Genshin Low 2-C For Everyone Need To Go

[Weaver261]

This thread is for this crt.

(2 STAFF NEED) Genshin Low 2-C Downgrade

I took a break for a while and while I am gone, I saw neuvillete Low 2-C? What is this bs? I checked the upgrade thread, it was filled was misinformations and yet it passed? What's going on? So, I will debunk why genshin Low 2-C is not possible for now and why it's not universal in this thread...

vsbattles.com

I had to make the downgrade thread because of the wrong upgrade that happened recently which upgrade all shades and dragon soverigns to Low 2-C. @Antvasima gave me the permission to continue the discussion in Staff Discussion.

For those who are unfamiliar with Genshin Impact settings, here is a basic run down of the cosmology.
Genshin story mainly revolves around a planet inside a universe. That planet has a continent called Teyvat and that's where most events happen. There're also other planets outside Teyvat like Skrik's home planet. Since our main topic is whether Primordial One can influence universally or not, we need to dive a bit into the history.

When Teyvat planet was created, it was ruled by the dragon king, Nibelung.
But after Nibelung left the planet, Primordial One came to the planet, changed the whole planet from the very foundation and placed a protective barrier around the planet called "The False Sky" by using its own egg shell (since it was born from an egg).

Nicole: Teyvat's three moons and their goddesses were brought into being by the will of Nibelung, the then-ruler of Teyvat.
Nicole: But when the Heavenly Principles (Primordial One) came, they changed the world completely, down to its very foundations.
- Nod Krai Act VI

"When the Doves Held Branches"
When the eternal throne of the heavens (Primordial One) came, the world (Teyvat) was made anew. Then the true lord, the Primordial One, came forth and did battle against the seven terrifying sovereigns, dragon-lords of the old world. The Primordial One created shining shades of itself, and the number of these shades was four.

"On Phanes, or The Primordial One"
The Primordial One may have been Phanes. It had wings and a crown, and was birthed from an egg, androgynous in nature. But for the world to be created, the egg's shell had to be broken. However, Phanes, the Primordial One, used the eggshell (False Sky) to separate the "universe" and the "microcosm of the world (Teyvat)."
- Before Sun and Moon

And Primordial One battled with the planet's race, Dragons, for 40 years with Four Shining Shades it created. After Primordial One is done with the war, they started creating human realm and humanity. Humanity can be happy under their rule if they followed only one rule which is not harness the power of Abyss. The whole point of protective barrier is to prevent Abyss around Teyvat planet from pouring inside.

"The Year of the Ark's Opening"
The Primordial One had a sacred plan for humans. As long as they were happy, it too rejoiced. // note - This will be important later.

"The Year After the Ark's Opening"
The people worked the land, and so came the first harvest. The people mined, and so reaped the first crop of precious ore. The people gathered, and the first poems were written.

"The Year of Jubilee"
If there was hunger, the heavens would bring down food and rain. If there was poverty, the earth would bring forth its riches. If melancholy were to spread, the heavens would reply with their voices. The one taboo was to succumb to temptation. But the path to temptation had already been sealed.
- Before Sun And Moon

Now that we all have clearing understanding of Genshin history, lets start with the downgrade.
The Tiering System FAQ has this for Low 2-C Question

Q: When is the destruction or creation of a universe or timeline ranked as Low 2-C (Universe level+)?​

A: As the Tiering System specifies, the affected area either has to be a large four dimensional space; most commonly, a spacetime continuum of universal size.

The latter means that all of the three-dimensional space of the universe has to be destroyed or created, at each moment in time. I.e. the entire timeline has to be destroyed.

To be universal+ in tier, you have to affect universal size space time continuum. Istaroth, one of the shining shades of Primordial One, is the one where the Low 2-C chain scaling started. And her profile has this.

Attack Potency: Universe level+ (The Ruler of Time Istaroth is the concept of time itself, encompassing the entire temporal dimension, governing and embodying the entire timeline of the universe across past, present and future. She can manipulate the timeline at will, just like what she did to Inazuma by changing the entire timeline of it.

For Istaroth to be Low 2-C, she has to influence the entire universe with her time concept. But this is where it became a problem.

As you might have realized by now by reading the history of Teyvat, Primordial One only ruled one planet that Teyvat is on. There's no proof that Primordial One created the universe, affected the universe or even destroyed the universe. Also his creation, Istaorth is also not shown any feat affecting entire universe with her concept.

The previous upgrade, 4D existence for Shades is accepted due to Istaroth being Time concept on a universal scale. But her concept was never shown to influence entire universe. And even the creator of Istaroth, Primordial One has never shown any feat influencing entire universe. Or Teyvat planet is also not stated to have seperate space-time.
To qualify for space-time continuum and you need one of those as per standard.

Qualifications​

In order for something to qualify as a proper space-time continuum in regard to some feat usually one of two following two criteria should be met:

1. It is explicitly stated to be a "Space-time continuum" or something equivalent.
2. It fulfills the standards for being a universe-sized realm (see the first section of this page) and all of its time is also involved in its feat. I.e. the structure involved in the feat is the timeline of an entire universe.

Since Teyvat planet was never stated or shown as a seperate space-time compared to the outside universe and Istaroth or Primordial One power affecting entire universe was never shown and stated, Low 2-C is nowhere to be found here.

Voyager, an instellar outsider, was able to see the authorities of Four Shades shackling Teyvat planet from outside meaning the outer universe wasn't shackled by four shades concepts.

But when the voyager returned once more, the world she remembered had been utterly changed.
The bones of the earth had been bound beneath fourfold shackles, and the soft white radiance of the sky had been split into seven immutable hues.
Like drifting smoke had the lord of dragons vanished, and the Winged One's throne now ruled the radiance of the three moons.
- Finale of Deep Galleries

Although there's one statement saying Istaroth is the mother of 14 billion years and giving birth to herself, it is not explained any further. And that contradict with the history where it was created by Primordial One. So, we can discard it until it is explained more.

The Primordial One created shining shades of itself, and the number of these shades was four.
- before sun and moon

Prayer Song IV: Laimelea (Istaroth), Mother of Time
O pure and eternal Mother of Time, sovereign who was never born and who shall never die,
You create all and destroy all. You remember all and allow them to be forgotten.
You who in the moment of your birth, also gave birth to yourself, O supreme mother,
- Hymns of the far north : Prayer Song IV

Question 6: A father has twelve children, each then giving birth to sixty daughters of different appearances. Of them, thirty are pale and thirty are dark. The whole family, knowing not death, will only fade away. Who is the father?
Answer: The answer is the year. The people of Byakuyakoku may find the part about sixty pale or dark granddaughters a bit confusing. But everything will start to make sense once they crack Question 4.
There used to be a sequel to this riddle in ancient times. It roughly said that every granddaughter would give birth to twelve descendants, and each of them would then have sixty children. Every such child later would give birth to another sixty, who would go on to have children of their own. This would continue until at last, all the offspring would together give birth to the one and only primordial child — Tokoyo Ookami (Istaroth), the "mother" of fourteen billion years.
Watatsumi Omikami forbade people from spreading this riddle.
- Byakuyakoku Collection Vol 5

Since we get Istaroth 4D out of the way, I will debunk the universal justifications that previous upgrade made.

The previous upgrade claimed Istaroth and Primordial One's power can influence entire universe because of musica mundana being universal law. Now what is musica mundana? Muscia mundana is the belief of Ancient Fontaine nation people of Teyvat where they thought Musica Mundana operates on universal scale quoting this scan and this scan. You can read the whole thing here.

So basically, Musica Mundana is explained like this.

Imagine a harp, where every physical entity in the world corresponds to a single one of its fine strings... Magnificent music comes not from a single string, but the resonance of all strings... This is the music we call Musica Mundana......

Since Musica mundana is stated to operate on universal scale and Primordial One is called as Master Of Fortuna, Primordial One = Universal Scale. Thus, Istaroth = Universal scale. This is the claim of previous upgrade.
But the whole Musica Mundana and Fortuna thing is just a wrong belief of Ancient Fontaine people as concluded by newer generation's researchs.

In ancient Fontaine, some thought that Fortuna, which ruled the world, was woven from countless fibers, like the strings of a harp. Strings that resonate with the majestic music would bring happiness to all, while discord would destroy the fabric of the universe.
- Lightless Silk String

Regarding "Fortuna"... Myth, proverbs, and poetry are all that we have compiled so far in connection to "Fortuna." These findings deviate significantly from initial expectations... At best, they could be described as vague inferences and a priori assertions, bereft of quantifiability or scientific rigor. They appear exceedingly rudimentary and primitive when compared to the world-formula. Furthermore......As expected, this seems to be an attempt to make up for some shortfall. The ancients even made no small amount of errors in their selection of materials. This was unavoidable... Aside from analysis of the will and the "Seal of Chymical Marriage," there was hardly any utility to be found... When faced with the fact that the ancients were deceived by such falsehoods for a thousand years, one can only wonder if it was a matter of faith or folly...
- Tower of Ipsissimus : Investigation Log

Remember the harp?

"Once upon a time, the titan craftsman (Primordial One) of the skies once wove the destinies of all living beings, the golden harp their instrument of fate."
"That was the divine plan of the heavens. If it were followed, the entire world would usher happiness in."
- Etherlight Spindlelute

This divine plan is the sacred plan from Year of Ark Opening

"The Year of the Ark's Opening"
The Primordial One had a sacred plan for humans. As long as they were happy, it too rejoiced.
- Before Sun and Moon

Since my opposition also agreed that Musica Mundana = Golden Strings of fate, this clearly indicate the fate Primordial One weaved with golden harp is only for Teyvat planet after their conlonization of the planet from the dragons. To prove that further, Skirk, someone from another planet have contacted with Abyss which is something that's strictly prohitbited on Teyvat by Primordial One.

"The people of your planet once relied on their great adaptability to make contact with the Abyss, and even after death, the lingering power they carried retains some... trace records of this. That power is similar in essence to my own."
"Your civilization coexisted with the Abyss. Though none ever used it directly, each and every one of you was tainted in some way."
- Sutarlogi to Skirk

To solidify my points more, Primordial One's motives and actions go in opposite direction with the claim of Primordial One being the universal law.

The universe is fated to die and slowly dying.

"I have seen the lightless end, tearing through star clusters like a spindle among silken threads."
"I have seen how the cold tide of chaos drowns out all songs, so that good and evil alike vanish into silence."
"And yet, my kind, gentle king, will you still refuse to abandon your people?"
"Forsake this world, fated for ruin, and journey with me beyond the stars."
- Finale of the deep galleries : Voyager to Nibelung

Charting countless peoples and civilizations fated to perish, pondering the ultimate truths of the cosmos in that eternal darkness.

"O friend from a distant world, I thank you for imparting these truths from beyond the skies."
"But though in your eyes they may seem ignorant creatures, to me, they are the very meaning of this universe."
"If the tide of oblivion must come, then let my bones be the bulwark that shields this realm."

As the universe gradually grew dim, and all stars and stars known as suns were extinguished one by one, everyone agreed to call it the Star of Scorpio.

"Many stars across the cosmos have gone out. I do not know how much time is left," Octavia said, "so I wanted to come back to see you."

Maybe the universe has been constantly trying to infiltrate Teyvat, or maybe a higher power (Primordial One) created borders (False Sky) to protect this world.

There's literally nothing outside of Teyvat but Abyssal Energies
But Primordial One wanted to prevent the entropic destruction of Teyvat. That's why they created the fake sky barrier from his egg shell.

The Primordial One may have been Phanes. It had wings and a crown, and was birthed from an egg, androgynous in nature. But for the world to be created, the egg's shell had to be broken. However, Phanes, the Primordial One, used the eggshell to separate the "universe" and the "microcosm of the world."
- Before Sun and Moon

Realistically speaking, however, if a profound universe full of life exists, why hasn't any of that life made contact with Teyvat?
Maybe the universe has been constantly trying to infiltrate Teyvat, or maybe a higher power created borders to protect this world.
- Narwhal Description

But in other worlds, the subjects of astrological study are the solar ecliptic energies, the various lunar energies of the satellites, the will-energy of the celestial rulers of the planets, the scattered interference energy of distant stars, and the dark energy that suffuses the pitch-black cosmos. Of course, it's not like these things don't exert influence on our planet — they have merely been greatly weakened by a giant sky-shroud.
- Little witch and the undying fire vol 2

This proved why Musica Mundana is just a wrong belief of anicent people and how Primordial One can't be the master of the laws of the universe.

In conclusion, Istaroth time concept was never stated or shown to affect entire universe. Primordial One was also never shown or stated to affect entire universe and the lore goes against the very idea of that upgrade. There's also no proof for Teyvat planet to be seperate space-time. The opposition only proofs for the upgrade were just flowery language scans and headcanon theories with the basis of Musica Mundana being 100% true while there're scans stating otherwise. With that Four shades should be back to 4-A with Istaroth only being 2-C via Environmental Destruction as before. Dragon Sovergins also should go back to 4-A. Two staffs agreed to this. Thanks for your time.

Agree : @Firestorm808 @Vietthai96 @Antvasima @TWILIGHT-OP
Disgaree : @DarkDragonMedeus @Reiner04
Neutral :

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

This is not an appropriate way to speak about someone, @Unqver. Also this is a staff-only thread, and posting here without an admin’s permission is not allowed.
@Vietthai96, @Antvasima could one of you please remove the post above?

 

[MSahla]

I'm sure Antvasima has given me permission to comment here. I'll provide my response as someone who opposes this later.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm sure Antvasima has given me permission to comment here.

That is correct, yes.

 

[MSahla]

Oh boy, let's start it again, shall we..

Spoiler: why you shouldn't agree to this

First of all, I want to say that this CRT doesn't debunked anything at all. There isn't a single compelling argument or evidence to debunk this Low 2-C and all of it is just a merely hypothetical or what ifs based on the previous crt, and basically saying "if he can do that, then why don't he do this? If he truly can do that, then this won't happen". Their arguments are Arguments from Beliefs, thats literally one of the fallacies in this wiki or in general.

He claims that the Heavenly Principles and the Four Shades don't have Universal Framework Laws, even though it's consistently stated in-game that they do, and I've proven it multiple times.

