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Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

JJSliderman said:
There is Sonic outrunning casual attacks from the complete Time Eater, but that might be circular scaling admittedly.
Click to expand...
Hmmm it could work but then again they were casual and Eggman simply wanted to soften them up before landing a killing blow. That said the Wyvern escape feat I mentioned earlier could work for Sonic scaling as it doesn't have that problem since Wyvern wanted Sonic's broke homeless ass dead
 
Maybe Super doesn't boost specifically reaction speed? It boosts movement, but maybe reaction is mostly unchanged? I don't honestly know.
 
MysticMania said:
Maybe Super doesn't boost specifically reaction speed? It boosts movement, but maybe reaction is mostly unchanged? I don't honestly know.
Click to expand...
Nah, that just seems like trying to bust your head over trying to fix narrative issues Sonic Team presents with Base Sonic outrunning the Titans. I don't see how Super Sonic wouldn't grant him greater reaction speed when it's increasing all other statistical attributes.
 
Have they ever said what does Shadow do in his free time? We know what others do, Sonic travels, Eggman builds schemes, Tails works on his projects, Knux guards ME etc. But what does Shadow?

I kinda head canon that he also travels like Sonic, although he is more likely to take action if something opposes him. But I wonder if thats a bad read on his character.
 
TMaakkonen said:
Have they ever said what does Shadow do in his free time? We know what others do, Sonic travels, Eggman builds schemes, Tails works on his projects, Knux guards ME etc. But what does Shadow?

I kinda head canon that he also travels like Sonic, although he is more likely to take action if something opposes him. But I wonder if thats a bad read on his character.
Click to expand...
According to some places on twitter, he watches anime, reads manga, preforms maintenence on his vehicles and all the while drinks black coffee.
 
TMaakkonen said:
Have they ever said what does Shadow do in his free time? We know what others do, Sonic travels, Eggman builds schemes, Tails works on his projects, Knux guards ME etc. But what does Shadow?

I kinda head canon that he also travels like Sonic, although he is more likely to take action if something opposes him. But I wonder if thats a bad read on his character.
Click to expand...
He stands in a cliff brooding and aura farming like Piccolo.
 
JJSliderman said:
So, out of curiosity I checked back at Heroes, and power cores there work essentially as (for speed characters at least)

Level 0: 1 damage
Level 1: 2 damage
Level 2: 3 damage
Level 3: 4 damage

So, while 1 core does double the power of the user, 2 cores doesn’t quadruple it, just triple it, and 3 cores quadruples it.

So, not as impressive.

For power characters it’s sort of inconsistent, but it seems like their actual power doesn’t increase at all for the basic attacks with each core, rather the damage increases based on the level of the character used for the attack, and the damage for the power character themselves increases in their super move. And flight formation is similar.
Click to expand...
Calcing multipliers via damage points falls under game mechanics, not valid

We have a 2x statement anyway
 
Omegabronic said:
Calcing multipliers via damage points falls under game mechanics, not valid

We have a 2x statement anyway
Click to expand...
The 2x was specifically for one power core, never said that a second core doubles the doubling boost of the first core. In Heroes 1 core also doubles strength so nothing is contradicted here.
 
Omegabronic said:
Calcing multipliers via damage points falls under game mechanics, not valid

We have a 2x statement anyway
Click to expand...
We currently have the Boost as a 7.9x multiplier from the difference in SPD between Sonic without it compared to Sonic with it during gameplay in Sonic Unleashed so evidently we do not have a problem using gameplay mechanics.

Also Power Cores are not transformations so we don't have much of a reason to assume that their multipliers stack on top of eachother when the amp is specifically applied to the user not the other core and the mechanics of having several Power Cores at once is literally never explained.
 
TMaakkonen said:
Have they ever said what does Shadow do in his free time? We know what others do, Sonic travels, Eggman builds schemes, Tails works on his projects, Knux guards ME etc. But what does Shadow?

