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The Godhead/Amaranth (The Elder Scrolls) Rework

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Deonment said:
And that isn't what I'm saying either, the people I mentioned are the ones who attained Amaranth, this isn't a matter of giving everyone 0, this is a matter of giving the key to the people who actually attained Amaranth, and thus are relevantly 0.

2 profiles, that'll eventually cap at 3, and that's it.

To not give them profiles would be like not giving characters, in a verse based upon Buddhism, a tier 0 key after they attain Nirvana, and instead creating a page for Nirvana. It's bad indexing and just wrong based on the source material itself.
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That would clog up the 0 section and there's a good reason why we don't have more than one 0 per verse.

Amaranth is a fictional representation of a board context mainly in its theology, but that's hardly a “bad index.” I already created a 0 profile as well, and it is also a state in that can be reached, by your token of logic everyone should have a 0 key for already being that entity:

vsbattles.fandom.com

Divine Creator (Marvel Comics)

In the J.M. DeMatteis version of the Marvel Comics cosmology, the Divine Creator is God hirself dreaming of all existence in the timeless sea of nothingness for aeons. A divine being that radiaities love at the core of Creation and every being in Creation connected to the infinity that sprung...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

The reason why we have two Lovecraft 0 characters is obviously because no one has moved with a CRT on who is the supreme in that verse. Obviously, the hardened scalers support Yog getting that position, but the reason why he doesn't require a “Supreme Archetype” profile is because he “IS” the Supreme Archetype. That's an example of a non-needed profile for explaining 0. The rest are independent Monads as opposed to cosmology based on illusions and True Reality and last I recall, they don't require more than one profile. ANU can have it, but the rest cannot because it’s redundant, and a page for the Godhead explaining it is an achievable state covers that they can reach it, it does not need a key as in a trait that they acquired because the page would explain that all else is “false” except the Godhead.

Obviously, that's not really a key thing to index outside of one example, that example will set the precedence, and the rest follows in the Godhead page. Regardless, I prefer ANU not to have the “0” key, and it refers to just a Godhead page for Elder Scrolls explanation of a 0 being.



Deonment said:
Anu is God, yes, but he isn't the only one to have achieved Amaranth; we know this directly and explicitly.
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Yeah, that's why the page should be its own thing, so ANU isn't the only exclusive to achieving that. We don't need multiple profile of 0 from the same verse.
Deonment said:
I will repeat, I am not saying everyone should get a tier 0 key, I am saying Anu, Vivec, and Jubal-La-Sun (when the profile gets made) will get the key, nobody else.
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That doesn't help your case.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
That would clog up the 0 section and there's a good reason why we don't have more than one 0 per verse.

Amaranth is a fictional representation of a board context mainly in its theology, but that's hardly a “bad index.” I already created a 0 profile as well, and it is also a state in that can be reached, by your token of logic everyone should have a 0 key for already being that entity:

vsbattles.fandom.com

Divine Creator (Marvel Comics)

In the J.M. DeMatteis version of the Marvel Comics cosmology, the Divine Creator is God hirself dreaming of all existence in the timeless sea of nothingness for aeons. A divine being that radiaities love at the core of Creation and every being in Creation connected to the infinity that sprung...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
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Clogging up the tier 0 section is not a valid argument against them having tier 0 keys, if the key is notable enough and it qualifies, then they get 0

