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Low 1-C Base Sonic characters

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Personally I'm a bit iffy on using Void directly for scaling Infinite, but I do agree if we look at Eggman's other mechs and weapons. Eggman in the intro cutscene stated that Infinite was his ultimate weapon and that his history of defeats would be returned a trillion times over. (Not literally meaning Infinite is trillions of times stronger, though.) This COULD refer to Void as well bc Eggman failed to get the Precioustone, but it's a bit too loose imo. That said I think we can reasonably use things like the Egg Wizard to scale Infinite as it directly falls under Eggman's defeats and is supported by the infamous statement and Base Sonic getting his ass kicked at the start of the game, which would pretty much be Void scaling anyways due to:

1. The English dub Eggman states that the Power of the stars is more power than he imagined was possible, which includes the Precioustone
2. The Egg Wizard took on a post-06 Super Sonic, who was also amped by teamwork if you believe teamwork amps are always present and not just in team attacks and such
3. In both the ENG and JP versions of Rush Adventure, iirc Eggman stated that the Chaos and Sol Emeralds are no match for the Egg Wizard and also says he doesn't even need the Master Emerald with the Phantom Ruby in that one Forces prequel comic if you count that

There's also this tweet which I don't think should be used as direct evidence because, well, it's a tweet. But I think it's a nice small support yk?
Image

I also believe Time Eater could also be used, even with the Ian Flynn clip that says TE and Dark Gaia are stronger as that's from BumbleKast which is simply Ian's opinion on the matter and even stated himself was an unofficial WOG. But yeah, that's just my opinion on the matter.
 
TheStinkeer said:
That said I think we can reasonably use things like the Egg Wizard to scale Infinite as it directly falls under Eggman's defeats and is supported by the infamous statement and Base Sonic getting his ass kicked at the start of the game
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That's less feasible than using Void scaling as the statement is in reference to Sonic. Not Super Sonic. Which SEGA is very consistently clear and distinct about.
 
Someone should probably close this thread... the main cast of Shuffle already scales to Void, it just isn't accepted here yet, and the game directly after calls the battles that happen in Sonic Adventure 2 to be the greatest in history.
 
LaserPrecision said:
That's less feasible than using Void scaling as the statement is in reference to Sonic. Not Super Sonic. Which SEGA is very consistently clear and distinct about.
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That would be contradicting the very intent of the statement. Infinite either is the ultimate weapon or the Egg Wizard is, you can't just nitpick which one he's talking about.
 
LaserPrecision said:
Asserting "ultimate weapon" equates to being the strongest. Another baseless assumption.
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How the hell is ultimate weapon not = strongest? what? We never treat that kinda stuff otherwise? It literally equals the best.

There is no way you're just gonna say that is a baseless assumption. The intent is VERY clear behind the word.
 
McFriesGuy075 said:
How the hell is ultimate weapon not = strongest? what? We never treat that kinda stuff otherwise? It literally equals the best.
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Best = Strongest. These are all assertions without evidence to serve as a basis. Best and Ultimate can be in reference to many things. Thus proof is required to tie it to any one of those interpretations. Just because it seems obvious to you means your interpretation is correct. That would just be an argument from incredulity. And there are many mechs Eggman has created touted as the "ultimate weapon" that we don't treat as his strongest invention yet throughout the series. That is something you guessed wrong about.
 
LaserPrecision said:
Best = Strongest. These are all assertions without evidence to serve as a basis. Best and Ultimate can be in reference to many things. Thus proof is required to tie it to any one of those interpretations. Just because it seems obvious to you means your interpretation is correct. That would just be an argument from incredulity. And there are many mechs Eggman has created touted as the "ultimate weapon" that we don't treat as his strongest invention yet throughout the series. That is something you guessed wrong about.
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The most common meaning to ultimate weapon is the most powerful. What are you even getting at?
 
