Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

[TheStinkeer]

I don't trust Ian's take on powerscaling ever LMAO. After that bit about Sonic being weaker than Kid Goku, you bet your a-hole that I'm not taking him seriously cuz he's probably either trolling (likely)

He's 100% trolling, the official account posted this and even though it's managed by someone else, I find it hard to imagine that Ian didn't tell them that he was trolling

Archie Sonic ingeneral on this site is walking a very thin line and honestly I think Game is both stronger and superior in writing in pretty much every way possible

I mean tbf, Game Sonic is walking a thin line as well. For example stuff like Solaris is a mess of what Solaris is actually doing and Time Eater feats could get screwed over in later games

But yeah Game Sonic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Archie Sonic, we should give all of Archie Sonic's feats to Game Sonic because Archie Sonic doesn't deserve them bc he can't handle being homeless unlike Game Sonic who is the CEO of being broke and homeless. /hj

(Also there was that whole thing Archie Sonic did to Tails where my goat Game Sonic would never do that )

 

[TMaakkonen]

Game Sonic probably has more valid base Uni scaling than Archie Sonic :V

 

[TheStinkeer]

Game Sonic probably has more valid base Uni scaling than Archie Sonic :V

I mean rn his base Uni scaling comes from if the Chaos Emeralds actually made Perfect Chaos and Super Sonic Uni in AP and dura, if base Erazor Djinn actually gained enough power to be near universal, and Eggman's whole "this one is truly my ultimate weapon!" and most notably Infinite. Maybe a couple others but eh

Each has their own set of problems to solve and Infinite could be screwed over later, especially seeing current Sonic media's love of referencing stuff

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

Ultra Sonic was always buns af Archie Sonic ingeneral on this site is walking a very thin line and honestly I think Game is both stronger and superior in writing in pretty much every way possible

He's 100% trolling, the official account posted this and even though it's managed by someone else, I find it hard to imagine that Ian didn't tell them that he was trolling

I mean tbf, Game Sonic is walking a thin line as well. For example stuff like Solaris is a mess of what Solaris is actually doing and Time Eater feats could get screwed over in later games

But yeah Game Sonic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Archie Sonic, we should give all of Archie Sonic's feats to Game Sonic because Archie Sonic doesn't deserve them bc he can't handle being homeless unlike Game Sonic who is the CEO of being broke and homeless. /hj

(Also there was that whole thing Archie Sonic did to Tails where my goat Game Sonic would never do that )

Yeah, I'm tired of people pretending Archie is allat. Especially tired of people saying that "Frontiers Sonic now has a chance against Archie Sonic" with a weak argument of spectacle over substance that isn't really rooted in anything (on both ends). Like, their argument for Frontiers Sonic doesn't mean anything cuz its built off of hype and their argument for Archie Sonic doesn't mean anything either because it's built off of ignorance. Pick a struggle. Please.

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

I mean rn his base Uni scaling comes from if the Chaos Emeralds actually made Perfect Chaos and Super Sonic Uni in AP and dura, if base Erazor Djinn actually gained enough power to be near universal, and Eggman's whole "this one is truly my ultimate weapon!" and most notably Infinite. Maybe a couple others but eh

Each has their own set of problems to solve and Infinite could be screwed over later, especially seeing current Sonic media's love of referencing stuff

Doesn't just come from that. Also comes from the Paradox Prism scaling. Also, the Uni-feats seem to be just fine as they are. I don't see an issue with them. Regardless, each one is supporting evidence for Uni tier. If it walks like a duck, quakes like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's probably Uni-tier.

Also, pretty sure there are threads about this that you can refer to that can actually explain it.

 

[TheStinkeer]

Also comes from the Paradox Prism scaling

I'm ngl I keep forgetting Prime is supposed to be canon

That being said I also know of the World Rings scaling which I find much more convincing bc Prime is Prime, tho that depends on if the Chaos Emeralds should be close to them. The only thing that needs to be proved is that the Arabian Nights 100% aren't 11-A or anything like that, plus the whole "shrinking" thing the codex blog talked about

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Let's crush base Archie Sonic by making Main Continuity bases Tier 1 once and for all!!!

