Madness Combat: The Savior + Dissonant Reality CRT

[Employe]

Is this Dissonance Reality have many user?, you need at least 5 users to make verse P&A specific page, and with a lot of ability too, there are like 11 abilities on the sandbox


Chaos and probability is fine, but not reality warping, i didn't see anything implied reality can be bend or warped, so statement related to reality


No scan, and also this is more of a invulnerability negation than general power null


The first scan is somehow still the probability hax scan, and it said nothing about gravity being affected, the video also didn't show anything floating like gravity being affected


This is Deconstruction instead based on the video, unless you have scan to prove the "radically alter the atomic makeup of any living thing"


No scan


This is just Madness hax


The statement isn't enough for HDE, infinitely more complex is very vague and broad, you need to prove the Other Place is a higher-dimensional realm or having more than 3 dimension axes, also originated from HDE realm isn't always mean you are HDE yourself

Dissonant is used by Christoff, Phobos, Tricky The Clown (To a degree), Dissonant Golems (Who explicitly can use teleportation thanks to dissonant) , arguably by Hank and by countless fodders from game (i.e bandits and various robots who use it as attacks)

The gravity manipulation is somehow shown when shooting from dissonant weapons amd especially cannons ( 0:35, though for me it looks more like Spatial Manipulation)

Power Nully is here ( 24:30, he says that we can invert its durability into vulnerabilty via a dissonant charged weapon engine which was shown to produce dissonant against Gestalt, although honestly this is more like Dura Neg, but Invulnerability negation is still technically a sub-facet of Power Nullification, so I think it works)

About matter manipulation, the description of dissonant cannon explicitly writes it as "radically alter atomic structure using dissonant" or something like. Sorry that I have no scan on it

 

[Comiphorous]

bump/

 

[Employe]

Bump

 

[Comiphorous]

bump

 

[Vietthai96]

The gravity manipulation is somehow shown when shooting from dissonant weapons amd especially cannons (

This look like nothing to me, just enemies turn into black pieces and float away

24:30, he says that we can invert its durability into vulnerabilty via a dissonant charged weapon engine which was shown to produce dissonant against Gestalt, although honestly this is more like Dura Neg, but Invulnerability negation is still technically a sub-facet of Power Nullification, so I think it works)

Oke i guess, though should list it as Invulnerability Negation

About matter manipulation, the description of dissonant cannon explicitly writes it as "radically alter atomic structure using dissonant" or something like. Sorry that I have no scan on it

Then i can't accept it, due to not having scan, sorry

 

[Employe]

This look like nothing to me, just enemies turn into black pieces and float away



Oke i guess, though should list it as Invulnerability Negation



Then i can't accept it, due to not having scan, sorry

The OP already added scans anyway

 

[Comiphorous]

bump

 

[Comiphorous]

bump

 

[CitRusReality64]

Then i can't accept it, due to not having scan, sorry

I have the scan I think, but is a Imgur post, Imgur isn't working right now, so It won't load.

 

[Vietthai96]

I will evaluate when i have more time; currently I'm swamped with other requests, which i need to finish first.

 

[Comiphorous]

bump. (take your time, Viett)

 

[Comiphorous]

bump

 

[Comiphorous]

bump

 

[Vietthai96]

Sorry, extremely occupied with stuffs, anyway,

Reality Warping/Chaos Manipulation/Probability Manipulation (Dissonant Reality is described to warp reality. Dissonance strips away and warps the logic of whatever it comes in contact with<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Comiphorous/dissonance#cite_note-Climb-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a>)

Reality Warping is fine now

Gravity Manipulation (Dissonance is able to erratically effect the gravity of whatever it comes in contact with<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Comiphorous/dissonance#cite_note-Climb-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a>)

Still disagree; the scan is a reality-warping scan instead, which tell nothing about gravity

And those video above relied too much on vague visual effects, which I disagree with.

Causality Manipulation (Dissonant Reality is implied to be the direct cause of the second past incarnation of Hank appearing in The Other Place<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Comiphorous/dissonance#cite_note-MC9.5-3"><span>[</span>3<span>]</span></a>)

I really don't understand the context in the video; it say nothing to me, so for now i have to disagree

The rest is fine then

 

[Comiphorous]

Still disagree; the scan is a reality-warping scan instead, which tell nothing about gravity

And those video above relied too much on vague visual effects, which I disagree with.

"It strips away the very logic of whatever contacts it. Improbability replaces likelyhood. up is down. Sanity yields to madness"

The effects in game is it reversing gravity on the target up as they get vaporoized. If you still don't agree fair nough it'll go.

