DmC Reboot Downgrade Thread 3 - It Ain’t Time Manipulation Donte

[LegendariumOfLies]

Introduction:
This is a topic I’ve been wanting to tackle for a while, but for one reason or another, I kept putting it off. One of the most common arguments whenever a versus thread is made with El Donte is “Time Stop GG”, but is that even true? Well today, I will be arguing that it isn’t, and that in fact, this reported “Time Manipulation” is nothing but fancy Gravity Manipulation. I warn you in advance this is a long yap.

What The Wiki Provides:
Currently, the wiki provides this as its proof that Donte can stop time. Except, it isn’t even Donte doing this. It's Mundus’. At best, it gives Donte and only Donte resistance to Time Manipulation. Vergin wouldn’t qualify as he is shown to be affected by it.

Gameplay
Given that the current evidence has been shown to be insufficient for Time Manipulation, I predict that the supporters of the DmC Reboot will bring one of two pieces of evidence in an attempt to keep Donte’s Time Manipulation - possibly both. The first one will likely be showing Devil Trigger forcing demons to be thrown into the air and stunned as if paused in time , and the second will likely be this scene from the game. I will tackle the second piece of evidence in the next section, for now, let's focus on Devil Trigger.
So, while it is true that DT for Reboot Donte does throw enemies in the air, there is exactly ZERO evidence that there is any time manipulation involved. The game explains that Devil Trigger is “A manifestation of Dante’s true power, Devil Trigger unleashed sends the world into chaos, throwing surrounding enemies into the air.” At best, this proves that DT employs gravity manipulation with a possibility of chaos manipulation (although I would argue the latter statement is severe wank). Even more damning, is what happens when Donte pulls the demons to the ground. We see that they can actually move around just fine.
At this point, some would likely argue that this means all demons from the DMC Reboot have resistance to Time Manipulation, but ask yourself this, if all Demons have resistance to Time Manipulation, how does DT even affect them? Furthermore, if even base demons have resistance, why does Donte’s DT affect Mundus - arguably the strongest demon in the game?
At this point, the argument will likely shift to layered Time Manipulation or potency of Time Manipulation, but as the following sections will make abundantly clear, this is pure demon shit.

Cutscenes
As stated in the previous section, another common argument for Donte’s Time Manipulation is this scene. For those unable or unwilling to watch, the scene shows Dante activating his Devil Trigger and locking Mundus in place, but the scene also shows that the Debris around Mundus is not paused in time and moving just fine, and that the moment Dante hits him that Mundus is able to move again. Even as Devil Trigger continues, Mundus moves around just fine

Secondary Content
To really put the final nail in the coffin of this absurd argument of “DT has Time Manipulation”, I have decided to use two secondary - but canon - sources to strengthen my argument. The Manual and the Official Game Guide.

1. The Manual:​
   1. “Dante unleashes his inner demonic power, launching all nearby enemies into the air. While Devil Trigger is active, Dante’s health regenerates and his attacks are more powerful” - Page 7​
   2. Notice how nowhere it mentions Time Manipulation or really anything to do with time. Its at best Gravity Manipulation with a bit of Regeneration and Statistics Amplification.​
   3. For those saying I somehow faked the scan, here is the link to the manual site. Notice how it is from Capcom themself.​
2. The Official Guide​
   1. DT provides Dante extra armor, damage capabilities, and sends enemy flying in the air - Page 11​
   2. Once again, nothing do with Time Manipulation​
   3. For those saying that I faked the scan, you can read the entire guide here.​

Conclusion
I think that I have more than proven my point that Donte does not have Time Manipulation. Regardless, I anticipate one of the two following arguments from DmC Reboot Supporters:

1. Donte does have Time Manipulation, it just deactivates when he hits his enemies​
2. Donte has layered - or a higher potency - Time Manipulation​

To which I reply, unless you have a statement or feat which proves that what we are seeing is Time Manipulation, you don’t have an argument. From what I have said and argued, it is at best Gravity Manipulation.

Changes:

1. Remove Time Manipulation from Donte, and remove Resistance of Time Manipulation from Vergin.​
2. Add Resistance to Time Manipulation to Donte​
3. Add Time Manipulation via Hell Gate for Mundus, as he is never shown affecting time without it​
4. Add an acknowledgement to Devil May Cry Landing Page that DMC 2 was better than the Reboot​

THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER
​

Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[Arkenis]

Can't it be slowed time than full time stop or more apparent, it can be used to affect an area or a certain person like with Mundus. I do like the Chaos idea though, randomization or destabilization would fit exactly what's happening.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Can't it be slowed time than full time stop or more apparent, it can be used to affect an area or a certain person like with Mundus

Unfortunately, none of the scans really point towards time manipulation in the first place.

