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Aslan High 1-A Upgrade

LegendariumOfLies said:
Tash at best downscales. He really isn't Aslan's equal because God > Devil and all that.
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True, but Tash's Country is still an "Infinity - 1" context iirc.

But I edited Aslan's unsure about Tash after I saw his profile as Unknown, possibly Low 1-A.
 
So is somebody willing to handle this soon? 🙏
 
I heard someone mention offsite that Tash's profile seems to have an outdated substance for Low 1-A rating. And was also changed before the 1-A policy changes. Now even a single layer of R>F is 1-A, with an infinite layers being 1-A+. Though Infinity - 1 or Infinity + 1 are still infinity, and thus, the cosmology of Tash's Country would still be 1-A+. Not to mention, he doesn't appear to have a key that separates his Beast/Avatar from his true self; unlike Aslan.

I already handled the accepted update for Aslan's profile, which was upgrading him to Outerverse level+. There were discussions of possible upgrades further, but for the time being, there were also doubts. But neutral about the Tash profile deletion or update.
 
It is a relatively minor character in the books, and it is also bigoted towards Muslims, since C.S. Lewis literally claimed that they are devil-worshippers by creating it. If we do not know how to tier the character, perhaps we should delete its page? 🙏
 
I think that several references were very blatant. 🙏

narnia.fandom.com

Calormen

Calormen — or more formally, the Calormene Empire — was an empire in the south of the World of Narnia. Most of the country had a semi-arid climate, and its most notable geographic features were a volcano known as the Flaming Mountain of Lagour. On Calormen's east was the Bight of Calormen, on...
narnia.fandom.com narnia.fandom.com
 
I've seen profiles on site for characters with less appearances, I don't really see the point of going as far as to delete a profile. Unknown stats may seem a little lackluster, but he still has a Powers & Abilities list going for him that's quite fleshed out, so it's not like it's got nothing to it on the profile (and if it truly is outdated, there may be more to add from there). I suppose we should also consider how much traffic the profile gets, if people are interesting in information about Tash that our wiki can supply to visitors, it lets us stand as a useful resource that deleting the profile would take from us. I get the idea of "but he doesn't appear much", but VSBW does seem to pride itself on giving information on such characters and delivering even niche knowledge to curious visitors. Plus I guess just a personal thing, but it's annoying when profiles get deleted for all that history to just be gone.
 
Okay. I suppose that we could just give Tash unknown statistics in worst case.

Should we also add a footnote about that we recognise that the character is rooted in bigotry towards Muslims, but that since he is a rather important part of Narnia's lore, we have to keep him anyway? 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
It is a relatively minor character in the books, and it is also bigoted towards Muslims, since C.S. Lewis literally claimed that they are devil-worshippers by creating it. If we do not know how to tier the character, perhaps we should delete its page? 🙏
Click to expand...
Keep in mind, Lewis never intended any disrespect per say. Also, Tash is Narnia's Satan was the actual intention. Calorman; which was the tribe that opposed Narnians and worshipped Tash were mainly based on a combination of multiple cults that opposed Judeo-Christians back in Biblical times, particularly the Philistines and Babylonians. That was an argument that cults who worshipped Beezlebub or Baal by committing human sacrifices and such were indirectly worshipping the devil. Of course, some historians have made alleged claims about Spiritual successors, and Lewis raised to believe said church was the ultimate rebel group. He is also sort of based on a combination of "Every god who isn't the one true God" and not any specific one. Albeit he never hated the people in the faith or any other faith and even said things that contradicted what other pastors taught; such as they could be saved through good works done in good faith despite being victims of deception. Which was also something reflected in his work when some good natured Calormans actually ended up in Aslan's country. But I'd rather we avoid getting too in depth publicly.

Neutral about the deletion, but despite his few appearances, he is by no means a minor character. He is the true main villain of Chronicles of Narnia. And while his stats may be bare bones, his powers and abilities are note worthy. While those in itself doesn't validation a page creation, Emile points out that we have seen far worse.
 
Okay. I already agreed that we should not delete the page earlier.

What about a footnote regarding that we mean no disrespect towards Muslims with the page? 🙏
 
Yes, I would like to see scans if we want to put a note like that on the profile.
 
Well, Calormen seemed to be loosely based on old Persian societies, and I remember reading that C.S. Lewis was strongly opposed to Islam and expressed it through his writing. But it has been a long time since I read that. I can ask ChatGPT 5 for help with finding data if you wish though. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Well, Calormen seemed to be loosely based on old Persian societies, and I remember reading that C.S. Lewis was strongly opposed to Islam and expressed it through his writing. But it has been a long time since I read that. I can ask ChatGPT 5 for help with finding data if you wish though. 🙏
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...