I really don't understand the context in the video; it say nothing to me, so for now i have to disagree

The rest is fine then

Figured this one would be a weird cookie.

Basically, the Prime Code appearing when Hank is stabbed by the scorpion arm lists Dissonant (Thread.Thread''I.Dissonant...) being apart of him and was needed to be purged from him before he came back to Nevada. Prime Code is as it sounds by name, code which makes up the person or thing.

Other characters in The Other Place have also had "clones" of different variants of themselves show up as well, with Tricky (who's whole shtick is that he's got a crap ton of Dissonance in his system) being able to use it like crazy.

 

[Vietthai96]

"It strips away the very logic of whatever contacts it. Improbability replaces likelyhood. up is down. Sanity yields to madness"

Seem like a sub-effect of reality warping rather than gravity hax

Figured this one would be a weird cookie.

Basically, the Prime Code appearing when Hank is stabbed by the scorpion arm lists Dissonant (Thread.Thread''I.Dissonant...) being apart of him and was needed to be purged from him before he came back to Nevada. Prime Code is as it sounds by name, code which makes up the person or thing.

Other characters in The Other Place have also had "clones" of different variants of themselves show up as well, with Tricky (who's whole shtick is that he's got a crap ton of it in his system) being able to use it like crazy.

yeah, bbruhh, this is again hard to understand; i can't identify anything other than a bunch of characters showing up, so i still disagree with this. the context is vague; it could be causality hax, or other haxes for all we know. This is open to multiple interpretations

 

[Comiphorous]

Seem like a sub-effect of reality warping rather than gravity hax

yeah, bbruhh, this is again hard to understand; i can't identify anything other than a bunch of characters showing up, so i still disagree with this. the context is vague; it could be causality hax, or other haxes for all we know. This is open to multiple interpretations

It is still a hax of Dissonance, so is there an ability you'd prefer it to be replaced with rather than causality manipulation to fit it's vagueness?

I'd be fine with putting a possibly rating on any ability it is, just to say it's very vague.

 

[Vietthai96]

It is still a hax of Dissonance, so is there an ability you'd prefer it to be replaced with rather than causality manipulation?

Physic Manipulation, i guess

I could see Creation, Duplication, or Soul Manipulation as any sort of replacement

too many interpretations. Well, i guess i go with duplication.

 

[Comiphorous]

Physic Manipulation, i guess

too many interpretations. Well, i guess i go with duplication.

Should the duplication get a possibly/likely rating due to it's vagueness or is a full on rating of duplication fine?

either way, both changes have been made.

 

[Vietthai96]

Possibly

 

[Comiphorous]

Possibly

tis be done.

 

[Employe]

Bump

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Minor Bump

 

[Comiphorous]

bump. i've contacted for a second mod to get this accepted.

 

[Comiphorous]

bump

 

[Mr. Bambu]

8-A sucks btw just throwing that out there

Physics Manipulation (Dissonance is able to erratically effect the gravity of whatever it comes in contact with<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Comiphorous/dissonance#cite_note-Climb-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a>)

The scan for this doesn't seem to actually say what this says it does.

Possibly Duplication (Dissonant Reality is implied to be the direct cause of the second past incarnation of Hank appearing in The Other Place<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Comiphorous/dissonance#cite_note-MC9.5-3"><span>[</span>3<span>]</span></a>)

The scan doesn't really do anything to support this other than showing he was duplicated (or, at least, something that looks like him was there); still, something happened, and with my understanding of the verse, I suspect this is probably right. So.

Matter Manipulation (Dissonance has the power to radically alter the atomic makeup of any living thing, and has been used to completely disintegrate Nevadeans<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Comiphorous/dissonance#cite_note-MC8-4"><span>[</span>4<span>]</span></a>)

I don't love this one, to be honest with you. The way I see this is that they have figured out how to use this to cause matter manip, but that's not so much a fundamental element of the ability. Much like electricity, they seem to be finding ways to harness it towards various ends. I wouldn't take it as an inherent ability, but rather a possible application that some users possess.

Radiation Manipulation (Dissonant Reality is described as a radioactive miasma<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Comiphorous/dissonance#cite_note-TheRush-2"><span>[</span>2<span>]</span></a>)

They clarified this was wrong earlier, it's just what they thought was the case. The madness manip related to this still seems fine, though.

