• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Legends General Grievous Key division proposal

Eficiente

Eficiente

He/Him
VS Battles
Retired
Messages
15,742
Reaction score
5,342
There is Disney canon Grievous and Legends canon Grievous, but then even Legends portrays Grievous in 2 different, contradictory ways; T-canon and C-canon. I propose his Legends profile to have 2 Keys for each portrayal.


I made a blog about it that's more of a character analysis. For this CRT, you don't need to read all of it, just the "Proposed distinction", "Canonicity", "Backstories", "Coughing", "Escapes", and some of the "Powerscaling" part. With the rest, I guess you can play the devil's advocate and say that it doesn't matter.

When you read the "Canonicity" part, you will find some official statements recognizing how contradictory things are, and how one can choose which version of the character one feels like. Granted, there is a little bit of everything when it comes to official statements regarding canon.
 
Last edited:
Bump.

My thoughts in making this thread is that some people will instinctively disagree, but I have a healthy amount of confidence they would agree if they read what's up with the topic.
 
I would agree with the separation of T-canon keys from C-Canon in general, but they are still the same character sadly and I find it's better to elect what feats are consistent and use them as the baseline and ignore the (evident) low showings TCW has. Either way is fine though.
 
Are you viewing him in terms of feats only? They both are "the same character" and they are "not the same character," with statements such as these going in line with the idea:

"I personally as a fan never think of it as discrediting any of the other material, it's just that other material is from a different point of view, a different look at the war and take on the war."

"How you interpret the story depends largely on what backstory you like. If you believe Grievous was shot down in a shuttle by Dooku and put back together, I think that story is there, it’s just that Grievous has invented this new “story” of choosing his alterations. If you don’t believe in the EU version of the story or didn’t like it, then perhaps this new revelation that Grievous was a warrior whose lust for power made him choose to be altered, suits you better. Again a great many of the truths we cling to depend largely on our own point of view."

"The EU is a well of ideas, and there's what's on screen. They don't live in the same universe. Everyone wants to think so, I know, and there is a lot of effort to make it all work, but it's pretty clear when you start really looking at it that when you take ideas from the printed realm and bring it on screen, it's not always the same. They relate. There are similarities. [...] We try hard to honor things when we can, to give nods to things, but at the end of the day there is a difference between what you see in the Star Wars films and TV series and what you see in those books."

On top of the contradictions themselves.

Using feats from a C-canon when T-canon Grievous has nothing to do with that would be having one's cake and eat it too, since the way they justify the contradictions is to say:
  • T-canon and C-canon are different for him and one can choose whichever they like more.
  • Or C-canon is not canon, at which point all his feats there don't matter.
But in context, I find clear that the latter is a weird way to refer to the former.
 
We'd need a few things:
  1. A Sandbox with the proposed changes
  2. A note summarizing why this is the way it is
  3. A blog with this stuff to link in said note.
Overall, I actually agree with this. Damn fine work.
 
Eficiente said:
Are you viewing him in terms of feats only? They both are "the same character" and they are "not the same character," with statements such as these going in line with the idea:

"I personally as a fan never think of it as discrediting any of the other material, it's just that other material is from a different point of view, a different look at the war and take on the war."

"How you interpret the story depends largely on what backstory you like. If you believe Grievous was shot down in a shuttle by Dooku and put back together, I think that story is there, it’s just that Grievous has invented this new “story” of choosing his alterations. If you don’t believe in the EU version of the story or didn’t like it, then perhaps this new revelation that Grievous was a warrior whose lust for power made him choose to be altered, suits you better. Again a great many of the truths we cling to depend largely on our own point of view."

"The EU is a well of ideas, and there's what's on screen. They don't live in the same universe. Everyone wants to think so, I know, and there is a lot of effort to make it all work, but it's pretty clear when you start really looking at it that when you take ideas from the printed realm and bring it on screen, it's not always the same. They relate. There are similarities. [...] We try hard to honor things when we can, to give nods to things, but at the end of the day there is a difference between what you see in the Star Wars films and TV series and what you see in those books."

On top of the contradictions themselves.

