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The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread
- Thread starter The_Impress
- Start date
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- Tags
- marvel comics
Excellence616
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Thor, Hulk and Sentry varies narratively and based on feats I can see Hulk and Thor at 1-A and Sentry and Surfer at High 1-B
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That seems extremely exaggerated.
MrKerf
He/Him- 2,709
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That seems extremely exaggerated.
Excellence616
He/Him- 6,969
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In terms of?That seems extremely exaggerated.
GeneralSol16
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Consistency, narrative, logic, feats and a little bit of common sense.
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Hard to say.
Personally I don't like any of the High 1-B evidence we are using. Crossroads of Infinity is connected to infinite dimensions/realms, I don't see anything implying infinite spatial dimensions. Reed only says 6 dimensions, nothing at all about infinite. The Ghostworks has one appearance, and the Cascade is so irrelevant to Marvel's cosmology that it doesn't even have a page on the Marvel Database. Both were mentioned once or twice in an obscure series that has never been mentioned ever again. The Beyonder is stated to be infinite dimensional, but considering how heavily retconned Secret Wars I & II are, I don't see why we should still treat that statement as legitimate when was acknowledge everything else about him has been changed by retcons. It seems like 12 dimensions are much more consistent, unless there are any other statements for High 1-B to be used instead.
As for Heralds, there are many feats of them affecting every plane of reality. Most of these are about Yggdrasil: Thor has like 5, Storm has 1, and Hercules has 1. There is also Eric Masteron and Dargo Ktor's feat of unleashed mystical energy across every plane of reality. There are several High 3-A feats liking shaking the universe (which is infinite) or destroying. This leaves me with two questions:
Personally I don't like any of the High 1-B evidence we are using. Crossroads of Infinity is connected to infinite dimensions/realms, I don't see anything implying infinite spatial dimensions. Reed only says 6 dimensions, nothing at all about infinite. The Ghostworks has one appearance, and the Cascade is so irrelevant to Marvel's cosmology that it doesn't even have a page on the Marvel Database. Both were mentioned once or twice in an obscure series that has never been mentioned ever again. The Beyonder is stated to be infinite dimensional, but considering how heavily retconned Secret Wars I & II are, I don't see why we should still treat that statement as legitimate when was acknowledge everything else about him has been changed by retcons. It seems like 12 dimensions are much more consistent, unless there are any other statements for High 1-B to be used instead.
As for Heralds, there are many feats of them affecting every plane of reality. Most of these are about Yggdrasil: Thor has like 5, Storm has 1, and Hercules has 1. There is also Eric Masteron and Dargo Ktor's feat of unleashed mystical energy across every plane of reality. There are several High 3-A feats liking shaking the universe (which is infinite) or destroying. This leaves me with two questions:
- To what degree do Heralds scale to gods like Thor and Hercules? Personally, I don't think there is much implication that they are on completely different levels. Before I thought that Thor was vastly more powerful than any Herald Tiers, but now I'm not sure if that's the case, and I don't really have a problem with any 3-C or Low 1-C character scaling to him.
- Can characters affect all of Earth-616's planes of reality in a way that doesn't make them higher dimensional (or worse, 1-A)? Like could affecting all of Earth-616 be a 2-A feat rather than a High 1-B feat, in the same way that destroying a universe is 3-A or Low 2-C depending on context?
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I will note that the 8 Deaths of Spider-Man series also has this for infinite-dimensions:
Plus I just sent you a link to some other higher dimension stuff on discord.
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The word "dimensions" is often used as a synonym for parallell universes in Marvel Comics, especially for magical characters.I will note that the 8 Deaths of Spider-Man series also has this for infinite-dimensions:
Plus I just sent you a link to some other higher dimension stuff on discord.
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In this context it seems to refer to spatial dimensions.The word "dimensions" is often used as a synonym for parallell universes in Marvel Comics, especially for magical characters.
MrKerf
He/Him- 2,709
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Not in this case, though. Here, pages later, Peter talks about space-time model, as they infinitely go further and further in scale, shrinking. Eventually, due to the Torus model of the universe being correct, Pete also enlarges, becoming both smallest and biggest at the same time.The word "dimensions" is often used as a synonym for parallell universes in Marvel Comics, especially for magical characters.
"Cause of death... Instantaneous dissolution of your atoms through an infinitely recursive fold of space..."
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Before that Reed said about 4-dimensional reality. So it also connects all spatial dimensions.
Ghostworks is part of cyberspace, so it cyberspace infinity-d (ghostworks is above 12-d). And cyberspace have many appearances.