 

[TheStinkeer]

Also, the Uni-feats seem to be just fine as they are

Also, there's the Infinite sun anti-feat which doesn't help

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

Also, there's the Infinite sun anti-feat which doesn't help

That's not an anti-feat at all lmao. What are these reddit takes, man? You seem to always do this, ngl. Just because an attack LOOKS like a stellar object, doesn't mean that's its AP. Even if it WERE an anti-feat, it wouldn't be nearly substantial enough to debunk literally any of the supporting evidence.

I'm ngl I keep forgetting Prime is supposed to be canon

That being said I also know of the World Rings scaling which I find much more convincing bc Prime is Prime, tho that depends on if the Chaos Emeralds should be close to them. The only thing that needs to be proved is that the Arabian Nights 100% aren't 11-A or anything like that, plus the whole "shrinking" thing the codex blog talked about

The Chaos Emeralds aren't involved in the Paradox Prism scaling. It revolves around the aftermath of the Paradox Prism's first usages.

Also, why would the Arabian Nights be 11-A?? If dreams themselves were to have some high scaling in Shuffle, literally how is a story in a magical book that sucked Sonic into it much different? This hinges on ignoring the fact that not only does Erazor Djinn literally state that he would become a threat to Sonic own world, but imposes a tier and headcanon that wasn't there before.

 

[MusicRelaxing]

Speaking of Archie Sonic, wouldn't the dimensional upscaling from Game apply to them? Sonic Generations's totality of events, which would include the Hypertimeline shenanigans and such would be there as a byproduct. The entire scene is from Sonic the Hedgehog #230, "Sonic Generations".

In Archie Sonic, its been pretty consistent that the comic itself tells you to "go play the original games" multiple time like SA2 iirc. SA1 was a whole adapted thing there, but I'm sure it had a statement around the end for it.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Post-Genesis is veeeery outdated due to the Sonic Scholars not touching Archie in literal years, and it following the continuity of the games (for the most part) is something not properly documented yet iirc.

That being said, the Hypertimeline thing is something that requires explicit evidence that I think Archie personally lacks because it just handwave away most titles as "they happened trust us".

 

[MusicRelaxing]

Post-Genesis is veeeery outdated due to the Sonic Scholars not touching Archie in literal years, and it following the continuity of the games (for the most part) is something not properly documented yet iirc.

That being said, the Hypertimeline thing is something that requires explicit evidence that I think Archie personally lacks because it just handwave away most titles as "they happened trust us".

Makes sense. Though, wouldn't it at best get a possibly rating? I gotta read through Archie more (a crime in of itself) but I think we can get a case for canonicity in Archie kind of being a nigh-100% replica of what happened, narratively and scaling wise.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Makes sense. Though, wouldn't it at best get a possibly rating?

For many things, like AP or Speed, that would probably be reasonable. The issue is the wiki is a tad strict on that sort of thing when it comes to higher-tiered stuff, so the Hypertimeline being labeled as possibly may come under much more fire because of it essentially just needing to borrow the canonicity of the games.

My personal beliefs are that it could be fine. I just heavily doubt a Hypertimeline being applicable to Archie when it probably has no supporting evidence from the comic itself (I could be wrong on that, I didn't get the chance to read much of Post-Gen).

 

[TheStinkeer]

That's not an anti-feat at all lmao. What are these reddit takes, man? You seem to always do this, ngl. Just because an attack LOOKS like a stellar object, doesn't mean that's its AP. Even if it WERE an anti-feat, it wouldn't be nearly substantial enough to debunk literally any of the supporting evidence.

The thing about the Phantom Ruby is that it makes exact copies of existing things, they are as strong as the real deal. So the Phantom Ruby creating a sun and needing to recharge would be an anti-feat despite creating characters who should have at least star level AP and creating Null Space. Or at least an anti-feat for the prototype as it gave Infinite the power to stomp said characters. I will say the characters dying to it could be due to the heat tho

And yeah I will admit, I do often doubt some stuff I'd like to agree with. I pretty often feel like I miss a really tiny detail that single handedly destroys what I think lmao

Also, why would the Arabian Nights be 11-A?? If dreams themselves were to have some high scaling in Shuffle, literally how is a story in a magical book that sucked Sonic into it much different? This hinges on ignoring the fact that not only does Erazor Djinn literally state that he would become a threat to Sonic own world, but imposes a tier and headcanon that wasn't there before.

