Superman speed upgrade and abilities addition

[FroYoSans]

This is while Superboy-Prime has immeasurable speed, but Superman does not...

Don't forget Wally West and Barry Allen are both listed as High Outer for affecting the SoG And ofc absorbing the entire Speed Force (which they haven't done since Post Crisis to my knowledge). While Superman stays at Low 2C...While I agree with their ratings Superman being that low compared to them is insane

 

[Hayato5652]

Don't forget Wally West and Barry Allen are both listed as High Outer for affecting the SoG And ofc absorbing the entire Speed Force (which they haven't done since Post Crisis to my knowledge). While Superman stays at Low 2C...While I agree with their ratings Superman being that low compared to them is insane

For now, let’s focus on speed… and send a message to the Message Wall staff members so they can check this CRT

 

[FroYoSans]

For now, let’s focus on speed… and send a message to the Message Wall staff members so they can check this CRT

Fair enough, just pointing out that Superman's ratings are egregiously low for seemingly no reason

 

[Antvasima]

• Intangibility is probably fine, considering Flash has it for the same phasing ability, not to mention an excerpt on the intangibility page for phasing
• I don't know if I would give Supes resistance to other Power Null since his weakness to Kryptonite was always a personal physiological weakness rather than a general ability that nullifies powers. For the sake of indexing the resistance, though, you could probably give it Limited Power Null and explicitly say in the justification that this is talking about a resistance to Kryptonite.
• MFTL+ (combat, flight, and travel speed justification), Immeasurable via Time Travel (Justification about how they can accelerate fast enough to move through time), should be fine, kinda like The Flash has.
• Time Travel on his profile is ofc fine.
• Neutral on the Eternal Life bit for Supes for similar reasons to DDM, though I'm definitely open to the opinions of other, more knowledgeable DC supporters on it.

Thank you for helping out.

@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeThree @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @Catzlaflame @Lightning_XXI @Excellence616 @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @Maverick_Zero_X @Robo432343 @LordTracer @Alonik @ProfectusInfinity @PrinceStories @Asterotheology @Zensum @KingEzran @Dark-Carioca @AerrowStorm1 @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @Armorchompy @Osemere @Eficiente @Adr10K @Rex_Eckles @The_Impress @Rosa

What do you think about this?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I commented earlier, but Godernet's post looks good to me.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

I agree with Godernet's take

 

[Firestorm808]

Scan sources?

 

[Rgerdeena]

Scan sources?

Action comics 992
Batman/superman: world’s finest 39
Adventures of Superman: book of el 2
Batman/Superman: world’s finest 1
Action comics 1091
Superman volume 5 12
Action comics 1053
Action comics 1049
Superman volume 6 18
Superman volume 6 19
Superman unlimited 1
Superman unlimited 2

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Would this affect other Kryptonians?

 

[Eficiente]

These days, being fast enough to time travel will commonly be said to be Immeasurable speed. But this is not always the case, the Speed page has a vague wording about it that explains as much, misinterpreted as always meaning Immeasurable speed.

• "However, traveling to different time periods through movement is a common feat in fiction that often leads to inconsistencies and has been done via FTL travel or running laps around the earth faster than it rotates. This can lead to characters being assigned an additional, independent, speed rating for the ability. This should preferably be evaluated case by case."
  • So because it "can lead" to characters being assigned an additional stat, that is not always the case.
• "Immeasurable speed characters are far beyond even those Infinite speed characters listed above. They perceive infinite speed characters as completely frozen, and they can travel forward and backward in time at will. They have the speed necessary to hop from the beginning of time, to the end of time, and anywhere in between as casually as a human being can roll their eyes left or right. This also means their reaction time is faster than instantaneous. They can dodge an attack that already has been struck, and they can strike someone even before they launched an attack. And they can do all of this via sheer speed.
  • Now let's look back at Superman:
    • He needed Flash's Cosmic Treadmill to do this.
    • Cannot time travel freestyle with pinpoint accuracy, attributing this with the timeline being corrupted. I don't think the timeline is corrupted in such a way that points in time change at Immeasurable speed so that Immeasurable speed time travelers don't know where they are. It makes infinitely more sense if Superman relies on Time Travel as an ability to time travel, rather than Immeasurable speed. He still uses "raw speed," just FTL speeds or so.
    • Superman says time travel with raw speed is risky and unpredictable. This would not be the case if he had Immeasurable speed while time travelling, because that would mean he would have infinite reactions to each point in time in which he sets foot on; Each one at a time. The fact that he blames time travel for being ricky means he lacks the speed to make it predictable. He expects the results of time travel handed to him w/o needing to react to the process at Immeasurable speed.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Eficiente seems to make sense here.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I don't think the timeline is corrupted in such a way that points in time change at Immeasurable speed so that Immeasurable speed time travelers don't know where they are.

