[ACCEPTED] Reality Quest CRT (Post-Training + Post-Dragon's Nest + Season 2 Speed Scaling)

[CatLover313]

Since the Hypersonic Falcon Revolve feat was removed, Booster going down from a 7.7x multiplier to a Possibly 5x multiplier, and some speed feats being removed, this CRT is to change some of Dowan's keys and the Season 2 Speed scaling, which is affected by them.

All the characters will go from Hypersonic/Previous versions to this:

Dowan (Post-Training):

• Combat Speed: At least Subsonic (At least 34.3 m/s; Comparable to Cho Il-Seok who can dodge Blind Spot Strike, a skill that Seong-U So, someone who possesses Superhuman speed couldn't react to), Subsonic in Auto-Mode (58.06 m/s), Possibly Subsonic+ with boosters (171.5 m/s) (Boosters provide a possible 5x speed increase)
• Travel: Superhuman (20.7 m/s) (Faster than Season 1 Soh Sung-Woo) and Possibly Subsonic with Boosters (103.50 m/s)

Dowan (Post-Dragon's Nest):

• Combat Speed: At least Subsonic (58.06 m/s) (Comparable if not faster than his Weaker Auto-mode self who performed this), Possibly Subsonic+ (171.5 m/s) (Faster than Gwang Kim who could fight evenly with post-training Dowan with boosters active), higher with Skills, possibly at least Subsonic+ (290.3 m/s) up to Supersonic+ (857.5 m/s) with Boosters
• Travel: Superhuman (20.7 m/s) (Faster than Season 1 Soh Sung-Woo) and Possibly Subsonic with Boosters (103.50 m/s)

Season 2 (Dowan):

• Combat Speed: At least Subsonic (166 m/s), possibly Subsonic+ (171.5 m/s) (Far faster than his previous key), likely far higher with skills, possibly Supersonic (830 m/s) up to Supersonic+ (857.5 m/s) with Boosters
• Travel: Superhuman (20.7 m/s) (Scales way above Season 1 Soh Sung-Woo) and Possibly Subsonic with Boosters (103.50 m/s)

Dae Bujin:

• Combat Speed: At least Subsonic (166 m/s) (Fought evenly with Dowan using skills), possibly Supersonic (830 m/s) up to Supersonic+ (857.5 m/s) (Easily caught Season 2 Dowan with boosters for a moment)
• Travel: Superhuman (20.7 m/s) (Scales way above Season 1 Soh Sung-Woo), Likely Higher

Gong Cheol:

• Combat Speed: At least Subsonic (166 m/s) (Caught and overwhelmed Season 2 Dowan using his skills), possibly Supersonic (830 m/s) up to Supersonic+ (857.5 m/s) (Comparable to Dae Bujin)
• Travel: Superhuman (20.7 m/s) (Scales way above Season 1 Soh Sung-Woo), Likely Higher

XXX:

• Combat Speed: At least Subsonic (166 m/s) (Comparable to Gong Cheol), possibly Supersonic (830 m/s) up to Supersonic+ (857.5 m/s) (Comparable to Gong Cheol and Dae Bujin, Dae Bujin stated that Dowan beat XXX only because he let himself get hit)
• Travel: Superhuman (20.7 m/s) (Scales way above Season 1 Soh Sung-Woo), Likely Higher

Agreements: Mercury009, DeltaStriker22, Celestial_Pegasus (Staff), KingTempest (Staff)

Disagreements:

 

[Mercury009]

I agree on the speed changes, although the multiplier from charge shot is really iffy. I recall people requiring actual statements for those type of things being accepted.

Because assuming this number, Dowan max charge shot would be way higher than his current tier (he did a 250 something MJ base attack, a charge 3 would be skipping over to a new tier or 2). And the max charges is 10 if I recall correctly

 

[Hayder0772]

I agree on the speed

but iffy about the charge shot FRA

Also can i suggest that we or someone else make a Great body dowan key it seems needed

 

[DeltaStriker22]

Is charge shot multiplier gonna be listed as:
Base AP, higher with Level 1-2, 2.941x with Level 3, higher with Level 4-6, far higher with Max Level

If so I'm fine with it.

