The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread

[Eseseso]

Power-scaling for far more coherent verses with a single author is not remotely the same as stacking the highly contradictory perceptions of several hundreds of authors on top of each other for the most maximised and exaggerated results possible, and I am constantly busy taking care of most of the maintenance for our wiki, so it does not collapse. My available time for engaging with your revisions is very limited.

To be fair, the scope of Marvel cosmology being this large has been portrayed by multiple authors:

https://topstrongest.fandom.com/wiki/Marvel_Cosmology

 

[Antvasima]

My impression is that their different interpretations have been stacked on top of each other.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Power-scaling for far more coherent verses with a single author is not remotely the same as stacking the highly contradictory perceptions of several hundreds of authors on top of each other for the most maximised and exaggerated results possible, and I am constantly busy taking care of most of the maintenance for our wiki, so it does not collapse. My available time for engaging with your revisions is very limited.

That's not up for you to decide because you see it to fit this narrative about “carefully scaling” things. That's up to major consensus. In spite of everything else, if your time is limited then that's not excusable for you to randomly throw your crude remarks at my ratings or suggestions.

I would much prefer to wait for Elizio33, Impress, or somebody else who I find more balanced to handle it.

Firstly, I already did everything for DeMatteis, it’s already finished and I doubt you'll find someone more knowledgeable in that area.

Secondly, as I recall, the ratings before the split were much higher even compared to my latest suggestion.

The hell is “balanced?” That’s not their expertise, it’s either Ultima that I can accept or I can easily do it myself.

You again assert some random nonsense.

 

[Antvasima]

Balanced means that I trust them to be careful and not stack all cosmologies on top of each other or completely exaggerate regular superheroes to High 1-A without considering all of the counterpoint antifeats and general levels.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Balanced means that I trust them to be careful and not stack all cosmologies on top of each other or completely exaggerate regular superheroes to High 1-A without considering all of the counterpoint antifeats and general levels.

I don't recall:

A. They doing that work.
B. You being the end-all of arguments to suggest this.
C. Actually tackling the point’s I’ve made.

I, rather, not see anyone besides Ultima. As for the supheores jargon, I hadn't even gotten into that. You handwaved it after some small mentions of it. If you had given it time and more appeasement to actually listen perhaps something could have been.

There will be anti-feats we cannot fully address even when the proposal from all other angles are good. You're just being dense and stubborn about how chain-scaling works.

 

[Hayato5652]

Balanced means that I trust them to be careful and not stack all cosmologies on top of each other or completely exaggerate regular superheroes to High 1-A without considering all of the counterpoint antifeats and general levels.

If I remember correctly, Ultima made a CRT stating that a character only qualifies for Tier 1-A if they possess BDE Type 2 (currently known as BDE Type 3)

I don’t understand why 90% of Marvel comic heroes are listed as Low 1-C or 1-A without having BDE Type 3

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

If I remember correctly, Ultima made a CRT stating that a character only qualifies for Tier 1-A if they possess BDE Type 2 (currently known as BDE Type 3)

I don’t understand why 90% of Marvel comic heroes are listed as Low 1-C or 1-A without having BDE Type 3

In due time, if someone can handle some characters being 1-A with BDE Type 2 and 3.

 

[Excellence616]

Balanced means that I trust them to be careful and not stack all cosmologies on top of each other or completely exaggerate regular superheroes to High 1-A without considering all of the counterpoint antifeats and general levels.

Which of the regular heroes are 1-A expect Thor, Hulk, Storm and Hercules who each scale for their different reasons?

These said heroes aren't even regular. We have Thor who can fight Elder Gods, his connection with the Phenix Force, etc, Hercules is a God and Hulk is like weapon for Marvel Highest Ranking Devil. Even at that, they might likely get downgraded to Low 1-A.

 

[Antvasima]

I, rather, not see anyone besides Ultima.

As far as I am aware, Ultima considers you relentlessly unreasonable and time-wasting, so that currently seems unlikely.

 

[Antvasima]

Which of the regular heroes are 1-A expect Thor, Hulk, Storm and Hercules who each scale for their different reasons?

See here please:

Antvasima/DPL

vsbattles.fandom.com

These said heroes aren't even regular. We have Thor who can fight Elder Gods, his connection with the Phenix Force, etc, Hercules is a God and Hulk is like weapon for Marvel Highest Ranking Devil. Even at that, they might likely get downgraded to Low 1-A.

That would at least be better than their current tiers I suppose, but it still doesn't seem to fit at all with their general portrayals.

 

[Hayato5652]

Which of the regular heroes are 1-A expect Thor, Hulk, Storm and Hercules who each scale for their different reasons?

If I remember correctly... a few of Iron Man’s armors... and Moon Knight’s ...