This part confuses me, how could we tell what conditions are necessary for an Immeasurable speed character to not know where they are?

In these circumstances, how would Superman using FTL speeds to time travel as an ability make more sense? How would Superman be able to navigate through time normally, since he's not using navigation machines or going a predetermined route?

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't understand.

 

[Rgerdeena]

• He needed Flash's Cosmic Treadmill to do this.

First of all I’ve heard multiple interpretations of what that thing actually does and second of all that feat
is just supporting evidence

• Cannot time travel freestyle with pinpoint accuracy, attributing this with the timeline being corrupted. I don't think the timeline is corrupted in such a way that points in time change at Immeasurable speed so that Immeasurable speed time travelers don't know where they are. It makes infinitely more sense if Superman relies on Time Travel as an ability to time travel, rather than Immeasurable speed. He still uses "raw speed," just FTL speeds or so.

How do you think the timeline was corrupted because you have provided no reasoning as to why you think that the timeline being corrupted wouldn’t mess up time travel via immeasurable speed and what do you mean it makes more sense if Superman uses time travel to time travel that makes no sense because time travel does not allow time travel, time travel is time travel and he definitely is not time traveling merely by being FTL because he and characters that he can keep up with go FTL all the time without time traveling

• Superman says time travel with raw speed is risky and unpredictable. This would not be the case if he had Immeasurable speed while time travelling, because that would mean he would have infinite reactions to each point in time in which he sets foot on; Each one at a time. The fact that he blames time travel for being ricky means he lacks the speed to make it predictable. He expects the results of time travel handed to him w/o needing to react to the process at Immeasurable speed.

just because he can react to a point in time he travels to doesn’t mean he knows what’s going to happen if he goes there before he even goes there and time travel being risky has nothing to do with speed just because you have immeasurable speed doesn’t mean you know exactly what will happen and your last sentence doesn’t even make sense nothing suggests he expects the results to be handed to him he literally expects to not know what the results would be and also knowing what the results of something will be has nothing to do with being able to react to it

 

[Rgerdeena]

Would this affect other Kryptonians?

Probably not since canonically Superman’s powers are the most developed because he’s been exposed to earth’s sun the longest so stuff he displays probably doesn’t apply to other kryptonians unless they display it

 

[Eficiente]

This part confuses me, how could we tell what conditions are necessary for an Immeasurable speed character to not know where they are?

Let's say Superman is at point 1 in time and wants to go to point 10 in time. He implies that the timeline being corrupted is the reason as to why he can't do that (He later reveals this is not the case, but we will ignore that for now). So for Superman to have Immeasurable speed, he would need to reach point 10 in time and react to it at Immeasurable speed, but the timeline would need to change points in time around, to the point where Superman ends up in, say, point 7 in time. But the timeline would need to do this at Immeasurable speed, or else a Superman with Immeasurable speed would overcome its "corruption" and land in the point in time he wants.

And this obviously requires a lot of speculation. The timeline being corrupted is a poor excuse; Superman saying that at all goes to show he doesn't react to his time travel at Immeasurable speed (on top of the other statement he gives).

In these circumstances, how would Superman using FTL speeds to time travel as an ability make more sense? How would Superman be able to navigate through time normally, since he's not using navigation machines or going a predetermined route?

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't understand.

The same way one can be "strong enough" to punch the ground, activate a distant volcano, but not destroy the area around oneself. The physics and logic are different. Superman's speed triggers Time Travel, and that means he can choose any era he wants, as if by magic.