The OP never once refuted or disproved that; he simply doesn't believe they have them because he always thinks hypothetically, like, "If he could do that, then he should have done this." "If he could do that, then this wouldn't have happened." "If he could do that, then he should have done this to prevent it from happening."
And with all that, he concludes that they don't have universal laws because they don't do what they say they do.
Which, in no way, disproves the Heavenly Principles and the Four Shades have universal laws.
I already have several pieces of evidence that consistently said that they do have universal framework laws. However, they refuse to believe it because of their hypothetical thinking, "If he can do that, then this shouldn't happen; he should be able to do this," and so on.

I just want to say that it doesn't make sense if you agree with this thread based on the OP's reasons.
Because, the reasons in the OP are NOT the primary reason they got 4-D and Low 2-C. So, none of the reasons in the OP refute Low 2-C or 4-D.

One the biggest reason they got 4-D and Low 2-C comes from Istaroth. In short, The Ruler of Time, Istaroth, is "Time" itself. This means, Istaroth is the entire Temporal Dimension itself and also has complete authority over Time or the Timeline. According to the FAQ, Time is an uncountably infinite set of snapshots of a space. Therefore, Istaroth would qualify for HDE 4D and L2C. And has already been summarized in this CRT.

If they wants to debunk the Low 2-C and HDE, they must proves themselves that Istaroth is literally not "Time" itself, which is, Impossible because the game have already confimed that she's literally "Time" itself many many times.

O pure and eternal Mother of Time, sovereign who was never born and who shall never die,
You create all and destroy all. You remember all and allow them to be forgotten.
You who in the moment of your birth, also gave birth to yourself, O supreme mother,
You are the one stillness within the endless flow, the one outsider in the sacred courtyard of the gods.
May you protect the four imprisoned moons.
You are the one outsider in the sacred courtyard of the gods, the one stillness within the endless flow.
O supreme mother, who in the moment of your own birth also gave birth to yourself,
You remember all and allow them to be forgotten. You create all and destroy all.
O sovereign who shall never die and who was never born, pure and eternal Mother of Time!
Prayer Song IV: Laimelea, Mother of Time

Spoiler: Regarding Musica Mundana

Regarding "Musica Mundana/Golden String"

First of, we must know and differentiate that theres two musics, What is this "musics?"
Musica Mundana and Musica Humana are the ancient remurian terms or concept to described the Laws of the Heavens by using "Music" as their analogies. Musica Mundana, a.k.a, the Golden String, is the Music or String that governs the universe, as it is stated that everything in the universe operates according to this rythym/music/order/string.

And there Musica Humana, a.k.a, the Silver String, are basically the Music/Laws of the Mortal realm

世音律即是本源的音律。一切音律因之而起,因之而终。虚假与真实的星象(即内与外、下与上的星象,优恩尼娅会向你们详述这部分内容), 季节与时岁的往复,被划定的元素,宇宙中的一切都遵循这种音律的秩序运行…

(The universal music is the primordial harmony. All harmonies arise from it and return to it. The false and true constellations (that is, the inner and outer, lower and upper constellations—Eunice will elaborate on this aspect for you), the cycles of seasons and years, the defined elements—everything in the cosmos operates according to the order of this harmony....)


……这里,你们应当注意普世音律与法图纳之间的关联。后者包含于前者, 前者却不等同于后者。任何规格与法图纳相近的音律,均可被称作普世音律,因为其自身便与一个世界等同………

正如卡西奥多此前向你们讲授过的那样,我们所谈论的「法图纳」与至尊并无………后者以前者为名,前者实为主宰万物普遍现象的「规则」,即是奴仆口中的「命运」………

(Here, you should note the connection between universal music and Fortuna. The latter is contained within the former, but the former is not identical to the latter. Any musical scale similar to Fortuna can be called universal music, because it is itself equivalent to a world…

As Cassiodor previously taught you, the “Fortuna” we speak of is not the same as the Supreme One… The latter takes its name from the former; the former is actually the “rule” that governs all universal phenomena, which is what the servants call “fate”…)

………凡灵音律即是俗世的音律。凡人与诸神的音律并无不同,均可被归为此类,因为它们的本质都是普世音律敲击灵魂质体的和音…

……想象一架竖琴,世间每一个实体都对应着这竖琴上的一根细微的弦丝 …………那宏伟的乐声并非来自单独的琴弦,而是来自所有琴弦的共振……这样的乐曲便是我们所说的普世音律………

(…The music of mortals is the music of the mortal world. The music of mortals and gods is no different; both can be categorized into this type, because their essence is the harmony of universal music striking the soul…

…Imagine a harp; every entity in the world corresponds to a tiny string on this harp… The magnificent music does not come from a single string, but from the resonance of all the strings… Such music is what we call universal music…) — Harmosts' Note I

So from here, we know the differences between Musica Mundana and Musica Humana.

Musica Mundana = Laws of the Universe
Musica Humana = Laws of the Mortal Realm (Teyvat)

Spoiler: Debunk the claim "They don't have Universal Laws"

Yes, they do have universal laws and whenever they said "universal" Is literally what it means. As it said, anything that disturbs the order of the Musica Mundana/Golden String will destroy a frabric of the cosmos.

This is clearly how the Golden String or Musica Mundana governing the whole universe.

The universal music is the primordial harmony. All harmonies arise from it and return to it. The false and true constellations (that is, the inner and outer, lower and upper constellations—Eunice will elaborate on this aspect for you), the cycles of seasons and years, the defined elements—everything in the cosmos operates according to the order of this harmony...

As Cassiodor previously taught you, the “Fortuna” we speak of is not the same as the Supreme One… The latter takes its name from the former; the former is actually the “rule” that governs all universal phenomena, which is what the servants call “fate”…)

The Master of the Heavens once spun the predestined fate of all beings with golden strings. “That is the sacred plan of the heavens; simply follow it, and universal happiness will be yours.”

“Fortuna” governing all phenomena was woven from infinitely fine “fibers,” much like the strings that compose a harp. Strings resonating with majestic music would bring universal happiness, just as discordant sounds would disrupt the fabric of the cosmos.

The golden insignia that fell from the centaur golem's chest. The melody etched upon the shards of stone attached to it seemed like a fragment from some grand musical drama.
Unified legions, unified melodies, unified rhythms—when the Immortal Legion's commander strikes the notes that dare to shake fate, countless flaming greatswords will follow the commander's melody, becoming the glorious chapter that strikes down the enemies of the God-King.
Some once believed the harmonious melody of eternal bliss would resound throughout the cosmos until the very end of all destinies. Yet harmony too undergoes variation. Ultimately, when the rebellious god-king falls from his throne and the immortal capital crumbles to ruins, for whom will the commander's harp, now bereft of its legions, play its final notes?

That princess of (...) answered thusly:
"You speak of the universal law created in heaven, the divine laws established in the beginning."
"No one has seen the eternal law, yet it governs all."
"One may only bow down and worship Vaana of the heavenly spirits — no arrogation, deception, or trickery is permitted."
"If one dares to imitate the forbidden arts, only calamity awaits at the edge of divine knowledge." — Scroll of Streaming Song, Vol.2

This is a very blantant scan that says the Heavenly Principles are the Laws of the Universe that give rise to the world of Teyvat with its content like the Seven Elements of the Mortal Realms.

Everyone who read this carefully would know that Musica Mundana or the Golden String are governing the universe.

Nothings really contradict my claim, for the purposes of creating Golden String (Musica Mundana/Universal) and the Silver String (Musica Humana/Mortal Realm) are the same; to make all living beings happy.

The string of the world is already said to be Silver String, on which later controls by the Moon Goddess because the Heavenly Principles using these Moon Goddesses as a medium to "weave" the Silver String, a.k.a, the Laws of the Mortal Realm. And everything in the world of Teyvat follows the flow of this thread/string.

霜月的女主人早已用银线纺出了世间一切道路，万物不过是随着纺线起舞」

The mistress of frost-moon has long spun all paths of the world with silver thread; All things merely dance along the thread's course.

The Silver Thread, which is the Laws of the Mortal Realm, was produced from the higher one, which is the Golden String or the Universal one.
The Remurians also explained how "Fate" is closely tied to the quality of the soul.

Musica Humana is the music of the world of mortals. The music of mortals and gods are no different from one another, and both can be classified in this category, for their essence is that of the harmony produced by the Musica Mundana striking the Quality of the Soul......

Every souls we've ever seen in Teyvat is always Silver because they're bound by the Musica humana/Silver String or the Laws of the Mortal Realm

Now heres the difference from the Golden String. In Skirk's Story Quest, we can see how the Traveler's soul as a Descender is golden. This is because the quality of the traveler's soul is tied to/equal to the Musica Mundana, the "Golden String", which the string that governs all Universal Phenomena.

So, we know the differences here, and this is not really that hard to be understand.

Golden String = Musica Mundana = Laws of the Universe = Golden Soul
Silver String = Musica Humana = Laws of the Mortal Realm (Teyvat) = Silver Soul (This string was produced from the golden one).

The OP never differentiate which one is the Universal Laws and which one is the Laws of the Mortal Realm because of these things are slightly different. And all he basically saying is just how the Heavenly Principles control the world of Teyvat.

---

Here in this specifict quote, The False Sky which contains the false constellations and the True Universe which contains the true constellations is still under the dominion of the Musica Mundana or Universal Laws created by the Heavenly Principles as "Master of Fortuna"

The universal music is the primordial harmony. All harmonies arise from it and return to it. The false and true constellations (that is, the inner and outer, lower and upper constellations—Eunice will elaborate on this aspect for you), the cycles of seasons and years, the defined elements—everything in the cosmos operates according to the order of this harmony...

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Regarding OP's claim that said "Fortuna is considered to be false by newgen"
Debunk:
Fortuna is already concluded to be not a false metaphor in the Lunar Arcanum X: The Wheel Fortune. Which was released like 2 months ago. (While the scan he gave that saying it false is from 2 years ago). As said here:

命运之轮

尽管对这个蛋壳中的世界而言并无意义，

但我们所说的「命运」并非伪物的隐喻，

而是在一百四十亿个「年」的漆黑之中，

一切注定发生、与不会发生之事的总和。

别离、相遇、相遇后再度的别离，

新生、毁灭、毁灭后再度的新生，

九百三十亿个属于光的「年」的漆黑中，

一切存在皆有其无人知晓的意义，

否则——这宇宙未免也太过孤独。

这便是我们在占卜牌中所言说，

或不可言说的「命运」。

「命运之轮」无休无止轮转，

但总有些不会被遗忘的东西，

但总有些不会被湮没的东西。

至少，我是愿意如此相信的

The Wheel of Fate
Though meaningless to this world within an eggshell,
the “fate/fortuna” we speak of is no hollow metaphor,
but the sum total of all that is destined to occur—and not occur—
within the pitch-black expanse of one hundred and forty billion “years.”

Partings, meetings, meetings followed by partings,
births, destructions, destructions followed by rebirths—
in the darkness of nine hundred and thirty billion light-years,
every existence holds its own unknown meaning.
Otherwise—this universe would be far too lonely.

This is what we speak of in the divination cards,
or the unspeakable “fate.”

The Wheel of Fate turns ceaselessly,
yet there are things that will never be forgotten,
there are things that will never be lost.
At least, I choose to believe so.

Here "Fortuna" and "Fortune" are not different, both have the same meaning; Fate. It's directly mention that fortuna is not a false metaphor, all things that destined to happen and never be happen throughout 93 billions of Light and 14 billions years of darkness (universe) are the summary of this "fortuna".

After all, "Fortuna" is just a local concept to described the Laws of the Heavens or the Heavenly Principles. Saying Fortuna is false is basically saying the laws of the heavens is false, which we know that isn't correct at all. And whats funny is that, the one who wrote that "Fortuna is false", which Rene de Petrichor, is literally the victims of this "Fortuna" or the Laws of the Heavens.

This is a very blantant scan that says the Heavenly Principles are the Laws of the Universe that give rise to the world of Teyvat with its content like the Seven Elements of the Mortal Realms.

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In the recent new story of the game, Dottore just confirming that The Heavenly Principles' domain are in universal scope in CN. there he said "世界之理" referring to Phanes, which mean "The Principle of the World" Directly reference from Neo-Confucianism.

And the "world" Here cannot and never used to refer a "planet" Context in any chinese usage especially in the philosophical, literary, cultivation, and religious contexts where 世界之理 appears. The word phrase in original philosophy always refer the statement in the universal scope.

If they really wants to say phanes “the principles/laws of the planet”, they will write: 地球之理 (which extremely rare and awkward) 星球法則 | 這顆星球的規則 They never use 世界之理 for that.

Because in Chinese, the word “世界” (world) is much broader than the English word “planet.”

世界 does not mean “planet” — it means an entire realm of existence
In Chinese, 世界 refers to a complete, self-contained reality, not a physical planet.

Examples in Chinese usage:
三千世界 — “three thousand worlds” (Buddhism), meaning many universes.
世界观 — worldview (not planet-view)
另一个世界 — another world/realm.
世界末日 — the end of the world (meaning all existence, not Earth as a planet)

So 世界 naturally describes:
• a cosmos
• a realm
• a dimension
• a universal reality
Thus when you say 世界之理, it can refer to the law that governs the entire cosmos, not just a planet.

理 in classical Chinese philosophy (like Neo-Confucianism) is the cosmic order that gives structure to existence, not a small rule.
It can refer to:
• natural laws
• cosmic structure
• metaphysical truth
• the inherent order of the universe
So 世界 + 理 gives a meaning close to cosmic principles.

Traditional thought treats 世界 as a metaphysical totality
In Daoism, Buddhism, and Chinese cosmology:
世界 = the entire realm of existence.
It includes heaven, earth, cosmic cycles, and all beings

So 世界之理 can naturally describe:
• the laws governing all existence
• the structure of the universe
• the underlying pattern of reality
Which is essentially cosmic principles.

Summary:
世界 = realm / reality / world-system, NOT planet
So 世界之理 naturally expands to:
“the principle that governs an entire world-system”
…and that can easily refer to the cosmos, not a planet.

"But in Honkai Cosmology "世界" are not necessarily universe"
We must know that, despite in the same cosmology as Honkai: Star Rail and Honkai Impact 3rd, Genshin Impact is on a different universe and have completely different terminologies than their neighbours; Honkais.