I kinda head canon that he also travels like Sonic, although he is more likely to take action if something opposes him. But I wonder if thats a bad read on his character.
Click to expand...
The_Axiom_of_Virgo said:
According to some places on twitter, he watches anime, reads manga, preforms maintenence on his vehicles and all the while drinks black coffee.
Click to expand...
From what I heard from the Twitter Takeovers, Shadow reads books to keep his mind sharp.

I also like to headcanon that Shadow that Shadow travels. Sometimes on business, sometimes for leisure. I can imagine he is always prepared to take down any threats that threaten the people of Earth. Other than that, I can see Shadow enjoying music and such. Him having a guitar collection (either autographed by famous musicians or ones he finds cool or rare) sounds cute. Shadow playing on the guitar to hone a different kind of skill. Other than that, I can see him being good at cooking. Imagery of him smoothly and swiftly brandishing a cooking knife and cutting ingredients into pieces in a blink of an eye with a cool expression on his face before sticking the knife into the cutting board with a sharp tap noise kinda goes hard.
 
Snek said:
We currently have the Boost as a 7.9x multiplier from the difference in SPD between Sonic without it compared to Sonic with it during gameplay in Sonic Unleashed so evidently we do not have a problem using gameplay mechanics.
Click to expand...
Several calc members signed off on it because the very metric that the SPD Meter uses is for speed, which we can thus draw a baseline metric when clocking what the Lightspeed Dash lands at. It's like, right at the edge of what's usable and that's only saved because it has to do with speed (one of the easier/easiest statistics to measure).

Health Points are notoriously unreliable for scaling in most instances though, which is some of the evidence that Power Cores were using until we axed HP usage.
 
ShakeResounding said:
Several calc members signed off on it because the very metric that the SPD Meter uses is for speed, which we can thus draw a baseline metric when clocking what the Lightspeed Dash lands at. It's like, right at the edge of what's usable and that's only saved because it has to do with speed (one of the easier/easiest statistics to measure).

Health Points are notoriously unreliable for scaling in most instances though, which is some of the evidence that Power Cores were using until we axed HP usage.
Click to expand...
My thing is that it was never established power cores stack their doubling effect on other power cores, and Heroes is one of the only instances where multiple cores are stacked on one character, and it doesn’t have a continuous doubling effect, but more just going from double to triple to quadruple.
 
JJSliderman said:
My thing is that it was never established power cores stack their doubling effect on other power cores, and Heroes is one of the only instances where multiple cores are stacked on one character, and it doesn’t have a continuous doubling effect, but more just going from double to triple to quadruple.
Click to expand...
I don't know why you're responding to me when I voiced no particular stance on the subject KEK.

I still think the 2x multiplier can be scaled and stacked for the Chaos Emeralds though, since their power together is clearly exponential, but that's just my opinion.
 
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You noted health points as being unreliable so it seemed like the best frame of reference to respond to, I kind of want to agree in that I feel super sonic is at least a 9 or 10x boost given the significant gap between 7 power cores (which would be 8x most likely) and 7 chaos emeralds, but it is kind of speculation ultimately
 
Yes, but at that point I would argue it's better to remove any multipliers from 2 power cores and up and just call it an unquantifiable increase, as there isn't any metric for how much stronger multiple power cores of the same type are besides Heroes.
 
Snek said:
We currently have the Boost as a 7.9x multiplier from the difference in SPD between Sonic without it compared to Sonic with it during gameplay in Sonic Unleashed so evidently we do not have a problem using gameplay mechanics.
Click to expand...
SPD is not a game mechanic? It is a in universe measure of speed... not comparable to Power Cores

Snek said:
Also Power Cores are not transformations so we don't have much of a reason to assume that their multipliers stack on top of eachother when the amp is specifically applied to the user not the other core and the mechanics of having several Power Cores at once is literally never explained.
Click to expand...
What happens if you multiply something twice, then twice again... you get 4x that innitial ammount... it is that simple
 
Lowkey I think I've mostly fallen into the hypertimeline insanity, I don't think Shadow stopping time in White Space can happen without it ngl 😭 🙏

Quick question tho and idk if I asked it before or not so sorry if I did, but does anyone know where this comes from? I've checked the Sonic X Shadow Generations website but no luck
VdPZ5rB.jpeg
 
Omegabronic said:
SPD is not a game mechanic? It is a in universe measure of speed... not comparable to Power Cores


What happens if you multiply something twice, then twice again... you get 4x that innitial ammount... it is that simple
Click to expand...
Did they ever say that the effect makes you 4x stronger with two cores? No.
 