LaserPrecision said:
And there are many mechs Eggman has created touted as the "ultimate weapon" that we don't treat as his strongest invention yet throughout the series.
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Hmmm I think Infinite has a lot of backing for proof he can be reasonably interpreted as the strongest, imo. He's the main antagonist during the game and low-diffed Base Sonic at the start. And even after Sonic powered up Infinite still managed to defeat him. The phantom ruby created Null Space, had to be defeated with the power of friendship, Tails theorized that Eggman's mysterious power (likely the phantom Ruby in this context) was breaking the boundaries between dimensions (though, in context it probably is just him theroizing due to Classic Sonic coming from Mania, so ignore this if you want.) + The Phantom Ruby was a Super Sonic threat in Mania
 
McFriesGuy075 said:
The most common meaning to ultimate weapon is the most powerful. What are you even getting at?
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And powerful doesn't refer to strongest. Do you know the difference between powerful and strong? You are completely ignoring context and trying to interpret this in the way you clearly desire as you have your own personal scaling it appeals to.
TheStinkeer said:
Hmmm I think Infinite has a lot of backing for proof he can be reasonably interpreted as the strongest, imo. He's the main antagonist during the game and low-diffed Base Sonic at the start. And even after Sonic powered up Infinite still managed to defeat him. The phantom ruby created Null Space, had to be defeated with the power of friendship, Tails theorized that Eggman's mysterious power (likely the phantom Ruby in this context) was breaking the boundaries between dimensions (though, in context it probably is just him theroizing due to Classic Sonic coming from Mania, so ignore this if you want.) + The Phantom Ruby was a Super Sonic threat in Mania
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I think he's the strongest enemy Sonic has ever fought, yes. Not the strongest Super Sonic has ever fought though. The quote states Sonic rather than Super Sonic.

The Ruby used in Mania Is different from what Infinite used. Infinite used a prototype, and Eggman used the real deal at the end of the game which dwarfed Infinite's power.
 
LaserPrecision said:
And powerful doesn't refer to strongest. Do you know the difference between powerful and strong? You are completely ignoring context and trying to interpret this in the way you clearly desire as you have your own personal scaling it appeals to.
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So what? Power can refer to AP, but not LS. Strength refers to both.
 
McFriesGuy075 said:
So what? Power can refer to AP, but not LS. Strength refers to both.
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No. Power can refer to MANY things besides AP. I could say the president is the most powerful person in the country. That doesn't mean he's stronger than Mike Tyson. Powerful is very context based.

Strength can also refer to things besides physical strength, though it is more easy to prove at least.
 
LaserPrecision said:
No. Power can refer to MANY things besides AP. I could say the president is the most powerful person in the country. That doesn't mean he's stronger than Mike Tyson. Powerful is very context based.
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It CAN refer to many things beside AP, but that suddenly doesn't exclude it from applying to AP, we are talking about WEAPONS here, not positions of power.
 
LaserPrecision said:
No. Power can refer to MANY things besides AP. I could say the president is the most powerful person in the country. That doesn't mean he's stronger than Mike Tyson. Powerful is very context based.

Strength can also refer to things besides physical strength, though it is more easy to prove at least.
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yeah and in this context its referring to AP obviously
 
LaserPrecision said:
The Ruby used in Mania Is different from what Infinite used. Infinite used a prototype, and Eggman used the real deal at the end of the game which dwarfed Infinite's power.
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Yea mb I mostly forgot while typing and quickly fact checked, tho then again we do have Sonic damaging the DER before the team attack, though you can reasonably say it was still a teamwork amp. And the prototypes certainly weren't weak by any means

But still, I think given what was shown and what was stated it's not a stretch to say it can likely also group in Super Sonic given Super Sonic is still Sonic and Eggman's speech would group in his defeats by Super Sonic, but yea I think it's fair to say otherwise 👍
 
TheStinkeer said:
Yea mb I mostly forgot while typing and quickly fact checked, tho then again we do have Sonic damaging the DER before the team attack, though you can reasonably say it was still a teamwork amp. And the prototypes certainly weren't weak by any means
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I don't believe in teamwork amps in Sonic. I think people use that as an agenda to explain away any feats that go beyond their personal scaling. So you don't need to worry about me bringing it up. I think DER is above the the boss in Sonic Mania since he was overclocking its power, but I don't think Super Sonic is anything beyond 2-C at that point. But that's for another time. Not going to argue that here.
 