Voyager, an instellar outsider, was able to see the authorities of Four Shades shackling Teyvat planet from outside meaning the outer universe wasn't shackled by four shades concepts.

The part here about the Voyager isn't relevant to them having or not having the Universal Laws. The quote here already obvious and basically saying that Teyvat was bound to something from external, something from beyond the planet. This doesn't mean the Four Shades are limited nor bound to Teyvat and theres nothing to prove that they do. (They never did prove that once)

The bones of the earth had been bound beneath fourfold shackles

And it is funny that The Voyager's statement even more supporting my arguments.

She once said this to Nibelung:

"I have seen the lightless end, tearing through star clusters like a spindle among silken threads."

This statement of her is clearly referring to this description that i gave earlier about Fortuna and the Golden String:

“Fortuna” governing all phenomena was woven from infinitely fine “fibers,” much like the strings that compose a harp. Strings resonating with majestic music would bring universal happiness, just as discordant sounds would disrupt the fabric of the cosmos.

Translate from CN Version
Official English Version

A slender strand that somehow ended up entangled on your weapon while fighting the All-Devouring Narwhal.
In ancient Fontaine, some thought that Fortuna, which ruled the world, was woven from countless fibers, like the strings of a harp. Strings that resonate with the majestic music would bring happiness to all, while discord would destroy the fabric of the universe

The same strings/thread that told us about Fortuna. Basically, the Golden Thread/String are governing the entire thing through sea of stars. By knowing/reading this thread, the voyager know which world was destined to be perish. Much like Nabu Malikata and Sybilla, who can tell fate of Someone/Kingdom, but didn't know "how" They will face the process that lead them to output of fate

So, the Voyager also helps my Argument

Although there's one statement saying Istaroth is the mother of 14 billion years and giving birth to herself, it is not explained any further. And that contradict with the history where it was created by Primordial One.

We're not forgetting the fact that Istaroth is as old as Time itself, did we? Because she's Omnipresent (temporal omnipresent to be exact), she's Time itself and the embodiment of time.

Some old story context can be change. And after we get this far, Istaroth is more like "Time" given form by the Heavenly Principles. Again, based on that Istaroth's Prayer Song from the Hymns of the Far North.

Spoiler: Regarding "The Four Shades are only to Teyvat"

Believe it or not, they never provided such evidences that said so from the game.

One of their claim also says "Istaroth Omnipresent only within Teyvat's False Sky"
But this is completely false.

In the Volume 2 of the Spring of Hidden Jade, they already stated that the False Sky couldn't stop Istaroth and her Daughter named Zibai who's an Angel and also a White Horse Adeptus.

The mountain people once viewed her as time's daughter, like a white horse leaping from a pure spring, one whom no shackles could bind. Just as it was with her proud mother, so it was with her — no wall or eggshell could bar her path.
The shepherds of the plains once pursued her steps, freeing themselves from the fetters of the wilderness, embarking on a migratory search for the waterweeds, and thus did the golden-white foal blaze the trail for all herds in the land.
The kingdom of the ocean depths once saw her as an emissary, and based on their imagination, they granted her scales and tail plumage, falling down in worship of the light brought by one who was both mother and daughter.

Here, "Eggshell" are referring to the False Sky, because eggshell is basically another word for the False Sky.

"On Phanes, or The Primordial One"
The Primordial One may have been Phanes. It had wings and a crown, and was birthed from an egg, androgynous in nature. But for the world to be created, the egg's shell had to be broken. However, Phanes, the Primordial One, used the eggshell to separate the "universe" and the "microcosm of the world."

Though there is no meaning in this world within an eggshell,
The "fortune" we speak of is not some false metaphor,
In 14 billion "years" of darkness,
It is the sum of all that is destined to happen and all that never will.

Spoiler: Regarding the Low 2-C

Every reasons from the OP ARE NOT the primary reason of why this verse got their Low 2-C to begin with. This Universal Laws are just proving them not limited nor bound to a single planet just like they said.

The Low 2-C coming from The Ruler of Time Istaroth, who are the embodiment of Time itself. That means, she's Temporal Dimension itself.

This is how this wiki treated Temporal Dimension:

Q: How do temporal dimensions impact tiering?​

A: The relationship between the spatial dimensions of a universe and the additional temporal dimension(s) may be visualized as something akin to the frames of a movie placed side-by-side. Basically, the time-like direction may be thought of as a line comprised of uncountably infinitely many points, each of which is a static "snapshot" of the whole universe at any given moment, with the set of all such events comprising the totality of spacetime.

This structure can then be generalized to any number of dimensions, which is why destroying a spacetime continuum is a greater feat than destroying only the contents of the physical universe (Low 2-C, rather than 3-A or High 3-A).

In short: Time can be imagined as a long line made of infinitely many moments.
Each moment is like a frozen picture of the entire universe—everything, everywhere, exactly as it is at that instant.

When you put all those moments together, you get spacetime, which is the complete history of the universe: every place and every moment, all at once.
So:

• One point on the line = one instant (a snapshot of the universe)
• The whole line = all moments combined
• Spacetime = the collection of every snapshot that ever exists

@Furina003 also have explained this here

Istaroth alone is already stated to be "Every Moments" which even more confirming her being Time itself.

"The Third Year of Darkness"
We knew the only one who had not forsaken us as the "Ruler of Time." She was the moment. She was every moment. She was the measure of a thousand winds and the sun and the moon. She was every second of joy, every moment of rage, every instant of longing, every minute of obsession. She was every flash of delirium.
We call her Kairos, or "the ruler of the unchanging world." We dare not speak her true, secret name, and so I pen it here, only once, and in reverse: "Htoratsi."

So, if they want to make this Low 2-C gone, they must prove themselves that Istaroth are not "Time itself and she's not the embodiment of Time itself. Which is impossible because the game have already made clear that she is.

"But she's only limited to Teyvat"
She's not, and i already explain it a lot above. And even we can see here in the God's Limit's trailer where Istaroth's influence can affect an unknown space somewhere in the universe.


Istaroth already have a feats that reached Tier 2 and even higher. Some of her feats are listed in this CRT

To solidify my points more, Primordial One's motives and actions go in opposite direction with the claim of Primordial One being the universal law.

The universe is fated to die and slowly dying.

There's literally nothing outside of Teyvat but Abyssal Energies.

What he said here is pure Hypotheticals and Argument from Belief. He's basically saying "Oh if he stated to be so, then why this happen? If he can do that, then why he didn't do this to prevent it from happening?"

He said such thing in the previous thread

If Istaroth is capable of influnecing the entire universe with her time concept, she can easily change the timeline of this universe to a timeline where the fated destruction doesn't exist. But obviously she can't.

---

With all of that said ladies and gentlemen.

Tldr:

• The Heavenly Principles are confirmed to have the Universe scale Laws.
• The Heavenly Principles and their Four Shades are not limited to Teyvat.
• None of the reasons from the OP are the Primary reason why this verse got their Low 2-C.
• All of his Arguments are purely Hypotheticals & Argument from Belief.

 

[Antvasima]

@Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @Nehz_XZX @TWILIGHT-OP

What do you think about this?

 

[Weaver261]

I want to add a bit more context to my claims. In Genshin, Wills are important. Descenders are described as such.

This, too, is my goal, for not all that comes from beyond may be as one that "descends." That title belongs only to wills that can rival an entire world.
That is what I seek, the way to become just such a will, one that can protect the world, sustain the world, destroy the world, and create the world.

Descenders are being with wills that can rival a world. Primordial One is also a descender and they are the first descender since we have four currently.

Nahida: That's right. My current hypothesis is that the "First Descender" was likely what we now call the Heavenly Principles.

The thing we get to know later is that each planet has a being that rules the planet and have the will of descender.

But in other worlds, the subjects of astrological study are the solar ecliptic energies, the various lunar energies of the satellites, the will-energy of the celestial rulers of the planets, the scattered interference energy of distant stars, and the dark energy that suffuses the pitch-black cosmos.

This is used again in skirk story quest

Skirk: The elemental energy of Teyvat, on the other hand, is derived from the power of the Light Realm. These two forms of energy exist in direct opposition to each other. Suffice to say, there's not much I can teach you this time.
Skirk: Call it... respecting local norms. The Abyss stands in direct conflict with the will of this world. So, to make my life easier, I disguise my power to make it appear Cryo-like in nature.

This will here is referring to Nibelung's will since Light realm is his. And Primordial One split the Phlogiston of Light Realm into seven color elemental energy to counter Abyss. Primordial One is also the will of this world since they are the current ruler of this planet. What we get from this is how different planets have different rulers emitting their own will energy. This further proved Primordial One's influence only apply to Teyvat planet and nothing more. Since Skirk said the will of this world is in direct conflict with Abyss as we know that both Nibelung and Primordial One are in conflict with Abyss, there are other planets that aren't in conflict with Abyss just like Skirk's home planet where they can adapt to Abyss.

 

[MSahla]

IThe thing we get to know later is that each planet has a being that rules the planet and have the will of descender.

This is used again in skirk story quest

This will here is referring to Nibelung's will since Light realm is his. And Primordial One split the Phlogiston of Light Realm into seven color elemental energy to counter Abyss. Primordial One is also the will of this world since they are the current ruler of this planet. What we get from this is how different planets have different rulers emitting their own will energy. This further proved Primordial One's influence only apply to Teyvat planet and nothing more. Since Skirk said the will of this world is in direct conflict with Abyss as we know that both Nibelung and Primordial One are in conflict with Abyss, there might be other planets that aren't in conflict with Abyss just like Skirk's home planet where they can adapt to Abyss.

Okay so, you're basically saying that because of the Heavenly Principles did not directly ruling other planet than Teyvat, therefore, they do not have universal laws and can only influenced Teyvat.

This is wrong. The Heavenly Principles does not necessarily have to govern each planets in the universe directly, just like how they did to Teyvat. This doesn't mean anything at all.

We don't even know what kind of rulers in the other worlds, could be just a King of a Kingdom, or an earthly god. Not necessarily be a Progenitor God like the Heavenly Principles.

Even though those other worlds have their own rulers, their worlds are still under the dominion of the Golden String/Musica Mundana/Universal Laws established by the Heavenly Principles. The proof is that The Traveler themselves who have a Golden Soul because they're part/tied to the Musica Mundana or the Golden String.

"I have seen the lightless end, tearing through star clusters like a spindle among silken threads."
"I have seen how the cold tide of chaos drowns out all songs, so that good and evil alike vanish into silence."

This statements of the Voyager directly referring to the description of Lightless Silk String, even more confirming that the Golden String govern through the sea of stars because she saw this thread/string. By knowing/reading this thread, the Voyager know which world was destined to be perish. Much like Nabu Malikata and Sybilla, who can tell the fate of Someone/Kingdom, but didn't know "how" They will face the process that lead them to output of fate.

The False Constellations (False Sky) and the True Constellations (Outer Universe) are still under the dominion of Musica Mundana/Laws of the Universe established by the Heavenly Principles.

The universal music is the primordial harmony. All harmonies arise from it and return to it. The false and true constellations (that is, the inner and outer, lower and upper constellations—Eunice will elaborate on this aspect for you), the cycles of seasons and years, the defined elements—everything in the cosmos operates according to the order of this harmony...

 

[MSahla]

Okay so, you're basically saying that because of the Heavenly Principles did not directly ruling other planet than Teyvat, therefore, they do not have universal laws and can only influenced Teyvat.

This is wrong. The Heavenly Principles does not necessarily have to govern each planets in the universe directly, just like how they did to Teyvat. This doesn't mean anything at all.

We don't even know what kind of rulers in the other worlds, could be just a King of a Kingdom, or an earthly god. Not necessarily be a Progenitor God like the Heavenly Principles.

Even though those other worlds have their own rulers, their worlds are still under the dominion of the Golden String/Musica Mundana/Universal Laws established by the Heavenly Principles. The proof is that The Traveler themselves who have a Golden Soul because they're part/tied to the Musica Mundana or the Golden String.



This statements of the Voyager directly referring to the description of Lightless Silk String, even more confirming that the Golden String govern through the sea of stars because she saw this thread/string. By knowing/reading this thread, the Voyager know which world was destined to be perish. Much like Nabu Malikata and Sybilla, who can tell the fate of Someone/Kingdom, but didn't know "how" They will face the process that lead them to output of fate.

The False Constellations (False Sky) and the True Constellations (Outer Universe) are still under the dominion of Musica Mundana/Laws of the Universe established by the Heavenly Principles.

+ This is why a thing called "Range" exist.

 

[Weaver261]

Okay so, you're basically saying that because of the Heavenly Principles did not directly ruling other planet than Teyvat, therefore, they do not have universal laws and can only influenced Teyvat.

This is wrong. The Heavenly Principles does not necessarily have to govern each planets in the universe directly, just like how they did to Teyvat. This doesn't mean anything at all.

How do you prove that? How will you prove that Heavenly Principles rules other planets but not directly??? Just because you assumed they have universal laws? This alone won't enough to prove when there're other celestial rulers like Primordial One.

Even though those other worlds have their own rulers, their worlds are still under the dominion of the Golden String/Musica Mundana/Universal Laws established by the Heavenly Principles. The proof is that The Traveler themselves who have a Golden Soul because they're part/tied to the Musica Mundana or the Golden String.

Wrong. The fate Primordial One weaved with Golden String aka Musica Mundana is a sacred plan where if everyone followed the rules, they would be happy.

"Once upon a time, the titan craftsman (Primordial One) of the skies once wove the destinies of all living beings, the golden harp their instrument of fate."
"That was the divine plan of the heavens. If it were followed, the entire world would usher happiness in."
- Etherlight Spindlelute

This divine plan is the sacred plan from Year of Ark Opening

"The Year of the Ark's Opening"
The Primordial One had a sacred plan for humans. As long as they were happy, it too rejoiced.
- Before Sun and Moon

"The Year of Jubilee"
If there was hunger, the heavens would bring down food and rain. If there was poverty, the earth would bring forth its riches. If melancholy were to spread, the heavens would reply with their voices. The one taboo was to succumb to temptation. But the path to temptation had already been sealed.
- Before Sun And Moon

And you are telling me other planets which are using Abyss is also under Primordial One? Make it make sense.

This statements of the Voyager directly referring to the description of Lightless Silk String

Eh no?? That is just flowery language obviously

By knowing/reading this thread, the Voyager know which world was destined to be perish.