Omegabronic said:
SPD is not a game mechanic? It is a in universe measure of speed... not comparable to Power Cores
Click to expand...
It is a measurement that only exists in gameplay as far as I'm aware which is the definition of a gameplay mechanic. Now that said, I don't mind it being used for the 11.4 C calc because it should be linear and the Light Speed Dash is canonically lightspeed, yet it only has a rating of 385 SPD (and I think I remember that being consistent from another game as well but I'm not certain). But I think extrapolating the Boost having a multiplier from the SPD meter is very very questionable when unlike the speed calc where there is a canon precident for the Light Speed Dash being lightspeed outside of gameplay, there is nothing at all that suggests that the Boost is a multiplier besides a gameplay coincidence from one game. So extrapolating the Boost having a multiplier from one instance where Sonic without it was [X SPD] while Sonic with it is [Y SPD] and then assuming that single gameplay example is proof that the Boost has that kind of multiplier across the whole series is just as arbitrary as measuring the ground a character covers in gameplay in a second before comparing it to how much ground they cover at max level in the same timeframe to say they got canonically 1.17 times faster, it's the same logic.
Omegabronic said:
What happens if you multiply something twice, then twice again... you get 4x that innitial ammount... it is that simple
Click to expand...
Power Cores, as Starline explained them, are just concentrated energy that syncs to a user.

So let me ask you this. If one core when boosting Zavok (1 Zavok) granted him 1 Zavok of energy for a total of a 2x boost (2 Zavok) why would a second Power Core then grant 2 Zavoks of power (total 4 Zavoks) while the first only granted one? What was the first clump of concentrated energy just holding out on it's user for no reason or do the second and third one's just have more energy to give than the first one not because of any explained mechanic but simply because the person using it happened to have another Power Core that they were already using?
 
ShakeResounding said:
Nah, that just seems like trying to bust your head over trying to fix narrative issues Sonic Team presents with Base Sonic outrunning the Titans. I don't see how Super Sonic wouldn't grant him greater reaction speed when it's increasing all other statistical attributes.
Click to expand...
I agree.
 
TheStinkeer said:
Lowkey I think I've mostly fallen into the hypertimeline insanity, I don't think Shadow stopping time in White Space can happen without it ngl 😭 🙏

Quick question tho and idk if I asked it before or not so sorry if I did, but does anyone know where this comes from? I've checked the Sonic X Shadow Generations website but no luck
VdPZ5rB.jpeg
Click to expand...

I don't know if this account is official or not, but, it did post this in February.
 
TheStinkeer said:
Lowkey I think I've mostly fallen into the hypertimeline insanity, I don't think Shadow stopping time in White Space can happen without it ngl 😭 🙏
Click to expand...
Actually hold on yknow how I've been talking about the space-time interception and how the lore pretty much demands there still be a flow of time there bc of Solaris existing in past, present, and future and the story making a big deal out of it? Would that add evidence to a hypertimeline in Sonic or nah?
 
I found something I didn't think I would on an IDW reread and there's no sugarcoating it, Clutch is a beast for absolutely no reason and it's a little insane.

Currently I'm trying to make my own Sonic profiles on the Charecters Stats and Profiles wiki so I am re-reading IDW to make note of calculable feats and Clutch, someone I never planned to make a profile for and assumed was just 10-B turned out to be a physical beast which I somehow missed on my first reading. Not paying attention to powerscaling changes quite a bit to say the least, anyways let's go down my personal "what the actual hell" feats from when I was actually paying attention to someone I thought was only a human level mob boss.

1. He smashes a metal console with a swing of his cane and flings two people trying to restrain him with raw strength, so 9-B off to a great start with killing my expectations. Issue #74.