 

[Pxnd_013]

44.15 m/s should not be used, because the speed difference between Dowan and Jihan should not be that large, as they are able to fight each other

XXX should have a speed similar to Dae Bujin and Gong Cheol

 

[Mercury009]

XXX only has relative speed post blood amp, definitely not in base

 

[Pxnd_013]

As for the Charge Shot, I disagree. This is because the multiplier is clearly stated as follows :
"Multipliers come from direct statements instead of being reasoned from something else"

Moreover, the statement must also be credible. Therefore, I do not think it should be considered valid

 

[Pxnd_013]

XXX only has relative speed post blood amp, definitely not in base

Hmm, if it is base xxx, it would likely be the case

 

[CatLover313]

Is charge shot multiplier gonna be listed as:
Base AP, higher with Level 1-2, 2.941x with Level 3, higher with Level 4-6, far higher with Max Level

If so I'm fine with it.

That’s what I was thinking, though it seems like others have issues with it being an official multiplier so it likely won’t stick. Thought it’d be fine because we had two calculations that allowed us to infer the power gap of the skill but if it requires a direct statement, it can be dropped from an official multiplier.

 

[CatLover313]

44.15 m/s should not be used, because the speed difference between Dowan and Jihan should not be that large, as they are able to fight each other

XXX should have a speed similar to Dae Bujin and Gong Cheol

Should I change travel speed to 20.7 m/s based off this feat?

 

[CatLover313]

I agree on the speed

but iffy about the charge shot FRA

Also can i suggest that we or someone else make a Great body dowan key it seems needed

For Great Body, I know that there was an indirect statement in the story saying he never felt so quick suggesting he’s faster than his booster self along with the artist statement. Might make a key for him next week or two (I already made two CRTs this week)

44.15 m/s should not be used, because the speed difference between Dowan and Jihan should not be that large, as they are able to fight each other

XXX should have a speed similar to Dae Bujin and Gong Cheol

XXX is very weird as I know the story says he let Dowan hit him but his feats definitely don’t put him near them as it “looked” like he get severely blitzed by Dowan with Boosters

 

[Pxnd_013]

Should I change travel speed to 20.7 m/s based off this feat?

I think it should be like that

 

[Pxnd_013]

That’s what I was thinking, though it seems like others have issues with it being an official multiplier so it likely won’t stick. Thought it’d be fine because we had two calculations that allowed us to infer the power gap of the skill but if it requires a direct statement, it can be dropped from an official multiplier.

Using a multiplier isn't that simple. It shouldn't be used in calculations. Imagine a future scenario where Dowan uses a charge shot but the feat doesn't reach his base feat. It would be a complete contradiction. If you think about it more deeply, you'll quickly realize that it doesn't work

XXX is very weird as I know the story says he let Dowan hit him but his feats definitely don’t put him near them as it “looked” like he get severely blitzed by Dowan with Boosters

I think I believe what Dae Bujin said, and I personally think the former chairman shouldn't have such a big speed difference

 

[CatLover313]

Changed the CRT to be Season 2 speed only, removed the multiplier portion!

 

[Pxnd_013]

Now it is much clearer, but I still have a question for confirmation. The artist stated that the booster can increase the speed by about five times from the “normal” speed. However, in the calculation you mentioned, it was Dowan using the skill Falcon Revolve. Therefore, should this really be counted as his “normal” speed, given that Falcon Revolve itself can enhance dowan’s speed?

 

[CatLover313]

Now it is much clearer, but I still have a question for confirmation. The artist stated that the booster can increase the speed by about five times from the “normal” speed. However, in the calculation you mentioned, it was Dowan using the skill Falcon Revolve. Therefore, should this really be counted as his “normal” speed, given that Falcon Revolve itself can enhance dowan’s speed?

I was just using scaling logic we had last time as it was Season 1 Dowan that used Falcon Revolve and got that speed and Dowan Season 2 would scale above that. I won’t lie, not much logic to it but seen other verses scale that way. If it’s too much of a problem with everyone, I can change it to the other one with the AM boulder feat (327 m/s) as that is much easier to prove with direct statements.

 

[Pxnd_013]

I was just using scaling logic we had last time as it was Season 1 Dowan that used Falcon Revolve and got that speed and Dowan Season 2 would scale above that. I won’t lie, not much logic to it but seen other verses scale that way. If it’s too much of a problem with everyone, I can change it to the other one with the AM boulder feat (327 m/s) as that is much easier to prove with direct statements.

It is rather ambiguous. Although Base Dowan SS2 is significantly faster than Base Dowan SS1, there is no guarantee that Base Dowan SS2 is faster than Dowan using Falcon Revolve in SS1. Therefore, I will remain neutral on this matter.

