Tanin_iver
He/Him- 1,058
- 902
Doesn't this prove regen neg tho. Vergil didn't regen even when he could gain energy from DW, or just passively recover his stamina and heal by the time he met Mundus?
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Devil May Cry Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Mister6ame6
- Start date
-
- Tags
- devil may cry
- 6,238
- 5,724
Anyway, simple reality is that Dante not healing while having enough stamina to fight an enemy stronger than himself contradicts the notion that it's stamina that determines his healing. Given that the stamina theory is only a theory, something so clearly contradicting it makes it questionable at best, even leaving other issues aside.
Ser_Hakim_Dayne
He/Him- 4,569
- 1,222
The difference between the two wasn't significant to begin with, so no, it proves nothing.
The gap between the two wasn't that big, otherwise a wounded Dante wouldn't have been able to hold his own like that.
The nameless demons in the DMC3 manga were still able to use their hax on Dante and Vergil, which means they still had their demonic energy (and they still had their personalities and memories too). The mind, the name, and the demonic energy are all "included" in the soul; losing one of the three doesn't mean you'll lose the others as well.
The other characters who have trouble regenerating are for many different and varied reasons; it's not necessarily comparable to DMC.
Even against Mundus, he still hadn't recovered his regeneration and stamina at all. This isn't the first time the DW's passive energy seems to have given no noticeable boost to demons (Dante and Vergil were still fatigued at the end of DMC5 when they were in the DW is a good example, and there are surely many others). The DW's passive boost can only be considered when it's explicitly mentioned, given how inconsistent it is.
There's nothing that contradicts that. There's no explicit mention of negating regeneration or stamina-based regeneration, but if Death Battle is considering the latter, it's because it's the least far-fetched argument and the one that requires the least mental gymnastics. Abigail's case doesn't contradict anything at all because we don't know how long their fight lasted, and the gap between the two was never significant to begin with. Even if Dante and Abigail still had enough stamina, it would be inconsistent if Dante hadn't been able to regenerate, as already explained.
Ser_Hakim_Dayne
He/Him- 4,569
- 1,222
My argument about regeneration being linked to stamina is mainly based on the fights between Dante and Vergil.
- 6,238
- 5,724
If he had as little stamina as when Vergil stomped him, he'd have been stomped. He wasn't. Yet he didn't heal. If stamina determined his ability to heal, he'd have been healing better than Vergil at the end of DMC3. He wasn't. He was healing worse.
Adds weight to the idea he'd evolved between the fights, but regardless, Sid clearly beat him in their first fight with less effort than Dante took to beat Urizen, since he wasn't tired after.
Nero actually lost all of them. The Saviour absorbs souls as well, and had absorbed all of those factors from him.
Actually, it's usually just repeated wounds and cumulative damage. This trope is way too common, and treating one verse harshly for it isn't fair.
Actually, the standard idea of cumulative damage and fatigue without a specific ability or weakness would be the idea that required the least thinking. Or just treating characters getting knocked out while weakened as fiction being fiction.
We know Dante had enough stamina to fight Abigail and yet he wasn't healing.
Significant enough for Sid to beat Dante in their first fight without too much effort, it seemed.
- 6,238
- 5,724
Okay, now we're getting somewhere. Honestly, the trope where cumulative damage slows down the character despite their healing is extremely common, and just based on their fights alone I'd say it was neither the stamina weakness nor the negation, just cumulative damage and fiction being fiction. Given the extra elemental effects of the weapons we have no idea how messed up the hits can make them, like weapon enchantments in Skyrim if they could separate their targets into two beings. How do we regenerate when our horrible brother slashes us repeatedly with his concept manipulating and space time ruining cheat code sword?
Honestly though, DB's interpretation has lots of fundamental flaws that we haven't even touched on yet, if you'd be at all willing to hear me out?
Also, what's your current interpretation of Abigail?
Last edited:
Ser_Hakim_Dayne
He/Him- 4,569
- 1,222
We don't even know how long their fight lasted, and we don't even know how Sid beat Dante exactly. If Dante had received a power-up via AD between the two fights, he would have healed his previously inflicted injury.
The Savior absorbed Nero's entire body. It's not the same kind of absorption as Hades in God of War, who just absorbs your soul to feed on it; it's the same kind as Majin Buu and Cell, who absorb your whole being. So Nero still had his soul within him; he was just one with the Savior.
Often when this happens in fiction, it's precisely because of limited regeneration. In the case of Dante and Vergil, it's a limitation of regeneration via stamina, so it's less harsh.
Regeneration negation layered is by far the most far-fetched argument and requires the most overthinking.