tbf dreams in Shuffle were established to still be reality within Maginaryworld iirc. I do also agree that Erazor Djinn was meant to be a threat and I'm pretty sure he would've remade Sonic's world in his image but yk. It also depends on how much Erazor was absorbing cause if he reaped half of the Arabian Nights, would he have reaped half the starry skies as well? I assume this is the case but eh

 

[MusicRelaxing]

For many things, like AP or Speed, that would probably be reasonable. The issue is the wiki is a tad strict on that sort of thing when it comes to higher-tiered stuff, so the Hypertimeline being labeled as possibly may come under much more fire because of it essentially just needing to borrow the canonicity of the games.

My personal beliefs are that it could be fine. I just heavily doubt a Hypertimeline being applicable to Archie when it probably has no supporting evidence from the comic itself (I could be wrong on that, I didn't get the chance to read much of Post-Gen).

Likely, I'd not even get through 20% and I'd wage to say Archie does canon very differently; the "essence" of the games' feats still remain in it (Time Eater gobbling the cosmology is something that'd fly, considering its literally his name and purpose; if some guy made robot "that eradicates the cosmology" I'd think another version of it likely did the same thing) but thinking about it, its probably iffy af icl

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

The thing about the Phantom Ruby is that it makes exact copies of existing things, they are as strong as the real deal. So the Phantom Ruby creating a sun and needing to recharge would be an anti-feat despite creating characters who should have at least star level AP and creating Null Space. Or at least an anti-feat for the prototype as it gave Infinite the power to stomp said characters. I will say the characters dying to it could be due to the heat tho

And yeah I will admit, I do often doubt some stuff I'd like to agree with. I pretty often feel like I miss a really tiny detail that single handedly destroys what I think lmao

That still doesn't constitute as an anti-feat. It wasn't stated to be an exact copy of the sun itself. If it was, it would have burned all life on Earth to a crisp instantly as soon as it was created. It seems more like a Dragon Ball ki attack more than anything. It only LOOKS like a sun. It isn't actually a sun. The Phantom Ruby also creates images that the user wishes, like those monsters with Infinite's mask on them or those cubes. Basing the premise of this argument off of the fact that it CAN copy stuff isn't really valid. This is just an example of causal oversimplication. A being true doesn't mean he did X as B is a very likely scenario as well. B, in this instance of him just creating an attack that looks like the sun without actually being one, is even more likely because nothing proves A is the cause aside from A's own premise.

tbf dreams in Shuffle were established to still be reality within Maginaryworld iirc. I do also agree that Erazor Djinn was meant to be a threat and I'm pretty sure he would've remade Sonic's world in his image but yk. It also depends on how much Erazor was absorbing cause if he reaped half of the Arabian Nights, would he have reaped half the starry skies as well? I assume this is the case but eh

Obviously. And the storybooks seem to be a reality all on their own. I think you're just overthinking this. It isn't that deep.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Phantom Ruby has like... amazing feats and disappointing feats simultaneously. Not to mention the clusterf#%k of statements making it range all over the place.

Phantom Ruby > Master Emerald, anyone? Kek

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Phantom Ruby > Master Emerald, anyone? Kek

Eggman does say he wouldn't need the Master Emerald with the Phantom Ruby, but that's a given since no one except Knuckles can use it's full power.

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

Eggman does say he wouldn't need the Master Emerald with the Phantom Ruby, but that's a given since no one except Knuckles can use it's full power.

Phantom Ruby has like... amazing feats and disappointing feats simultaneously. Not to mention the clusterf#%k of statements making it range all over the place.

Phantom Ruby > Master Emerald, anyone? Kek

Allegedly he's the only one . Tbh, I don't see it as Eggman saying the PR is stronger, just that the power is easier to obtain and has an ease of use.

I think the worse offender of PR scaling is Otherworld tbh. Cuz a modified Phantom Ruby prototype is able to stand at shoulders with a Super Form.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Do nintendolife be usable?? It says the Death Egg would have limitless power from the M.E. I keep seeing the site listed in Sonic Retro.

 

[Fireld]

Deja vu much? Ye

 

[TheStinkeer]

Allegedly he's the only one . Tbh, I don't see it as Eggman saying the PR is stronger, just that the power is easier to obtain and has an ease of use.