Higher-Dimensional Existence (Dissonance originates from The Other Place,<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Comiphorous/dissonance#cite_note-Asylum-6"><span>[</span>6<span>]</span></a> which is infinitely more complex than what the mind can handle<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Comiphorous/dissonance#cite_note-LastLeg-7"><span>[</span>7<span>]</span></a> and comparable in size to Nevada which is neverending. Director Phobos merging with the realm would have put him at the ranks of The Employers)

I don't think the scans for this really support this? The first one is just Tricky calling Sanford/Deimos morons, the second one is establishing Nevada as "neverending", which doesn't equate to higher-dimensional stuff. Nothing suggests people with access to Dissonance operate on a higher dimensional playing field. Even if the last thing is accurate (no scan), it doesn't really mean anything for the ability itself.

Layered Non-Physical Interaction (Dissonance is capable of affecting and is dangerous to Employers like The Auditor)

Provide me with evidence


anyways TL;DR Radiation Manip is outright disproven internally, I don't think matter manip should be considered an intrinsic ability, the others need scan changes or further justification if you want them on there as right now they seem sorta flimsy, the few abilities I didn't speak on should be fine

 

[Comiphorous]

The scan for this doesn't seem to actually say what this says it does.

fair enough.

The scan doesn't really do anything to support this other than showing he was duplicated (or, at least, something that looks like him was there); still, something happened, and with my understanding of the verse, I suspect this is probably right. So.

I'm 99% sure Krinkles said something on there about it being a clone of hank due to dissonance messing with causality or something, but curiouscat was shot dead so can't be used probably.

I don't love this one, to be honest with you. The way I see this is that they have figured out how to use this to cause matter manip, but that's not so much a fundamental element of the ability. Much like electricity, they seem to be finding ways to harness it towards various ends. I wouldn't take it as an inherent ability, but rather a possible application that some users possess.

I interpreted the scan as Dissonance having the ability and the weapon itself harnessing that power to use instead of them making it do that, especially since every dissonance weapon in the game also vaporizes enemies instead of that being a special effect of that gun specifically. Gestalt's dissonance (which should be raw dissonance due to it's direct connection to the dimension) also has the same effect.

(ps sorry about the bad video, i couldn't find any better examples of Gestalt using his dissonance sob)

They clarified this was wrong earlier, it's just what they thought was the case. The madness manip related to this still seems fine, though.

fair enough.

I don't think the scans for this really support this? The first one is just Tricky calling Sanford/Deimos morons, the second one is establishing Nevada as "neverending", which doesn't equate to higher-dimensional stuff. Nothing suggests people with access to Dissonance operate on a higher dimensional playing field. Even if the last thing is accurate (no scan), it doesn't really mean anything for the ability itself.

Phobos TOP stuff (1, 2)

People with dissonance don't operate on higher dimensional playing fields, the energy itself does. (scans it affecting higher dimensional beings below so that's a bit more proof of that ig)

Provide me with evidence

The Halo was the thing that gave Hank the ability to hit The Auditor in the first place, dissonance just gets the ability by proxy since the only reason Hank has it is due to dissonance in the first place, and The Halo's dissonance it uses just comes from whatever dissonance the user absorbs, so it should apply to the regular energy.

A couple WoG statements have Krinkles talk about it harming The Machine and Employers but i hate WoG statements for this verse 99% of the time but i suppose it's still to be noted.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm 99% sure Krinkles said something on there about it being a clone of hank due to dissonance messing with causality or something, but curiouscat was shot dead so can't be used probably.

Like I said, it has to have some explanation, so I'm signing off on this explanation as what I see as the most likely one.

I interpreted the scan as Dissonance having the ability and the weapon itself harnessing that power to use instead of them making it do that, especially since every dissonance weapon in the game also vaporizes enemies. Gestalt's dissonance (which should be raw dissonance due to it's direct connection to the dimension) also has the same effect.

(ps sorry about the bad video, i couldn't find any better examples of Gestalt using his dissonance sob)

I'd include the Gestalt thing, I think that helps your case a good bit. I'll allow it.

The Halo was the thing that gave Hank the ability to hit The Auditor in the first place, dissonance just gets the ability by proxy since the only reason Hank has it is due to dissonance in the first place, and The Halo's dissonance it uses just comes from whatever dissonance the user absorbs, so it should apply to the regular energy.

A couple WoG statements have Krinkles talk about it harming The Machine and Employers but i hate WoG statements for this verse 99% of the time but i suppose it's still to be noted.

Hank like... definitely grapples the Auditor there, before grabbing the Halo.

 

[Comiphorous]

I'd include the Gestalt thing, I think that helps your case a good bit. I'll allow it.

added.

Hank like... definitely grapples the Auditor there, before grabbing the Halo.

Yeah i'm not exactly sure how that works, because besides that one time Hank's and Sanford's attacks just phase through The Auditor without the halo electricity shenanigans.