- 6,238
- 5,724
The Saviour is made of absorbed souls, and it had absorbed his body, mind and name, the latter two of which are contained in the soul. It's not a stretch to think it has absorbed his soul as well.
Not always, in fact a lot of the time the regeneration is far better than the scenes would indicate.
Typically it's just fiction being fiction. Think Majin Buu being KO'd by a single blow when he can regenerate from smoke.
Dante's wounds not healing when he has plenty of stamina does indicate some kind of ability interfering with his healing, and power null already exists in DMC, so this sort of thing isn't completely out of left field.
- 6,639
- 9,924
I'm just gonna pop in to say, its honestly kinda refreshing to see actual discussion and debate here rather than PoC/DMC anime slander or doomposting about the future of the franchise.
Ok, I'm out!
Ok, I'm out!
- 6,888
- 4,735
Reminds me of Earl era.
- 6,888
- 4,735
Stamina and Regeneration debate again? We debunked all that 5 years ago with Earl. Why is this a thing again.
- 15,489
- 4,470
Because of the recent deathbattle making it popular again to the masses
- 6,888
- 4,735
Figures. But that show is for casuals and normies. No need to take that seriously on this site.
- 6,238
- 5,724
Hakim is talking about making a CRT to reintroduce it, so it's likely we'll be dealing with it again.
- 6,888
- 4,735
Maybe we make a reverse thread to upgrade regen and stamina, and put a "permanant" rest to this stamina weakness nonsense.
Can I get concise cliff notes of the arguements?
Can I get concise cliff notes of the arguements?
- 6,238
- 5,724
Hakim's argument is basically that Dante and Vergil wound each other and statements imply they're wounded a good deal later. When I raised the Abigail battle he first dismissed it, then later adapted to say that Dante likely had reduced stamina then too or something. He also wants to say Sid lost Abigail's powers, except he doesn't want to give Dante power null to explain that loss.
He won't listen to you, he's already decided the stamina theory is true and that he's going to make a major downgrade thread to add it.
And yes, I do think a note debunking that stamina headcanon in the pages should have been included years ago.
- 20,391
- 20,286
Along what Huesito said too, hakim agrees with this and keeps arguing over and over
- 6,888
- 4,735
Regeneration doesn't have to perfect. You heal something but the wound that was fixed can still be weak, maybe the healing wasn't 100 perfect. Just like real life. You exercise, break muscle fibres, they heal and become "stronger", but it is still fresh and tender and painful, which inhibits performance.
This isn't counting blatant nullification feats for demonic energy. Hostile invading demonic energy eats/corrupts/destroys/nulls victim demonic energy and physiology. Debuffing performance all around, not just regeneration. We have blatant vocalised feats of that.
Sid/Abigail feat is power null anyway around. If you think Abigail power was destroyed that is nullfification feat because Dante pretty much removed/destroyed that power from Sid's soul/physiology without directly hurting Sid. Kinda like that Singer/Siren demon in anime, or Arkham/Force Edge seperation.
Or you believe Sid was just reverse transformed, and his power was intact, but Dante kills Sid anyways. Destroying both Sid and Abigail, their power and regeneration be damned. Which just another null feat.
Because power source is metaphysical in DMC, destroying the metaphysical, destroys the power. And yet some characters regenerate despite complete destruction.
Last edited:
- 6,888
- 4,735
- 6,888
- 4,735
Well if it is such a hot topic. A strong conclusion is definitely warranted which spells why whatever works the way it works. And show it on pages so we have less confused debates.
With recent CRTs, it's a good opportunity to address this. Just make sure no one is overwhelmed with multiple threads if people are busy or dealing with ongoing threads.
- 10,464
- 4,124
There are 3/4 ongoing threads and we still have the beastheads thing pending, after that we have to move on to other deagon threads (like the Yamato bs) and from there on we can work on other stuff like the regen-stamina bs.
From the top of my head and ignoring things like tier 1 and immeasurable speed we have to deal with the whole PoC situation at some point, probably fix the formatting in other profiles and fix scans because I changed some but I'm sure others are dead links by now.
From the top of my head and ignoring things like tier 1 and immeasurable speed we have to deal with the whole PoC situation at some point, probably fix the formatting in other profiles and fix scans because I changed some but I'm sure others are dead links by now.
- 6,888
- 4,735
Yeah, the core focus should right now be pages formatted in way that is nice, presentable and easy to edit.
Scan links should be fixxed asap. Top priority.
Scaling hax metas can come slowly.
Scan links should be fixxed asap. Top priority.
Scaling hax metas can come slowly.
- 10,464
- 4,124
Let's finish the threads we already got pending (which is only the BH), for the others we don't even have drafts so they can come later.