LaserPrecision said:
I don't believe in teamwork amps in Sonic. I think people use that as an agenda to explain away any feats that go beyond their personal scaling.
Click to expand...
See I wouldn't entirely believe it either if TSR didn't have a plot about the energies of teamwork. So my two conclusions are teamwork amps mainly happen during team based techniques and attacks like the Team Blast in Sonic Heroes or the Double/Triple Boost of Forces, or they always amp the characters. I believe in the former explanation but I'll try to look at the occam's razor side of things just in case a future game says that.
 
TheStinkeer said:
See I wouldn't entirely believe it either if TSR didn't have a plot about the energies of teamwork. So my two conclusions are teamwork amps mainly happen during team based techniques and attacks like the Team Blast in Sonic Heroes or the Double/Triple Boost of Forces, or they always amp the characters. I believe in the former explanation but I'll try to look at the occam's razor side of things just in case a future game says that.
Click to expand...
I just see those all as them combining their power for one move. Not an amp magically increasing all their strengths. I have a translation of the Team Blast for Heroes that just says the move is the combined force of all three members in the team from building up their energy guage.

So sure, team moves that explicitly require you to combine your stuff for an increase are fine. But I don't think Sonic is passively getting an amp whenever he's near his friends.
 
LaserPrecision said:
I just see those all as them combining their power for one move. Not an amp magically increasing all their strengths. I have a translation of the Team Blast for Heroes that just says the move is the combined force of all three members in the team from building up their energy guage.
Click to expand...
Actually yeah I saw that translation yesterday on Twitter, this one right?
Image
 
LaserPrecision said:
It is the ultimate indiscriminate destruction mecha. Which gives it an entirely new meaning.
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What is it supposed to change? Why would it separate that from the others?

God, It's like the more I try to understand how we treat stuff here, the even less I understand. I doubt we were THIS strict on statements.
 
McFriesGuy075 said:
What is it supposed to change? Why would it separate that from the others?

God, It's like the more I try to understand how we treat stuff here, the even less I understand. I doubt we were THIS strict on statements.
Click to expand...
I can tell you elsewhere if you want.

Yes, we should be this strict on statements, because then you can heavily inflate a verse. Especially Sonic, where "ultimate weapon" is spammed and thrown around in almost every single game that exists. And you wind up with a verse with ratings wildly inconsistent with the narrative and feats. And relies solely on statements rather than feats and scaling from people with feats. It gets obnoxious, and it's what I see used most outside of the community to get Sonic to absurd ratings. We need to show more scrutiny with statements in a series. Especially when we're talking about a verse at the level that it's at.
 
I def agree statements like that should be met with some form of scrutiny, iirc the 06 bosses were once used for a 2-C 06 Base Sonic because of a similar statement once in the past. which I disagreed with using as it felt a little too silly. I also took issue with a few other promotional statements like the "endless worlds" Crossworlds promotional statement being used for multi+. though I do still believe Infinite qualifies for being a valid use of the "ultimate weapon" statement if that's how you want to interpret it due to most of my above reasonings earlier in the thread
 
TheStinkeer said:
I def agree statements like that should be met with some form of scrutiny, iirc the 06 bosses were once used for a 2-C 06 Base Sonic because of a similar statement once in the past. which I disagreed with using as it felt a little too silly. I also took issue with a few other promotional statements like the "endless worlds" Crossworlds promotional statement being used for multi+. though I do still believe Infinite qualifies for being a valid use of the "ultimate weapon" statement if that's how you want to interpret it due to most of my above reasonings earlier in the thread
Click to expand...
Alr now that I had a little more time to think, I'll try and just do one of those closing words and that'll be my final contribution to the thread, srry for another notif on it!