In Defenders: beyond we know what nothing from Secret wars I & II is retconed.
They literally talk about space and not universes/parallel dimensions.
+ There also infinity layers of universe from strange in shamballa
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Even if that is correct, it likely refers to the entire multiverse rather than the local universe.
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The Beyonder being millions of times more powerful than all abstract entities in the multiverse combined has certainly still been retconned, as has his stature in general.
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IIRC the Abstracts were heavily holding back in order to peacefully detain him.The Beyonder being millions of times more powerful than all abstract entities in the multiverse combined has certainly still been retconned, as has his stature in general.
But what was retconned was his realm being "beyond all dimensions"
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Hence an explicit retcon, as that was not the case originally according to the narration.
Well, it was stated to be infinite-dimensional originally, but larger than and outside of the Marvel multiverse.
MrKerf
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Adding to what I said above, neither Cyttorak nor his children, are multiversal in nature, and have no reason to refer to it.Even if that is correct, it likely refers to the entire multiverse rather than the local universe.
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I agree with MrKerf, there's no reason for him to be referencing the entire multiverseJust because they do not reach that scale themselves, this does not mean that they are unaware of it.
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There is no reason to assume that he is referencing the local universe just because he may or may not say that infinite dimensions exist, regardless if he means parallell universes or higher spatial dimensions.
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In the original two Secret Wars, wasn't the Beyonder explicitly bigger and more powerful than the entire Marvel Multiverse combined? That has definitely been retconned
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The original Beyond realm was a Universal Beyond realm (called Womb-Space on the Marvel Wiki) that is explicitly a part of Earth-616 as explained on the cosmology blog. The clear interpretation is that it's just transcendent of the lesser 2-A multiverse in Earth-616 (which is a given seeing as the being who embodies the realm possesses infinite spatal dimensions).
I remember seeing those scans earlier this year, and I jotted down this context in my notes (though I may have to reread the chapters).The word "dimensions" is often used as a synonym for parallell universes in Marvel Comics, especially for magical characters.
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Ok but the wiki also says:
"The Beyonder's universe was originally described as a universe so large that Earth-616 was like a droplet of water to the ocean compared to it. The Beyonder claimed it was bigger than the whole Multiverse.[17] The Beyonder, who was his universe, was described to have millions of times more power than the entire Multiverse combined.[16]
This was all retconned in Fantastic Four #319: The Beyonder was not as all-powerful as he thought, his realm was simply a pocket of sentient energy created by the extradimensional Beyonders (that he was not aware of), said pockets of energy are normally used for the creation of Cosmic Cubes but this one got a hole poked into it by the accident of Owen Reece, and so the Beyonder was more or less a failed Cosmic Cube."
This realm has been retconned multiple times, we can't pick and choose pre-retcon statements to consider valid
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This whole fan-written wiki note is based on the idea that Earth-616 was described as a droplet of water compared with the Beyonder's universe, which isn't true, the original statement just said "universe," not Earth-616.
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The phrasing of "beyond... the myriad dimensions" leads me to believe that it isn't just talking about the main "universe" in Earth-616, but rather all of it. But admittedly it's been years since I read Secret Wars, so I will reread and reevaluate
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Yes, he was explicitly stated by narration to be several millions of times more powerful than the entire Marvel multiverse combined.
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Strongly agreed.
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Anyway, we really need to stop scaling Marvel cosmology from retconned statements about The Beyonder and unreliable interpretations of the Crossroads of Infinity. A rework in those regards would be greatly appreciated and supported by myself.
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Why retconed statements about beyonder should change number of dimensions in womb space?
Why unreliable? It many times stated what positive universe and negative zone have many dimensions and infinity space-time planes.
Btw I also remembered infinity-d from venom the end (confirmed by author also)
Excellence616
He/Him- 6,969
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So Narratively Hulk, Thor and Sentry don't varies and Hulk and Thor don't have 1-A feats?
Excellence616
He/Him- 6,969
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Infinite dimensions for the Marvel multiverse as a whole, sure, but it seems extremely inconsistent with the general portrayals for individual universes, and leads to completely exaggerated statistics for many characters.
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Not really, given how there are so many beings in a single universe who are blatantly higher-dimensional.Infinite dimensions for the Marvel multiverse as a whole, sure, but it seems extremely inconsistent with the general portrayals for individual universes.
One of the most clear-cut examples is Dormammu, who is consistently shown to be beyond space and time in a transcendent sense (even calling them "dirty little geometries" in a more recent comic).
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