• As the manual says, “Dante unleashes his inner demonic power, launching all nearby enemies into the air. While Devil Trigger is active, Dante’s health regenerates and his attacks are more powerful”
• As the official guide, "DT provides Dante extra armor, damage capabilities, and sends enemy flying in the air"
• And as the game itself states “A manifestation of Dante’s true power, Devil Trigger unleashed sends the world into chaos, throwing surrounding enemies into the air.”

 

[Drite77]

Hm.

One of the most common arguments whenever a versus thread is made with El Donte is “Time Stop GG”

So like, not really? Unless people have been posting Reboot Dante's matchups without his tag, I need to say there is not a lot of that for his arguments, he even lost 3 times already despite people thinking he has Time Stop, which is insane because, if someone doesn't resist it or one shots Dante, that is actually just a win for him no matter what (I think someone only called to that detail once).

Currently, the wiki provides this as its proof that Donte can stop time.

Kinda crazy the person who made the profile went with that clip out of anything else, maybe it would be clear it wasn't time stop. Overall, it seems to be only weird Gravity manipulation, but if you can get more clips of enemies acting normally after Dante enters DT would be neat, but possibly not needed.

Can't it be slowed time than full time stop or more apparent, it can be used to affect an area or a certain person like with Mundus

The Demons move normally and Mundus react with a normal speed when Vergil hits him, matter of fact, once Dante climbs on Mundus, we can see his textures moving normally and he even starts moving as if nothing had happened. You would need to have more proof as there is a lot here that tells Dante can't stop time

 

[JPTheGamer]

Why does DMC always get the short end of the stick with these downgrades?

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Why does DMC always get the short end of the stick with these downgrades?

Reboot DmC not actual DMC

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Kinda crazy the person who made the profile went with that clip out of anything else, maybe it would be clear it wasn't time stop. Overall, it seems to be only weird Gravity manipulation, but if you can get more clips of enemies acting normally after Dante enters DT would be neat, but possibly not needed.

Bro please don't make me replay the reboot. I am begging you.

 

[Drite77]

Bro please don't make me replay the reboot. I am begging you.

If you have it and already played it it can't be that hard to fight some enemies while using DT '-'

 

[Random-Helper323]

It does seem to be gravity manipulation rather than time. Maybe telekinesis? It was always a weird mechanic, but I suspect the idea of it being time manipulation came from likening it to Quicksilver from DMC3. I remember the journalists talking about the reboot at the time described the DT mechanic as resembling Quicksilver.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

If you have it and already played it it can't be that hard to fight some enemies while using DT '-'

It does seem to be gravity manipulation rather than time. Maybe telekinesis? It was always a weird mechanic, but I suspect the idea of it being time manipulation came from likening it to Quicksilver from DMC3. I remember the journalists talking about the reboot at the time described the DT mechanic as resembling Quicksilver.

I assume that is an agree. Donte already has gravity manip, so it would just be removing that

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Donte does have Time Manipulation, it just deactivates when he hits his enemies

I was thinking of using this argument, after all Mundus and the fodder from those videos only move after Dante hits them (or in Mundus case touches his third eye)

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

I was thinking of using this argument, after all Mundus and the fodder from those videos only move after Dante hits them (or in Mundus case touches his third eye)

The problem is all the statements more or less point it to being Gravity Manip not Time Manip
As I have stated before:

Unfortunately, none of the scans really point towards time manipulation in the first place.

• As the manual says, “Dante unleashes his inner demonic power, launching all nearby enemies into the air. While Devil Trigger is active, Dante’s health regenerates and his attacks are more powerful”
• As the official guide, "DT provides Dante extra armor, damage capabilities, and sends enemy flying in the air"
• And as the game itself states “A manifestation of Dante’s true power, Devil Trigger unleashed sends the world into chaos, throwing surrounding enemies into the air.”

Unless there is a statement from the devs or other reputable sources, all evidence points to Gravity Manip

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

It can be both you know... also the definitive edition deleted the whole gravity stuff iirc

While true that we don't have any statement that supports it the feats themselves point towards it having some form of time stop. Also gravity can't just, you know, halt your movements that way (at least that I know of). Occam's razor says it should be time stop or something like that idk

Another thing is that this is a very weird feat:

Currently, the wiki provides this as its proof that Donte can stop time. Except, it isn’t even Donte doing this. It's Mundus’. At best, it gives Donte and only Donte resistance to Time Manipulation. Vergin wouldn’t qualify as he is shown to be affected by it.