Mind you, this is not more or less logical than the idea of "Immeasurable speed" itself. They're both the fantasy of doing something normal humans can't, however:

• Fiction often creates Time Travel with some level of science to back up its logic to a small degree. This is why we see so many speed-based Time Travel, because going faster than light warps time. As to how that justifies characters in fiction knowing where they're going? Well, it doesn't. They just know it. That's just something they can do.
• "Time Travel as an ability" and "Time Travel via Immeasurable speed" are still not the same, because the more likely interpretation requires the smallest assumptions, and Immeasurable speed is an infinitely higher assumption, times 2. So it requires strong evidence (Obviously, I'm not saying it's impossible). But in this case specifically, Superman reveals he doesn't know where he's going and where he will end up when time travelling.

Hope you find this reply satisfactory to your question.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Let's say Superman is at point 1 in time and wants to go to point 10 in time. He implies that the timeline being corrupted is the reason as to why he can't do that (He later reveals this is not the case, but we will ignore that for now). So for Superman to have Immeasurable speed, he would need to reach point 10 in time and react to it at Immeasurable speed, but the timeline would need to change points in time around, to the point where Superman ends up in, say, point 7 in time. But the timeline would need to do this at Immeasurable speed, or else a Superman with Immeasurable speed would overcome its "corruption" and land in the point in time he wants.

And this obviously requires a lot of speculation. The timeline being corrupted is a poor excuse; Superman saying that at all goes to show he doesn't react to his time travel at Immeasurable speed (on top of the other statement he gives).

The same way one can be "strong enough" to punch the ground, activate a distant volcano, but not destroy the area around oneself. The physics and logic are different. Superman's speed triggers Time Travel, and that means he can choose any era he wants, as if by magic.

Mind you, this is not more or less logical than the idea of "Immeasurable speed" itself. They're both the fantasy of doing something normal humans can't, however:

• Fiction often creates Time Travel with some level of science to back up its logic to a small degree. This is why we see so many speed-based Time Travel, because going faster than light warps time. As to how that justifies characters in fiction knowing where they're going? Well, it doesn't. They just know it. That's just something they can do.
• "Time Travel as an ability" and "Time Travel via Immeasurable speed" are still not the same, because the more likely interpretation requires the smallest assumptions, and Immeasurable speed is an infinitely higher assumption, times 2. So it requires strong evidence (Obviously, I'm not saying it's impossible). But in this case specifically, Superman reveals he doesn't know where he's going and where he will end up when time travelling.

Hope you find this reply satisfactory to your question.

Thanks, I think I understand it.

I'm not sure if I completely agree, but it does make sense. Regardless, if it's wiki standards, that's just how it is.

What was that bit about Superman revealing the timestream wasn't corrupted?

 

[Rgerdeena]

Let's say Superman is at point 1 in time and wants to go to point 10 in time. He implies that the timeline being corrupted is the reason as to why he can't do that (He later reveals this is not the case, but we will ignore that for now). So for Superman to have Immeasurable speed, he would need to reach point 10 in time and react to it at Immeasurable speed, but the timeline would need to change points in time around, to the point where Superman ends up in, say, point 7 in time. But the timeline would need to do this at Immeasurable speed, or else a Superman with Immeasurable speed would overcome its "corruption" and land in the point in time he wants.

And this obviously requires a lot of speculation. The timeline being corrupted is a poor excuse; Superman saying that at all goes to show he doesn't react to his time travel at Immeasurable speed (on top of the other statement he gives).

If the timeline is corrupted then for obvious reasons time wouldn’t be flowing properly which would mean that points in time could be in the wrong spot which would mean that point 7 could absolutely be where point 10 should be

The same way one can be "strong enough" to punch the ground, activate a distant volcano, but not destroy the area around oneself. The physics and logic are different. Superman's speed triggers Time Travel, and that means he can choose any era he wants, as if by magic.

