JJK: Relativistic Speed CRT (Staff)

[ElJoaki5]

@Duedate8898 gave me authorization to make this.

This is the old thread. Since the proposal is controversial it got flooded, so that's why I'm opening a Staff only version. I've taken off the MHS+ Hakari part since it got no support and makes the thread more controversial than it already is.

The feats
Main

• TF Sukuna was able to react to an Electromagnetic Wave and hit it with World Cutting Slash.
  • Note that this is not the feat where a weakened Meguna aimdodges an electromagnetic wave coming from Kashimo's hand.
• MBA Kashimo dodged the slash mentioned above.
  • Note that while this may be an aim dodge, the calc already accounts for this. Even if Kashimo aimdodged the dismantle, he moved after the EMW was fired and this still lands him in the Relativistic range.

Supportive

• A very weakened Sukuna was able to transform before being killed by the lightning Kashimo fired at him.
  • Note that Sukuna couldn’t have transformed after the lightning hit him. Kashimo did the same thing against Hakari and if he hadn’t healed himself, his head would have been split open and he would have died instantly.
• Gojo states that he'd be able to land Black Flash (Which requires a 0.000001 s timing) at will if it wasn’t luck based. While this may be a timing thing, in order to hit it consistently one shouldn’t be too far off from that perception speed.

Scaling

• 20 f Sukuna and relative should have Relativistic (0.13 c) reaction speeds due to TF Sukuna reacting to an Electromagnetic Wave.
• 20f Sukuna should also have FTL (1.23 c) attack speed with World Cutting Slash.
• MBA Kashimo should have Relativistic (0.11 c) reaction speed due to dodging Sukuna's WCS.

Agree: Duedate8898, Emirp sumitpo & DarkDragonMedeus

 

[KingTempest]

Uhhh
Didn't Sukuna get kept up with by the likes of Maki and Yuta who struggle with sound speed-esque Naoya and the like?

Plus that same "very weakened Sukuna" being able to transform prior being hit by lightning was also tagged by a... yell? Which is legit just strong sound waves.

I know they're god tiers but the verse doesn't seem consistent enough for a jump of this caliber

 

[ElJoaki5]

Uhhh
Didn't Sukuna get kept up with by the likes of Maki and Yuta who struggle with sound speed-esque Naoya and the like?

Only when holding back, otherwise he blitzes. Sukuna doesn’t really have a speed cap.

Plus that same "very weakened Sukuna" being able to transform prior being hit by lightning was also tagged by a... yell? Which is legit just strong sound waves.

Well yeah, but the lightning feat is a perception speed feat so this doesnt contradict it. The lightning feat still works for support tho.
And this wouldn’t be an antifeat for the form of Sukuna thats actually getting relativistic reaction speeds either way.
Plus sound waves expand over a very wide area so not dodging them isnt that bad of an antifeat.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I will comment only once. I wish you guys had more patience instead of jumping straight to massive upgrades but that's what agenda does to someone ig

The Op didn't explained anything so I will try to do it:

The FEAT

Spoiler

THIS is the feat. Kashimo uses his Eletromagnetic Waves (which moves at the speed of light and we accept as such), Sukuna REACTS to it, and make his chants. It's blatant, and it's currently calced as Relativisitc speed. And as such, we have the following alternatives:

1. We accept it and make Sukuna have Relativistic reactions​
2. We consider it an outlier​

And this thread does have the goal of explaining why the feat is not an outlier and can be accepted.

And this is ONLY reaction speed, not COMBAT SPEED. Reaction speed is about how long it takes for your body to start to move, while combat speed is how long it takes to finish the movement

By our current page

Reaction speed is the speed at which a character can react to an event or action. This usually only grants a short movement upon reaction, whereas several movements at the same speed switch it to combat speed.

The "short movement" here would be Sukuna making chants and having a fast thinking process, and that's about it.

NOTE: DO NOT mix the feats, I'm not talking about the one that happened in chapter 237, where Sukuna got hit by a soundwave, since this one is accepted as aim dodge, but the one in chapter 238

Explaining the "anti feats"

Spoiler

Cursed Naoya

Spoiler

Legendary, isn't it
​

Probably the most infamous anti feat within the powerscaling niche. Naoya, who once could only reach transonic speeds, can now hit mach 3 after tons of steps

• He needs to freeze the air in front of him for it not make him slower as stated by Maki
• He needs to pull his memebers inside to increase aerodynamics
• He needs to eject pressurized air and cursed energy and draw in air through inlets to increase speed
• He needs a lot of build up for it, running in circles numerous times

And with that, Cursed Naoya can easily blitz (or outspeed, wathever) Maki, where she could only deal with it after increasing her senses, making her capable to read his movements.