For the "Most powerful enemy statement," I don't believe Super Sonic needs to be specified as Super Sonic still falls under the umbrella of Sonic. However, it's understandable to look at this as purely a hype statement. So we'll look at the game instead, where Eggman says Infinite will be his ultimate weapon and he will return his history of defeats to Sonic a trillion times over. It's also important to note that the characters in-universe don't always refer to Sonic as Super Sonic when he's super. It happens, yes, but not all the time. Now another important thing to note is the Phantom Ruby itself and its own power. As LaserPrecision pointed out earlier, something doesn't need to be pure power in order to be considered an ultimate weapon.

But in the opening of the game, we can see Infinite was able to nearly effortlessly defeat Sonic after a few attacks, where Sonic could at least land a few hits on the Phantom Ruby's Shadow, Chaos, Zavok, and Metal. This is similar to when the Time Eater simply swatted Sonic away. Even after Sonic grew in power, Infinite still managed to win. Sonic's growth in power is important to note as he has shown to surpass or at bare minimum equal his Super form due to his fight against Perfect Chaos in Generations, where he battled Perfect Chaos without the use of the Chaos Emeralds and even won in less hits. And while the goals of each were different (Super Sonic wanted to purify Chaos) it also doesn't mean there wasn't a fight that Super Sonic had to win by defeating Chaos. We also have to look at Infinite prior to receiving the Phantom Ruby, having gotten defeated by Shadow with little to no effort. All this considered, Infinite's power doesn't seem to be limited to just the reality warping properties of the Phantom Ruby prototype.

And aside from all of that, the Death Egg Robot uses the real Phantom Ruby, which surpassed Infinite and was a Super Sonic threat in Mania, with Eggman "overclocking" it, with it being said no conventional weapon can damage it and that the Sonics and the Rookie being the only hope. We also know the Phantom Ruby could create Null Space, an infinite void of nothingness separated from all dimensions (possibly even the dimensions of space and time.)

Either way, that's about all I wanted to say on it and my viewpoint on it. I'm not expecting any upgrades ofc
 
Is the statement even true it references Zavok, Metal Sonic, and Chaos as if they are actually part of the conflict. Hell, do they even have a proper lead up like described? If I am not mistaken this is an ad telling you the player why you should get the game with the implication that you get to fight Eggman, Zavok, Metal Sonic, and Chaos leading up to a fight with Infinite. You have a cutscene where fake Chaos is defeated, fight fake Zavok, then Infinite for the first time, real Dr. Eggman, Infinite again, fake Metal Sonic, Infinite again again, then Dr. Eggman. The statement seems full of half truths as part of a hype up advertisement. I don't think it make sense to take that statement alone as proof of his superiority.
 
Lou_change said:
Is the statement even true it references Zavok, Metal Sonic, and Chaos as if they are actually part of the conflict. Hell, do they even have a proper lead up like described? If I am not mistaken this is an ad telling you the player why you should get the game with the implication that you get to fight Eggman, Zavok, Metal Sonic, and Chaos leading up to a fight with Infinite. You have a cutscene where fake Chaos is defeated, fight fake Zavok, then Infinite for the first time, real Dr. Eggman, Infinite again, fake Metal Sonic, Infinite again again, then Dr. Eggman. The statement seems full of half truths as part of a hype up advertisement. I don't think it make sense to take that statement alone as proof of his superiority.
Click to expand...
I agree that relying solely on the website statement is a bad idea, that's why I went on to point out other things in-game that support it referencing more than just them and extra proof of Infinite's strength. My opinion is that Infinite > Eggman's past mechs and weapons as it lines up with the context in-game and the statement adds extra support
 
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