2. Clutch physically grapples with the transformed Eggstreme Gear and isn't immediately overpowered, before he then proceeds to tank a slap from it that sent him flying. Issue #75

3. Clutch dodges a lunge from Surge and while she might have been playing around with him he also had a breif melee brawl with Sonic where both him and Sonic are portrayed with afterimages. Issue #75

4. Did I mention that in that breif scuffle with Sonic he also straight up blocked a homing attack with his cane. Issue #75

5. Surge with an attack that Kit stated was her pushing herself too hard zaps the transformed Eggstreme Gear and Sonic damaging both of them...but Clutch was hit too with the exact same attack and only got knocked out, 2-C Clutch is real and he might unironically be stronger than Rough and Tumble somehow. Issue #75

All and all I expected Clutch to be normal human level but it turns out he might solo a solid 80% of fiction through scaling to characters that he has no buissness even fighting and I'm not sure how to feel about that.
 
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JJSliderman said:
Did they ever say that the effect makes you 4x stronger with two cores? No.
Click to expand...
let's see
My power level is 1

I got a 2x multiplier... now my power level is 2

I got another 2x multiplier... now my power level is 4

That's like... basic math dude, what else do you think would happen when you multiply a base value 2 times in a row?

Snek said:
It is a measurement that only exists in gameplay as far as I'm aware which is the definition of a gameplay mechanic. Now that said, I don't mind it being used for the 11.4 C calc because it should be linear and the Light Speed Dash is canonically lightspeed, yet it only has a rating of 385 SPD (and I think I remember that being consistent from another game as well but I'm not certain). But I think extrapolating the Boost having a multiplier from the SPD meter is very very questionable when unlike the speed calc where there is a canon precident for the Light Speed Dash being lightspeed outside of gameplay, there is nothing at all that suggests that the Boost is a multiplier besides a gameplay coincidence from one game. So extrapolating the Boost having a multiplier from one instance where Sonic without it was [X SPD] while Sonic with it is [Y SPD] and then assuming that single gameplay example is proof that the Boost has that kind of multiplier across the whole series is just as arbitrary as measuring the ground a character covers in gameplay in a second before comparing it to how much ground they cover at max level in the same timeframe to say they got canonically 1.17 times faster, it's the same logic.
Click to expand...
Dude, we literally see how much faster Sonic is with it in comparison of with it... Shake explained it all the better so i won't even elaborate much here

Snek said:
Power Cores, as Starline explained them, are just concentrated energy that syncs to a user.
Click to expand...
Yes... said concentrated energy then multiplies the user's own strength by two

Snek said:
So let me ask you this. If one core when boosting Zavok (1 Zavok) granted him 1 Zavok of energy for a total of a 2x boost (2 Zavok) why would a second Power Core then grant 2 Zavoks of power (total 4 Zavoks) while the first only granted one? What was the first clump of concentrated energy just holding out on it's user for no reason or do the second and third one's just have more energy to give than the first one not because of any explained mechanic but simply because the person using it happened to have another Power Core that they were already using?
Click to expand...
You assume a power core multiplying strenght is only an addition when nothing says it? It is a multiplier, Starline says as much... the energy goes into you, and then your attributes are multiplied

By this Logic Adventure Sonic and co would be Modern Zavok level as apparently that's how much energy a Power Core has? Even tho... they grew stronger since then by leaps and bounds, and by now Zavok is still a threat that overpowers then? Your assumption not only makes no sense with what is actually said... but also creates circular scalling that is logically wrong... you are simply wrong in your interpretation of the Starline explanation, it isn't additive, it is multiplicative
 
