty obviously indicating that they are all on his level of being beyond dimensionality, which by our definition is Low 1-A. That in addition to all the "beyond space-time" stuff the Dark Dimension has.
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What are everyone's thoughts on normal Heralds scaling to those feats, or do you think we should leave it as just gods? The way I see it, either gods and High Heralds (Sentry, Thanos, 2nd key Silver Surfer, maybe Ultron) scale to High 1-B while normal Heralds probably end up at like High 3-A or Low 2-C; or everyone currently 3-C or Low 1-C scales to Thor and ends up at High 1-B (or 2-A if we decide infinite planes means 2-A). In the first case, there would be some solid and consistent downscaling from Skyfathers and Hell Lords for many of those characters. I will begin feat gathering for this, and I will look at both feats to establish tiers and statements/feats regarding scaling to Thor and other gods. Anyone who wants to add to my sandbox feel free
GeneralSol16
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It seems more logical imo.
We should see how the Story itself interprets the cosmology in that comic if not given any info about it.
But maybe a 2-A level feat for Peak Thor could work too, but that's more debatible.
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Anyone got any recommendations for good comic book stories or runs that I can buy in the form of a omnibus? Want to buy some books for Christmas this year, but I don't know where to start.
So far the Omnibuses I have currently are Donny Cates' Cosmic Ghost Rider run, Venom 2018, and King in Black.
So far the Omnibuses I have currently are Donny Cates' Cosmic Ghost Rider run, Venom 2018, and King in Black.
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The 3-Cs normal (heralds) going up to tier 2 or 1 makes no sense, unless we create another tier 3 or 4 for scaling cosmic characters like Ronan, Nova Richard, Quasar, Captain Marvel ect. I'm saying this because your sandbox mentions them, and I don't think they have that kind of feats to scale to that point.
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I don't think there is any narrative justification for a split like that in-universe. It makes no sense to just make up a tier and say "these characters scale to Silver Surfer but at this arbitrary midpoint we made up." Either they scale to someone or they don't. It's prety ridiculous to have Ikaris, Gladiator, and Silver Surfer all scale to Thor, but to three different arbitrary tiers for Thor. Beta Ray Bill, Silver Surfer, Gladiator, Ronan, and Quasar were all stated to be on the same tier of power, which is a statement we use to scale Beta Ray Bill to Gladiator (despite BRB being Low 1-C and Gladiator being 3-C) and Silver Surfer. In universe, this is all treated as the same general level of power. I am very strongly opposed to any form of a 3-C/Low 1-C split.
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Then we should scale Captain Marvel above Beta Ray Bill, Silver Surfer, Gladiator, Ronan, and Quasar based on Quasar calling Binary omnipotent and far more powerful than himself, or Base Ms. Marvel breaking vibranium while Norman stating that not even Sentry and Ares could do it.
As someone who read that comic it's pretty clear that Ronan is only on that group because of the universal weapon and it's hax not because he is physically or in anyway on their level of raw power.
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Tbh the scaling is kinda confusing for me. Low 2-C makes sense and some of the Tier 1 stuff also makes sense. But I don't get the Low 1-C stuff for Thor. The way its described now all of the Asgardians should be Low 1-C, but that isn't the case.
Tbf, Sentry is a very unique case. His power specifically varies based on mental state. Sentry at his weakest is below her, but higher at their respective peaks.
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Well yeah, he's only Herald Tier with the Universal Weapon. That's what we already have, he is High Tier physically and Herald Tier with Universal Weapon. And yeah that looks like a good feat for Binary, she should scale to Quasar based on that if there are a few other feats statements to back it up. We already have her at 3-C anyway. As for "above," I don't think that's necessarily the case. Whether Thor or Silver Surfer is stronger depends on the author writing, but they are very consistently shown to be in the same weight class. Ikon considering all those characters to be Alpha-Plus means that they are in the same general tier, not that they are necessarily exactly equal. Silver Surfer > Binary > Quasar works no problem at all. That Vibranium statement is pretty good as well, but as @Legion350 mentioned, Sentry probably varies more than any other character in Marvel. The Sentry Norman was used to dealing with was much weaker than his full power, as when the Void was unleashed during Siege he pretty much shit himself and thought that literally nobody could stop it, including Thor.
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I know since I was the one who made it the thread for that, and in that thread it was only accepted as "possibly" and honestly I had way better arguments than a single statement of being on same class.
How much are they actually consistent with tier 1 or 2 aside absortion feats? I doubt is a good idea to bring absortion into this because Carol absorbed the phoenix force and became higher dimensional.,
I mean being slightly higher while still on the same weight class is hardly what calling one "omnipotent" mean, I'm sure Quasar wouldn't call Silver Surfer omnipotent.
He also mentioned Ares and how even both together wouldn't pull that off so that's still god level stuff, I would totally support Carol being Steller LS but scaling to tier 1 is simply too much and I'm a huge Captain Marvel supporter.