That doesn’t make time travel via FTL speed more logical than time travel via immeasurable speed none of that has anything to do with how time travel via FTL speed makes more sense than time travel via immeasurable speed

• Fiction often creates Time Travel with some level of science to back up its logic to a small degree. This is why we see so many speed-based Time Travel, because going faster than light warps time. As to how that justifies characters in fiction knowing where they're going? Well, it doesn't. They just know it. That's just something they can do.

None of that applies to Superman because he goes faster than light all the time without time traveling so that clearly isn’t the speed he uses to time travel and you debunked your other arguments with that because as you said enough speed to time travel doesn’t Automatically mean someone knows when to go so Superman saying he can’t time travel with pinpoint accuracy and time travel is risky doesn’t counteract evidence of his speed

• "Time Travel as an ability" and "Time Travel via Immeasurable speed" are still not the same, because the more likely interpretation requires the smallest assumptions, and Immeasurable speed is an infinitely higher assumption, times 2. So it requires strong evidence (Obviously, I'm not saying it's impossible). But in this case specifically, Superman reveals he doesn't know where he's going and where he will end up when time travelling.

First of all he litterally said he time travels by raw speed not from time travel as an ability so we aren’t assuming much and second of all as I just said you just debunked your own argument because as you said a character being fast enough to time travel has nothing to do with if they know where to go

 

[Eficiente]

What was that bit about Superman revealing the timestream wasn't corrupted?

He reveals he can't time travel precisely by himself on this scan. I was going off this other scan earlier in which he also says as much while implying the timeline's corruption to be the reason for it.

It's kind of a common trope in Marvel and DC, in which a character explains why X overpowered thing can't be used as a common resource, and so the writers overcompensate and give all the reasons they can come up with rather than what is consistent in-universe. If Superman finds time travel imprecise by himself, he should say as much the first time around, not imply it's due to the timeline's corruption. He's misinforming the people around. It's a small nitpick, but there are worse examples of this "trope," if you could call it that.

 

[Rgerdeena]

It's kind of a common trope in Marvel and DC, in which a character explains why X overpowered thing can't be used as a common resource, and so the writers overcompensate and give all the reasons they can come up with rather than what is consistent in-universe. If Superman finds time travel imprecise by himself, he should say as much the first time around, not imply it's due to the timeline's corruption. He's misinforming the people around. It's a small nitpick, but there are worse examples of this "trope," if you could call it that.

He isn’t misinforming anyone because he said he can’t do it with pinpoint accuracy implying he doesn’t even know when he’ll end up whereas when the timeline is normal he says time travel is risky implying that he doesn’t know what the effects of him time traveling would be and those are entirely different things

 

[Eficiente]

If the timeline is corrupted then for obvious reasons time wouldn’t be flowing properly which would mean that points in time could be in the wrong spot which would mean that point 7 could absolutely be where point 10 should be

That is assuming that is what he meant; The timeline is not just altered once, but constantly changing & being altered (Which is a bigger assumption). And that this constant change in the timeline happens at Immeasurable speed (Which is a far, far bigger assumption).

Unless you mean to say that the constant change doesn't happen at Immeasurable speed, at which point a Superman with Immeasurable speed should overcome it.

But none of this talk is needed, since we got to know more about his time travel.

That doesn’t make time travel via FTL speed more logical than time travel via immeasurable speed none of that has anything to do with how time travel via FTL speed makes more sense than time travel via immeasurable speed

I explain my point better later on the comment, why cover that part alone.

None of that applies to Superman because he goes faster than light all the time without time traveling so that clearly isn’t the speed he uses to time travel

That doesn't matter because he doesn't go faster than light while trying to time travel all the time. It's not a binary on whether or not the character has FTL feats or not, the intentionality of their moves matters to determine what special things activate due to them.

and you debunked your other arguments with that because as you said enough speed to time travel doesn’t Automatically mean someone knows when to go so Superman saying he can’t time travel with pinpoint accuracy and time travel is risky doesn’t counteract evidence of his speed

and second of all as I just said you just debunked your own argument because as you said a character being fast enough to time travel has nothing to do with if they know where to go

I said more things than that.