Proof? Where did she say that she can read this thread? She is a scribe and her duty is to record civilizations. And all civilizations are fate to perish since it's the fate of the universe. Not because she can read the threads of fate. There was never a statement like this and this is just your assumption.

This passerby was a scribe drifting through the vast void, duty-bound never to commune with primordial civilizations.

The False Constellations (False Sky) and the True Constellations (Outer Universe) are still under the dominion of Musica Mundana/Laws of the Universe established by the Heavenly Principles.

Again, you are holding onto this scan as 100% absolute truth while it's just stated to be an anicent belief that includes a lot of wrong errors.

Conclusion

• Fate weaved with golden harp (musica mundana) is just the fate of Teyvat as evidence by the sacred plan
• other planets have their own rulers who emit their own will-energy just like Nibelung and Primordial One who are against with Abyss but some planets can adapt to Abyss.

 

[MSahla]

How do you prove that? How will you prove that Heavenly Principles did not directly rule other planets??? Just because you assumed they have universal laws? This alone won't enough to prove when there're other celestial rulers like Primordial One.

Buddy, theres a thing called "Range".

Wrong. The fate Primordial One weaved with Golden String aka Musica Mundana is a sacred plan where if everyone followed the rules, they would be happy.

This divine plan is the sacred plan from Year of Ark Opening

I have already debunked this on my "Debunk The Claim "They Don't Have Universal Laws", and you should learn that theres two musics; Musica Humana and Musica Mundana, not just the Musica Mundana — you also have to differentiate them.

Do you even realize that you've been avoiding the Silver String, a.k.a Musica Humana, a.k.a the Laws of the Mortal Realm?
All you do here is just basically circular reasoning into the oblivion.

The one you talked about is the Silver String or the Laws of the Mortal Realm. The Heavenly Principles uses the Three Moon Goddesses as a medium to "Weave" this string. Therefore, everything in the world of Teyvat flows along this silver thread.

霜月的女主人早已用银线纺出了世间一切道路，万物不过是随着纺线起舞」

The mistress of frost-moon has long spun all paths of the world with silver thread; All things merely dance along the thread's course.

And it is also explicitly said that this "Silver String", a.k.a, the Musica Humana/Laws of the Mortal Realm, was produced by/from the Musica Mundana, which is the Laws of the Universe.

Musica Humana is the music of the world of mortals. The music of mortals and gods are no different from one another, and both can be classified in this category, for their essence is that of the harmony produced by the Musica Mundana striking the Quality of the Soul......

U should read the big sentences here because that's very important — how the Heavenly Principles created the Laws of the Mortal World from the Laws of the Universe.

This is also why EVERY SOULS in Teyvat are Silver, because they're bound to this laws.
humana/Silver String or the Laws of the Mortal Realm

And you are telling me other planets which are using Abyss is also under Primordial One? Make it make sense.

Under the dominion of the Heavenly Principles' laws. They dont gaf about those low creatures using the abyss, they still bound to the Heavenly Principles' laws. Skirk is literally the best example for this because she has a Constellation.

That is just flowery language

Classic words, can't even proved it wrong.

Proof? Where did she say that she can read this thread? She is a scribe and her duty is to record civilizations. And all civilizations are fate to perish since it's the fate of the universe. Not because she can read the threads of fate. There was never a statement like this and this is just your assumption.

Bros definitely not reading anything i gave.

"I have seen the lightless end, tearing through star clusters like a spindle among silken threads."

Again, you are holding onto this scan as 100% absolute truth while it's just stated to be an anicent belief that includes a lot of wrong errors.

While i also have already debunked that too.
The Description from "The Lunar Arcanum X: The Wheel of Fortune" have made it clear that Fortuna are not a false metaphor. The fact that they brought this theme again in Nod-Krai is the proof that thats not false at all.

命运之轮

尽管对这个蛋壳中的世界而言并无意义，

但我们所说的「命运」并非伪物的隐喻，

而是在一百四十亿个「年」的漆黑之中，

一切注定发生、与不会发生之事的总和。

别离、相遇、相遇后再度的别离，

新生、毁灭、毁灭后再度的新生，

九百三十亿个属于光的「年」的漆黑中，

一切存在皆有其无人知晓的意义，

否则——这宇宙未免也太过孤独。

这便是我们在占卜牌中所言说，

或不可言说的「命运」。

「命运之轮」无休无止轮转，

但总有些不会被遗忘的东西，

但总有些不会被湮没的东西。

至少，我是愿意如此相信的

The Wheel of Fate
Though meaningless to this world within an eggshell,
the “fate/fortuna” we speak of is no hollow metaphor,
but the sum total of all that is destined to occur—and not occur—
within the pitch-black expanse of one hundred and forty billion “years.”

Partings, meetings, meetings followed by partings,
births, destructions, destructions followed by rebirths—
in the darkness of nine hundred and thirty billion light-years,
every existence holds its own unknown meaning.
Otherwise—this universe would be far too lonely.

This is what we speak of in the divination cards,
or the unspeakable “fate.”

The Wheel of Fate turns ceaselessly,
yet there are things that will never be forgotten,
there are things that will never be lost.
At least, I choose to believe so.

All things that destined to happen and never be happen throughout 93 billions of light and 14 billions years of darkness (universe) are the summary of this "Fortuna".

---

Conclusion:

 

[MSahla]

Oh boy, let's start it again, shall we..

Spoiler: why you shouldn't agree to this

First of all, I want to say that this CRT doesn't debunked anything at all. There isn't a single compelling argument or evidence to debunk this Low 2-C and all of it is just a merely hypothetical or what ifs based on the previous crt, and basically saying "if he can do that, then why don't he do this? If he truly can do that, then this won't happen". Their arguments are Arguments from Beliefs, thats literally one of the fallacies in this wiki or in general.

He claims that the Heavenly Principles and the Four Shades don't have Universal Framework Laws, even though it's consistently stated in-game that they do, and I've proven it multiple times.

The OP never once refuted or disproved that; he simply doesn't believe they have them because he always thinks hypothetically, like, "If he could do that, then he should have done this." "If he could do that, then this wouldn't have happened." "If he could do that, then he should have done this to prevent it from happening."
And with all that, he concludes that they don't have universal laws because they don't do what they say they do.
Which, in no way, disproves the Heavenly Principles and the Four Shades have universal laws.
I already have several pieces of evidence that consistently said that they do have universal framework laws. However, they refuse to believe it because of their hypothetical thinking, "If he can do that, then this shouldn't happen; he should be able to do this," and so on.

I just want to say that it doesn't make sense if you agree with this thread based on the OP's reasons.
Because, the reasons in the OP are NOT the primary reason they got 4-D and Low 2-C. So, none of the reasons in the OP refute Low 2-C or 4-D.

One the biggest reason they got 4-D and Low 2-C comes from Istaroth. In short, The Ruler of Time, Istaroth, is "Time" itself. This means, Istaroth is the entire Temporal Dimension itself and also has complete authority over Time or the Timeline. According to the FAQ, Time is an uncountably infinite set of snapshots of a space. Therefore, Istaroth would qualify for HDE 4D and L2C. And has already been summarized in this CRT.

If they wants to debunk the Low 2-C and HDE, they must proves themselves that Istaroth is literally not "Time" itself, which is, Impossible because the game have already confimed that she's literally "Time" itself many many times.

Spoiler: Regarding Musica Mundana

Regarding "Musica Mundana/Golden String"

First of, we must know and differentiate that theres two musics, What is this "musics?"
Musica Mundana and Musica Humana are the ancient remurian terms or concept to described the Laws of the Heavens by using "Music" as their analogies. Musica Mundana, a.k.a, the Golden String, is the Music or String that governs the universe, as it is stated that everything in the universe operates according to this rythym/music/order/string.

And there Musica Humana, a.k.a, the Silver String, are basically the Music/Laws of the Mortal realm


So from here, we know the differences between Musica Mundana and Musica Humana.

Musica Mundana = Laws of the Universe
Musica Humana = Laws of the Mortal Realm (Teyvat)

Spoiler: Debunk the claim "They don't have Universal Laws"

Yes, they do have universal laws and whenever they said "universal" Is literally what it means. As it said, anything that disturbs the order of the Musica Mundana/Golden String will destroy a frabric of the cosmos.

This is clearly how the Golden String or Musica Mundana governing the whole universe.






This is a very blantant scan that says the Heavenly Principles are the Laws of the Universe that give rise to the world of Teyvat with its content like the Seven Elements of the Mortal Realms.

Everyone who read this carefully would know that Musica Mundana or the Golden String are governing the universe.

Nothings really contradict my claim, for the purposes of creating Golden String (Musica Mundana/Universal) and the Silver String (Musica Humana/Mortal Realm) are the same; to make all living beings happy.

The string of the world is already said to be Silver String, on which later controls by the Moon Goddess because the Heavenly Principles using these Moon Goddesses as a medium to "weave" the Silver String, a.k.a, the Laws of the Mortal Realm. And everything in the world of Teyvat follows the flow of this thread/string.

The Silver Thread, which is the Laws of the Mortal Realm, was produced from the higher one, which is the Golden String or the Universal one.
The Remurians also explained how "Fate" is closely tied to the quality of the soul.


Every souls we've ever seen in Teyvat is always Silver because they're bound by the Musica humana/Silver String or the Laws of the Mortal Realm

Now heres the difference from the Golden String. In Skirk's Story Quest, we can see how the Traveler's soul as a Descender is golden. This is because the quality of the traveler's soul is tied to/equal to the Musica Mundana, the "Golden String", which the string that governs all Universal Phenomena.

So, we know the differences here, and this is not really that hard to be understand.

Golden String = Musica Mundana = Laws of the Universe = Golden Soul
Silver String = Musica Humana = Laws of the Mortal Realm (Teyvat) = Silver Soul (This string was produced from the golden one).

The OP never differentiate which one is the Universal Laws and which one is the Laws of the Mortal Realm because of these things are slightly different. And all he basically saying is just how the Heavenly Principles control the world of Teyvat.

---

Here in this specifict quote, The False Sky which contains the false constellations and the True Universe which contains the true constellations is still under the dominion of the Musica Mundana or Universal Laws created by the Heavenly Principles as "Master of Fortuna"

---

Regarding OP's claim that said "Fortuna is considered to be false by newgen"
Debunk:
Fortuna is already concluded to be not a false metaphor in the Lunar Arcanum X: The Wheel Fortune. Which was released like 2 months ago. (While the scan he gave that saying it false is from 2 years ago). As said here:


Here "Fortuna" and "Fortune" are not different, both have the same meaning; Fate. It's directly mention that fortuna is not a false metaphor, all things that destined to happen and never be happen throughout 93 billions of Light and 14 billions years of darkness (universe) are the summary of this "fortuna".

After all, "Fortuna" is just a local concept to described the Laws of the Heavens or the Heavenly Principles. Saying Fortuna is false is basically saying the laws of the heavens is false, which we know that isn't correct at all. And whats funny is that, the one who wrote that "Fortuna is false", which Rene de Petrichor, is literally the victims of this "Fortuna" or the Laws of the Heavens.

This is a very blantant scan that says the Heavenly Principles are the Laws of the Universe that give rise to the world of Teyvat with its content like the Seven Elements of the Mortal Realms.

---

In the recent new story of the game, Dottore just confirming that The Heavenly Principles' domain are in universal scope in CN. there he said "世界之理" referring to Phanes, which mean "The Principle of the World" Directly reference from Neo-Confucianism.

And the "world" Here cannot and never used to refer a "planet" Context in any chinese usage especially in the philosophical, literary, cultivation, and religious contexts where 世界之理 appears. The word phrase in original philosophy always refer the statement in the universal scope.

If they really wants to say phanes “the principles/laws of the planet”, they will write: 地球之理 (which extremely rare and awkward) 星球法則 | 這顆星球的規則 They never use 世界之理 for that.

Because in Chinese, the word “世界” (world) is much broader than the English word “planet.”

世界 does not mean “planet” — it means an entire realm of existence
In Chinese, 世界 refers to a complete, self-contained reality, not a physical planet.

Examples in Chinese usage:
三千世界 — “three thousand worlds” (Buddhism), meaning many universes.
世界观 — worldview (not planet-view)
另一个世界 — another world/realm.
世界末日 — the end of the world (meaning all existence, not Earth as a planet)

So 世界 naturally describes:
• a cosmos
• a realm
• a dimension
• a universal reality
Thus when you say 世界之理, it can refer to the law that governs the entire cosmos, not just a planet.

理 in classical Chinese philosophy (like Neo-Confucianism) is the cosmic order that gives structure to existence, not a small rule.
It can refer to:
• natural laws
• cosmic structure
• metaphysical truth
• the inherent order of the universe
So 世界 + 理 gives a meaning close to cosmic principles.

Traditional thought treats 世界 as a metaphysical totality
In Daoism, Buddhism, and Chinese cosmology:
世界 = the entire realm of existence.
It includes heaven, earth, cosmic cycles, and all beings

So 世界之理 can naturally describe:
• the laws governing all existence
• the structure of the universe
• the underlying pattern of reality
Which is essentially cosmic principles.

Summary:
世界 = realm / reality / world-system, NOT planet
So 世界之理 naturally expands to:
“the principle that governs an entire world-system”
…and that can easily refer to the cosmos, not a planet.

"But in Honkai Cosmology "世界" are not necessarily universe"
We must know that, despite in the same cosmology as Honkai: Star Rail and Honkai Impact 3rd, Genshin Impact is on a different universe and have completely different terminologies than their neighbours; Honkais.

The part here about the Voyager isn't relevant to them having or not having the Universal Laws. The quote here already obvious and basically saying that Teyvat was bound to something from external, something from beyond the planet. This doesn't mean the Four Shades are limited nor bound to Teyvat and theres nothing to prove that they do. (They never did prove that once)


And it is funny that The Voyager's statement even more supporting my arguments.

She once said this to Nibelung:

This statement of her is clearly referring to this description that i gave earlier about Fortuna and the Golden String:

Translate from CN Version
Official English Version

The same strings/thread that told us about Fortuna. Basically, the Golden Thread/String are governing the entire thing through sea of stars. By knowing/reading this thread, the voyager know which world was destined to be perish. Much like Nabu Malikata and Sybilla, who can tell fate of Someone/Kingdom, but didn't know "how" They will face the process that lead them to output of fate

So, the Voyager also helps my Argument


We're not forgetting the fact that Istaroth is as old as Time itself, did we? Because she's Omnipresent (temporal omnipresent to be exact), she's Time itself and the embodiment of time.