For the dead links we will need to check every profile since iirc a lot of YT videos we used got taken down
For the dead links we will need to check every profile since iirc a lot of YT videos we used got taken down
- 10,464
- 4,124
nvm all of that comes later I need to find the ZZZ discussion thread
- 10,464
- 4,124
anyone else playing PoC?
- 5,387
- 4,827
DmC Reboot Downgrade Thread 3 - It Ain’t Time Manipulation Donte
Introduction: This is a topic I’ve been wanting to tackle for a while, but for one reason or another, I kept putting it off. One of the most common arguments whenever a versus thread is made with El Donte is “Time Stop GG”, but is that even true? Well today, I will be arguing that it isn’t, and...
- 10,464
- 4,124
nooooooo
that's the only good thing Donte got
that's the only good thing Donte got
- 5,387
- 4,827
No Mercy. El Donte ****** us so hard that we had to wait 11 years for DMC 5
- 10,464
- 4,124
I'm still gonna try my hand at defending his sorry ass
- 15,489
- 4,470
- 10,464
- 4,124
We are destroying Donte's only wincon, doesn't seem fair to me :v
- 6,238
- 5,724
Gravity hax that leaves groups of enemies floating in the air is still something. The publicity did repeatedly treat that power as time slow, so maybe there's something there.
Ser_Hakim_Dayne
He/Him- 4,569
- 1,222
We said the Savior had "absorbed" the demons' bodies because they were within him. Demons still had their souls; it was just melted and fused with the Savior as with their bodies. Nero was able to regenerate gradually from the moment he took Yamato, which means that the latter likely recharged him with demonic energy (like here or here).
This has happened five times to the same characters in two different games and each time it was at the end of an intense fight, so it's not unfair at all to conclude that their regeneration has something to do with their stamina.
After careful consideration, my opinion has changed somewhat, but I still think this fight is inconsistent with the fights we see in games and should not be used as an argument.
Dante was weaker than Sid-Abigail not just in the first fight, but also in the second, since we can see him struggling and he's injured. Dante did not receive any power-ups between the two fights because he still has his first injury (every time he gets injured and receives a power-up he regenerates, even against someone still much stronger than him) and even when he transformed into DT his injuries did not regenerate at all (so it contradicts what I showed just before).
The only way Dante could defeat Sid-Abigail was by transforming into DT for just a few seconds to cause an explosion that made Sid lose Abigail's powers (I remind you that Dante was even weaker than during his first fight, where he could not nullify Abigail's regeneration, because he received multiple injuries that do not heal and still hurt him, there is no evidence that he received any power-ups and Sid showed no sign of still having Abigail's powers. Sid didn't necessarily lose Abigail's powers because of a power nullification by Dante, it could be due to other unknown reasons related to the rituals, because we must remember that Sid just stole someone's powers.)
The fact that a wounded Dante was able to hold his own against Sid-Abigail proves that the gap between them wasn't huge to begin with, so there's no reason why Dante couldn't have hurt Sid-Abigail the first time if he has regeneration negation, because I remind you that Qlipoth Fruit-Urizen was able to hurt Dante (and his wounds did not heal for several minutes) even though the latter was more powerful than him.
Whether you're for regeneration negation by power levels or regeneration linked to stamina, in both cases there will be inconsistencies in this fight and it's pointless to use it to counter-argue.
Like?
Last edited:
- 10,464
- 4,124
I mean yeah, that's the main thing
But from the looks of it Donte already lost his only wincon
Sad day for the 2 guys that liked the reboot
- 6,888
- 4,735
Reasurection or Regeneration from complete erasure is impossible if it's hog tied to energy. Because post destruction your energy doesn't exist anymore.
Vergil and Mundus are prime examples.
- 5,387
- 4,827
Speaking of which, currently we have a 7-B rating for demons from a generic storm calc. Has anyone actually calced the power of the storm from DMC 2?
Ser_Hakim_Dayne
He/Him- 4,569
- 1,222
I know
There's nothing to prove that they were completely destroyed or even that they regenerated in these situations (because I assume you're talking about Nelo Angelo and Mundus in DMC1).
- 6,888
- 4,735
We have statements saying otherwise.
If there was any trace left behind, those leftovers would have still faught Dante. Or Dante would have sensed them.
Like imagine if Nelo's soul was not destroyed. Dante picks up the amulet and starts having sad nostalgia about their kid self fighting over chocolate, meanwhile a poltergeist Nelon is facepalming himself in font of Dante wondering why he can't see him.
Nelo Angelo is not John Cena. Neither is Mundus.
Unless we also want to claim Dante can't suddenly see souls or sense presence of others.
- 10,464
- 4,124
- 15,489
- 4,470
Who are these two guys?