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So Herald scaling is already messy as is I agree modern Captain Marvel is herald tier, but idk if that scan works as a support. Unless we're deadset on making all the Heralds casually 1-A I'm against using the Genis-Vell thing to scale her. We already accept abstracts can go below 1-A, but we don't know how powerful he was here. Also, Genis-Vell is a weird character to scale from. He is not always 1-A, it doesn't seem like he's 1-A here either. If he's below his peak and we don't have a gauge for his power level, it's not easy.
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Honestly don't think he was even supposed to be 1-A all his tier is based on a single feat and all the feats before or after are nowhere close to that. Also it's hard to say of he is or not supposed to be tier 1 at this story since the story pretty much starts with him dying. But having been killed by Undone who is supposed to be entropy and omniversal being which is what it's called by Marvel it would not be inconsistent.
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Entropy is an omniversal entity but if the entropy in that comic is an manifestation, it's not a valid way to get Tier 1. Genis-Vell is clearly not at his peak if he's getting beaten by avatar when he scales to peak Eternity. What comic is this from? I need more context.
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No. that's not about Entropy the link i sent is an article about the comic and the villain Undone in it, it's outright calling the undone omniversal and if you see the link it directly mentions the comic itself in the title of the article, it's the Captain Marvel solo run from 2023 written by Alyssa Wong
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I have a question since I think you're the main person working on the Magic pages, why is the version of Thor the heralds scale to Low 1-C? Wouldn't it make more sense to use tier 1 peak at one end and then the herald tiering as the other? Because in the God Physiology page I saw information implying avatars or some form of descent.
I'm not saying Undone isn't an omniversal being, so are the abstracts, they just take manifestations when they interact. We would need to see Captain Marvel against an abstract in their form for it to be a 1-A feat.
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I don't think you understand, the article is specifically about the Captain Marvel comic run where Genius vell is killed resurrected and fights Captain Marvel which is what I linked before, there is no manifestation because the Undone only showed up on this specific comic run where the article mentions it's omniversal. And Undone's form shows up on the final chapters to fight Captain Marvel.
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Because one of Thor's feats scales to Asgard itself. I personally disagree with Low 1-C Heralds but that's how it currently is
Excellence616
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Hulk and Thor are too variable to scale to and both having 1-A as high ends. The reason why Thor and Hulk are different from Heralds shouldn't be a discussion at all.
The best solution was to make Thor and Hulk too variable to scale to but Impress told me that some characters scaling solely depends on Thor which is very true.
The problem rn is how to treat those characters that scale only to Thor.
Btw, since we are discussing about 3-C and Low 1-C Heralds, we have Low Heralds (5-B), Mid Heralds (3-C) and High Heralds (Low 1-C). The Low Heralds are already under revision by Impress.
I was one who created the thread for Low 1-C Heralds since God Realms were 5-D at that moment but now they are High 1-B.
Since we have feats of shaking the universe or God realms and Eric feat, i can see High Heralds at High 3-A /2-A.
So Heralds new scaling will be:
But if we are going with the High 3-A/2-A and downscaling Mid Heralds from it, we should list out every Heralds.
The best solution was to make Thor and Hulk too variable to scale to but Impress told me that some characters scaling solely depends on Thor which is very true.
The problem rn is how to treat those characters that scale only to Thor.
Btw, since we are discussing about 3-C and Low 1-C Heralds, we have Low Heralds (5-B), Mid Heralds (3-C) and High Heralds (Low 1-C). The Low Heralds are already under revision by Impress.
I was one who created the thread for Low 1-C Heralds since God Realms were 5-D at that moment but now they are High 1-B.
Since we have feats of shaking the universe or God realms and Eric feat, i can see High Heralds at High 3-A /2-A.
So Heralds new scaling will be:
- High Heralds will be High 3-A/2-A
- Mid Heralds will downscale from High Heralds High 3-A/2-A
- And whatever tier that will be accepted for Low Heralds.
But if we are going with the High 3-A/2-A and downscaling Mid Heralds from it, we should list out every Heralds.
The crossroads feat was not rejected and even if it was the argument for it and against it would be poor. The feat itself is High 1-B iirc and Thor "Grave peril to Infinity and Eternity" is a 1-A feat.
GeneralSol16
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We should REALLY stop cross scaling absolutely everything, like, damn.
Half of these characters don't even have a feat remotely close to that level aside from "He fought this dudd, who fought this other dude, who was stated to be comparable to this other dude who performed a Tier 2/1 feat", it just complicates everything on an absurd degree.
Carol, for example, has both consistent scaling as well as Tier 3 feats, and dudes below her have Tier 4 feats, that's good. But justdienscaling everyone from 5 feats done by different characters with a larger timegap than our age just makes everything ridiculous and kinda bullshit.
Half of these characters don't even have a feat remotely close to that level aside from "He fought this dudd, who fought this other dude, who was stated to be comparable to this other dude who performed a Tier 2/1 feat", it just complicates everything on an absurd degree.