Edit: Guns work against spectres and ghosts, so it's not like it's just the guns that don't work against The Auditor. I have no explanation on how Mag Hank achieved what he did.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Hank was able to grab the Halo in the first place because the Auditor's intangibility is activated, NOT passive, making him vulnerable to Hank's surprise attack from behind. After the Halo-amo, Hank is able to hurt the Auditor head-on only by using Dissonance-charged punches (and normal punches after stunning the Auditor with special ones). I went into painstaking detail here for future reference.

As for the layered non-physical interaction, I need to revisit the game to confirm, but I think that comes from even normal grunts being able to fight ghosts and whatnot, whereas the Auditor is even more intangible than that.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Hank was able to grab the Halo in the first place because the Auditor's intangibility is activated, NOT passive, making him vulnerable to Hank's surprise attack from behind. After the Halo-amo, Hank is able to hurt the Auditor head-on only by using Dissonance-charged punches (and normal punches after stunning the Auditor with special ones). I went into painstaking detail here for future reference.

As for the layered non-physical interaction, I need to revisit the game to confirm, but I think that comes from even normal grunts being able to fight ghosts and whatnot, whereas the Auditor is even more intangible than that.

So the Auditor has to activate intangibility actively, but Dissonance allows surpassing that because of the particular nature of their abilities. I could subscribe to that interpretation.

I don't really like the layered argument, though. I think it's flawed. When we see the Auditor intangibility through attacks, we frequently see his body move around the attack. Even in instances where this isn't deliberately shown, it can be assumed that it isn't on such a dramatic scale. I would not accept the interpretation that he's somehow "more" intangible than ghosts (though ghosts are, presumably, not intangible, but rather incorporeal, made of soul-stuff).

I can agree to Non-Phys, then, but not the "layered" proposal.

 

[Comiphorous]

So the Auditor has to activate intangibility actively, but Dissonance allows surpassing that because of the particular nature of their abilities. I could subscribe to that interpretation.

That's essentially the gist.

I don't really like the layered argument, though. I think it's flawed. When we see the Auditor intangibility through attacks, we frequently see his body move around the attack. Even in instances where this isn't deliberately shown, it can be assumed that it isn't on such a dramatic scale. I would not accept the interpretation that he's somehow "more" intangible than ghosts (though ghosts are, presumably, not intangible, but rather incorporeal, made of soul-stuff).

I personally think seeing it as him moving around the attack and him simply just being double intangible seems kinda like a blurred line. Like here it doesn't look like he moved out of the way and teleported away afterwards and here it looks more like the bullets were simply going through him. But I'm not gonna lose hair over it too hard since at the end of the day it is just intangibility for him regardless whether it's layered or not.

I will note that spectres and other ghosts are intangible along with being incorporeal, they phase through solid matter in The Haunting of Nevada House Arena. His layered intangibility comes from the fact that any shmuck in Nevada can punch and shoot ghosts in that level, and he either is avoiding it or is having it phase through him despite that but ig we gotta figure that one out.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Phasing through solid matter would be more a property of incorporeality, though. That's pretty much the standard with ghosts. I think his intangibility is different, but not like. Greater. Layered intangibility would be a new one, for me, and it doesn't make much sense as a concept.

 

[Comiphorous]

Phasing through solid matter would be more a property of incorporeality, though. That's pretty much the standard with ghosts. I think his intangibility is different, but not like. Greater. Layered intangibility would be a new one, for me, and it doesn't make much sense as a concept.

Few verses have it. I know Jojo's Bizarre Adventure famously has layered abilities like that since stands can't be seen or interacted with by ghosts.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yeah that reeks of bullshit, in one's own humble opinion. It might slip through the cracks but it doesn't track with how these things work. Different sorts of intangibility/incorporeality/what have you, but not "layered". I can't really sign off on it. Gotta say no.

 

[Comiphorous]

Yeah that reeks of bullshit, in one's own humble opinion. It might slip through the cracks but it doesn't track with how these things work. Different sorts of intangibility/incorporeality/what have you, but not "layered". I can't really sign off on it. Gotta say no.

Fair nough. any other changes i should make?

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Yeah that reeks of bullshit, in one's own humble opinion. It might slip through the cracks but it doesn't track with how these things work. Different sorts of intangibility/incorporeality/what have you, but not "layered". I can't really sign off on it. Gotta say no.