First of all he litterally said he time travels by raw speed not from time travel as an ability so we aren’t assuming much

Remember this?:

• "Fiction often creates Time Travel with some level of science to back up its logic to a small degree. This is why we see so many speed-based Time Travel, because going faster than light warps time. As to how that justifies characters in fiction knowing where they're going? Well, it doesn't. They just know it. That's just something they can do."

What do you take from it?

Is someone time travelling via FTL speed not doing so via "raw speed"? No, they are using speed. We can't reject that nuance.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

These days, being fast enough to time travel will commonly be said to be Immeasurable speed. But this is not always the case, the Speed page has a vague wording about it that explains as much, misinterpreted as always meaning Immeasurable speed.

• "However, traveling to different time periods through movement is a common feat in fiction that often leads to inconsistencies and has been done via FTL travel or running laps around the earth faster than it rotates. This can lead to characters being assigned an additional, independent, speed rating for the ability. This should preferably be evaluated case by case."

We don't see casual Superman time travelling just because he's MFTL+ either

• "Immeasurable speed characters are far beyond even those Infinite speed characters listed above. They perceive infinite speed characters as completely frozen, and they can travel forward and backward in time at will. They have the speed necessary to hop from the beginning of time, to the end of time, and anywhere in between as casually as a human being can roll their eyes left or right. This also means their reaction time is faster than instantaneous. They can dodge an attack that already has been struck, and they can strike someone even before they launched an attack. And they can do all of this via sheer speed.
  • Now let's look back at Superman:
    • He needed Flash's Cosmic Treadmill to do this.
    • Cannot time travel freestyle with pinpoint accuracy, attributing this with the timeline being corrupted. I don't think the timeline is corrupted in such a way that points in time change at Immeasurable speed so that Immeasurable speed time travelers don't know where they are. It makes infinitely more sense if Superman relies on Time Travel as an ability to time travel, rather than Immeasurable speed. He still uses "raw speed," just FTL speeds or so.
    • Superman says time travel with raw speed is risky and unpredictable. This would not be the case if he had Immeasurable speed while time travelling, because that would mean he would have infinite reactions to each point in time in which he sets foot on; Each one at a time. The fact that he blames time travel for being ricky means he lacks the speed to make it predictable. He expects the results of time travel handed to him w/o needing to react to the process at Immeasurable speed.

Look at what happened in Flashpoint. Time Travel is risky because one wrong move can alter the timeline. Nothing to do with Speed

 

[Eficiente]

He isn’t misinforming anyone because he said he can’t do it with pinpoint accuracy implying he doesn’t even know when he’ll end up whereas when the timeline is normal he says time travel is risky implying that he doesn’t know what the effects of him time traveling would be and those are entirely different things

Risky and unpredictable, in line with the lack of pinpoint accuracy he mentioned before.

You imply he's saying that something similar to Flashpoint would happen if he time travels, but that happened due the Speed Force changing causality around areas Flash didn't even travel to, creating changes unrelated to the things Flash changed. If Superman time travels, he just time travels. Nothing's going to change beyond things taking its own course beyond what Superman sees. Same as with a time machine. But if he meant "risky and unpredictable" as in, he lacks pinpoint accuracy, then that makes perfect sense.

 

[Rgerdeena]

That is assuming that is what he meant; The timeline is not just altered once, but constantly changing & being altered (Which is a bigger assumption). And that this constant change in the timeline happens at Immeasurable speed (Which is a far, far bigger assumption).

He didn’t say it was altered he said it was corrupted corrupted doesn’t mean that it was changed it means that it was messed up if something starts going bad it will continue to get worse therefore there is no reason to assume the timeline wouldn’t still be changing

I explain my point better later on the comment, why cover that part alone.

Why include it if it’s irrelevant and I didn’t only cover it I covered the other stuff you said

I said more things than that.

Yes and I have replied to pretty much all the other stuff you have said and also none of the other stuff you said weakens the counterpoints against those points

level of science to back up its logic to a small degree. This is why we see so many speed-based Time Travel, because going faster than light warps time. As to how that justifies characters in fiction knowing where they're going? Well, it doesn't. They just know it. That's just something they can do."

I already debunked that

Is someone time travelling via FTL speed not doing so via "raw speed"? No, they are using speed. We can't reject that nuance.