Once again, I am not saying everyone should get it, you are misreading what I am saying, just because everyone can attain it does not mean everyone has. Once again, see the Buddhism-based verse example, while everyone already "is" in the tier 0 state, only a few have actually come to the realization/enlightenment that they are said entity and fully return to it.
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
The reason why we have two Lovecraft 0 characters is obviously because no one has moved with a CRT on who is the supreme in that verse. Obviously, the hardened scalers support Yog getting that position, but the reason why he doesn't require a “Supreme Archetype” profile is because he “IS” the Supreme Archetype. That's an example of a non-needed profile for explaining 0. The rest are independent Monads as opposed to cosmology based on illusions and True Reality and last I recall, they don't require more than one profile. ANU can have it, but the rest cannot because it’s redundant, and a page for the Godhead explaining it is an achievable state covers that they can reach it, it does not need a key as in a trait that they acquired because the page would explain that all else is “false” except the Godhead.
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False, this isn't a matter of them having the possibility of reaching it, or different characters being an expression of the tier 0. This is a character literally and explicitly attaining the same state as ANU and creating a new dream as a result. That's where the Loveletter is from, from the New Dream of the Nu-Men, it makes no sense to try and limit the key to ANU when other characters explicitly subsume him as the active Godhead.
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
Yeah, that's why the page should be its own thing, so ANU isn't the only exclusive to achieving that. We don't need multiple profile of 0 from the same verse.
Click to expand...
No, because you then exclude the fact that the character has reached it from their own profile and move it over to some other profile, which is wrong.

We do not make pages for transformations or state changes alone and then remove the change from the profile itself, Aaron's page has the explicit name of god on it, despite it giving him a state and powers equal to God. That the power is not 0 doesn't matter for my point, nor does it matter for our standards, we index by both the capabilities of the character based on what they have done within the source material. Vivec and Jubal attained Amaranth and became the Nu-Man, and thus they shall have a key based on that fact, that the key is tier 0 does not matter.
 
Yeah, like Deonment said, we only list character already achieved tier 0 in the verse, such as ANU, we don't list every character who potentially can achieve tier 0
 
Deonment said:
Clogging up the tier 0 section is not a valid argument against them having tier 0 keys, if the key is notable enough and it qualifies, then they get 0

Once again, I am not saying everyone should get it, you are misreading what I am saying, just because everyone can attain it does not mean everyone has. Once again, see the Buddhism-based verse example, while everyone already "is" in the tier 0 state, only a few have actually come to the realization/enlightenment that they are said entity and fully return to it.

False, this isn't a matter of them having the possibility of reaching it, or different characters being an expression of the tier 0. This is a character literally and explicitly attaining the same state as ANU and creating a new dream as a result. That's where the Loveletter is from, from the New Dream of the Nu-Men, it makes no sense to try and limit the key to ANU when other characters explicitly subsume him as the active Godhead.

No, because you then exclude the fact that the character has reached it from their own profile and move it over to some other profile, which is wrong.

We do not make pages for transformations or state changes alone and then remove the change from the profile itself, Aaron's page has the explicit name of god on it, despite it giving him a state and powers equal to God. That the power is not 0 doesn't matter for my point, nor does it matter for our standards, we index by both the capabilities of the character based on what they have done within the source material. Vivec and Jubal attained Amaranth and became the Nu-Man, and thus they shall have a key based on that fact, that the key is tier 0 does not matter.
Click to expand...
Vietthai96 said:
Yeah, like Deonment said, we only list character already achieved tier 0 in the verse, such as ANU, we don't list every character who potentially can achieve tier 0
Click to expand...
Alright, I suppose it isn't that bad then. I reckon it needs more mods input.
 
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Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1; All of existence came from the Godhead/Amaranth itself)
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The justification used is insufficient for Concept Manip. That being said, Type 1 concepts indeed exist in the verse, so you should reword the justification to include them. So, something like this: "Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1; All of existence came from the Godhead/Amaranth itself, which includes platonic ideals)"

Acausality (Type 5; The Godhead is the all-being and is completely un-erased)
Click to expand...

You should also add that he is the Eternal "I".

Transduality (Type 3; The Godhead transcends everything and all of AE which is Being-ness, and is beyond the last bridge of all existence which is the Last Existence and the Eternal 'I')
Click to expand...

Not really seeing Type 3 from this. Only Type 2, especially since Vivec's page has the Godhead's oneness as being Type 2.

The rest looks fine to me.
 