Well, you're allowed your preferences, but it seems to me that the wiki is clear as to how layering works here. And as you can see on that old Hax Layer Evaluation Thread as well as several case studies since then, there are plenty of abilities that are considered for layers as opposed to saying it's all just some sideways thing. Comiphorus can correct me if the MC: Project Nexus ghosts aren't that ghostly, but a guy like the Auditor who phases through walls and such on the regular being untouchable (short of Dissonance attacks) by those who can fight ghosts seems pretty super-intangible to me. If you think that, say, Castlevania timestop layering isn't layering but just them using "different sorts" of timestop techniques, that's your call. But that does mean you likely have a lot of work to do removing layers elsewhere by revamping the whole way of doing things here.


EDIT: Zeroing in a bit, this is the main point of contention:

I would not accept the interpretation that he's somehow "more" intangible than ghosts (though ghosts are, presumably, not intangible, but rather incorporeal, made of soul-stuff).

The bit before where you say the Auditor is just morphing around attacks I hard-disagree with; that's just the effect of things phasing through him. Such as how the bullet here "drags" part of the Auditor's body as it fails to hurt him; plus there's all those wall-phasing feats we went over in the 8-A thread that are obviously intangibility instead of shape-shifting out of the way of things. It IS more of a fair point to question if those Project Nexus ghosts are intangible enough in the first place, I'll defer to those who've played the game more recently on that... although again, there's a lot of precedent for considering ghosts as such by default, and incorporeality tends to overlap with intangibility anyway.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Well, you're allowed your preferences, but it seems to me that the wiki is clear as to how layering works here. And as you can see on that old Hax Layer Evaluation Thread as well as several case studies since then, there are plenty of abilities that are considered for layers as opposed to saying it's all just some sideways thing. Comiphorus can correct me if the MC: Project Nexus ghosts aren't that ghostly, but a guy like the Auditor who phases through walls and such on the regular being untouchable (short of Dissonance attacks) by those who can fight ghosts seems pretty super-intangible to me. If you think that, say, Castlevania timestop layering isn't layering but just them using "different sorts" of timestop techniques, that's your call. But that does mean you likely have a lot of work to do removing layers elsewhere by revamping the whole way of doing things here.


EDIT: Zeroing in a bit, this is the main point of contention:



The bit before where you say the Auditor is just morphing around attacks I hard-disagree with; that's just the effect of things phasing through him. Such as how the bullet here "drags" part of the Auditor's body as it fails to hurt him; plus there's all those wall-phasing feats we went over in the 8-A thread that are obviously intangibility instead of shape-shifting out of the way of things. It IS more of a fair point to question if those Project Nexus ghosts are intangible enough in the first place, I'll defer to those who've played the game more recently on that... although again, there's a lot of precedent for considering ghosts as such by default, and incorporeality tends to overlap with intangibility anyway.

Neither of those prior instances seem to be relevant. To clarify, my issue is not with "layers"- I was broadly responsible for the "layer" discussion coming to the fore, at a time, when D&D demanded the discussion be made. But it is also true that we do not allow "layers", as we treat them on the wiki, for abilities where this is self-evidently not applicable; something like Hacking isn't layered, we assume one character is more skilled than the other. Fire doesn't get layered, it gets hotter. The same is true here- it does not fundamentally make much sense to apply the "layer" framework to something like Intangibility.

Fair nough. any other changes i should make?

I don't think so, no. I think we're good.

 

[Comiphorous]

Neither of those prior instances seem to be relevant. To clarify, my issue is not with "layers"- I was broadly responsible for the "layer" discussion coming to the fore, at a time, when D&D demanded the discussion be made. But it is also true that we do not allow "layers", as we treat them on the wiki, for abilities where this is self-evidently not applicable; something like Hacking isn't layered, we assume one character is more skilled than the other. Fire doesn't get layered, it gets hotter. The same is true here- it does not fundamentally make much sense to apply the "layer" framework to something like Intangibility.

So for clarification, instead of the auditor’s intangibility being layered per say, (since it doesn’t fundamentally exist) it more so just functions as a higher degree to allow him to phase through hank and sanford’s attacks despite their own non-physical interaction?

Or would it mean a regular nevadean’s non-physical interaction isn’t strong and can only hit specifically ghosts?

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

I don't consider intangibility un-layerble in theory of fiction. It'd be something like radio waves being on increasingly higher frequencies to the point of being harder for even sensitive hardware to receive. There are far weirder things in fiction that are accepted; again, that layered hax acceptance thread has many creative examples. Is there some sort of index standardizing what abilities can & can't be layered here? If not, I suggest we proceed as normal until such a standardization is accepted.

This is assuming the details in question are legit, of course; some relevant footage of the ghosts and whatnot would be appreciated.