As for the 327 m/s value, it cannot be used because the speed of Dowan and Auto-Mode Dowan is relatively similar. Furthermore, if I recall correctly, evasive movements achieved simply by leaning the body backward cannot be used for calculations, since a defender with speed equal to the attacker can already dodge in that manner

 

[CatLover313]

It is rather ambiguous. Although Base Dowan SS2 is significantly faster than Base Dowan SS1, there is no guarantee that Base Dowan SS2 is faster than Dowan using Falcon Revolve in SS1. Therefore, I will remain neutral on this matter.

As for the 327 m/s value, it cannot be used because the speed of Dowan and Auto-Mode Dowan is relatively similar. Furthermore, if I recall correctly, evasive movements achieved simply by leaning the body backward cannot be used for calculations, since a defender with speed equal to the attacker can already dodge in that manner

I’ll stick with what’s on there for now then.

For the second part, the assumption made in the calculation was since Base Dowan is injured and AM Dowan is still fully healthy due to the benefits of Auto Mode, along with the boulder being thrown a projectile and not a punch itself, the speed of a low-end boulder throw could be used and the CGM approved of it. The assumption was also made and approved that the dodged would be seen as a duck as the CGM also agreed that the backwards leaning would cancel it out so assuming a ducking motion was acceptable to them.

 

[Pxnd_013]

I’ll stick with what’s on there for now then.

For the second part, the assumption made in the calculation was since Base Dowan is injured and AM Dowan is still fully healthy due to the benefits of Auto Mode, along with the boulder being thrown a projectile and not a punch itself, the speed of a low-end boulder throw could be used and the CGM approved of it. The assumption was also made and approved that the dodged would be seen as a duck as the CGM also agreed that the backwards leaning would cancel it out so assuming a ducking motion was acceptable to them.

Hmm, I do not quite understand the part about the ducking motion, but the fact that their speeds are similar remains unchanged. If you read the full context, you can see that Dowan is still able to react to Auto Mode Dowan’s speed. Therefore, the calculation that makes Auto Mode Dowan 24 times faster than Dowan should not be considered valid

 

[CatLover313]

Hmm, I do not quite understand the part about the ducking motion, but the fact that their speeds are similar remains unchanged. If you read the full context, you can see that Dowan is still able to react to Auto Mode Dowan’s speed. Therefore, the calculation that makes Auto Mode Dowan 24 times faster than Dowan should not be considered valid

Well one more correction is that the calculation is actually assuming AM Dowan is 24x faster than the rock thrown by an injured Dowan. Their combat speeds might’ve widen a little bit but the throwing speed was definitely affected even worse for Dowan. As at the time, Dowan was injured enough to struggle lifting and throwing the boulder showing the vast differences in a Healthy AM Dowan and the speed of a Thrown Boulder by an Injured Dowan. As even right after, AM Dowan throws an even bigger boulder nearly 10x bigger with no effort showing the difference in throwing speeds and strength at their current state of health. Thats the assumption I was kind of mostly going for with the calculation. If that’s too much of an assumption to believe, then ig another CGM could comment on the matter in another thread or blog? I could see finding a good speed for the boulder as an issue more than anything tbh

 

[Pxnd_013]

Well one more correction is that the calculation is actually assuming AM Dowan is 24x faster than the rock thrown by an injured Dowan. Their combat speeds might’ve widen a little bit but the throwing speed was definitely affected even worse for Dowan. As at the time, Dowan was injured enough to struggle lifting and throwing the boulder showing the vast differences in a Healthy AM Dowan and the speed of a Thrown Boulder by an Injured Dowan. As even right after, AM Dowan throws an even bigger boulder nearly 10x bigger with no effort showing the difference in throwing speeds and strength at their current state of health. Thats the assumption I was kind of mostly going for with the calculation. If that’s too much of an assumption to believe, then ig another CGM could comment on the matter in another thread or blog? I could see finding a good speed for the boulder as an issue more than anything tbh

If you look at what I sent, you will see that the injured Dowan was also able to dodge Auto Mode Dowan’s boulder throw at close range. Auto Mode Dowan is indeed faster than Dowan, but there is no way he is over 24 times faster. That level of disparity would be far too great

 

[Mercury009]

Sorry, where is this x24 taken from? S1 Dowan in base is already transonic as well from the weapon mastery feat. They are relatively equal with AM having a slight advantage due to Tower enhancement.

 

[Pxnd_013]

Sorry, where is this x24 taken from? S1 Dowan in base is already transonic as well from the weapon mastery feat. They are relatively equal with AM having a slight advantage due to Tower enhancement.