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
The justification used is insufficient for Concept Manip. That being said, Type 1 concepts indeed exist in the verse, so you should reword the justification to include them. So, something like this: "Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1; All of existence came from the Godhead/Amaranth itself, which includes platonic ideals)"



You should also add that he is the Eternal "I".



Not really seeing Type 3 from this. Only Type 2, especially since Vivec's page has the Godhead's oneness as being Type 2.

The rest looks fine to me.
Click to expand...
Done
 
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
Not really seeing Type 3 from this. Only Type 2, especially since Vivec's page has the Godhead's oneness as being Type 2.

The rest looks fine to me.
Click to expand...
That's cause it's missing a couple of things
Firstly, the state reached by attaining The Tower brings one back to the first brush of Anu and Padomay, back to the states of the original Et'eda, whom Anuiel and Sithis transcend, in addition to their natures, with the former being without differentation, and the latter being limitations that make the one the many (to quote from the Monomyth)
Anu encompassed, and encompasses, all things. So that he might know himself he created Anuiel, his soul and the soul of all things. Anuiel, as all souls, was given to self-reflection, and for this he needed to differentiate between his forms, attributes, and intellects. Thus was born Sithis, who was the sum of all the limitations Anuiel would utilize to ponder himself. Anuiel, who was the soul of all things, therefore became many things, and this interplay was and is the Aurbis.
Click to expand...
This is in addition to the fact that The Tower (which is used to reach CHIM) extends and the endless recursion of wheels only extends into the Eye of Anui-el
A single Wheel? More like a Telescope that stretches all the way back to the Eye of the Anui-El, with Padomaics innumerable along its infinite walls.
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Beyond this are Anu and Padomay, for whom Anui-el and Sithis are subgradients of, being "souls" of these unpersonable unconscious concepts, Anu is IS, Padomay is IS-NOT, Change vs Stasis, so on and so forth
Beyond this is then AE, which is a bunch of things but can be best described as existence, the second to first subgradient which encompasses all the things above
And then there is the Void, which as the name implies, is a nonexistence emptiness that lacks all of the above, being split by AE to produce Anu and Padomay
Quoting the Loveletter
All creation is subgradient. First was Void, which became split by AE. Anu and Padomay came next and with their first brush came the Aurbis.

Void to Aurbis: naught to pattern.
Click to expand...
And beyond this is the Godhead, whose nature has been elaborated upon in this thread a lot
tldr;
Spirits of the Et'eda/CHIMsters<Anuiel/Sithis<Anu/Padomay<AE<Void<Godhead/Dreamer
 
Re5yh said:
That's pretty new to the verse cosmology
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Not exactly, I quoted stuff from the Monomyth, MK statements, and the Fifth letter, and the stuff I didn't quote is just general stuff about Anu and Padomay
The only thing that are really new to the current verse cosmology is the Void and AE stuff, but beyond that the rest is already accepted
 
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
This is more like Probability Manipulation than causality.
Click to expand...
I mean, this isn't even correct
The Void is separate from The Dreamer, The Void is the first subgradient of creation (though that may be a misnomer to some degree, but it is what it is)

(In addition to that, the specific passage is mostly referring to Aka (Who is the soul of Anuiel who is the soul of Anu), with the transcription becoming impossible mostly due to the rapid "ascension" of the moth priest, and thus changed to the more primal langauge of creation, which is Tonal/Song in nature)

None of it really can be ascribed to the dreamer in the same way you wouldn't give him Time and Space manip for creating Aka and Lorkhan
 
Deonment said:
And that isn't what I'm saying either, the people I mentioned are the ones who attained Amaranth, this isn't a matter of giving everyone 0, this is a matter of giving the key to the people who actually attained Amaranth, and thus are relevantly 0.

2 profiles, that'll eventually cap at 3, and that's it.
Click to expand...
I’m pretty sure it’s possible to do this, you’d just need to make sure the 0 key on the other profile refers to and entirely replicates the justifications on the verses tier 0 profile.
 
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