Why would Mundus stop time and all that when the point was to throw them into Limbo to get them killed by the environment? It also seems weird it only happens when they are in danger and Donte has to save them. Logically one would say Donte is the one doing it to save them not Mundis who is trying to get them killed.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

It can be both you know... also the definitive edition deleted the whole gravity stuff iirc

No, Definitive Edition kept it in:

While true that we don't have any statement that supports it the feats themselves point towards it having some form of time stop. Also gravity can't just, you know, halt your movements that way (at least that I know of). Occam's razor says it should be time stop or something like that idk

I agree that how it stops is strange, but that doesn't overturn the fact that both statements in and out of the game point heavily towards it being gravity manipulation. Furthermore, while the visuals don't definitively prove that it is Gravity Manipulation, it also doesn't prove that it is Time Manipulation. Due to this stalemate, we have to rely on statements which - so far - have given exactly zero evidence for Time Manipulation.

Another thing is that this is a very weird feat:

Why would Mundus stop time and all that when the point was to throw them into Limbo to get them killed by the environment? It also seems weird it only happens when they are in danger and Donte has to save them. Logically one would say Donte is the one doing it to save them not Mundis who is trying to get them killed.

Because DmC has a shit story
I can't say for certain why Mundus did what he did, but we did get a Dev confirm that its Mundus f*cking with time:

DragonMaster2010:
3.) I don't know if you can answer this, but during The Trade, time would suddenly stand still whenever Kat and Vergil were about to die, giving Dante time to prevent them from dying. Now was the time stopping from Mundus using his powers uncontrollably, Limbo itself messing up, or did Dante have some sort of control over the moments where time stopped before Vergil and Kat got killed?

D0NN1E
I think it was more Mundus not having full control of his powers at that point and firing multiple waves of destruction at the city.

Also more evidence Dante doesn't have Time Manipulation Powers

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

No, Definitive Edition kept it in:

I checked, apparently its only on hard mode or something

I agree that how it stops is strange, but that doesn't overturn the fact that both statements in and out of the game point heavily towards it being gravity manipulation. Furthermore, while the visuals don't definitively prove that it is Gravity Manipulation, it also doesn't prove that it is Time Manipulation. Due to this stalemate, we have to rely on statements which - so far - have given exactly zero evidence for Time Manipulation.

Like I said, it can be both. The feats depiction are clear that demons are being stopped in some way that is never really explained so assuming that it is some kind of time stop (given that's what happens on those videos) that only works up until he hits them seems very likely

snip

Fair enough on the Mandis stuff.

Also this isn't evidence against Donte having time manip >:v


I could compromise with a "possibly time stop" tho it also has enough limitations to be placed in his weakness section

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Like I said, it can be both. The feats depiction are clear that demons are being stopped in some way that is never really explained so assuming that it is some kind of time stop (given that's what happens on those videos) that only works up until he hits them seems very likely

Again, do you have any statement from a reliable source indicating its a time stop? Because all the statements we do have point towards Localized Gravity Manip with TK.

Also this isn't evidence against Donte having time manip >:v

Fair enough

I could compromise with a "possibly time stop" tho it also has enough limitations to be placed in his weakness section

See what I have said in the first line. I find it difficult to compromise on a "possibly" when all official statements point to only Gravity Manip with the visuals being to ambiguous to point one way or the other.
Although there is an argument for Conceptual Manip Type 3 since Vergil destroyed stuff such as Self-Doubt in Vergil's Downfalll

 

[Arkenis]

Again, do you have any statement from a reliable source indicating its a time stop? Because all the statements we do have point towards Localized Gravity Manip with TK.

All you've done so far is prove there's no blatant statement involving time, not that time manip isn't it. This would lead us to a likely or possibly. We have some evidence, that evidence just isn't clear cut calling it time hax. And we don't need a reliable source indicating anything for every/any hax. We determine what's more accurate as we can when it comes to hax. Given that, is there anything that says it's gravity manip?

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

All you've done so far is prove there's no blatant statement involving time, not that time manip isn't it.

Please tell me anything in DT that is specific to time manip and somehow can't be used for Gravity Manip or TK.

We determine what's more accurate as we can when it comes to hax. Given that, is there anything that says it's gravity manip?