Some old story context can be change. And after we get this far, Istaroth is more like "Time" given form by the Heavenly Principles. Again, based on that Istaroth's Prayer Song from the Hymns of the Far North.

Spoiler: Regarding "The Four Shades are only to Teyvat"

Believe it or not, they never provided such evidences that said so from the game.

One of their claim also says "Istaroth Omnipresent only within Teyvat's False Sky"
But this is completely false.

In the Volume 2 of the Spring of Hidden Jade, they already stated that the False Sky couldn't stop Istaroth and her Daughter named Zibai who's an Angel and also a White Horse Adeptus.


Here, "Eggshell" are referring to the False Sky, because eggshell is basically another word for the False Sky.

Spoiler: Regarding the Low 2-C

Every reasons from the OP ARE NOT the primary reason of why this verse got their Low 2-C to begin with. This Universal Laws are just proving them not limited nor bound to a single planet just like they said.

The Low 2-C coming from The Ruler of Time Istaroth, who are the embodiment of Time itself. That means, she's Temporal Dimension itself.

This is how this wiki treated Temporal Dimension:

In short: Time can be imagined as a long line made of infinitely many moments.
Each moment is like a frozen picture of the entire universe—everything, everywhere, exactly as it is at that instant.

When you put all those moments together, you get spacetime, which is the complete history of the universe: every place and every moment, all at once.
So:

• One point on the line = one instant (a snapshot of the universe)
• The whole line = all moments combined
• Spacetime = the collection of every snapshot that ever exists

@Furina003 also have explained this here

Istaroth alone is already stated to be "Every Moments" which even more confirming her being Time itself.


So, if they want to make this Low 2-C gone, they must prove themselves that Istaroth are not "Time itself and she's not the embodiment of Time itself. Which is impossible because the game have already made clear that she is.

"But she's only limited to Teyvat"
She's not, and i already explain it a lot above. And even we can see here in the God's Limit's trailer where Istaroth's influence can affect an unknown space somewhere in the universe.


Istaroth already have a feats that reached Tier 2 and even higher. Some of her feats are listed in this CRT

What he said here is pure Hypotheticals and Argument from Belief. He's basically saying "Oh if he stated to be so, then why this happen? If he can do that, then why he didn't do this to prevent it from happening?"

He said such thing in the previous thread

---

With all of that said ladies and gentlemen.

Tldr:

• The Heavenly Principles are confirmed to have the Universe scale Laws.
• The Heavenly Principles and their Four Shades are not limited to Teyvat.
• None of the reasons from the OP are the Primary reason why this verse got their Low 2-C.
• All of his Arguments are purely Hypotheticals & Argument from Belief.

Whatever further claims he may make next, they are all refuted here.

 

[MSahla]

I also hope the staffs could see this, read everything in here and give their thoughts. Otherwise, this is gonna be Me vs Weaver261 thread all over again.

 

[Weaver261]

I have already debunked this on my "Debunk The Claim "They Don't Have Universal Laws", and you should learn that theres two musics; Musica Humana and Musica Mundana, not just the Musica Mundana — you also have to differentiate them.

There's literally no need to since you already agreed Golden String = Musica Mundana = Universal Law. Golden string produced the fate of all beings which is a sacred divine plan. This divine plan here referring to Year of Ark Opening on Teyvat where Primordial One made a plan for humanity and if only they don't touch abyss, they will be happy. Is that so hard to get for you?

Do you even realize that you've been avoiding the Silver String, a.k.a Musica Humana, a.k.a the Laws of the Mortal Realm?
All you do here is just basically circular reasoning into the oblivion.

Silver string in this case are woven by Moon goddess which is unexplained and the equalization between silver string and musica humana is non existence in lore and that's just your assumption and theory. But Golden String here is clearly talking about Fate of Teyvat.

The one you talked about is the Silver String or the Laws of the Mortal Realm. The Heavenly Principles uses the Three Moon Goddesses as a medium to "Weave" this string. Therefore, everything in the world of Teyvat flows along this silver thread.

Show me the scan stating "Heavenly Principle used the three moon goddess as mediums to weave silver string. Bet you can't cuz there's literally none.

This is also why EVERY SOULS in Teyvat are Silver, because they're bound to this laws.
humana/Silver String or the Laws of the Mortal Realm

Again headcanons and theories. We don't do that here.

Under the dominion of the Heavenly Principles' laws. They dont gaf about those low creatures using the abyss, they still bound to the Heavenly Principles' laws. Skirk is literally the best example for this because she has a Constellation.

You said Heavenly Principles don't gaf about people using abyss????? There's a reason why Abyss is called Forbidden Knowledge T - T

Bros definitely not reading anything i gave.

People can who read will know nothing here talked about Musica Mundana. It's just the lightless ending happening through star clusters.

While i also have already debunked that too.
The Description from "The Lunar Arcanum X: The Wheel of Fortune" have made it clear that Fortuna are not a false metaphor.

Genshin used this "法图纳" as the word of Fortuna but the Lunar Arcanum used the word "命运" which is translated into Fate or Destiny. It's true that Fortuna can also mean fate but just because fate is mentioned, doesn't mean fortuna is also mentioned here. Fortuna is a term of anicent fontaine people and not universal usage of the Genshin Universe. So Lunar Arcanum here is not talking about Fortuna obviously. But "命运" exist in Genshin for sure. It's just that Fate in Teyvat is created by Primoridial One with golden harp to survive against Abyss and destined ending of the universe and Fate of the universe is to be perished.
This two fates go against with each other thus Primoridal One is not the master of the fate of the universe.

 

[MSahla]

There's literally no need to since you already agreed Golden String = Musica Mundana = Universal Law. Golden string produced the fate of all beings which is a sacred divine plan. This divine plan here referring to Year of Ark Opening on Teyvat where Primordial One made a plan for humanity and if only they don't touch abyss, they will be happy. Is that so hard to get for you?

??
What are u even talking about.
Theres still differences between the Universal Laws and the Laws of the Mortal Realm, like their quality of souls. (Which i already explained before)

Golden String = Musica Mundana
Silver String = Musica Humana

The Golden String are not produced from anything, but the Silver String IS produced from the Golden String. You really need to read this bro, like fr. You misunderstand everything i gave.

Musica Humana is the music of the world of mortals. The music of mortals and gods are no different from one another, and both can be classified in this category, for their essence is that of the harmony produced by the Musica Mundana striking the Quality of the Soul......

Silver string in this case are woven by Moon goddess which is unexplained and the equalization between silver string and musica humana is non existence in lore and that's just your assumption and theory.

Assumption and Theory he said

While the Moon Goddesses sole duty is to maintaining the planet's existence and the Heavenly Principles are ruled over them.

For the Three Moon Goddesses, their sole duty was to maintain the planet's existence and operation. And so the moonlight continued to illuminate the lands of Teyvat. Alas, even they, who kept to themselves, could not remain uninvolved. Inevitably, conflicts between those in power would affect some of those who were subordinate to them.

Like drifting smoke had the lord of dragons vanished, and the Winged One's throne now ruled the radiance of the three moons.

But Golden String here is clearly talking about Fate of Teyvat.

It's not
If the Golden String is about Teyvat, then all souls in Teyvat would've been Golden, not Silver.

Show me the scan stating "Heavenly Principle used the three moon goddess as mediums to weave silver string. Bet you can't cuz there's literally none.

The purpose of the Moon Goddesses is to keep their planet alive. This is not at all against with the aim of the Heavenly Principles. After their arrival, the Heavenly Principles took control of the three moons.

And let's not forget that the Moon Goddesses can also control the laws of the world, and they also mention that the Moon Goddesses govern the Wheel of Fate/Constellations in Teyvat.

The world, no longer sheltered by "Eternity." Marches forward to its final breath. Yet, from the ashes, the "New Moon" rises, its ascent spinning the wheel of fate anew. — Nod-Krai Web Event

"Song of the Welkin Moon"
The "New Moon" has risen, and the wheel of fate begins to turn.

Again headcanons and theories. We don't do that here.

Can't read i guess

The Remurians also explained how "Fate" is closely tied to the quality of the soul.

Musica Humana is the music of the world of mortals. The music of mortals and gods are no different from one another, and both can be classified in this category, for their essence is that of the harmony produced by the Musica Mundana striking the Quality of the Soul......

Every souls we've ever seen in Teyvat is always Silver because they're bound by the Musica humana/Silver String or the Laws of the Mortal Realm

Now heres the difference from the Golden String. In Skirk's Story Quest, we can see how the Traveler's soul as a Descender is golden. This is because the quality of the traveler's soul is tied to/equal to the Musica Mundana, the "Golden String", which the string that governs all Universal Phenomena.

So, we know the differences here, and this is not really that hard to be understand.

Golden String = Musica Mundana = Laws of the Universe = Golden Soul
Silver String = Musica Humana = Laws of the Mortal Realm (Teyvat) = Silver Soul (This string was produced from the golden one).

You said Heavenly Principles don't gaf about people using abyss????? There's a reason why Abyss is called Forbidden Knowledge T - T

Yeah, have you see Durin or Skirk get punished immediately by the Shades and Heavenly Principles now? They're not a big threat to them.

People can who read will know nothing here talked about Musica Mundana. It's just the lightless ending happening through star clusters.

Oh my oh my, the golden thread is already stated to be govern universally and she saw those thread.
If we read this kind of thing, we must clock it "oh this one is talking about that one"

Genshin used this "法图纳" as the word of Fortuna but the Lunar Arcanum used the word "命运" which is translated into Fate or Destiny. It's true that Fortuna can also mean fate but just because fate is mentioned, doesn't mean fortuna is also mentioned here. Fortuna is a term of anicent fontaine people and not universal usage of the Genshin Universe. So Lunar Arcanum here is not talking about Fortuna obviously. But "命运" exist in Genshin for sure. It's just that Fate in Teyvat is created by Primoridial One with golden harp to survive against Abyss and destined ending of the universe and Fate of the universe is to be perished.
This two fates go against with each other thus Primoridal One is not the master of the fate of the universe.

The official translation literally used "Fortune" which no different than Fortuna
Fortuna and Fortune are having the same meaning: Fate.

Though there is no meaning in this world within an eggshell,
The "fortune" we speak of is not some false metaphor,
In 14 billion "years" of darkness,
It is the sum of all that is destined to happen and all that never will.

The chinese version also said "the "fate" we speak of is not some false metaphor"
This is clearly obvious that they talking about Fortuna, you just make it complicated while it's so easy to understand.

"Just because Fate is mentioned here, doesn't mean Fortuna is also mentioned"

Until you know that Fortuna is literally Fate

As Cassiodor previously taught you, the “Fortuna” we speak of is not the same as the Supreme One… The latter takes its name from the former; the former is actually the “rule” that governs all universal phenomena, which is what the servants call “fate”…)

 

[Weaver261]

I don't think we will ever get any conclusion from going back and forth like this and it's literally a waste of time. Since we have provided enough context, I will just let the staff evaluate this. For the record, I am not doing the downgrade because I hate the verse and want to see it get mocked. I do this because I don't want genshin to be mocked as overwanked verse and the scaling being totally wrong when compared with the lore. I love genshin stories and its lore. But current chain scaling just need to go since it doesn't make sense with current lore at all. Also Sahl, don't reply to this and let the staff evaluate alright?

 

[Antvasima]

@Qawsedf234 @Celestial_Pegasus @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @GrathOfLux @Planck69 @LephyrTheRevanchist

Are any of you willing to take a look here please?

 

[Vietthai96]

Mhmm

I'm deleting this comment cause it is unnecessary and clogging up the thread. The topic is heated and long enough for any unrelated comment

I want to remind you that even though you get indefinite posting permission from Ant, let stay on topic

 

[Antvasima]

Agreed.

 

[MSahla]

I'm deleting this comment cause it is unnecessary and clogging up the thread. The topic is heated and long enough for any unrelated comment

I want to remind you that even though you get indefinite posting permission from Ant, let stay on topic

Apologize.

 

[MSahla]

Oh boy, let's start it again, shall we..

Spoiler: why you shouldn't agree to this

First of all, I want to say that this CRT doesn't debunked anything at all. There isn't a single compelling argument or evidence to debunk this Low 2-C and all of it is just a merely hypothetical or what ifs based on the previous crt, and basically saying "if he can do that, then why don't he do this? If he truly can do that, then this won't happen". Their arguments are Arguments from Beliefs, thats literally one of the fallacies in this wiki or in general.

He claims that the Heavenly Principles and the Four Shades don't have Universal Framework Laws, even though it's consistently stated in-game that they do, and I've proven it multiple times.

The OP never once refuted or disproved that; he simply doesn't believe they have them because he always thinks hypothetically, like, "If he could do that, then he should have done this." "If he could do that, then this wouldn't have happened." "If he could do that, then he should have done this to prevent it from happening."
And with all that, he concludes that they don't have universal laws because they don't do what they say they do.
Which, in no way, disproves the Heavenly Principles and the Four Shades have universal laws.
I already have several pieces of evidence that consistently said that they do have universal framework laws. However, they refuse to believe it because of their hypothetical thinking, "If he can do that, then this shouldn't happen; he should be able to do this," and so on.

I just want to say that it doesn't make sense if you agree with this thread based on the OP's reasons.
Because, the reasons in the OP are NOT the primary reason they got 4-D and Low 2-C. So, none of the reasons in the OP refute Low 2-C or 4-D.

One the biggest reason they got 4-D and Low 2-C comes from Istaroth. In short, The Ruler of Time, Istaroth, is "Time" itself. This means, Istaroth is the entire Temporal Dimension itself and also has complete authority over Time or the Timeline. According to the FAQ, Time is an uncountably infinite set of snapshots of a space. Therefore, Istaroth would qualify for HDE 4D and L2C. And has already been summarized in this CRT.

If they wants to debunk the Low 2-C and HDE, they must proves themselves that Istaroth is literally not "Time" itself, which is, Impossible because the game have already confimed that she's literally "Time" itself many many times.