I don’t know… it feels a bit illogical to me

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

As far as I am aware, Ultima considers you relentlessly unreasonable and time-wasting, so that currently seems unlikely.

Like I said prior he always been like that. He clearly likes to focus on the threads on his own. Our discussion about Unsong didn't help and we had some arguing, but your point on that admission is baseless since you don't have context of the conversation. Again, you're adding nothing by saying this, he can come at his own convenience to address these cosmological issue.

 

[Antvasima]

From what I recall, he told me that in a private message where I asked him to comment in a few of your revision threads several months ago.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

If I remember correctly, Ultima made a CRT stating that a character only qualifies for Tier 1-A if they possess BDE Type 2 (currently known as BDE Type 3)

Nope, they don’t. There’s a distinction between a character’s level of existence and their level of power. A character can be 1-A simply by possessing 1-A power without having 1-A existence (BDE 3).

Omnipotence

Omnipotence, in its most common composition, is defined as the ability do to all things. It is usually accompanied by other attributes – Omnipresence and Omniscience. In more analytic terms, Omnipotence might be formulated as "X is Omnipotent iff, should X will a certain state-of-affairs Y, Y...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

From what I recall, he told me that in a private message where I asked him to comment in a few of your revision threads several months ago.

If I recall, you didn't want it to conclude until Ultima appeared, which he did then disappeared. So, by this logic, the thread was never going to conclude then.

Is there some sort of law of unexcluded middle I'm missing here? Your points are counterintuitive.

 

[Excellence616]

If I remember correctly... a few of Iron Man’s armors... and Moon Knight’s ...

I don’t know… it feels a bit illogical to me

Armors made from 1-A beings or power and Moon Knight is 1-A via Khonshu's power

See here please:

Antvasima/DPL

vsbattles.fandom.com

Characters on that list are either Hellords, Skyfathers, Abstracts, Powerful Magic Users, Gag Characters, regular characters that once had cosmic powers bestowed upon, reality warpers and Telepaths like Franklin Richards and Xavier, characters using 1-A weapons, 1-A with prep time.

Like i said those characters are not 1-A out of the nowhere.

but it still doesn't seem to fit at all with their general portrayals.

If you wanna go with General Portrayals, we will end up slapping varies on most characters.

 

[Jimmy.robinson.5099]

Update on the Ultimate Universe for those interested:

Marvel Announces Their Ultimate Universe Will End In April 2026

Marvel Comics announces at New York Comic Con that their Ultimate Universe will end in April 2026

bleedingcool.com

 

[Antvasima]

If I recall, you didn't want it to conclude until Ultima appeared, which he did then disappeared. So, by this logic, the thread was never going to conclude then.

Is there some sort of law of unexcluded middle I'm missing here? Your points are counterintuitive.

From what I recall, he told me later than that.

 

[Antvasima]

If you wanna go with General Portrayals, we will end up slapping varies on most characters.

I honestly think that would be far less of a headache than what we currently do.

 

[GeneralSol16]

You're just being dense and stubborn about how chain-scaling works.

You gotta be kidding right there.

You guys are who always try to scale chain everyone to everything, even if narratively isn't consistent with how the writer, story, verse or hierarchy treats the character. Just because they did something a number of times doesn't mean he or she is capable of doing it at all. As contradictory as it sounds.

 

[Antvasima]

You guys are who always try to scale chain everyone to everything, even if narratively isn't consistent with how the writer, story, verse or hierarchy treats the character.

I also agree more with that type of interpretation, yes.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

You gotta be kidding right there.

You guys are who always try to scale chain everyone to everything, even if narratively isn't consistent with how the writer, story, verse or hierarchy treats the character. Just because they did something a number of times doesn't mean he or she is capable of doing it at all. As contradictory as it sounds.

“Just because they did something a number of times doesn't mean he or she is capable of doing it at all.”

Yeah, that sums up your argument being fallacious.

 

[Antvasima]

You gotta be kidding right there.

You guys are who always try to scale chain everyone to everything, even if narratively isn't consistent with how the writer, story, verse or hierarchy treats the character.

This is the part that you should focus on.

 

[GeneralSol16]

“Just because they did something a number of times doesn't mean he or she is capable of doing it at all.”

Yeah, that sums up your argument being fallacious.

Lmao.
If you're expecting that just because, let's say, Thor, has a number of "I can harm this guy" feats, he's at the same level as that character, you're the one who's wrong.

Have you ever considered how THAT specific writer handled that specific character in his run? His intentionality is even compatible / consistent with how the writer that made that other character have a Tier 1 feat handled that character or place? We are forgetting how these verses work, Marvel and DC have more authors in one year than any other verses in its entire existence.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Who's excited for Infinity Roar?