It comes from a calculation of 327 m/s which makes the auto mode dowan 24 times faster than dowan, which I'm too lazy to explain, check it out here.

 

[Mercury009]

It comes from a calculation of 327 m/s which makes the auto mode dowan 24 times faster than dowan, which I'm too lazy to explain, check it out here.

I still dont get it at all.
1. Dowan was injured with a broken bone (arm specifically).
2. The dodge was not something that derived from his body but throwing a boulder at the enemy, meaning it would be slower than its usual self regardless.

Both factors indicate that the dodge only involve the throwing action, not the combat itself

 

[Mercury009]

Your statement would be valid if Automode dodged a point blank punch of Dowan himself, which would fall under the Evading punches rule. That feat doesn't break any.

 

[Pxnd_013]

I still dont get it at all.
1. Dowan was injured with a broken bone (arm specifically).
2. The dodge was not something that derived from his body but throwing a boulder at the enemy, meaning it would be slower than its usual self regardless.

Both factors indicate that the dodge only involve the throwing action, not the combat itself

1.Even if his arm was broken, his speed should only be reduced by about half. And normally, a throw is faster than a punch or a kick. So even with his speed halved, the throwing speed would still be close to the speed of a punch or kick. As shown in the image I sent, Auto Mode Dowan could not dodge Dowan’s kick

2.As I mentioned, throwing an object is generally faster than punching or kicking. You can check this in the References for Common Feats

Your statement would be valid if Automode dodged a point blank punch of Dowan himself, which would fall under the Evading punches rule. That feat doesn't break any.

It is not limited to merely dodging punches. If you read the section that the CGM stated in the CGD, you will see this clarified.

 

[Mercury009]

Do you have a source on the broken arm speed reduction?

Edit: Just re-read the chapter too. The throwing motion was done from the ground up with both arms, not even a "regular" throw at all.

 

[Pxnd_013]

I may be confused, but based on what I have found, it is stated that the speed reduction could be around 50–100%. Since Dowan is still able to lift the boulder with his broken arm, the reduction would likely fall within the range of roughly 50–70%

Would that not cause the throwing speed to increase, given that the boulder is large and Dowan is injured? Performing a normal throwing motion would require him to exert more strength to lift it compared to the throwing method shown in the story

 

[Mercury009]

Still up to debate imo, those numbers are taken from AI without an actually reliable source.

> On the projectile dodging feats, or some similar page, there should be a note that it is banned to calculate the evasion of attacks between two evenly matched characters, as they are inherently contradictory to the fight surrounding it if taken at face value, and are just a trope used to exaggerate the extreme narrowness by which characters dodge attacks. It is fine if one character is clearly far superior to another and expressly allows an attack to get that close to their face before actually evading due to the sheer gap between them, or perhaps for static projectiles/techniques that they clearly outspeed such as a bullet.

The thread you also pointed to doesn't specifically state characters who were previously equal and one gains the obvious upper hand. Which was the entire point of the last floor of the Tower. The dude needed at least 30 something (memory is iffy but the numbers of potions shown are around there, there could be more since we only saw him drink a couple) healing potions to put down Auto mode for good, and by the end he was still not winning by a landslide

 

[CatLover313]

I may be confused, but based on what I have found, it is stated that the speed reduction could be around 50–100%. Since Dowan is still able to lift the boulder with his broken arm, the reduction would likely fall within the range of roughly 50–70%

Would that not cause the throwing speed to increase, given that the boulder is large and Dowan is injured? Performing a normal throwing motion would require him to exert more strength to lift it compared to the throwing method shown in the story

The throwing speed would logically decrease due to the boulder being large and Dowan being injured. Especially since we do see Dowan struggling to even lift up something way smaller than what AM Dowan then throws later on. Also, I believe the common reference page only has throwing speeds for knives and not exactly boulders which would logically be way smaller speeds. Looking at all the common evading rules and threads, I made sure that the assumptions of the calculation passed or were niche enough to have some leeway to them as there really is nothing talking about when two previously equal characters fighting, one of them is slightly stronger with no stamina drain and painless, the other one getting injured as the fight goes on (losing strength, speed, and stamina), and using the throwing speed not combat speed of said injured character (Also in the same fight, said stronger character throws an way bigger object more effortlessly). This is VERY niche, I’ll admit, which is why I tried to point it all out on the calculation.

However, I think this is kind of derailing especially since we don’t seem to have issues anymore with the original premise. It might be best to bring it up to another CGM with both sides and see their evaluation on the calculation.