I never said time traveling via FTL speed wouldn’t be time traveling via raw speed I said that he clearly isn’t time traveling by merely going FTL because he goes FTL all the time without time traveling

 

[Rex_Eckles]

If Superman time travels, he just time travels.

Does that still happen in recent comics?

 

[Rgerdeena]

Risky and unpredictable, in line with the lack of pinpoint accuracy he mentioned before.

Those are very different statements about limitations of time travel with very different meanings and in different circumstances so don’t try to make them overlap

You imply he's saying that something similar to Flashpoint would happen if he time travels, but that happened due the Speed Force changing causality around areas Flash didn't even travel to, creating changes unrelated to the things Flash changed. If Superman time travels, he just time travels. Nothing's going to change beyond things taking its own course beyond what Superman sees. Same as with a time machine. But if he meant "risky and unpredictable" as in, he lacks pinpoint accuracy, then that makes perfect sense.

Flashpoint didn’t happen because the speedforce changed things on it’s own it happened because flash changed things and that led to unintended butterfly effects and Superman time traveling would absolutely change things you can’t time travel without Changing things even if he just time traveled and stood there for a second it would still move the air and cause a slightly different future and he would likely do more than stand there for a second

 

[Rgerdeena]

Does that still happen in recent comics?

No, eficiente said that because that’s how he thinks it should work not how dc treats it

 

[Eficiente]

@Lloydblitzed I went over both of those things above.

He didn’t say it was altered he said it was corrupted corrupted doesn’t mean that it was changed it means that it was messed up if something starts going bad it will continue to get worse therefore there is no reason to assume the timeline wouldn’t still be changing

Corrupted could mean anything. That's a poor reason to justify the higher interpretation.

Why include it if it’s irrelevant and I didn’t only cover it I covered the other stuff you said

Let's approach this with patience and tolerance, okey? It's a complex topic, I covered the same topic from 2 different angles to explain it better, and the first time I wasn't finished. That's something often done. I called you out for it because it was weird to quote that small part by itself, it was as if you wanted to kick down a part that you could easily prove wrong.

Yes and I have replied to pretty much all the other stuff you have said and also none of the other stuff you said weakens the counterpoints against those points

You took it too literal. I didn't mean to say, "Reply to my other stuff." I meant to say "You misunderstood what I was saying. When saying that enough speed to time travel doesn't automatically mean someone knows when to go, this doesn't mean they would always need Inmeasurable reactions to know. But that they can know where they go even if that doesn't make sense by real world logic, simply because that is how their time travel works."

I never said time traveling via FTL speed wouldn’t be time traveling via raw speed I said that he clearly isn’t time traveling by merely going FTL because he goes FTL all the time without time traveling

I knew what you said in that comment. I had to cover the angle of you thinking that just in case.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Corrupted could mean anything. That's a poor reason to justify the higher interpretation.

Yes it could mean anything which means we shouldn’t default to the lower interpretation especially when Superman saying that it being corrupted means he can’t time travel with pinpoint accuracy suggests the higher interpretation

Let's approach this with patience and tolerance, okey? It's a complex topic, I covered the same topic from 2 different angles to explain it better, and the first time I wasn't finished. That's something often done. I called you out for it because it was weird to quote that small part by itself, it was as if you wanted to kick down a part that you could easily prove wrong.

That part was irrelevant and the rest of your argument would have been fine without it it’s almost like you wanted to make your argument look better that it is by making it longer and I’ve quoted nearly everything you said so don’t act like I’m targeting stuff that I can easily debunk

That doesn't matter because he doesn't go faster than light while trying to time travel all the time. It's not a binary on whether or not the character has FTL feats or not, the intentionality of their moves matters to determine what special things activate due to them.

It is far more likely that he can travel at immeasurable speed then it is that whether or not he wants to time travel determines whether or not him going FTL makes him time travel

You took it too literal. I didn't mean to say, "Reply to my other stuff." I meant to say "You misunderstood what I was saying. When saying that enough speed to time travel doesn't automatically mean someone knows when to go, this doesn't mean they would always need Inmeasurable reactions to know. But that they can know where they go even if that doesn't make sense by real world logic, simply because that is how their time travel works."