 

[AcidSilver]

So there's just some regular ass plants that can make it impossible for Symbiotes to bond with people? And it can also kill them?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

 

[MrKerf]

Balanced means that I trust them to be careful and not stack all cosmologies on top of each other or completely exaggerate regular superheroes to High 1-A without considering all of the counterpoint antifeats and general levels.

My next character has 1-A power…

Marvel really wants to include Goji everywhere these days, huh?

 

[AcidSilver]

What is it with Marvel constantly writing books where all their characters get shit stomped by a character from another franchise? Godzilla is an obvious one but we also had Predators kill everyone and then there was the Alien crossover where Earth fell to Xenomorphs despite the fact that the Brood are literally the Xenomorphs but better and they are consistently beaten back. DC never does this with their characters.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Magik stile scaling to MHS+ how long as it been that was taken out?

Magik (Marvel Comics)

Magik (Illyana Nikolievna Rasputina - typically anglicized to Rasputin) is a fictional superhero appearing in comic books published by Marvel Comics, most often in relation to the X-Men. She first appeared in the comic book, Giant-Size X-Men #1 (May 1975). Magik is the younger sister of the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[PandaCooler]

Mate, her profile still says that she can't harm nonmagical beings with her Soul Sword. That hasn't been true for over a decade now.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Mate, her profile still says that she can't harm nonmagical beings with her Soul Sword. That hasn't been true for over a decade now.

Its different, the MHS+ still there is because someone messed up the revision, the part you are talking about is because no one updated her profile.

 

[Eseseso]

Magik stile scaling to MHS+ how long as it been that was taken out?

Magik (Marvel Comics)

Magik (Illyana Nikolievna Rasputina - typically anglicized to Rasputin) is a fictional superhero appearing in comic books published by Marvel Comics, most often in relation to the X-Men. She first appeared in the comic book, Giant-Size X-Men #1 (May 1975). Magik is the younger sister of the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Mate, her profile still says that she can't harm nonmagical beings with her Soul Sword. That hasn't been true for over a decade now.

Her profile in general is in desperate need of an update

 

[Excellence616]

Knull NPI addition

Non-Physical Interaction/Resurrection (1A) for knull. Knull's essence has revived the Chaos King. The Chaos King's page features non-existent physiology. Additionally, Hercules possesses NPI because he affected the Chaos King and fought him. Therefore, knull must have an NPI Source: Venom...

vsbattles.com

 

[Tahoy49574]

Excellence616/Scans

vsbattles.fandom.com

Anyone can add to it if they want

Is any of these useful for the ongoing thread ?

 

[Excellence616]

Is any of these useful for the ongoing thread ?

Yes

 

[ObberGobb]

What would people think of merging most of the Heralds back into one tier again? I'm collecting feats and statements of relative power as I read through Avengers (and later X-Men and general cosmic stuff) and I really don't feel like there is any actual in-universe split between the 5-Bs and the 3-Cs that we have on the site. I'm not going to make a CRT until I've read through everything I want to, but that's what I'm feeling right now.

I feel like the real split is with characters like Thor, Hulk, Thanos, Sentry, maybe Ultron, etc. who are WELL above every other Herald Tier at their peak. Characters like Thor and Hulk generally are at the level of Heralds when operating normally, but at their peaks are vastly above them, shown with Thor curbstomping Silver Surfer and Adam Warlock at the same time, Hulk being able to fight Onslaught, Thanos holding his own against Odin, Sentry fighting off Galactus (albeit off-screen), and Ultron being straight up unharmed by anybody's attacks.

I don't know where this would all end up, as Ultron for one is definitely not Skyfather level. But characters like Thor, Thanos, Loki, and Sentry do have feats that imply they could be at least close to that level.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

What would people think of merging most of the Heralds back into one tier again? I'm collecting feats and statements of relative power as I read through Avengers (and later X-Men and general cosmic stuff) and I really don't feel like there is any actual in-universe split between the 5-Bs and the 3-Cs that we have on the site. I'm not going to make a CRT until I've read through everything I want to, but that's what I'm feeling right now.

I feel like the real split is with characters like Thor, Hulk, Thanos, Sentry, maybe Ultron, etc. who are WELL above every other Herald Tier at their peak. Characters like Thor and Hulk generally are at the level of Heralds when operating normally, but at their peaks are vastly above them, shown with Thor curbstomping Silver Surfer and Adam Warlock at the same time, Hulk being able to fight Onslaught, Thanos holding his own against Odin, Loki being able to almost one-shot Silver Surfer with his magic, Sentry fighting off Galactus (albeit off-screen), and Ultron being straight up unharmed by anybody's attacks.