 

[Pxnd_013]

It seems reasonable. I don’t think I can provide any additional arguments, as I do not have much expertise on the matter. Therefore, I will remain neutral on these points and wait for further input from the staff

 

[Pettam33]

Just throwing my two cents in, but I don’t think this specific multiplier fits the context of the fight. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe this multiplier is derived from Dowan destroying the dumpster. After that strike, Dowan goes on to deal equal or even greater damage to XXX than with the Charge Shot. From what I can tell, the Charge Shot skill scales proportionally with the force Dowan chooses to apply.

For example, if Dowan = 1, then Charge Shot level 3 = 2.941. But during the fight, Dowan clearly wasn’t using his full strength for that attack. If Dowan = 5, the value would be around 16 or so... You all get the idea.

Truthfully, I think Charge Shot should be evaluated independently, with set multipliers applied per level instead. If more information comes out, we can adjust the scale to reflect the actual force behind the strike. However, I don't think we should simply leave it alone either as it will be an issue when needing to scale the verse (If that point comes again.)

 

[Viott]

Supersonic and the 261.74 MJ calculation should be used in Dowan’s profile.

 

[Mercury009]

I think it would be best to wait for a couple of chapters and then create an alternative key for Dowan with the great body.

Supersonic feat is kinda iffy not gonna lie, it was done by a full stats Dowan and not a 75% (ish) stats + Great Body. We do know that narratively GB is a big deal, but people could argue that he was still stronger at that point in the story

 

[CatLover313]

Supersonic and the 261.74 MJ calculation should be used in Dowan’s profile.

Going to save that for a Great Body Key as the GB also has some potential speed upgrades too. Feel like this next chapter has some potential upscales to for other characters

 

[CatLover313]

Just throwing my two cents in, but I don’t think this specific multiplier fits the context of the fight. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe this multiplier is derived from Dowan destroying the dumpster. After that strike, Dowan goes on to deal equal or even greater damage to XXX than with the Charge Shot. From what I can tell, the Charge Shot skill scales proportionally with the force Dowan chooses to apply.

For example, if Dowan = 1, then Charge Shot level 3 = 2.941. But during the fight, Dowan clearly wasn’t using his full strength for that attack. If Dowan = 5, the value would be around 16 or so... You all get the idea.

Truthfully, I think Charge Shot should be evaluated independently, with set multipliers applied per level instead. If more information comes out, we can adjust the scale to reflect the actual force behind the strike. However, I don't think we should simply leave it alone either as it will be an issue when needing to scale the verse (If that point comes again.)

It might be hard to get it as an official multiplier as I didn’t realize a statement was needed. However, I’ve seen arguments used for multipliers (through accepted calculations) in versus matches and be accepted so it’ll likely be treated as a “Non-Official but reasonable multiplier”

 

[Pettam33]

It might be hard to get it as an official multiplier as I didn’t realize a statement was needed. However, I’ve seen arguments used for multipliers (through accepted calculations) in versus matches and be accepted so it’ll likely be treated as a “Non-Official but reasonable multiplier”

Yeah, I’m gonna have to go with you on this one. Getting it recognized as an official multiplier like you said is probably going to be a stretch without a direct statement from the author himself, but since you've said that solid calcs have and can be used, and accepted in versus debates before we should be ok if the time comes. Atp, I just really hope it won't get brushed off again. Also, speaking of getting Charge shot accepted, would we have to create a blog or CRT to begin the process?

 

[CatLover313]

Yeah, I’m gonna have to go with you on this one. Getting it recognized as an official multiplier like you said is probably going to be a stretch without a direct statement from the author himself, but since you've said that solid calcs have and can be used, and accepted in versus debates before we should be ok if the time comes. Atp, I just really hope it won't get brushed off again. Also, speaking of getting Charge shot accepted, would we have to create a blog or CRT to begin the process?

Honestly, not sure.

 

[Mercury009]

Yeah, I’m gonna have to go with you on this one. Getting it recognized as an official multiplier like you said is probably going to be a stretch without a direct statement from the author himself, but since you've said that solid calcs have and can be used, and accepted in versus debates before we should be ok if the time comes. Atp, I just really hope it won't get brushed off again. Also, speaking of getting Charge shot accepted, would we have to create a blog or CRT to begin the process?

Multipliers can still be disregarded if they are not consistent enough with the series (i.e. JJK Black Flash multiplier)

 

[Pettam33]

Multipliers can still be disregarded if they are not consistent enough with the series (i.e. JJK Black Flash multiplier)

Yup, and Reality quest is hanging by a VERY thin thread.