So... baseless conjecture, Ant? We need more than Chat GPT and hearsay if we're to put an entire note on a page.
 
I received a reply. Never mind then, I suppose. 🙏

"Short answer: No. Calormen isn’t modeled only (or even chiefly) on Persian culture, and the books themselves don’t support the idea that Lewis meant to imply Muslims are “devil-worshippers.”

What Calormen is based on
  • Lewis built Calormen as a composite “Orientalized” culture—a literary mash-up drawing on Arabian-Nights tropes and the wider ancient Near East, not a single historical society. Scholars point out the stock “eastern” markers and allusions rather than a 1:1 Persia analogue.
  • Even specific Calormene formulas come from the ancient Near East/Bible, not Islam: the set phrase “(the Tisroc) may he live forever” echoes the court greeting “O king, live forever!” addressed to Babylonian/Persian monarchs in Daniel (e.g., Dan. 2:4).
  • Academic discussion of allusions in The Horse and His Boy likewise treats Calormen as “Middle Eastern” in a broad sense, not narrowly Persian or Islamic.

What Calormene religion is (and isn’t)
  • In the text, Calormenes are polytheists who invoke several deities (Tash, Zardeenah, Azaroth) and practice human sacrifice—features that are explicitly un-Islamic. Lewis scholars have used these internal details to argue Calormen isn’t meant as Islam.

What Lewis says about Muslims/Islam
  • In a 1945 talk reprinted in God in the Dock, Lewis classifies Islam as “the greatest of the Christian heresies,” i.e., a serious monotheistic rival—not paganism or devil-worship. (His exact phrasing appears on p. 50 of the essay “Christian Apologetics”.)

What the Narnia text does with Calormenes
  • In The Last Battle, the Calormene soldier Emeth (his name means “truth”) meets Aslan. Aslan tells him: “All the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me… Beloved, unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly.” Lewis uses this to teach that sincere seeking of the good is, in the story’s terms, accepted by Aslan—even when done under the wrong name. That’s the opposite of “they’re devil-worshippers.”

Why people still raise the Islam question
  • Some modern critics have argued the Calormenes read like “Muslim stand-ins.” Gregg Easterbrook famously put it that way in The Atlantic; others echo the point when discussing Orientalism in the books. That’s a critical reading, but it isn’t borne out by Lewis’s theology or by Calormene religion as written.

​

References (numbered)​

  1. C. S. Lewis, “Christian Apologetics,” in God in the Dock (1945): “Islam is only the greatest of the Christian heresies…,” p. 50 (PDF scan).
  2. C. S. Lewis, The Last Battle, ch. “Further Up and Further In”: Aslan to Emeth — “All the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me… Beloved… all find what they truly seek” (curated quotations/pages).
  3. Devin Brown, “Are The Chronicles of Narnia Sexist and Racist?” (C. S. Lewis Society): argues Calormen’s polytheism/human sacrifice marks it as unlike Islam.
  4. Daniel 2:4 (and parallels 3:9; 5:10; 6:6, 21): ancient court acclamation “O king, live forever!”—source behind the Calormene “may he live forever.”
  5. M. D. Hinten, “‘Myself’: Allusions in The Horse and His Boy,” Mythlore (JSTOR): treats Calormen’s markers as Middle-Eastern allusions (not a specific Persian template).
  6. Gregg Easterbrook, “In Defense of C. S. Lewis,” The Atlantic (Oct. 2001): calls the Calormenes “unmistakable Muslim stand-ins.” (A representative critical view, not Lewis’s.)
  7. National Endowment for the Humanities, “A Pilgrim’s Progress” (2020): summarizes the debate, noting Easterbrook’s claim but also pointing to Emeth as counter-evidence in the story itself.
  8. A. Gordon, “‘o sex, please, we’re narnians’: Turkish Delight, Twelfth Night …,” Mythlore / JSTOR (2020): situates Calormen within broader Orientalist readings of the series.

Bottom line: Calormen is a literary, old-fashioned “Oriental” pastiche, not a coded Persia (or Islam). And Lewis’s own writing and the Emeth episode strongly cut against the idea that he equated real-world Muslims with devil-worship."
 
DaReaperMan said:
...

So... baseless conjecture, Ant? We need more than Chat GPT and hearsay if we're to put an entire note on a page.
Click to expand...
Not baseless. I remember reading at least one article about it long ago, but it seems to be a more complicated issue than I thought. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Not baseless. I remember reading at least one article about it long ago, but it seems to be a more complicated issue than I thought. 🙏
Click to expand...
You realize people can just lie, right? Articles aren't always fact.
 
Yes, although it seemed to make sense to me from what I remembered of reading the books. I stand corrected though. 🙏
 
So what currently remains to be done here? 🙏
 
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