Using feats from a C-canon when T-canon Grievous has nothing to do with that would be having one's cake and eat it too, since the way they justify the contradictions is to say:
  • T-canon and C-canon are different for him and one can choose whichever they like more.
  • Or C-canon is not canon, at which point all his feats there don't matter.
But in context, I find clear that the latter is a weird way to refer to the former.
Click to expand...
Feats, statements, or showings. I tend to analyze the verse from consistency through all three, and whatever narrative is consistent across all three I go with. It's probably the best way to rectify the very contradictory mediums when looking at them from a holistic standpoint.
 
Eficiente said:
For the record, I'm working on a profile reworked here. I will say when it's done.
Click to expand...
C-Canon Grievous can be in the At Least 5-B crowd, but overall from what I can see, very good work.

Weird scaling when it comes to Old Republic, since Malak predates the rule of two by like a few Millenia, and the one who best him was Revan who... yeah.
 
As I've said before T-Canon altogether needs to be taken out almost entirely from the C-Canon stuff, if we were willing to accept to consider Moore's Manhatten and DC's as separate characters (When unfortunately by official licensing they aren't.) Then the same should be said for C-Canon and T-Canon. With some T-Canon involvement that Primary C-Canon stories to be ignored, such as Maul's origin retcon.
 
DaReaperMan said:
Scaling is weird cross-era, for obvious reasons. It can be done, but espeically with Sith like Malak, things swiftly get a little *****.
Click to expand...
No kidding. I think there's technically an officially licensed piece of merchandise that all but claims Revan and Malak were like Sidious tier characters that was part of some toyline with lore bits attached to them a long time ago.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
No kidding. I think there's technically an officially licensed piece of merchandise that all but claims Revan and Malak were like Sidious tier characters that was part of some toyline with lore bits attached to them a long time ago.
Click to expand...
This is further backed up if you believe that Exar Kun statement about Luke claiming he's stronger than Palpatine because Revan is outright stated to be the strongest Sith Lord in generations and Exar only died a couple years before Revan's birth.
 
Last edited:
Eficiente said:
Ok so with this edit I repurposed my prior claim into something that makes sense.
Click to expand...
It does.

I'd admittedly be VERY ******* careful using that statement, but for Malak it's probably fine.

And the reason to be careful with it is that Sith like Valkorion/Vitiate/Tenebrae exist, and I shouldn't have to say adding so many to the 4-B crowd(AKA the god-tier mortal crowd) isn't the world's best idea.
 
Fireld said:
Well this is interesting.
I assume you may have accidently mixed up T & C-Canon in the Ventress' section?
Click to expand...
Yes, thank you. It's fixed now.
Fireld said:
I think Dooku's lines from the Lightsaber Duels videogame could be useful for Grievous' C-Canon portray too:
-Dooku pointing out Grievous' speed as cyborg
-Advising Grievous to use mental warfare because of him lacking of Force abilities
-Giving Grievous pointers on his fighting style
-Putting Grievous under harsh training and getting impressed by the general's progress
Click to expand...
Yes, I noticed but didn't apply it yet. Thanks again.
DaReaperMan said:
It does.

I'd admittedly be VERY ******* careful using that statement, but for Malak it's probably fine.

And the reason to be careful with it is that Sith like Valkorion/Vitiate/Tenebrae exist, and I shouldn't have to say adding so many to the 4-B crowd(AKA the god-tier mortal crowd) isn't the world's best idea.
Click to expand...
In this or any regard, anyone can propose a new wording to further polish my proposals.
 
I guess I'm not inheritly against splitting pre and post TCW stuff. The main issue is that Grevious and any other pre T-Canon series would need to have their scaling limited to showings before the TV show. If they rely on feats from 2010 for a rating they shouldn't get them.
 
Eficiente said:
There is Disney canon Grievous and Legends canon Grievous, but then even Legends portrays Grievous in 2 different, contradictory ways; T-canon and C-canon. I propose his Legends profile to have 2 Keys for each portrayal.