Spoiler: Regarding Musica Mundana

Regarding "Musica Mundana/Golden String"

First of, we must know and differentiate that theres two musics, What is this "musics?"
Musica Mundana and Musica Humana are the ancient remurian terms or concept to described the Laws of the Heavens by using "Music" as their analogies. Musica Mundana, a.k.a, the Golden String, is the Music or String that governs the universe, as it is stated that everything in the universe operates according to this rythym/music/order/string.

And there Musica Humana, a.k.a, the Silver String, are basically the Music/Laws of the Mortal realm


So from here, we know the differences between Musica Mundana and Musica Humana.

Musica Mundana = Laws of the Universe
Musica Humana = Laws of the Mortal Realm (Teyvat)

Spoiler: Debunk the claim "They don't have Universal Laws"

Yes, they do have universal laws and whenever they said "universal" Is literally what it means. As it said, anything that disturbs the order of the Musica Mundana/Golden String will destroy a frabric of the cosmos.

This is clearly how the Golden String or Musica Mundana governing the whole universe.






This is a very blantant scan that says the Heavenly Principles are the Laws of the Universe that give rise to the world of Teyvat with its content like the Seven Elements of the Mortal Realms.

Everyone who read this carefully would know that Musica Mundana or the Golden String are governing the universe.

Nothings really contradict my claim, for the purposes of creating Golden String (Musica Mundana/Universal) and the Silver String (Musica Humana/Mortal Realm) are the same; to make all living beings happy.

The string of the world is already said to be Silver String, on which later controls by the Moon Goddess because the Heavenly Principles using these Moon Goddesses as a medium to "weave" the Silver String, a.k.a, the Laws of the Mortal Realm. And everything in the world of Teyvat follows the flow of this thread/string.

The Silver Thread, which is the Laws of the Mortal Realm, was produced from the higher one, which is the Golden String or the Universal one.
The Remurians also explained how "Fate" is closely tied to the quality of the soul.


Every souls we've ever seen in Teyvat is always Silver because they're bound by the Musica humana/Silver String or the Laws of the Mortal Realm

Now heres the difference from the Golden String. In Skirk's Story Quest, we can see how the Traveler's soul as a Descender is golden. This is because the quality of the traveler's soul is tied to/equal to the Musica Mundana, the "Golden String", which the string that governs all Universal Phenomena.

So, we know the differences here, and this is not really that hard to be understand.

Golden String = Musica Mundana = Laws of the Universe = Golden Soul
Silver String = Musica Humana = Laws of the Mortal Realm (Teyvat) = Silver Soul (This string was produced from the golden one).

The OP never differentiate which one is the Universal Laws and which one is the Laws of the Mortal Realm because of these things are slightly different. And all he basically saying is just how the Heavenly Principles control the world of Teyvat.

---

Here in this specifict quote, The False Sky which contains the false constellations and the True Universe which contains the true constellations is still under the dominion of the Musica Mundana or Universal Laws created by the Heavenly Principles as "Master of Fortuna"

---

Regarding OP's claim that said "Fortuna is considered to be false by newgen"
Debunk:
Fortuna is already concluded to be not a false metaphor in the Lunar Arcanum X: The Wheel Fortune. Which was released like 2 months ago. (While the scan he gave that saying it false is from 2 years ago). As said here:


Here "Fortuna" and "Fortune" are not different, both have the same meaning; Fate. It's directly mention that fortuna is not a false metaphor, all things that destined to happen and never be happen throughout 93 billions of Light and 14 billions years of darkness (universe) are the summary of this "fortuna".

After all, "Fortuna" is just a local concept to described the Laws of the Heavens or the Heavenly Principles. Saying Fortuna is false is basically saying the laws of the heavens is false, which we know that isn't correct at all. And whats funny is that, the one who wrote that "Fortuna is false", which Rene de Petrichor, is literally the victims of this "Fortuna" or the Laws of the Heavens.

This is a very blantant scan that says the Heavenly Principles are the Laws of the Universe that give rise to the world of Teyvat with its content like the Seven Elements of the Mortal Realms.

---

In the recent new story of the game, Dottore just confirming that The Heavenly Principles' domain are in universal scope in CN. there he said "世界之理" referring to Phanes, which mean "The Principle of the World" Directly reference from Neo-Confucianism.

And the "world" Here cannot and never used to refer a "planet" Context in any chinese usage especially in the philosophical, literary, cultivation, and religious contexts where 世界之理 appears. The word phrase in original philosophy always refer the statement in the universal scope.

If they really wants to say phanes “the principles/laws of the planet”, they will write: 地球之理 (which extremely rare and awkward) 星球法則 | 這顆星球的規則 They never use 世界之理 for that.

Because in Chinese, the word “世界” (world) is much broader than the English word “planet.”

世界 does not mean “planet” — it means an entire realm of existence
In Chinese, 世界 refers to a complete, self-contained reality, not a physical planet.

Examples in Chinese usage:
三千世界 — “three thousand worlds” (Buddhism), meaning many universes.
世界观 — worldview (not planet-view)
另一个世界 — another world/realm.
世界末日 — the end of the world (meaning all existence, not Earth as a planet)

So 世界 naturally describes:
• a cosmos
• a realm
• a dimension
• a universal reality
Thus when you say 世界之理, it can refer to the law that governs the entire cosmos, not just a planet.

理 in classical Chinese philosophy (like Neo-Confucianism) is the cosmic order that gives structure to existence, not a small rule.
It can refer to:
• natural laws
• cosmic structure
• metaphysical truth
• the inherent order of the universe
So 世界 + 理 gives a meaning close to cosmic principles.

Traditional thought treats 世界 as a metaphysical totality
In Daoism, Buddhism, and Chinese cosmology:
世界 = the entire realm of existence.
It includes heaven, earth, cosmic cycles, and all beings

So 世界之理 can naturally describe:
• the laws governing all existence
• the structure of the universe
• the underlying pattern of reality
Which is essentially cosmic principles.

Summary:
世界 = realm / reality / world-system, NOT planet
So 世界之理 naturally expands to:
“the principle that governs an entire world-system”
…and that can easily refer to the cosmos, not a planet.

"But in Honkai Cosmology "世界" are not necessarily universe"
We must know that, despite in the same cosmology as Honkai: Star Rail and Honkai Impact 3rd, Genshin Impact is on a different universe and have completely different terminologies than their neighbours; Honkais.

The part here about the Voyager isn't relevant to them having or not having the Universal Laws. The quote here already obvious and basically saying that Teyvat was bound to something from external, something from beyond the planet. This doesn't mean the Four Shades are limited nor bound to Teyvat and theres nothing to prove that they do. (They never did prove that once)


And it is funny that The Voyager's statement even more supporting my arguments.

She once said this to Nibelung:

This statement of her is clearly referring to this description that i gave earlier about Fortuna and the Golden String:

Translate from CN Version
Official English Version

The same strings/thread that told us about Fortuna. Basically, the Golden Thread/String are governing the entire thing through sea of stars. By knowing/reading this thread, the voyager know which world was destined to be perish. Much like Nabu Malikata and Sybilla, who can tell fate of Someone/Kingdom, but didn't know "how" They will face the process that lead them to output of fate

So, the Voyager also helps my Argument


We're not forgetting the fact that Istaroth is as old as Time itself, did we? Because she's Omnipresent (temporal omnipresent to be exact), she's Time itself and the embodiment of time.

Some old story context can be change. And after we get this far, Istaroth is more like "Time" given form by the Heavenly Principles. Again, based on that Istaroth's Prayer Song from the Hymns of the Far North.

Spoiler: Regarding "The Four Shades are only to Teyvat"

Believe it or not, they never provided such evidences that said so from the game.

One of their claim also says "Istaroth Omnipresent only within Teyvat's False Sky"
But this is completely false.

In the Volume 2 of the Spring of Hidden Jade, they already stated that the False Sky couldn't stop Istaroth and her Daughter named Zibai who's an Angel and also a White Horse Adeptus.


Here, "Eggshell" are referring to the False Sky, because eggshell is basically another word for the False Sky.

Spoiler: Regarding the Low 2-C

Every reasons from the OP ARE NOT the primary reason of why this verse got their Low 2-C to begin with. This Universal Laws are just proving them not limited nor bound to a single planet just like they said.

The Low 2-C coming from The Ruler of Time Istaroth, who are the embodiment of Time itself. That means, she's Temporal Dimension itself.

This is how this wiki treated Temporal Dimension:

In short: Time can be imagined as a long line made of infinitely many moments.
Each moment is like a frozen picture of the entire universe—everything, everywhere, exactly as it is at that instant.

When you put all those moments together, you get spacetime, which is the complete history of the universe: every place and every moment, all at once.
So:

• One point on the line = one instant (a snapshot of the universe)
• The whole line = all moments combined
• Spacetime = the collection of every snapshot that ever exists

@Furina003 also have explained this here

Istaroth alone is already stated to be "Every Moments" which even more confirming her being Time itself.


So, if they want to make this Low 2-C gone, they must prove themselves that Istaroth are not "Time itself and she's not the embodiment of Time itself. Which is impossible because the game have already made clear that she is.

"But she's only limited to Teyvat"
She's not, and i already explain it a lot above. And even we can see here in the God's Limit's trailer where Istaroth's influence can affect an unknown space somewhere in the universe.


Istaroth already have a feats that reached Tier 2 and even higher. Some of her feats are listed in this CRT

What he said here is pure Hypotheticals and Argument from Belief. He's basically saying "Oh if he stated to be so, then why this happen? If he can do that, then why he didn't do this to prevent it from happening?"

He said such thing in the previous thread

---

With all of that said ladies and gentlemen.

Tldr:

• The Heavenly Principles are confirmed to have the Universe scale Laws.
• The Heavenly Principles and their Four Shades are not limited to Teyvat.
• None of the reasons from the OP are the Primary reason why this verse got their Low 2-C.
• All of his Arguments are purely Hypotheticals & Argument from Belief.

Final little addition? Idk..

Spoiler: 6.3 Artifact Lore

So i just read the new Artifact Descriptions from Version Luna IV or 6.3
"Aubade of Morningstar and Moon" (Official Translation btw)

The Heavenly Principles, or the Primordial One, who may have been Phanes, is also described as "Lord ot Hosts", or "Sabaoth" for it's meaning. Confirmed by HxG (Very reliable chinese hoyoverse leaker)

In Ancient Hebrew, "Sabaoth" can also means "Lord of the Universe". This is further confirming that the Universe are under the dominion of the Heavenly Principles — supporting the previous evidences that says the same thing.

In the Bible, it commonly appears in the phrase:

יהוה צְבָאוֹת (YHWH Ṣəvāʾōṯ)

Which literally means:

“YHWH of Armies” or “LORD of Hosts”

Here, “hosts” can refer to:

• Heavenly armies (angels)
• Celestial bodies (stars, cosmic order)
• Earthly armies (Israel’s forces)

(And yes, theres an Angels in Genshin Impact)

When Sabaoth is used in the title:

יהוה צְבָאוֹת (YHWH Sabaoth)
“YHWH of Hosts”

The scope of “hosts” expands beyond human armies to include:

• Heavenly hosts (angels)
• Celestial bodies (stars, heavens)
• All cosmic powers and ordered forces

In Ancient Near Eastern thought, the heavens + stars = the structure of the cosmos.
So ruling over all hosts implicitly means ruling over everything that exists.

Conceptual meaning​

Thus, by concept, YHWH Sabaoth functions as:

“God who commands all cosmic forces”
→ effectively “Lord of the Universe”

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Final little addition? Idk..

Spoiler: 6.3 Artifact Lore

So i just read the new Artifact Descriptions from Version Luna IV or 6.3
"Aubade of Morningstar and Moon" (Official Translation btw)

The Heavenly Principles, or the Primordial One, who may have been Phanes, is also described as "Lord ot Hosts", or "Sabaoth" for it's meaning. Confirmed by HxG (Very reliable chinese hoyoverse leaker)

In Ancient Hebrew, "Sabaoth" can also means "Lord of the Universe". This is further confirming that the Universe are under the dominion of the Heavenly Principles — supporting the previous evidences that says the same thing.

In the Bible, it commonly appears in the phrase:

Which literally means:

Here, “hosts” can refer to:

• Heavenly armies (angels)
• Celestial bodies (stars, cosmic order)
• Earthly armies (Israel’s forces)

(And yes, theres an Angels in Genshin Impact)

When Sabaoth is used in the title:

The scope of “hosts” expands beyond human armies to include:

• Heavenly hosts (angels)
• Celestial bodies (stars, heavens)
• All cosmic powers and ordered forces

In Ancient Near Eastern thought, the heavens + stars = the structure of the cosmos.
So ruling over all hosts implicitly means ruling over everything that exists.

Conceptual meaning​

Thus, by concept, YHWH Sabaoth functions as:

permission given from Vietthai
Id like to point out that these are just leaks i dont reccomend using them until they are posted as official in game information, that way its much more accurate and reliable than mere leaks.

In Ancient Hebrew, "Sabaoth" can also means "Lord of the Universe". This is further confirming that the Universe are under the dominion of the Heavenly Principles — supporting the previous evidences that says the same thing.

this could also very much be a title rather than actual status, so please dont use something that isnt introduced in game as an official information.
Thats all i leave this to both of you to solve

 

[MSahla]

permission given from Vietthai
Id like to point out that these are just leaks i dont reccomend using them until they are posted as official in game information, that way its much more accurate and reliable than mere leaks.

It's coming from V.3 of the Beta. And yes, this is Official Translation because it's in game file data.

this could also very much be a title rather than actual status, so please dont use something that isnt introduced in game as an official information.
Thats all i leave this to both of you to solve

Based on the evidences that i provided previously, this is not just a title but even more supporting the fact that they are ruled over the universe. As it stated that the Heavenly Principles are the Laws of the Universe that gives rise to the world of Teyvat.

And the False Constellations (False Sky) and True Constellations (Outer Universe) are still in the dominion of Musica Mundana (Universal Laws)

The universal music is the primordial harmony. All harmonies arise from it and return to it. The false and true constellations (that is, the inner and outer, lower and upper constellations—Eunice will elaborate on this aspect for you), the cycles of seasons and years, the defined elements—everything in the cosmos operates according to the order of this harmony...

Which also confirmed by Barbeloth about this.