Yes we have three separate statements

• As the manual says, “Dante unleashes his inner demonic power, launching all nearby enemies into the air. While Devil Trigger is active, Dante’s health regenerates and his attacks are more powerful”
• As the official guide, "DT provides Dante extra armor, damage capabilities, and sends enemy flying in the air"
• And as the game itself states “A manifestation of Dante’s true power, Devil Trigger unleashed sends the world into chaos, throwing surrounding enemies into the air.”

 

[Arkenis]

Please tell me anything in DT that is specific to time manip and somehow can't be used for Gravity Manip or TK.

Feel like this doesn't really change anything. You could make this argument better if you just show the opposite.

• As the manual says, “Dante unleashes his inner demonic power, launching all nearby enemies into the air. While Devil Trigger is active, Dante’s health regenerates and his attacks are more powerful”

Nothing stating gravity.

• As the official guide, "DT provides Dante extra armor, damage capabilities, and sends enemy flying in the air"

Doesn't say gravity.

• And as the game itself states “A manifestation of Dante’s true power, Devil Trigger unleashed sends the world into chaos, throwing surrounding enemies into the air.”

Still nothing saying gravity.

You've decided gravity fits just how the original page creator decided time hax works.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Feel like this doesn't really change anything. You could make this argument better if you just show the opposite.

Okay, so you don't have anything.

Nothing stating gravity.

Nothing stating its time either.

Doesn't say gravity.

Doesn't say time either

Still nothing saying gravity.

Still nothing saying time either

You've decided gravity fits just how the original page creator decided time hax works.

I believe you have not read the original post because the section right after the introduction shows the evidence of the original page creator provided, and it is a feat completely unrelated to Donte.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Okay, let's calm down a bit. Is there any explicit scene of things slowing down when it activates?

I do raise the issue that time slow wouldn't typically make enemies float, but they also don't react until he hits them, so maybe there's something here, a stun effect perhaps, if nothing else?

 

[ShroobWasTaken]

Okay, let's calm down a bit. Is there any explicit scene of things slowing down when it activates?

I do raise the issue that time slow wouldn't typically make enemies float, but they also don't react until he hits them, so maybe there's something here, a stun effect perhaps, if nothing else?

I mean we've seen multiple cases of beings reacting to attacks performed in time-stop though, like JJBA for example has similar effects. The only issue is a lack of any explicit statement of time-stop/time manip if I'm being honest.

 

[ShroobWasTaken]

So from what I can see, the fact that they slow down so drastically that they stop moving is hard to properly explain. The floating is hard to explain as well, but I feel like Gravity Manip in all honesty, works about as much as Time Manip given the freezing-in-place thing. Both have their reasons, but both also have their contradictions and/or oddities. Gravity Manip doesn't slow somebody down like that unless you get into some weird jargon, and Time Manip doesn't make people float like that.

The lack of concrete context as to what he's really doing here makes this really inconclusive; I think the removal works and should probably be replaced with some sort of Status Effect Inducement rather than anything else. All we know is that he freezes them in place, so any assumption outside of that requires stronger evidence.

I'm thinking something like

Status Effect Inducement (Upon activating Devil Trigger, Dante's foes float in the air and have their movements slowed drastically)

Anyone else?

 

[Random-Helper323]

I mean we've seen multiple cases of beings reacting to attacks performed in time-stop though, like JJBA for example has similar effects. The only issue is a lack of any explicit statement of time-stop/time manip if I'm being honest.

True. If he had time hax as a standard thing it'd hardly be a huge stretch for other characters to resist it.

All the same, this doesn't address the issue about things floating or whether things slow down or not.

So from what I can see, the fact that they slow down so drastically that they stop moving is hard to properly explain. The floating is hard to explain as well, but I feel like Gravity Manip in all honesty, works about as much as Time Manip given the freezing-in-place thing. Both have their reasons, but both also have their contradictions and/or oddities. Gravity Manip doesn't slow somebody down like that unless you get into some weird jargon, and Time Manip doesn't make people float like that.

I guess we could treat it as both, but that still leaves us with an issue of both effects being possible with telekinesis and stun.

The lack of concrete context as to what he's really doing here makes this really inconclusive; I think the removal works and should probably be replaced with some sort of Status Effect Inducement rather than anything else. All we know is that he freezes them in place, so any assumption outside of that requires stronger evidence.

Status effect is interesting.

I think we have to look at what other abilities are present to get our answer. If for example gravity hax or time hax already exists elsewhere it makes it far easier to believe it's present here. What effects already exist in the verse outside of this ability?