First of all you said you said other stuff so I replied that I replied to your other stuff and second of all I never said him knowing when to go is why he has immeasurable speed

 

[Eficiente]

Those are very different statements about limitations of time travel with very different meanings and in different circumstances so don’t try to make them overlap

If that's where we're at, I'm content with agreeing to disagree and leave it at that.

Flashpoint didn’t happen because the speedforce changed things on it’s own it happened because flash changed things and that led to unintended butterfly effects and Superman time traveling would absolutely change things you can’t time travel without Changing things even if he just time traveled and stood there for a second it would still move the air and cause a slightly different future and he would likely do more than stand there for a second

That's not what the butterfly effect refers to. The butterfly effect refers to cause and consequence over a long amount of time creating big changes in a logical manner. Choosing path B rather than path A, and then a meteor falls on the world is not part of the butterfly effect. Any change that has nothing to do with Barry's actions in a logical manner are special manipulations on the timeline done by his powers. Or Causality Manipulation, to be accurate.

As to why I said the Speed Force did it, I got this quote:

• "Do you remember? You found me. And in that instant, you pulled the entire Speed Force into you to stop me. To stop me from killing your mother. You were like a bullet through a windshield. You shattered history. The lives of the people closest to you were put on a broken path. You changed time like an amateur!This is your fault, Barry. This hell is your creation. You traded the life of your mother for the rest of the world!" - Flashpoint (2011) #5

 

[Rgerdeena]

If that's where we're at, I'm content with agreeing to disagree and leave it at that.

Eh fine because that’s not really the most relevant thing

That's not what the butterfly effect refers to. The butterfly effect refers to cause and consequence over a long amount of time creating big changes in a logical manner. Choosing path B rather than path A, and then a meteor falls on the world is not part of the butterfly effect. Any change that has nothing to do with Barry's actions in a logical manner are special manipulations on the timeline done by his powers. Or Causality Manipulation, to be accurate.

I know what the butterfly effect is and what I’m saying is that the stuff flash did led to changes that led to other changes that eventually led to big changes that flash didn’t know would happen because things that might seem completely unrelated to his actions aren’t completely unrelated to his actions

As to why I said the Speed Force did it, I got this quote:

• "Do you remember? You found me. And in that instant, you pulled the entire Speed Force into you to stop me. To stop me from killing your mother. You were like a bullet through a windshield. You shattered history. The lives of the people closest to you were put on a broken path. You changed time like an amateur!This is your fault, Barry. This hell is your creation. You traded the life of your mother for the rest of the world!" - Flashpoint (2011) #5

None of that says the speedforce altered stuff completely unrelated to flash’s actions all it says is that he used the entire speed force to do something that he shouldn’t have and ruined the world which greatly implies that him saving his mother led to a butterfly effect that ruined everything

 

[Eficiente]

No, eficiente said that because that’s how he thinks it should work not how dc treats it

That's not what he asked.

Yes it could mean anything which means we shouldn’t default to the lower interpretation especially when Superman saying that it being corrupted means he can’t time travel with pinpoint accuracy suggests the higher interpretation

It is far more likely that he can travel at immeasurable speed then it is that whether or not he wants to time travel determines whether or not him going FTL makes him time travel

I know what the butterfly effect is and what I’m saying is that the stuff flash did led to changes that led to other changes that eventually led to big changes that flash didn’t know would happen because things that might seem completely unrelated to his actions aren’t completely unrelated to his actions

None of that says the speedforce altered stuff completely unrelated to flash’s actions all it says is that he used the entire speed force to do something that he shouldn’t have and ruined the world which greatly implies that him saving his mother led to a butterfly effect that ruined everything

Here as well, I'm content with agreeing to disagree and leave it at that.

I will say: Again, that not a butterfly effect. Don't call it that when it isn't.