Barbeloth: "Now, I'm sure you're curious as to the purpose of this letter. And to that, I say this... If you want to learn how to predict the fate of an entire kingdom, or even the entire world..."

Barbeloth: "Head to Sumeru and search for the gate to an underground kingdom. Once there, open the second letter."

Mona: Let me see here... Yep. It's this one.

Barbeloth: "As the ancient Sumeru saying goes: Rote knowledge bears no fruit, until it is watered with the showers of wisdom. With that in mind, there is a phenomenon in this land known as the 'Sign of Apaosha.'"

Barbeloth: "It is a celestial mark that burns in response to an all-too-ardent desire for the truth. In that sense, perhaps it's more fitting to call it a 'Sign of Truth' instead..."

Barbeloth: The records of this ancient kingdom state there are several large subterranean lakes in Khaenri'ah, clear and calm as mirrors, whose surfaces reflect the true stars.

Barbeloth: "This is because the 'Sign of Truth' created in the water is able to bypass the false sky and connect to the outer universe."

Mona: I had no idea!

Barbeloth: "To observe the gravitational forces and influence of celestial bodies, one must be able to see past the false sky. Only by obtaining these cosmic parameters can one predict the fate of this world."

Barbeloth: "Now, my task for you is as follows: Open a 'Sign of Truth' in front of the gate to Khaenri'ah."

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

It's coming from V.3 of the Beta

NO, we do not count beta versions as reliable source of information as it tends to change over time. So its better to wait for next version.

 

[MSahla]

NO, we do not count beta versions as reliable source of information as it tends to change over time. So its better to wait for next version.

It'll be not much different when its released, but sure i guess.

Anyway, is there any mods who wants to give their thoughts already? You can ask me if theres something that confused you, then i'll explain it again.

 

[RemaxG1]

Hi everyone, I got permission from Antvasima to voice out something. I completely agree with the Low 2-C downgrade for certain characters in Genshin. As a lore enthusiast, I don't believe at all that the Heavenly Principles' rules and Authorities encompass the ENTIRE Universe at all. It's way too inconsistent that they do and there are many reasons for that.

1. Why would the H.P need to specifically usurp a planet that is clearly not theirs?? There are countless other planets in the Universe so why Teyvat?

2. I have never seen anything in Lore that CLEARLY states that they encompass the Universe. Even if there was such statements, it completely inconsistent and the reason for that is simple, "Descenders" are beings that are classified as "Outsiders" from another world but not just any outsider, they need to have the power to Rival, protect and destroy an entire "world". Rene believes that this is what it takes to be a descender (More relevant information here). Anyway my point is the "World" in this context is most likely a Planet not an entire Universe. More evidence as Descenders aren't affected by the whole "Fate System" which is one of the fundamental cogs for running Teyvat. Why aren't they affected?? because they're obviously not from the Planet at all. True we have Trespassers like Skirk and other outsiders who were summoned by Khaenri'ah but they don't transcend fate or the gods and are clearly bound by fate or the rules of the Universe (You can read Perinheri for more details) but this doesn't prove Universal+ effect in my opinion or that Teyvat's Fate System runs across the entire Universe. It's too shallow of an argument and until there's clear information from the game, I completely agree with the downgrade.

3. Why did they need to defeat and steal elemental authorities from the dragons if they affect and encompass the Universe?? Couldn't they just create their own "rules" without usurping a power that's obviously not theirs??

4. I have never seen anything from in-game that Istaroth, Ronova, Naberius and Asmoday's authorities run throughout the universe at all (You can correct me if I'm wrong here). These shades are the embodiment of the Concept they wield but just because you are the embodiment of a concept doesn't mean you encompass that very concept across all reality.



There's more I wanna say but I'll stop here since it's quite early here. Basically my point is I agree with the downgrade. There's little evidence and proper in-depth on the whole 2-C argument.

 

[MSahla]

First of all before i debunk all of your words: I have already debunked all of your claims since the very beginning and even before you got here.
Yes, you heard me.

As a lore enthusiast, I don't believe at all that the Heavenly Principles' rules and Authorities encompass the ENTIRE Universe at all. It's way too inconsistent that they do and there are many reasons for that.

I already proved why they're encompass the entire universe and it is already consistent enough. I assume that you're not reading all of this, at all.

This is why all of opposite side's arguments are just Argument from Belief because they just simply don't believe it without giving any actual evidences from the game.

Spoiler

Yes, they do have universal laws and whenever they said "universal" Is literally what it means. As it said, anything that disturbs the order of the Musica Mundana/Golden String will destroy a frabric of the cosmos.

This is clearly how the Golden String or Musica Mundana governing the whole universe.

The universal music is the primordial harmony. All harmonies arise from it and return to it. The false and true constellations (that is, the inner and outer, lower and upper constellations—Eunice will elaborate on this aspect for you), the cycles of seasons and years, the defined elements—everything in the cosmos operates according to the order of this harmony...

As Cassiodor previously taught you, the “Fortuna” we speak of is not the same as the Supreme One… The latter takes its name from the former; the former is actually the “rule” that governs all universal phenomena, which is what the servants call “fate”…)

The Master of the Heavens once spun the predestined fate of all beings with golden strings. “That is the sacred plan of the heavens; simply follow it, and universal happiness will be yours.”

“Fortuna” governing all phenomena was woven from infinitely fine “fibers,” much like the strings that compose a harp. Strings resonating with majestic music would bring universal happiness, just as discordant sounds would disrupt the fabric of the cosmos.

The golden insignia that fell from the centaur golem's chest. The melody etched upon the shards of stone attached to it seemed like a fragment from some grand musical drama.
Unified legions, unified melodies, unified rhythms—when the Immortal Legion's commander strikes the notes that dare to shake fate, countless flaming greatswords will follow the commander's melody, becoming the glorious chapter that strikes down the enemies of the God-King.
Some once believed the harmonious melody of eternal bliss would resound throughout the cosmos until the very end of all destinies. Yet harmony too undergoes variation. Ultimately, when the rebellious god-king falls from his throne and the immortal capital crumbles to ruins, for whom will the commander's harp, now bereft of its legions, play its final notes?

That princess of (...) answered thusly:
"You speak of the universal law created in heaven, the divine laws established in the beginning."
"No one has seen the eternal law, yet it governs all."
"One may only bow down and worship Vaana of the heavenly spirits — no arrogation, deception, or trickery is permitted."
"If one dares to imitate the forbidden arts, only calamity awaits at the edge of divine knowledge." — Scroll of Streaming Song, Vol.2

This is a very blantant scan that says the Heavenly Principles are the Laws of the Universe that give rise to the world of Teyvat with its content like the Seven Elements of the Mortal Realms.

Everyone who read this carefully would know that Musica Mundana or the Golden String are governing the universe.

1. Why would the H.P need to specifically usurp a planet that is clearly not theirs?? There are countless other planets in the Universe so why Teyvat?

So, in the lore of the new artifacts, it is revealed that Teyvat are one of the new world they chosen to give birth the children of humanity. This is alone already proved that they've already created humans in another worlds.

In that time, the Primordial Dragon born of the Perfumed Sea soared through the deep void, vanishing into the interstellar mists.

The dark-hued fog was so profound that even the starlight filling the heavens could not escape its pull.
To find an answer before this planet too was devoured, the great dragon resolved to set out alone upon a bitter journey.
From the world below, he raised three radiant moons, binding this small world tightly with the tethers of the tides.
Moonlight would shine upon the fertile lands throughout the long night of the end, until the roaming dragon returned from the Land of Mist.
Yet millennium after millennium passed, and the three sisters of the moon never saw their former lord return.
Until that day, when a winged Descender arrived, treading upon the Morning Star…

This was not the great enemy foretold to extinguish the stars, nor did it seem intent on seizing the source that sustained the world’s continuance.
Faced with this uninvited visitor, the three guardians who acted on behalf of the planet’s will were at a loss, locked in endless debate.
But whether submission or rebellion, battle or death, the King of All Armies would mercilessly crush anything that stood in his way.
For this was the new world they had chosen for the children of humanity, and by their design both earth and sky would be remade anew.
Before the conquest of daylight came to its end, the attendants of the night could only watch and wait.

2. I have never seen anything in Lore that CLEARLY states that they encompass the Universe. Even if there was such statements, it completely inconsistent and the reason for that is simple, "Descenders" are beings that are classified as "Outsiders" from another world but not just any outsider, they need to have the power to Rival, protect and destroy an entire "world". Rene believes that this is what it takes to be a descender (More relevant information here). Anyway my point is the "World" in this context is most likely a Planet not an entire Universe. More evidence as Descenders aren't affected by the whole "Fate System" which is one of the fundamental cogs for running Teyvat. Why aren't they affected?? because they're obviously not from the Planet at all. True we have Trespassers like Skirk and other outsiders who were summoned by Khaenri'ah but they don't transcend fate or the gods and are clearly bound by fate or the rules of the Universe (You can read Perinheri for more details) but this doesn't prove Universal+ effect in my opinion or that Teyvat's Fate System runs across the entire Universe. It's too shallow of an argument and until there's clear information from the game, I completely agree with the downgrade.

This is why you have to differentiate between the laws of the Mortal Realm and the Universal laws and i already mentioned it above, like literally. Because what you are talking about here is the Fate System in the Human Realm or Teyvat, not the fate system of the universe.

The fate system of human realm or teyvat was produced from the supreme one, the supreme one is actually the "rule" that governs all universal phenomena.

First of, we must know and differentiate that theres two musics, What is this "musics?"
Musica Mundana and Musica Humana are the ancient remurian terms or concept to described the Laws of the Heavens by using "Music" as their analogies. Musica Mundana, a.k.a, the Golden String, is the Music or String that governs the universe, as it is stated that everything in the universe operates according to this rythym/music/order/string.

And there Musica Humana, a.k.a, the Silver String, are basically the Music/Laws of the Mortal realm

世音律即是本源的音律。一切音律因之而起,因之而终。虚假与真实的星象(即内与外、下与上的星象,优恩尼娅会向你们详述这部分内容), 季节与时岁的往复,被划定的元素,宇宙中的一切都遵循这种音律的秩序运行…

(The universal music is the primordial harmony. All harmonies arise from it and return to it. The false and true constellations (that is, the inner and outer, lower and upper constellations—Eunice will elaborate on this aspect for you), the cycles of seasons and years, the defined elements—everything in the cosmos operates according to the order of this harmony....)


……这里,你们应当注意普世音律与法图纳之间的关联。后者包含于前者, 前者却不等同于后者。任何规格与法图纳相近的音律,均可被称作普世音律,因为其自身便与一个世界等同………

正如卡西奥多此前向你们讲授过的那样,我们所谈论的「法图纳」与至尊并无………后者以前者为名,前者实为主宰万物普遍现象的「规则」,即是奴仆口中的「命运」………

(Here, you should note the connection between universal music and Fortuna. The latter is contained within the former, but the former is not identical to the latter. Any musical scale similar to Fortuna can be called universal music, because it is itself equivalent to a world…

As Cassiodor previously taught you, the “Fortuna” we speak of is not the same as the Supreme One… The latter takes its name from the former; the former is actually the “rule” that governs all universal phenomena, which is what the servants call “fate”…)

………凡灵音律即是俗世的音律。凡人与诸神的音律并无不同,均可被归为此类,因为它们的本质都是普世音律敲击灵魂质体的和音…

……想象一架竖琴,世间每一个实体都对应着这竖琴上的一根细微的弦丝 …………那宏伟的乐声并非来自单独的琴弦,而是来自所有琴弦的共振……这样的乐曲便是我们所说的普世音律………

(…The music of mortals is the music of the mortal world. The music of mortals and gods is no different; both can be categorized into this type, because their essence is the harmony of universal music striking the soul…

…Imagine a harp; every entity in the world corresponds to a tiny string on this harp… The magnificent music does not come from a single string, but from the resonance of all the strings… Such music is what we call universal music…) — Harmosts' Note I

So from here, we know the differences between Musica Mundana and Musica Humana.

Musica Mundana = Laws of the Universe
Musica Humana = Laws of the Mortal Realm (Teyvat)

So, the Descenders are not affected by the Laws of the Mortal Realm is obvious because they're not from Teyvat. But they're still tied to the Universal Laws, which is the Golden String. The proof is that the Traveler themselves who have a Golden Soul.

3. Why did they need to defeat and steal elemental authorities from the dragons if they affect and encompass the Universe?? Couldn't they just create their own "rules" without usurping a power that's obviously not theirs??

This is why i don't agree with yall's reasoning to downgrade this low 2-C, why? Because y'all using hypotheticals, which in no way, disproves that the heavenly principles having universal laws.

"If he can do this, then why he didn't do that? If he can do that, then why is this happening? If he really can do that, then why he didn't do this to preventing it from happening?"

Like bruh..

The Heavenly Principles did not ruled every single planet DIRECTLY, like they did to Teyvat. But, their Laws are encompassing the universe. This is why theres a thing called "Range" exist.

4. I have never seen anything from in-game that Istaroth, Ronova, Naberius and Asmoday's authorities run throughout the universe at all (You can correct me if I'm wrong here).

Watch this Teaser and you'll know it.

---

Conclusion:

I have already 10 steps ahead of you, and you here, did not debunk anything at all other than Arguments from Belief.

 

[Weaver261]

Because what you are talking about here is the Fate System in the Human Realm or Teyvat, not the fate system of the universe.

The fate system of human realm or teyvat was produced from the supreme one, the supreme one is actually the "rule" that governs all universal phenomena.

Sahl, to be honest, your proving logic is going in circle. First of all, you claim that Phanes is universal because the laws are described as universal. But to prove that it's not flowery, u used musica mundana. But musica mundana has its own contradicting scan. So, you reference universal law description again to prove musica mundana is not contradicted. Do you see how this is going?? Then, you add more theories and heacanon connection that aren't explicitly stated in game to backup your already fragile claims with iffy scans.

 

[MSahla]

Sahl, to be honest, your proving logic is going in circle.

?? Because thats the main evidences to prove it?

First of all, you claim that Phanes is universal because the laws are described as universal. But to prove that it's not flowery, u used musica mundana. But musica mundana has its own contradicting scan.

Theres nothing such as "Flowery" whatsoever and you here cannot even explain why is that flowery (and i already debunked all of them anyway). Even then, your explanations is just Argument from Belief and don't prove any actual evidences from the game that stated otherwise.