A pretty blatant cap, isn't it? Yes, but not for Sukuna. Not only he could blitz her while weakened, but Maki herself scales above the mach 3 value (Supersonic+, currently) thanks to her senses. And as such, this is IRRELEVANT for Sukuna or Gojo

Shockwave

Spoiler

​

Sukuna gets hit by a shockwave in chapter 237 while weakened to the extreme, which is confirmed to be sound waves

To note:

• The current relativistic feat is about how fast Sukuna can do CHANTS, not how fast he can DODGE
• This Sukuna is way more weakened, while the one doing the feat is using his real body, which is a way to heal himself
• We already scale Sukuna to Hypersonic+ anyway

Piercing Water

Spoiler

​

Sukuna uses Piercing Water to attack, a copy of Piercing Blood, a technqiue that moves at transonic to supersonic speeds. However, the technique speed is dependent on the user. The better the pressure, faster it will go. So for this case there's no major cap. For instance, even when Sukuna is without a heart, hands, his brain melted, internal damage by exploding his insides, no tongue for his lower mouth, soul being slashed away, losing control over his "own" body and having his chest all destroyed by Itadori, the guys could still block, dodge and speed blitz Piercing Blood with ease.

And again, this is mainly about a limited reaction speed, which would allow Sukuna to chant fast, but nothing related to dodge stuff

My personal conclusion: Sukuna should have relativistic reaction speed, but it wouldn't allow him to dodge anything at all, it's just how fast Sukuna can chant and start to move. It's about how long Sukuna takes to START a movement, and not how long it takes to FINISH it.

 

[ElJoaki5]

I will comment only once. I wish you guys had more patience instead of jumping straight to massive upgrades but that's what agenda does to someone ig

The Op didn't explained anything so I will try to do it:

The FEAT

Spoiler

THIS is the feat. Kashimo uses his Eletromagnetic Waves (which moves at the speed of light and we accept as such), Sukuna REACTS to it, and make his chants. It's blatant, and it's currently calced as Relativisitc speed. And as such, we have the following alternatives:

1. We accept it and make Sukuna have Relativistic reactions​
2. We consider it an outlier​

And this thread does have the goal of explaining why the feat is not an outlier and can be accepted.

And this is ONLY reaction speed, not COMBAT SPEED. Reaction speed is about how long it takes for your body to start to move, while combat speed is how long it takes to finish the movement

By our current page

The "short movement" here would be Sukuna making chants and having a fast thinking process, and that's about it.

NOTE: DO NOT mix the feats, I'm not talking about the one that happened in chapter 237, where Sukuna got hit by a soundwave, since this one is accepted as aim dodge, but the one in chapter 238

Explaining the "anti feats"

Spoiler

Cursed Naoya

Spoiler

Legendary, isn't it
​

Probably the most infamous anti feat within the powerscaling niche. Naoya, who once could only reach transonic speeds, can now hit mach 3 after tons of steps

• He needs to freeze the air in front of him for it not make him slower as stated by Maki
• He needs to pull his memebers inside to increase aerodynamics
• He needs to eject pressurized air and cursed energy and draw in air through inlets to increase speed
• He needs a lot of build up for it, running in circles numerous times

And with that, Cursed Naoya can easily blitz (or outspeed, wathever) Maki, where she could only deal with it after increasing her senses, making her capable to read his movements.

A pretty blatant cap, isn't it? Yes, but not for Sukuna. Not only he could blitz her while weakened, but Maki herself scales above the mach 3 value (Supersonic+, currently) thanks to her senses. And as such, this is IRRELEVANT for Sukuna or Gojo

Shockwave

Spoiler

​

Sukuna gets hit by a shockwave in chapter 237 while weakened to the extreme, which is confirmed to be sound waves

To note:

• The current relativistic feat is about how fast Sukuna can do CHANTS, not how fast he can DODGE
• This Sukuna is way more weakened, while the one doing the feat is using his real body, which is a way to heal himself
• We already scale Sukuna to Hypersonic+ anyway

Piercing Water

Spoiler

​

Sukuna uses Piercing Water to attack, a copy of Piercing Blood, a technqiue that moves at transonic to supersonic speeds. However, the technique speed is dependent on the user. The better the pressure, faster it will go. So for this case there's no major cap. For instance, even when Sukuna is without a heart, hands, his brain melted, internal damage by exploding his insides, no tongue for his lower mouth, soul being slashed away, losing control over his "own" body and having his chest all destroyed by Itadori, the guys could still block, dodge and speed blitz Piercing Blood with ease.