That part was irrelevant and the rest of your argument would have been fine without it it’s almost like you wanted to make your argument look better that it is by making it longer and I’ve quoted nearly everything you said so don’t act like I’m targeting stuff that I can easily debunk

I'm speechless at these conclusions you reached. Ig I'm just not allowed to cover a complex topic from different angles with an extra sentence, to emphasise my point and avoid alternative, unintended interpretations, not even in a thread where there has been confusion, or else I'm making my argument longer to make it look better in a inappropriate way.

Respectfully, I propose the following: What if you're getting irritated over nothing, and you had to back up what I said being wrong in some way bc that's the claim you made before?

A debate can be won w/o debunking every point along the way, let alone showing that the other guy debating is fundamentally wrong at everything.

First of all you said you said other stuff so I replied that I replied to your other stuff and second of all I never said him knowing when to go is why he has immeasurable speed

Ok.

 

[Rgerdeena]

That's not what he asked.

I think there’s some confusion there because he quoted that you said if superman time travels he just time travels and asked is that what still happens in recent comics and I said that dc does not treat it like it’s that simple and you’re the one that said it is that simple(that wasn’t my exact wording but that’s what I meant)

Here as well, I'm content with agreeing to disagree and leave it at that.

Can’t argue with that so I guess it’s up to the staff who’s right

I'm speechless at these conclusions you reached. Ig I'm just not allowed to cover a complex topic from different angles with an extra sentence, to emphasise my point and avoid alternative, unintended interpretations, not even in a thread where there has been confusion, or else I'm making my argument longer to make it look better in a inappropriate way.

Respectfully, I propose the following: What if you're getting irritated over nothing, and you had to back up what I said being wrong in some way bc that's the claim you made before?

A debate can be won w/o debunking every point along the way, let alone showing that the other guy debating is fundamentally wrong at everything.

Let’s just drop that because that is literally the most irrelevant thing to the whole debate and we have agreed to disagree over stuff that’s more relevant and we are both focusing on it way too much and are just going to look more and more petty if we continue out the flaws in the other’s argument over something that has nearly nothing to do with any of the Superman additions

 

[Osemere]

Also, with Superman’s Legion history being restored recently by Waid and Williamson, his stories of traveling through the time barrier to hop between present and future should be canon (and we accept pre-crisis Superman having Immeasurable reactions due to a LOSH story which is now canon in current continuity). Just another thing to put in his justification if accepted.

 

[AyOgUyS]

time travel does not allow time travel

:0

 

[Rgerdeena]

:0

Time travel does not allow time travel, time travel is time travel, an action can’t allow itself

 

[Hayato5652]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Eficiente seems to make sense here.

 

[Eficiente]

While not formally proposed, this thread proposes the idea of any DC Time Travel user on DC (who doesn't do that safely via a time machine) has Causality Manipulation, leading to similar disasters like in Flashpoint. It's argued that Flashpoint wasn't due to the powers of the Speed Force, but the time travel done by Flash.

In other words, Superman would also have Causality Manipulation on its Time Travel, hence he doesn't like using that power.

I argued against this (I believe Flashpoint was just bc of the Speed Force's powers, and believe Superman meant to say he doesn't know at which point in time he's ending up when he time travels). But if people were to disagree with this, Superman's profile should have Causality Manipulation based on the other premise.

 

[Rgerdeena]

While not formally proposed, this thread proposes the idea of any DC Time Travel user on DC (who doesn't do that safely via a time machine) has Causality Manipulation, leading to similar disasters like in Flashpoint. It's argued that Flashpoint wasn't due to the powers of the Speed Force, but the time travel done by Flash.

In other words, Superman would also have Causality Manipulation on its Time Travel, hence he doesn't like using that power.

I argued against this (I believe Flashpoint was just bc of the Speed Force's powers, and believe Superman meant to say he doesn't know at which point in time he's ending up when he time travels). But if people were to disagree with this, Superman's profile should have Causality Manipulation based on the other premise.

Personally I’m against it because causality manipulation is the ability to “redirect any cause to any effect, undo anything by inverting the relation cause/effect, or even separate them entirely, making a specific effect impossible to be caused or a specific cause not producing any effect.” And time traveling doesn’t let Superman change the relationship between cause and effect it just allows him to add a cause that shouldn’t be in the timeline which then leads to an effect that shouldn’t be in the timeline