Omegabronic said:
let's see
My power level is 1

I got a 2x multiplier... now my power level is 2

I got another 2x multiplier... now my power level is 4

That's like... basic math dude, what else do you think would happen when you multiply a base value 2 times in a row?
Click to expand...
Starline said one core can double your already immense strength to Zavok. Nothing more, there was no mention of Power Cores having any effect on eachother or on it even being a "multiplier" as the wiki defines it rather than an increase that would coincidentally correlate to a two times increase for Zavok in the same way (1 × 2) = (1 + 1) so the assumption that Power Cores aren't just multipliers but also actively stack on top of eachother as well is headcanon especially when Starline says absolutely nothing about what having multiple Power Cores does.
Omegabronic said:
Dude, we literally see how much faster Sonic is with it in comparison of with it... Shake explained it all the better so i won't even elaborate much here
Click to expand...
Firstly I'm not insane enough to calculate it, but I'm willing to bet that in gameplay Sonic isn't literally 7.9x faster using the boost than without it so no we are never shown how much faster Sonic is with the boost outside of purely the numbers registered by the SPD meter. Although even if I was wrong in that regard and the on screen gameplay miraculously did correlate with the SPD meter that doesn't change the fact that we extrapolated a multiplier from solely gameplay mechanics.

Which might I add is no less absurd than concluding that Super Sonic is canonically a 60x multiplier not because of any actual lore but because of the in game damage he does to the Titans in Sonic Frontiers when using his super form compared to the damage his base form does to Gaurdians. All that is to say that extrapolating multipliers from gameplay mechanics for techniques that are never stated or implied to be multipliers is absurd.
Omegabronic said:
Yes... said concentrated energy then multiplies the user's own strength by two


You assume a power core multiplying strenght is only an addition when nothing says it? It is a multiplier, Starline says as much... the energy goes into you, and then your attributes are multiplied
Click to expand...
Starline quote was one core can double "your" already immense strength. Besides saying nothing about what having several Power Cores does the amplification provided specifically applies to the user and it is illogical to assume from that statement alone that the second Power Core or the third will do anything more than power up the user independently of the other Cores.
Omegabronic said:
By this Logic Adventure Sonic and co would be Modern Zavok level as apparently that's how much energy a Power Core has? Even tho... they grew stronger since then by leaps and bounds, and by now Zavok is still a threat that overpowers then? Your assumption not only makes no sense with what is actually said... but also creates circular scalling that is logically wrong... you are simply wrong in your interpretation of the Starline explanation, it isn't additive, it is multiplicative
Click to expand...
Firstly Eggman updates his tech all the time so it isn't implausible to assume something similar has happened with Power Cores. Second I'm not proposing necessarily that they are strictly additive just that their multipliers shouldn't stack, and besides with either explanation how would 2-C power cores not create circular scaling by default - like oh yes Eggman needs to drain the Sol Emeralds to make his Egg Salamander that scales to half of a 12 universe feat, never-mind that he just has random Power Cores lying around that can greatly amplify characters that are rated higher than that. Third my explanation is the only one with internal logic and here's why by cross comparing our models with a consistency check.

Assumption 1 - Power Cores of the same type are equal to eachother in energy unless otherwise stated.

Assumption 2 - One red Power Core can double Zavoks strength.

Assumption 3 - Power Cores amplify their user specifically.

Your explanation: Zavok = 1, with 1 core = 2, with 2 cores = 4 and with 3 cores = 8.

VS assumption 1: It doesn't check out, the increases are only the same multiplicatively but otherwise Core three granting an increase of 4 grants far more than core two with an increase of 2 which grants more than core one with an increase of 1. Those gaps don't make sense with each Power Core having a finite supply of energy that is equal to eachother without unfounded headcanon.

VS assumption 2: True core one happens to double Zavoks strength.

VS assumption 3: Only sort of true. The Power Cores no doubt boost Zavok but they also boost eachother since Zavoks strength with one power core isn't solely his power the only way the overall power he's using can double again with a second core is if said core amplifies more than just Zavoks own strength.

My explanation: Zavok = 1, with one core = 2, with two cores = 3 and with three cores = 4 (Zavoks base strength doubles each time which adds +1 but the amps are separate).

VS assumption 1: It checks out each core grants the same amount of overall power as the first one did.

VS assumption 2: It also checks out one core does indeed bring Zavok from a 1 to a 2.

VS assumption 3: Also works, each core only doubles Zavoks base strength which happens to add +1 with each core as each amp works separately.
 
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