I made a blog about it that's more of a character analysis. For this CRT, you don't need to read all of it, just the "Proposed distinction", "Canonicity", "Backstories", "Coughing", "Escapes", and some of the "Powerscaling" part. With the rest, I guess you can play the devil's advocate and say that it doesn't matter.

When you read the "Canonicity" part, you will find some official statements recognizing how contradictory things are, and how one can choose which version of the character one feels like. Granted, there is a little bit of everything when it comes to official statements regarding canon.
Click to expand...
Reference 12 is broken it seems.
 
From the looks of it, it looks T-Canon is going to be separate from C-Canon stories, and my opinion rightfully so, but what would happen to Maul after this with his just his phantom menace and super questionable highly likely non canon to c canon Star Wars Tales feats against Vader?
Because supposedly Maul in questionable C-Canon is comparable to Vader.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
No kidding. I think there's technically an officially licensed piece of merchandise that all but claims Revan and Malak were like Sidious tier characters that was part of some toyline with lore bits attached to them a long time ago.
Click to expand...
Don’t forget Palestine seemingly holding Malgus as more impressive then Jadus or Vitiate
 
Yeah, i agree with the thread. The blog is very accurate and detailed and shows exactly why T-Canon should be separated from C-Canon. They consistenly contradict each other in ways that can't be reconcilled. Filoni also said in Insider 134 shortly before the split that EU and Clone Wars were in separate universes

Also, reminder Grievous lost to gungans
 
Also, i feel like this CRT could be extended. We're tackling Grievous for now, but this should apply to all of the EU and TCW as well. A separate blog might help with explaining why we shouldn't count T-Canon as C-Canon.

For now, there is a two part video explaining why it's the case, and even a chart showing the problems TCW causes if it's EU material.
 
TyranoDoom30 said:
Also, i feel like this CRT could be extended. We're tackling Grievous for now, but this should apply to all of the EU and TCW as well. A separate blog might help with explaining why we shouldn't count T-Canon as C-Canon.
Click to expand...
Lowkey I could see this and I think By suggested

My only problem is TCW was a higher form on the tiering and TCW retcons like Talzin and the Ones came up
 
Hellbeast said:
My only problem is TCW was a higher form on the tiering and TCW retcons like Talzin and the Ones came up
Click to expand...
Yeah, they are mentioned in C-Canon material (Specially in regards to Abeloth lore in Fate of the Jedi), but i feel like it's those C-Canon versions only and they don't have to be necessarily the same ones from T-Canon. It's like many reincarnations of Godzilla, they are sequels to 54 but are not the same universes as some other reincarnations. Hell, TCW material even contradicts the Plagueis novel by making Talzin Maul's biological mother.

But yeah, a tiny little bit of TCW media can be EU, but overall we should completely separate the two. They are just not meant to work with one another. Even Maul returning is a contradiction as all EU material prior to TCW had him dead, with his remains even being salvaged to create the Maul clone Vader fought. The soundtrack when he dies is also literally named "The Death of Qui Gon and Darth Maul". Yes, i'm aware of Son of Dathomir but either we treat that as an outlier or say Maul somehow returned, took control of Mandalor alongside Opress and Sidious defeated him without mentioning much of the TCW stuff
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

TegamiBachi25
Mira Yoo vs General Grievous (God of High School vs Star Wars Legends)
Replies
10
Views
908
DavidTPPM
DavidTPPM
XSOULOFCINDERX
General Grievous vs Sundowner [0-0-0]
2
Replies
44
Views
3K
XSOULOFCINDERX
XSOULOFCINDERX
XSOULOFCINDERX
Legends Grievous Speed Feat Update
Replies
16
Views
2K
XSOULOFCINDERX
XSOULOFCINDERX
Ruby_R_Dracula
Grievous vs The Batter (Star Wars EU vs OFF)
2
Replies
55
Views
4K
TegamiBachi25
TegamiBachi25
Ruby_R_Dracula
  • Locked
Endless War in the Stars (General Grievous vs Yoru) -Star Wars vs Chainsaw Man- 7-0-0
Replies
29
Views
2K
Ruby_R_Dracula
Ruby_R_Dracula
Back
Top