I agree with this take, though one can argue that because Eggman didn't even bother to at least keep it in his back pocket in case someone tried to use the Chaos Emeralds, it could imply a little more about the Phantom Ruby's power

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Eggman and his machines already used the Master Emerald's power a lot during the Classic Era. You'd think they would stop trying given the same characters whose the Master Emerald's power has been used against are stronger. The only thing so far that would remain useful from it in combat is it's amplification.

 

[MysticMania]

I don't personally like giving Archie Mainline canon stuff on a default, if that makes sense. Anytime Archie actually adapts a Mainline story (instead of doing a few-page advert), the stories happen very differently, like Unleashed and SA1. With the different casts, world, societies, and power systems, it's extremely unlikely an Archie Sonic Heroes would just happen to play out almost step for step the same as Mainline for example.

 

[Fezzih_007]

If it was, it would have burned all life on Earth to a crisp instantly as soon as it was created

I mean, Sonic games don't usually follow real life physics. If It was supposed to be the Sun, Sonic forces writters just forgot that If the Sun come that close to earth, everyone would die. Which would not be surprising.
But yeah:

It seems more like a Dragon Ball ki attack more than anything. It only LOOKS like a sun. It isn't actually a sun.

I think this is probally what they going for too.

 

[TheStinkeer]

I do believe that said sun was meant to be a sun as everyone was talking about how it would incinerate the cast, but it being stronger than normal is also a likely possibility

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

Eggman and his machines already used the Master Emerald's power a lot during the Classic Era. You'd think they would stop trying given the same characters whose the Master Emerald's power has been used against are stronger. The only thing so far that would remain useful from it in combat is it's amplification.

Well that and it's heavily guarded by some high-profile people. Meanwhile the Phantom Ruby was just right there for the taking.

I mean, Sonic games don't usually follow real life physics. If It was supposed to be the Sun, Sonic forces writters just forgot that If the Sun come that close to earth, everyone would die. Which would not be surprising.

Even if they don't, there is no functionalities of it that work like a real start that isn't just looking like one. It isn't even implied to be a real sun.

I do believe that said sun was meant to be a sun as everyone was talking about how it would incinerate the cast, but it being stronger than normal is also a likely possibility

That doesn't indicate that it would be, either. The Supernova move from Dragon Ball looks like a sun and can incinerate like one, but isn't a sun. An attack with incinerating properties that looks like a sun still isn't enough because lots of energy attacks can do the same. Hell, we saw the Time Eater having a similar thing going on, but it isn't actually a star. Unless you're meant to tell me that Super Sonic(s) in Generations are barely Star level?

 

[TheStinkeer]

That doesn't indicate that it would be, either. The Supernova move from Dragon Ball looks like a sun and can incinerate like one, but isn't a sun. An attack with incinerating properties that looks like a sun still isn't enough because lots of energy attacks can do the same.

It was also directly called a sun in the cutscenes, so like, it kinda has to be a sun of some kind even if it's an amped up sun

Hell, we saw the Time Eater having a similar thing going on, but it isn't actually a star. Unless you're meant to tell me that Super Sonic(s) in Generations are barely Star level?

I actually agree with this tho. It's portrayed as Time Eater's ultimate attack and should def be much stronger than a sun. Especially if TE being able to consume the energy of dimensions is an applicable AP feat

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

It was also directly called a sun in the cutscenes, so like, it kinda has to be a sun of some kind even if it's an amped up sun

It was only really called a sun once or maybe twice. It still doesn't even debunk or make the other blatant uni scaling invalid, either. More evidence than any anti-evidence and the anti-evidence is flimsy and hinges on interpreting it a certain way for it to work. Doesn't hold up in a real debate.

 

[Fezzih_007]

It was only really called a sun once or maybe twice.

3 times actually.

 

[Clockluckdoo]

Greetings, I am new to VSBW. I was uncertain where to begin, so I started with the character I am most familiar with, which is from the Sonic the Hedgehog series.

I would like to express my gratitude for your perseverance, determination, and patience in progressively elevating Sonic characters to higher tiers. They have advanced from being town level in their base form, barely reaching planetary level in their Super form, to… well… above planetary level.