Carol, for example, has both consistent scaling as well as Tier 3 feats, and dudes below her have Tier 4 feats, that's good. But justdienscaling everyone from 5 feats done by different characters with a larger timegap than our age just makes everything ridiculous and kinda bullshit.
Excellence616
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No one is cross scaling.
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This makes sense to me.
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If we are keeping Thor as being separate from normal Heralds, I think we should do that with Hercules too, as he is a god as well. So I think that gods can be High 1-B via their own feats. Hercules has his own Axis Mundi/Yggdrasil feat, but there is also the feat of him and Thor shaking the heavens.
If we keep Thor as being higher than normal, who should be allowed to scale to him. I think that Sentry should, as its indicated that the Void is far above Thor's full power. I think that Thanos should, as in addition to being much more powerful than Thor, he has a solid showing against Odin (this was rejected before, but I think being above High 1-B Thor and below High 1-B Odin is good). Thanos also fought Power Gem-amped bloodlusted Thor. Thor earlier in this event, before getting the Power Gem, soloed Beta Ray Bill, Silver Surfer, and Adam Warlock, and this is the version Eternity himself was worried about. I don't think the "peril to Eternity" feat is necessarily High 1-B, as he wasn't a threat to Eternity himself, but rather the stuff inside of Eternity, so I figure this is similar to the "inner contents of Eternity" we used to have Odin scaling to.
I think the Eric feat would be a good one to establish 2-A for Heralds, since Eric is kinda shown to just be normal Herald level in strength (he had some trouble fighting Gladiator). There are a good number of shaking an infinite universe feats, so I think High 3-A is a solid low end.
As for the Crossroads feat, should that just be added to Hulk's High 1-B end?
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What scaling specifically do you have a problem with? If Character A is consistently shown to be comparable to Characer B who performed a Tier 2 feat, I see no reason why Character A shouldn't scale to that. Scaling chains can be an issue, but to my knowledge nothing we've talked about has more than like 3 links. Like I don't see a problem with Beta Ray Bill --> Quasar --> Captain Marvel.
GeneralSol16
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That's not what you all are doing.
For example, that feat from Eric is being downscaled to every other Herald Tier, just because, and planning to make Quasar 2-A because he didn't die when fighting another dude. When the entire page is made up by scaling chains rather than by actual feats, it's where everyone starts to be Tier 1.
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That is a terrible misrepresentation of what I am doing. Eric Masterson performed a 2-A feat. Eric Masterson fought on equal grounds with Gladiator, and Quasar is directly stated to be comparable to Gladiator, which is obviously different than simply "he didn't die when fighting another dude" like you are implying. That is a very simple and reasonable scaling chain. If you have a problem with Quasar scaling to this level then address that scaling, but don't act like I am doing ridiculous scaling chains at all comparable to the joke scaling chain we have on the rules page. Frankly it doesn't matter if Quasar have Tier 2 feats or not, as long as he consistently scales to someone who does.
GeneralSol16
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Same energy.
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Ok that's obviously not the same thing at all. It looking like you have a problem with scaling in general. If three people on a scaling chain is insane to you, then what are you proposing here?
GeneralSol16
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Just scaling when someone has feats at a similar level as the other character.
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Sure but that doesn't always work either. Ultron has no feats above like City level, so should we downgrade him? If someone like Quasar is consistently treated as being at a certain level, we can just ignore that because they don't have similar direct feats.
GeneralSol16
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That's different.
You're scaling chaining a lot of other characters from that feat, something that Ultron does not.
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Isn't Gladiator among the most variable herald-tiers? Doesn't sound like he should be the crutch for such a broad scaling chain. Also, Quasar wasn't confident that his shield could withstand an explosion strong enough to consume a planet.
Excellence616
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The more we think of a solution for Heralds, more problem comes up
Which are still High 3-A
I can see Thanos on Skyfather level. Not sure about Sentry
Iirc, a single Infinity Stone vary
1% of 1-A is still 1-A. Regardless, Skyfathers have nothing on anything above High 1-B.
Yeah, High 3-A feat is consistent enough.
Hulk's reasons for 1-A isn't clear enough on his profile, the fact that most some images on his profile are broken and he is missing three keys and abilities/resistance, i plan on revamping his profile by next year. Crossroads feat would be added as support.
We can scale Gladiator to someone but can't scale someone from him.
And the Quasar part, Marvel/Dc inconsistency type shii.
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We can't scale from fighting him, but what about statements? If someone is stated to be in the same class of power as Gladiator, would that not be enough?
Yeah, my main point was that this was a Thor amped above a Thor already well above Heralds
I don't think this is a 1% of 1-A situation. Like this wouldn't have hurt Eternity, just the matter that makes him up. Odin would upscale this feat anyway, since he is stated to be more powerful than every Asgardian combined.
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