Battle for the 5th strongest in tier High 6-B: Shion vs Quria

[sukuna171]

I'm still going off profiles, unlike Takens, the Sword Logic does not specify fate as an application. Moreover what does "can defy normal causality" mean? So they are normally not Aca, but in a specific scenario they can become one?

sword logic page is very outdated

 

[AlexSamDen]

sword logic page is very outdated

Then maybe provide scans from the justification, so that I can actually discern that there is really no difference between Taken Aca4 and SL Aca4 and it's not an in-fandom headcanon that appeared due to similar names

 

[DaReaperMan]

Then maybe provide scans from the justification, so that I can actually discern that there is really no difference between Taken Aca4 and SL Aca4 and it's not an in-fandom headcanon that appeared due to similar names

Sword Logic as a page was last properly updated in like, the late 2010s

So uh... can't expect scans for a profile that ancient

 

[Deonment]

Sword logic only grants Aca towards causality and not fate.

Paracausality, which is what Sword Logic grants, doesn't give just that, to quote the warlock page

Precognition, Power Mimicry, Information Analysis and Analytical Prediction (Paracausal entities can’t be simulated normally[94][95][96][97][98][99][100][101][31]), Power Absorption and Power Modification (Paracausal powers have proven difficult to steal and modify[102][103][104][64]), Fate Manipulation and Causality Manipulation (Lightbearers act outside of normal cause and effect and make their own fate[29][30][31][32][33][34][35][36][37][38][39][40][41][38]), Physics Manipulation (Paracausal entities are aberrations of physics and the Light and Darkness are superordinate to material physics[105][106][107][108][109])

Also Paracausality being was sword logic grants is pretty explicit, see the entirety of the Books of Sorrow

I thought we went through it back in the general thread, Shion resists mimicry

I decided to let WHY handle that stuff, I didn't drop it wholly
And the vex do not care
They will either a)just ritual-of-better-thoughts their way into a way that'll let them copy her kit (whether through bootstrap or otherwise) with their far more layered mimicry, or they will b)copy the effects they see her perform, simply just observing ascendant space was enough for Quria to go from being entirely unable to figure out anything with sword logic to being able to copy and use it, they'll see how she manipulates reality and the effects she has on it (something that they can easily do), and reverse engineer her powerset from there

Don't ask me, I know shit about what happened there, I'm going off profile here. Did these characters have any specific anti-teleport abilities?

Crota and the Daughters were actively trying to close the portal, Oryx has total and complete control over its Space-Time

 

[sukuna171]

Then maybe provide scans from the justification, so that I can actually discern that there is really no difference between Taken Aca4 and SL Aca4 and it's not an in-fandom headcanon that appeared due to similar names

Spoiler: paracausal

An endless ivory plane extends. The truth of time is laid bare here in opposition to you, Cause and Effect are predeterminate Law. What has happened will occur. What occurs has happened. What will happen has occurred.

Spoiler: fate

"It cannot be done. The Weapon will do it."

"You are a Weapon to defy fate."

"A diversion from fate."

 

[AlexSamDen]

Paracausality, which is what Sword Logic grants, doesn't give just that, to quote the warlock page

Don't see a mention of sword logic there

Also Paracausality being was sword logic grants is pretty explicit,

Yeah, but I don't know if it's the same kind

see the entirety of the Books of Sorrow

I'm sorry?

I decided to let WHY handle that stuff, I didn't drop it wholly
And the vex do not care
They will either a)just ritual-of-better-thoughts their way into a way that'll let them copy her kit (whether through bootstrap or otherwise) with their far more layered mimicry, or they will b)copy the effects they see her perform, simply just observing ascendant space was enough for Quria to go from being entirely unable to figure out anything with sword logic to being able to copy and use it, they'll see how she manipulates reality and the effects she has on it (something that they can easily do), and reverse engineer her powerset from there

That's cool, but how long does it actually take them to try replicate it. (Also, replicating CM1, while not having anything CM1 on your own does seem a bit NLF-like)

Crota and the Daughters were actively trying to close the portal, Oryx has total and complete control over its Space-Time

"Try to close" doesn't really seem like anything significant and if what I read from her character summary is right, when Oryx came it was over pretty quickly, so don't know how her opposing him works here

 

[AlexSamDen]

Spoiler: paracausal

An endless ivory plane extends. The truth of time is laid bare here in opposition to you, Cause and Effect are predeterminate Law. What has happened will occur. What occurs has happened. What will happen has occurred.

Spoiler: fate

"It cannot be done. The Weapon will do it."

"You are a Weapon to defy fate."

"A diversion from fate."

And more context? "Weapon to defy fate" can be a lot of things, context matters

 

[sukuna171]

That's cool, but how long does it actually take them to try replicate it. (Also, replicating CM1, while not having anything CM1 on your own does seem a bit NLF-like)

Actually, the Vex have replicated CM1 before.