Honestly, I did not anticipate this development here, but it has indeed occurred. While I appreciate your efforts on the Sonic cast pages, I believe that assigning high-end scaling to each character may be excessive. Do not misunderstand me; I agree with some of the scaling, but other aspects are difficult to accept.

Regardless, I hope I am not causing too much inconvenience (I do not expect to remain here for long). I simply intend to share my opinions on certain topics or to question some of the scaling, etc.

I am curious to see how long high-tier Sonic characters will maintain their status before further changes occur.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Greetings, I am new to VSBW. I was uncertain where to begin, so I started with the character I am most familiar with, which is from the Sonic the Hedgehog series.

Welcome to Vs Battles! We all have a starting point, so I'm glad you chose Sonic as a beginning point.

I would like to express my gratitude for your perseverance, determination, and patience in progressively elevating Sonic characters to higher tiers. They have advanced from being town level in their base form, barely reaching planetary level in their Super form, to… well… above planetary level.

Question, how long have you lurked on the wiki (AKA time spent watching but not commenting)? I ask because I'd like to know to what extent you've seen our progress firsthand.

I started actually commenting circa 2018 back when Super Forms peaked at 5-A (Large Planet level) and Base Forms were 7-B (City level) via Perfect Chaos scaling.

Honestly, I did not anticipate this development here, but it has indeed occurred. While I appreciate your efforts on the Sonic cast pages, I believe that assigning high-end scaling to each character may be excessive. Do not misunderstand me; I agree with some of the scaling, but other aspects are difficult to accept.

Part of the beauty of the Sonic community here is that people will allow you to be entitled to your opinion. Despite whatever reputation may be spread, we're far from a hivemind and we often casually discuss disagreements we have with one another.

Regardless, I appreciate you putting your best foot forward.

Regardless, I hope I am not causing too much inconvenience (I do not expect to remain here for long). I simply intend to share my opinions on certain topics or to question some of the scaling, etc.

Nah, no inconvenience at all. Be warned though, sometimes there will be a lull in discussions and you may not recieve an immediate answer to your questions. That usually comes from a mix of either disinterest, being focused on other threads, etc.

All that being said, I hope you enjoy your time here for however long you decide to stay.

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

3 times actually.

Yet none of it is a solid indicator of anything, really.

 

[Theuser789]

The reason everyone is at high tier is because of chain scaling, which is part of the very base of this wiki.

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

The reason everyone is at high tier is because of chain scaling, which is part of the very base of this wiki.

Which, imo, is fair. Literally every person who would scale a verses uses scaling chain and many other people, just on instinct, use it as well.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Yeah, practically any verse above Tier 2 that has a large portion of the cast scaling to said tier often results in off-site ridicule; but that comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of how scaling works. Especially when it comes to 2-C.

Prime example is Cream (which I've seen several hilarious memes of).

 

[Fezzih_007]

Yet none of it is a solid indicator of anything, really.

It is for a few things.

Not sure why you still responding, I agree with you that the Anti-feat don't do much to harm the scaling, since we can handwave with basic logic.

 

[MusicRelaxing]

Yeah, practically any verse above Tier 2 that has a large portion of the cast scaling to said tier often results in off-site ridicule; but that comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of how scaling works. Especially when it comes to 2-C.

Prime example is Cream (which I've seen several hilarious memes of).

It tends to happen because Tier 2 is essentially an infinite tier iirc, if you're 1/2th of 3 Universes, you'll still be in the "range" of it, just lower in it. You can't "fall out" from the three universes unless extreme anti-feats and/or debunks come out.
But, Cream being able to theoretically nuke our solar system by like, 20x over due to chainscaling is still very funny.

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

It is for a few things.

Not sure why you still responding, I agree with you that the Anti-feat don't do much to harm the scaling, since we can handwave with basic logic.

I'm just elaborating on my point, not trying to argue with you, exactly. I just don't really see it as an anti-feat at all.

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

Yeah, practically any verse above Tier 2 that has a large portion of the cast scaling to said tier often results in off-site ridicule; but that comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of how scaling works. Especially when it comes to 2-C.

Prime example is Cream (which I've seen several hilarious memes of).

People who don't understand powerscaling at all will just say "this is stupid" and then claim to know better LMAO. But this happens with things that aren't just powerscaling, so I guess this tracks.