And again, this is mainly about a limited reaction speed, which would allow Sukuna to chant fast, but nothing related to dodge stuff

My personal conslusin: Sukuna should have relativistic reaction speed, but it wouldn't allow him to dodge anything at all, it's just how fast Sukuna can chant and start to move. It's about how long Sukuna takes to START a movement, and not how long it takes to FINISH it.

My calc doesnt calculate Sukuna’s chanting speed, it calculates him turning to face the emw before dismantling it

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

My calc doesnt calculate Sukuna’s chanting speed, it calculates him turning to face the emw before dismantling it

Then yeah, you should have made a bigger CRT explaining the inconsistences. I thought you were calcing the timeframe between the EMW and Sukuna and using the value as the reaction speed. If you're calcing movement you need a whole ass document explaining how the characters can match him and how his cursed energy varies, instead of just making small topics not even one paragaph long.

Until then, I will disagree with it.

 

[KingTempest]

Only when holding back, otherwise he blitzes. Sukuna doesn’t really have a speed cap.

I mean yeah but apparently with this same "holding back" Sukuna he was even less interested when he was fighting Kashimo and he has these superior feats, when fighting Rika and Maki (who he would try harder on) it makes no sense

Well yeah, but the lightning feat is a perception speed feat so this doesnt contradict it. The lightning feat still works for support tho.
And this wouldn’t be an antifeat for the form of Sukuna thats actually getting relativistic reaction speeds either way.
Plus sound waves expand over a very wide area so not dodging them isnt that bad of an antifeat.

perception i... guess? maybe just activation speed on top of that
sound waves usually do but it looks like these were specifically focused

 

[Buraqibear]

I mean yeah but apparently with this same "holding back" Sukuna he was even less interested when he was fighting Kashimo and he has these superior feats, when fighting Rika and Maki (who he would try harder on) it makes no sense

He was also heavily nerfed by Yuji’s soul punches and missing his heart against Maki tho

 

[ElJoaki5]

I mean yeah but apparently with this same "holding back" Sukuna he was even less interested when he was fighting Kashimo and he has these superior feats, when fighting Rika and Maki (who he would try harder on) it makes no sense

Kashimo fought Sukuna right after Gojo, and Sukuna states that his CE output kept going down afterwards due to the jumpings. This means that he had higher output against Kashimo than against Yuta.
I dunno what Sukuna said about Rika that showed much interest.
I also feel like you’re downplaying the interest Sukuna had in Kashimo, Sukuna acknowledged Kashimo's strength and used a really strong dismantle to finish him.

When he actually stops holding back against Maki for a moment, he could perfectly scale to the Relativistic value again. There’s nothing contradicting that, as Sukuna just blitzes and overruns Maki without any problem.

 

[Nierre]

Reminder that this is a Staff thread. Get permission from Staff if you're going to comment on this thread

 

[ElJoaki5]

Bump

 

[ElJoaki5]

Bump

 

[ElJoaki5]

Bump

 

[Duedate8898]

I'm fine with this being applied in the limited sense the OP is pushing for.

It is established through multiple statements that Sukuna is superior to everyone else in the verse and that throughout most of when he's fighting with others besides Gojo that he is holding himself back to a certain extent. Hence why we don't currently scale any characters to him in either speed or ap beyond Gojo in the first place. MBA Kashimo is in a bubble separate from anyone else so I don't see any holes in scaling this feat would cause.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I agree with Duedate on this.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Permission granted here

I just wanted to say that MB Kashimo is the only person in the verse that could even remotely have a possibly rating downscaling his stats from the top dogs of JJK because of the way MB is described to work in an almost Heavenly Restriction sort of way on top of his already cracked Base state and even then I say downscaling because its pretty undeniable that he took a really big L to True Form Sukuna, albeit I could have sworn I remember him implying he was gonna go all out on Kashimo just to prove a point to him on what being the strongest is actually about but maybe I'm misremembering the exchange.

 

[ElJoaki5]

Bump just one more vote

 

[ElJoaki5]

Bump

 

[ElJoaki5]

Bump

 

[ElJoaki5]

Bump

 

[ElJoaki5]

Bump

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

DueDate makes sense to me.

 

[ElJoaki5]

DueDate makes sense to me.

Thanks, ill apply it then