So, you reference universal law description again to prove musica mundana is not contradicted. Do you see how this is going??

Nothings really contradicted my claims. You just don't understand what i understand about this.

 

[MSahla]

Isn't this wiki not allowed any Hypothetical Arguments, at all? and Argument from Belief is literally one of the fallacies in this wiki on in general when it comes to debating/arguing.

 

[RemaxG1]

First of all before i debunk all of your words: I have already debunked all of your claims since the very beginning and even before you got here.
Yes, you heard me.


I already proved why they're encompass the entire universe and it is already consistent enough. I assume that you're not reading all of this, at all.

This is why all of opposite side's arguments are just Argument from Belief because they just simply don't believe it without giving any actual evidences from the game.

Spoiler

Yes, they do have universal laws and whenever they said "universal" Is literally what it means. As it said, anything that disturbs the order of the Musica Mundana/Golden String will destroy a frabric of the cosmos.

This is clearly how the Golden String or Musica Mundana governing the whole universe.






This is a very blantant scan that says the Heavenly Principles are the Laws of the Universe that give rise to the world of Teyvat with its content like the Seven Elements of the Mortal Realms.

Everyone who read this carefully would know that Musica Mundana or the Golden String are governing the universe.

So, in the lore of the new artifacts, it is revealed that Teyvat are one of the new world they chosen to give birth the children of humanity. This is alone already proved that they've already created humans in another worlds.




This is why you have to differentiate between the laws of the Mortal Realm and the Universal laws and i already mentioned it above, like literally. Because what you are talking about here is the Fate System in the Human Realm or Teyvat, not the fate system of the universe.

The fate system of human realm or teyvat was produced from the supreme one, the supreme one is actually the "rule" that governs all universal phenomena.


So, the Descenders are not affected by the Laws of the Mortal Realm is obvious because they're not from Teyvat. But they're still tied to the Universal Laws, which is the Golden String. The proof is that the Traveler themselves who have a Golden Soul.


This is why i don't agree with yall's reasoning to downgrade this low 2-C, why? Because y'all using hypotheticals, which in no way, disproves that the heavenly principles having universal laws.

"If he can do this, then why he didn't do that? If he can do that, then why is this happening? If he really can do that, then why he didn't do this to preventing it from happening?"

Like bruh..

The Heavenly Principles did not ruled every single planet DIRECTLY, like they did to Teyvat. But, their Laws are encompassing the universe. This is why theres a thing called "Range" exist.


Watch this Teaser and you'll know it.

---

Conclusion:

I have already 10 steps ahead of you, and you here, did not debunk anything at all other than Arguments from Belief.

I'll reply back later today

 

[Weaver261]

Isn't this wiki not allowed any Hypothetical Arguments, at all? and Argument from Belief is literally one of the fallacies in this wiki on in general when it comes to debating/arguing.

I didn't use any hypothetical scenario here. I only proved why Primordial one's actions contradict the fate of the universe. This is already a contradiction. So this raises a question which is why Primordial one does this. This makes your claims fall apart and now it becomes your part to prove how Primordial one actions don't contradict universe's fate. You can't just say I am proposing hypothetical scenario of why Primordial one actions contradict the universe's fate if he is the master of the universe. Do you understand what I am saying here?

 

[MSahla]

I didn't use any hypothetical scenario here. I only proved why Primordial one's actions contradict the fate of the universe. This is already a contradiction. So this raises a question which is why Primordial one does this. This makes your claims fall apart and now it becomes your part to prove how Primordial one actions don't contradict universe's fate. You can't just say I am proposing hypothetical scenario of why Primordial one actions contradict the universe's fate if he is the master of the universe. Do you understand what I am saying here?

Are u expecting the Heavenly Principles do something to the Universe's fate so its not get destroyed? Yeah, sure you are.

Hence, your arguments is Hypotheticals which basically saying something like this:

If he can do that, then why he didn't do this to prevent it from happening?

Sometimes it would also called PIS. Go ask Hoyo why he didn't do that, buddy. Because just because he don't do anything like you said, doesn't mean they're not all that.

The Universal Laws of the Heavenly Principles will continue to resonate until the end of all things

the harmonious melody of eternal bliss would resound throughout the cosmos until the very end of all destinies

 

[Firestorm808]

OP seems okay.

 

[RemaxG1]

First of all before i debunk all of your words: I have already debunked all of your claims since the very beginning and even before you got here.
Yes, you heard me.

Oh will you now?? Listen, first of I'm not interested in your debunk and do you know why?? It's because I didn't come here to answer or debunk ANYTHING bruh. I am ONLY here to point out inconsistencies as to WHY I agreed to this. So you saying this proves how big your ego is bruh

I already proved why they're encompass the entire universe and it is already consistent enough. I assume that you're not reading all of this, at all.

This is why all of opposite side's arguments are just Argument from Belief because they just simply don't believe it without giving any actual evidences from the game.

Everything you've said so far are nothing but theories to be honest. I can make a theory that Nibuleng's the second descender or that Teyvat is this whole giant simulation created by the H.P and I can be INSTANTLY proven wrong once a new patch or update begins. That is why I said "I don't agree with your argument FOR NOW" because there's nothing in the Archon quests OR Story quests that ACTUALLY state your claims bruh. You did a good job by crafting one heck of a theory there but sorry I can't agree till it's stated in either an Archon quest, Story quest or World quests or wtv. That is all I'm saying here.

This is why you have to differentiate between the laws of the Mortal Realm and the Universal laws and i already mentioned it above, like literally. Because what you are talking about here is the Fate System in the Human Realm or Teyvat, not the fate system of the universe.

The fate system of human realm or teyvat was produced from the supreme one, the supreme one is actually the "rule" that governs all universal phenomena.

Again listen, I wasn't replying to you bruh, just my thoughts on WHY I agree with this thread, that is why I said earlier that your debunk literally means nothing to me. You can verify from Antvasima, once again, I ONLY cane here to voice out something, not to debunk or Claim anything.

This is why i don't agree with yall's reasoning to downgrade this low 2-C, why? Because y'all using hypotheticals, which in no way, disproves that the heavenly principles having universal laws.

"If he can do this, then why he didn't do that? If he can do that, then why is this happening? If he really can do that, then why he didn't do this to preventing it from happening?"

Like bruh..

The Heavenly Principles did not ruled every single planet DIRECTLY, like they did to Teyvat. But, their Laws are encompassing the universe. This is why theres a thing called "Range" exist.

As for this reply, I 100% disagree with you. The only using Hypotheticals is you bruh. It has been stated in game MULTIPLE times that they are the Ruler of this planet an nothing more so how is the H.P ruling other planets "Indirectly"??

That is why I said THEY HAVE LAWS. Anyone who breaks those laws are ALWAYS punished. There are countless other worlds who dabble with the Abyss but have NEVER been punished for that why?? BECAUSE THEIR RULES DON'T APPLY THERE. That is my reasoning for not agreeing to this.

If their laws are "universal", then structures like Irminsul SHOULD ALSO have Universal ranges. The Seven Authorities from the Dragons that the H.P stole SHOULD ALSO have Universal ranges. Do you see my problem with your argument?? I want you to DIRECTLY prove this without using the "Musica Mundana/Golden String" or wtv it's called.

Watch this Teaser and you'll know it.

Bruh do you know how many times I've watched this?? (Cuz I like Ronova's design a lot lol) but in all seriousness nothing in that trailer screams "Oh I rule the universe" or whatnot.

Conclusion:

I have already 10 steps ahead of you, and you here, did not debunk anything at all other than Arguments from Belief

Lol this is why I said you have a big ego. So I'm going with "Arguments from Belief" now?? When your whole argument haven't been verified from any main quests at all. I can be disproven anytime once it states clearly IN-GAME that they do. So in all honesty, I'm not satisfied with your argument.

 

[MSahla]

Oh will you now?? Listen, first of I'm not interested in your debunk and do you know why?? It's because I didn't come here to answer or debunk ANYTHING bruh. I am ONLY here to point out inconsistencies as to WHY I agreed to this. So you saying this proves how big your ego is bruh

So your appereance here is not necessary then if you're here to be just ignorant lmao. because, all of your questions and claims have already debunked by me.

"Oh im not here to debate with that guy, im here to tell that i agree with this and i dont care about that guy's explanation, i just simply don't believe whatever the hell he saying"

Everything you've said so far are nothing but theories to be honest. I can make a theory that Nibuleng's the second descender or that Teyvat is this whole giant simulation created by the H.P and I can be INSTANTLY proven wrong once a new patch or update begins. That is why I said "I don't agree with your argument FOR NOW" because there's nothing in the Archon quests OR Story quests that ACTUALLY state your claims bruh. You did a good job by crafting one heck of a theory there but sorry I can't agree till it's stated in either an Archon quest, Story quest or World quests or wtv. That is all I'm saying here.

"Theory"
Yeah this guy didn't know anything about this game tbh, i am so sorry.

As for this reply, I 100% disagree with you. The only using Hypotheticals is you bruh. It has been stated in game MULTIPLE times that they are the Ruler of this planet an nothing more so how is the H.P ruling other planets "Indirectly"??

And it has been stated many times that their laws are are universal by literally, guess who's the loreskipper? You think i'm here to just coping? Hell nawh

There are countless other worlds who dabble with the Abyss but have NEVER been punished for that why?? BECAUSE THEIR RULES DON'T APPLY THERE. That is my reasoning for not agreeing to this.

Those lowly creatures aren't even a big threat to them
Have you ever seen Durin and Skirk getting punished immediately by them?

I want you to DIRECTLY prove this without using the "Musica Mundana/Golden String" or wtv it's called.

Oh my, i already proved that.
If you're still asking then you dont read anything.

Bruh do you know how many times I've watched this?? (Cuz I like Ronova's design a lot lol) but in all seriousness nothing in that trailer screams "Oh I rule the universe" or whatnot.

That trailers proves they're not limited nor bound to a single planet. Simple.
Unless you don't know the context of that whole teaser.

When your whole argument haven't been verified from any main quests at all. I can be disproven anytime once it states clearly IN-GAME that they do. So in all honesty, I'm not satisfied with your argument.

"Haven't been verified from any main quest"

lmao you think those world quests, books and descriptions are not canon or something? I have eyes to read and i have brain to think. You think Genshin's lore is just coming from the Archon Quest? You're just a casual genshin player atp buddy.

 

[MSahla]

This is like.. The worst downgrade that ever exist in this wiki with these reasoning, which coming from Hypotheticals and Argument from Belief. And apparently, the mods agreed to this. (Which i doubted they even read about my arguments, i am so sorry.)

None of these guys actually proving a real, actual, literal evidence from the game thats blantantly debunked my arguments (which has the actual evidences on it), other than hypothetically and argument from belief (that remaxg1 guy is the biggest example)

 

[RemaxG1]

So your appereance here is not necessary then if you're here to be just ignorant lmao. because, all of your questions and claims have already debunked by me.

"Oh im not here to debate with that guy, im here to tell that i agree with this and i dont care about that guy's explanation, i just simply don't believe whatever the hell he saying"

My appearance here is 100% justified are you that arrogant that you think the whole world revolves around you?? I already gave you the reason as to why I'm here pal and you're the one who decided to tag me so I REALLY don't know what your are trying to prove

"Theory"
Yeah this guy didn't know anything about this game tbh, i am so sorry.

Oh and yet I've been playing for 2 years Awww you're sooo smart for coming up with such rational conclusions.

Those lowly creatures aren't even a big threat to them
Have you ever seen Durin and Skirk getting punished immediately by them?

And you're calling me a Lore-Skipper when it's OBVIOUS that they are NOT awake yet. For someone who "Encompasses" the laws of the Universe get severely hurt and has to take a nap for 5 centuries just to cope with the damage lol. The ONLY reason why Skirk is even on Teyvat is because Alice tolerates her existence there NOT because of the H.P or wtv.

That trailers proves they're not limited nor bound to a single planet. Simple.
Unless you don't know the context of that whole teaser.

They may not be bound by the planet but NOT the universe bro.

lmao you think those world quests, books and descriptions are not canon or something? I have eyes to read and i have brain to think. You think Genshin's lore is just coming from the Archon Quest? You're just a casual genshin player atp buddy.

I never said books aren't canon, Books in game can be disproven once the main story line concludes. Sigh...

 

[MSahla]

My appearance here is 100% justified are you that arrogant that you think the whole world revolves around you?? I already gave you the reason as to why I'm here pal and you're the one who decided to tag me so I REALLY don't know what your are trying to prove

Nor i dont really know what are u even here if youre just to be ignorant.

You're here is just like
"Hey guys, wassup? I am here to vote my voice that i agree with this. Why? Because i don't believe whatever he says about this"

Oh and yet I've been playing for 2 years Awww you're sooo smart for coming up with such rational conclusions.

I dont care how long you've been playing this game, even a day 1 player can be a loreskipper lmao.
(And i have played this game more than 4 years)

And you're calling me a Lore-Skipper when it's OBVIOUS that they are NOT awake yet.

Yes you are. You are just a casual player and only know the lore through the Archon Quest. Am i right or am i right?

For someone who "Encompasses" the laws of the Universe get severely hurt and has to take a nap for 5 centuries just to cope with the damage lol. The ONLY reason why Skirk is even on Teyvat is because Alice tolerates her existence there NOT because of the H.P or wtv.

Simple, The Abyss is just that strong that they can harm the Heavenly Principles

but NOT the universe bro.

Any evidences to support this?

I never said books aren't canon, Books in game can be disproven once the main story line concludes. Sigh...

For example?

 

[RemaxG1]

Nor i dont really know what are u even here if youre just to be ignorant.

You're here is just like
"Hey guys, wassup? I am here to vote my voice that i agree with this. Why? Because i don't believe whatever he says about this"


I dont care how long you've been playing this game, even a day 1 player can be a loreskipper lmao.
(And i have played this game more than 4 years)


Yes you are. You are just a casual player and only know the lore through the Archon Quest. Am i right or am i right?


Simple, The Abyss is just that strong that they can harm the Heavenly Principles


Any evidences to support this?


For example?

Sigh this is getting nowhere to be honest and I feel like this is a waste of time. I'll just wait for one one who opened this thread to conclude whether or not this debate has been lost. I'll see you in another thread. Good work by the way