 

[AlexSamDen]

Actually, the Vex have used CM1 before.

Which is a different type of Vex? If every group of Vex shared their abilities there would be no need to make separate profiles. They only have their intristic abilities and what is beyond that is for this group to demonstrate

 

[sukuna171]

The Vex are all interconnected through a collective mind, enabling them to share information and knowledge freely. As a group, they can simulate an infinite number of universes with remarkable accuracy, though they struggle to comprehend certain entities like Oryx, the Taken King. They constantly predict and simulate possibilities, allowing them to foresee the future with incredible precision. Their collective mind spans across space and time, with Vex from both the past and future contributing to this shared network.

 

[Deonment]

Don't see a mention of sword logic there

Because I was using the warlock's page as an easy example, and it doesn't need to be because paracausality is quite literally universal in nature, the source does not matter

Yeah, but I don't know if it's the same kind

Paracausality is the same no matter the source, but if you want a direct quote

Oryx knew that all life could be described as cellular automata, except for that life which understood the Deep or the Sky, and thus escaped causality.

The Deep is the Darkness which is the source of Sword Logic which Quria has, this is from Oryx who is basically The Sword Logic Guy

That's cool, but how long does it actually take them to try replicate it. (Also, replicating CM1, while not having anything CM1 on your own does seem a bit NLF-like)

Quria replicated Sword Logic (which is darkness and ontological in nature, and CM1) just by seeing Oryx's throne world, and timescales do not matter to the Vex who run circles around time

"Try to close" doesn't really seem like anything significant and if what I read from her character summary is right, when Oryx came it was over pretty quickly, so don't know how her opposing him works here

"Quickly" He showed up after a couple of hundred years, and then spent a couple of years dealing with them, entirely unable to shut them out without entirely overhauling his Throne World

Which is a different type of Vex? If every group of Vex shared their abilities there would be no need to make separate profiles. They only have their intristic abilities and what is beyond that is for this group to demonstrate

The Vex are a collective, and share all knowledge between said collective, each capable of summoning vex from other spaces and times freely
Their knowledge is shared among each member (and in specific, the Gorgon is based around data Quria in specific analyzed from Oryx romping around), though Quria cannot summon Gorgons otherwise this would be a very different match

 

[sukuna171]

Just so you're aware, "sky" and "deep" are other names for light and dark.

 

[Deonment]

Just so you're aware, "sky" and "deep" are other names for light and dark.

I did already mention that in my post

 

[AlexSamDen]

Because I was using the warlock's page as an easy example, and it doesn't need to be because paracausality is quite literally universal in nature, the source does not matter

Then why tf is is stated to have different abilities?

Paracausality is the same no matter the source, but if you want a direct quote

The Deep is the Darkness which is the source of Sword Logic which Quria has, this is from Oryx who is basically The Sword Logic Guy

Still not really buying it, as you still didn't provide a single fate-related quote for SL, but okay

Quria replicated Sword Logic (which is darkness and ontological in nature, and CM1) just by seeing Oryx's throne world,

Isn't SL literally an impure version of Darkness? Where does its nature as CM1 even come from then. Heck, its own abilities are listed as CM2 and 3

and timescales do not matter to the Vex who run circles around time

There actually a funny thing for this one, the characters in the verse have an unconventional Aca1 due to the fact that you can't go to their past and every such attempt will result in a separate timeline being created

"Quickly" He showed up after a couple of hundred years, and then spent a couple of years dealing with them, entirely unable to shut them out without entirely overhauling his Throne World

Well, anyways, the ability is able to prevent beings who rip holes in spacetime just with their presence

The Vex are a collective, and share all knowledge between said collective, each capable of summoning vex from other spaces and times freely

Summoning is kinda being discussed rn

Their knowledge is shared among each member (and in specific, the Gorgon is based around data Quria in specific analyzed from Oryx romping around), though Quria cannot summon Gorgons otherwise this would be a very different match

Was the analysis made in Vex space and with utilisation of PM? If any of that is yes, we are not sure whether it will be possible here.
And as I said, if they take like 5-10 minutes to deal with Shion, Shion will just slam them with US evolution

 

[AlexSamDen]

Actually, a bit of a question for the OP: doesn't the arena prevent outside forces from intervening and doesn't let the participants leave the battlefield?

 

[sukuna171]

Isn't SL literally an impure version of Darkness? Where does its nature as CM1 even come from then. Heck, its own abilities are listed as CM2 and 3

Where did you learn that Sword Logic is an impure version of Darkness? Sword Logic is survival of the fittest, a fundamental concept closely tied to Darkness.

Spoiler

They are not all mine, not in the way that admirers such as my man oryx are mine: utterly devoted to the practice of my principle. But some of them have, nonetheless, found their way home.

 

[AlexSamDen]

Where did you learn that Sword Logic is an impure version of Darkness? Sword Logic is survival of the fittest, a fundamental concept closely tied to Darkness.