 

[ShroobWasTaken]

Status effect is interesting.

I think we have to look at what other abilities are present to get our answer. If for example gravity hax or time hax already exists elsewhere it makes it far easier to believe it's present here. What effects already exist in the verse outside of this ability?

I mean, Status Effect Inducement does indeed cover Time Manip and such. It covers things that debilitate or hinder the opponent in some way; it's a great umbrella way to cover what it could possibly be since we can't properly disseminate it

 

[Arkenis]

Okay, let's calm down a bit. Is there any explicit scene of things slowing down when it activates?

I do raise the issue that time slow wouldn't typically make enemies float, but they also don't react until he hits them, so maybe there's something here, a stun effect perhaps, if nothing else?

The car scene is so explicit.

 

[Arkenis]

I mean, Status Effect Inducement does indeed cover Time Manip and such. It covers things that debilitate or hinder the opponent in some way; it's a great umbrella way to cover what it could possibly be since we can't properly disseminate it

I could be fine with that.

 

[Drite77]

The car scene is so explicit.

Dante didn't do that

 

[Arkenis]

Dante didn't do that

Oh was it Mundus?

 

[Drite77]

Oh was it Mundus?

As you can see in the post, yes, it was him

 

[Random-Helper323]

But is it an explicit time hax feat? That does strengthen the claim for time hax being involved here, if it already exists in the verse.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Gravity is bending space-time. Gravity based time hax gg. Much like SDT Dante's judgement.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

But is it an explicit time hax feat? That does strengthen the claim for time hax being involved here, if it already exists in the verse.

It does but with a caveat. As I posted earlier, a DmC Dev said this:

DragonMaster2010:
3.) I don't know if you can answer this, but during The Trade, time would suddenly stand still whenever Kat and Vergil were about to die, giving Dante time to prevent them from dying. Now was the time stopping from Mundus using his powers uncontrollably, Limbo itself messing up, or did Dante have some sort of control over the moments where time stopped before Vergil and Kat got killed?

D0NN1E
I think it was more Mundus not having full control of his powers at that point and firing multiple waves of destruction at the city.

HOWEVER, this is only seen after he draws from the Hell Gate, and once the Hell Gate is shut, he is never shown using the powers again. Furthermore - although this could be irrelevant - the dev also states Mundus did not have full control over his power (with that being said he was angry at the time, so it could be more emotional than anything).

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

If you have it and already played it it can't be that hard to fight some enemies while using DT '-'

 

[Drite77]

Stuttered a bit, but yeah, I don't think this is time manip

 

[Duedate8898]

While I think it fair to remove Dante's Time Manipulation via DT, I do think the listed scan provided does point towards Time Manipulation resistance as everything around appears to being slowed not just held up as the car does not appear to be losing momentum at any point of any of these time slows.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

While I think it fair to remove Dante's Time Manipulation via DT, I do think the listed scan provided does point towards Time Manipulation resistance as everything around appears to being slowed not just held up as the car does not appear to be losing momentum at any point of any of these time slows.

Yes, I agree with that

 

[Vietthai96]

There are many ways to suspend enemies movement, not just Time Stop could so that

Yeah, this isn't Time Stop, the enemy still getting moved with get hit. Time Slow isn't either because the new enemy just casually jump out of the ground with normal speed, and the enemy who got hit back in the ground move normally

So this is just some kinds of whacky game mechanic. Trying to "translate" this into a power in our wiki, the best i could see is Gravity Manipulation as it lift enemies to the ir and stop them from dropping down due to normal gravity, though it having weakness of not affecting new enemy who jump in or get dragged to the ground

 

[Random-Helper323]

There are many ways to suspend enemies movement, not just Time Stop could so that


Yeah, this isn't Time Stop, the enemy still getting moved with get hit. Time Slow isn't either because the new enemy just casually jump out of the ground with normal speed, and the enemy who got hit back in the ground move normally

So this is just some kinds of whacky game mechanic. Trying to "translate" this into a power in our wiki, the best i could see is Gravity Manipulation as it lift enemies to the ir and stop them from dropping down due to normal gravity, though it having weakness of not affecting new enemy who jump in or get dragged to the ground

Sounds like status effects, like stun, and telekinesis or gravity to account for the floating.

 

[Vietthai96]

Sounds like status effects, like stun, and telekinesis or gravity to account for the floating.

Yeah, Status Effect Inducement is a nice route too, since it can be used effectively for "game mechanic abilities"