I don't know where this would all end up, as Ultron for one is definitely not Skyfather level. But characters like Thor, Thanos, Loki, and Sentry do have feats that imply they could be at least close to that level.

How would that work? Do all 3-C became 5-Bs or the other way around?
In my view 5-Bs are the strongest level of characters that are "stuck" on earth in the sense that they spent most of their time there. Then 4-C up to 3-C would be cosmic characters, those who often travel to other planets, the likes of Nova, Quasar, Captain Marvel ect then you got the heralds. I think it makes more sense than low mid and high heralds.

 

[ObberGobb]

How would that work? Do all 3-C became 5-Bs or the other way around?
In my view 5-Bs are the strongest level of characters that are "stuck" on earth in the sense that they spent most of their time there. Then 4-C up to 3-C would be cosmic characters, those who often travel to other planets, the likes of Nova, Quasar, Captain Marvel ect then you got the heralds. I think it makes more sense than low mid and high heralds.

Honestly I don't know. Like there definitely is a significant difference in power between the likes of The Thing and of Silver Surfer, and of Iron Man and Blue Marvel, but I don't know how big it is. Like Super Skrull can fight Silver Surfer, but Super Skrull is also shown to be on Thing's level. Iron Man has defeated characters like Terrax and Ulik.

At the very least, I think that the cosmic characters should all be merged into the same tier. Silver Surfer, Gladiator, Quasar, Nova, Blue Marvel, Hyperion, etc. Tbh though I'm a bit iffy on 3-C now. A solid chunk of the 3-C feats we have are from Thor or Hercules, who should not be scaled to since they are gods. Silver Surfer does have some good 3-C feats, but I'm wondering if the 4-B range is more consistent? Idk.

I think you might be right about earthbound characters being on a lower level that the cosmic heavy hitters actually, looking again at some of my notes.

Where do you think this leaves earth-based "teambusters" like Count Nefaria and Graviton? Both are sometimes implied in their old stories to be stronger than peak and Thor and Hulk, which is a problem as peak Thor and Hulk are both 1-A. I have to say, Thor is posing quite the problem because he has a ton of Tier 1 feats, but is basically the only one to have those feats.

Maybe we could end up with something like:

Earth High Tiers: 5-B (I think these characters being Planet level at least is extremely consistent)
Herald Tiers: 3-C (or maybe 4-B if we downgrade)
God Tiers: 1-A

Alternatively, since some of those Earth High Tiers have on occasion held their own against, or even outright defeated, Herald Tiers,, we could have just:

High Tiers and Herald Tiers: 3-C
God Tiers: 1-A

Or:

High Tiers: At most 3-C
Herald Tiers: 3-C
God Tiers 1-A

Or, the "**** it we ball" option:

High Tiers, Herald Tiers, and Gods: 1-A

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Honestly I don't know. Like there definitely is a significant difference in power between the likes of The Thing and of Silver Surfer, and of Iron Man and Blue Marvel, but I don't know how big it is. Like Super Skrull can fight Silver Surfer, but Super Skrull is also shown to be on Thing's level. Iron Man has defeated characters like Terrax and Ulik.

At the very least, I think that the cosmic characters should all be merged into the same tier. Silver Surfer, Gladiator, Quasar, Nova, Blue Marvel, Hyperion, etc. Tbh though I'm a bit iffy on 3-C now. A solid chunk of the 3-C feats we have are from Thor or Hercules, who should not be scaled to since they are gods. Silver Surfer does have some good 3-C feats, but I'm wondering if the 4-B range is more consistent? Idk.

There is a nova feat that is 4-B that apparently scales to Quasar, and in a comic he considered Captain Marvel Binary to be omnipotent so she scales above that feat too. I think them being around 4-B should work, statements that suggest them having the power of a star, channeling the power of a star ect are somewhat common among more cosmic characters.

I think you might be right about earthbound characters being on a lower level that the cosmic heavy hitters actually, looking again at some of my notes.

Where do you think this leaves earth-based "teambusters" like Count Nefaria and Graviton? Both are sometimes implied in their old stories to be stronger than peak and Thor and Hulk, which is a problem as peak Thor and Hulk are both 1-A. I have to say, Thor is posing quite the problem because he has a ton of Tier 1 feats, but is basically the only one to have those feats.

IF they are stuck with scaling to Thor and Hulk that's a problem since they are obviously very inconsistent. Overall Thor and Hulk are often portrayed much weaker when in team books since they usually work together with much weaker characters, so basically in team books often the weaker guys are amped and the "way too strong" are weakened so that the gap between them is much smaller, I think somewhere around 5-B to the cosmic 3-Cs is better for those characters that are shown comparable to Thor and Hulk fighting on Earth since even in team books they are the team's heavy hitters.