Spoiler

They are not all mine, not in the way that admirers such as my man oryx are mine: utterly devoted to the practice of my principle. But some of them have, nonetheless, found their way home.

Literally from sword logic page

The Darkness describes itself as the Sword Logic in purest form

If darkness is the purest form of SL, then general SL is an impure darkness

And "closely tied" doesn't actually mean sht in scaling

 

[sukuna171]

Still not really buying it, as you still didn't provide a single fate-related quote for SL, but okay

Spoiler

A special new rule. Something to…" The gardener threw up their hands in exasperation. "I don't know. To reward those who make space for new complexity. A power that helps those who make strength from heterodoxy, and who steer the game away from gridlock. Something to ensure there's always someone building something new. It'll have to be separate from the rest of the rules, running in parallel, so it can't be compromised. And we'll have to be very careful, so it doesn't disrupt the whole game…"

 

[AlexSamDen]

Spoiler

A special new rule. Something to…" The gardener threw up their hands in exasperation. "I don't know. To reward those who make space for new complexity. A power that helps those who make strength from heterodoxy, and who steer the game away from gridlock. Something to ensure there's always someone building something new. It'll have to be separate from the rest of the rules, running in parallel, so it can't be compromised. And we'll have to be very careful, so it doesn't disrupt the whole game…"

Don't really see fate here

 

[sukuna171]

Don't really see fate here

Light and Dark are separate from everything else in Destiny's cosmology, which encompasses fate and causality. It's worth noting that the speaker in that lore card is the Gardener, the one who created Destiny's cosmology.

 

[AlexSamDen]

Light and Dark are separate from everything else in Destiny's cosmology, which encompasses fate and causality. It's worth noting that the speaker in that lore card is the Gardener, the one who created Destiny's cosmology.

That doesn't mean one can't inflict a new fate on them?

 

[sukuna171]

That doesn't mean one can't inflict a new fate on them?

"It cannot be done. The Weapon will do it."

"You are a Weapon to defy fate."

"A diversion from fate.

 

[AlexSamDen]

"It cannot be done. The Weapon will do it."

"You are a Weapon to defy fate."

"A diversion from fate.

You already provided this quote, to which I asked for more context, as just like this it doesn't mean anything

 

[sukuna171]

You already provided this quote, to which I asked for more context, as just like this it doesn't mean anything

The Nine have the power to manipulate fate, but they are unable to interfere with the fate of Guardians due to their connection to the Light. It's their voices you see in those lore cards.

 

[AlexSamDen]

The Nine have the power to manipulate fate, but they are unable to interfere with the fate of Guardians due to their connection to the Light. It's their voices you see in those lore cards.

A quick glance at their profile and there is no fate manipulation there

 

[sukuna171]

Yeah, because it's the Information Edge of Fate storyline that was released two months ago.

A quick glance at their profile and there is no fate manipulation there

 

[sukuna171]

—(VI)—

OUR STRENGTH IS ABSOLUTE AS I HAVE SEEN IT

WE SHALL EXERT OUR WILL

THE TOOL OF CONDUCTION WILL BARE A SCHEME BY FATED LAW

AS WE DICTATE

 

[AlexSamDen]

—(VI)—

OUR STRENGTH IS ABSOLUTE AS I HAVE SEEN IT

WE SHALL EXERT OUR WILL

THE TOOL OF CONDUCTION WILL BARE A SCHEME BY FATED LAW

AS WE DICTATE

Seems to lean more to Law than Fate, as "fated law" seems more like an expression of inevitability, rather than actual fate manipulation

 

[sukuna171]

Seems to lean more to Law than Fate, as "fated law" seems more like an expression of inevitability, rather than actual fate manipulation

Dude, the storyline is called Edge of FATE, and the whole story is about being free from the restrictions of fate.

Spoiler

[You see the chain of unbroken symbiosis, linkages tugging between cosmic spatial tesseracts tucked amid past and future presents, and planetary shackles anchored to the bedrock of reality.]

we see + you see + out ahead + a diversion from fate

 

[AlexSamDen]

Dude, the storyline is called Edge of FATE, and the whole story is about being free from the restrictions of fate.

How tf am I supposed to know that?

Spoiler

[You see the chain of unbroken symbiosis, linkages tugging between cosmic spatial tesseracts tucked amid past and future presents, and planetary shackles anchored to the bedrock of reality.]

we see + you see + out ahead + a diversion from fate

This might be viable. Tho this question still stands

Moreover what does "can defy normal causality" mean? So they are normally not Aca, but in a specific scenario they can become one?

But still, fate wasn't my main argument for base Shion

 

[sukuna171]

How tf am I supposed to know that?

This might be viable. Tho this question still stands

But still, fate wasn't my main argument for base Shion

upon obtaining sword logic a casual being becomes paracasual.