Star Wars Discussion Thread Canon/Legends- Episode VI Return of the Threadi

[Phsccarvalho]

First of all, you lol
You showed me that a short time after what we call "Post-Mustafar Vader", he surpassed Sidious
And we don't have basis to say that the buffs Sidious and Rey received are enough to take Vader out, hence why Sidious is mentioned only once and below Post-Rebels Vader

Where did I say that?

 

[Nonynho]

Vader surpass Sidious?

I mean, only if you're talking about RotS Sidious, if you consider that RotS Anakin is close in power before he turned to the dark side (a statement from Sidious himself), and then the guy becomes stronger with the dark side and over time like Darth Vader, and at some point along the continuum, he must have surpassed this RotS version of Sidious.

Here.
Anywhere where that's contradicting what i say? (Anything higher would get Yoda above P-Mustafar Vader and that is PEAK) If so, tell me:

• Where should Sidious position himself
• And, if that's also what you're defending, please indicate to me where's evidence of a great difference between Ep 6 and Ep 9 Palpatine's
• And where should Ep 9's Sidious (by consequence, Rey+Spirits) be, in your opinion, on the current list.

 

[Nonynho]

.

Also, i call you because you marked urself ad knowledgeable in Fallen Order on the verse page
Is Cal and Cere in the correct position?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Also, i call you because you marked urself ad knowledgeable in Fallen Order on the verse page
Is Cal and Cere in the correct position?

I'm too tired to pick your scaling chain apart, but those two don't have the best feats.

Cere gives Vader a genuine fight in survivor, but I can't recall the same for Cal.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Here.
Anywhere where that's contradicting what i say? (Anything higher would get Yoda above P-Mustafar Vader and that is PEAK) If so, tell me:

• Where should Sidious position himself
• And, if that's also what you're defending, please indicate to me where's evidence of a great difference between Ep 6 and Ep 9 Palpatine's
• And where should Ep 9's Sidious (by consequence, Rey+Spirits) be, in your opinion, on the current list.

But in this comment, I'm talking about Episode 3, Sidious.

Sided mentions that Anakin (before becoming his apprentice) had a power that almost rivaled his. And that from that point on, at some point in Vader's escalation, he probably surpassed this version of Sidious from Episode 3.

Did you confuse RotS with Return of the Jedi?

 

[Nonynho]

But in this comment, I'm talking about Episode 3, Sidious.

Sided mentions that Anakin (before becoming his apprentice) had a power that almost rivaled his. And that from that point on, at some point in Vader's escalation, he probably surpassed this version of Sidious from Episode 3.

Did you confuse RotS with Return of the Jedi?

No, I was just convinced that it kept up as a continuum where it was still Vader>Sidious

• Where should Sidious position himself
• And, if that's also what you're defending, please indicate to me where's evidence of a great difference between Ep 6 and Ep 9 Palpatine's
• And where should Ep 9's Sidious (by consequence, Rey+Spirits) be, in your opinion, on the current list.

Please answer those as you think it would be correct

Cere gives Vader a genuine fight in survivor

I don't see it like much of a geeeeenuine fight, seeing it on yt, but ok

 

[DaReaperMan]

I don't see it like much of a geeeeenuine fight, seeing it on yt, but ok

you don't make Vader wheeze and limp and not give him a real fight.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Also, i call you because you marked urself ad knowledgeable in Fallen Order on the verse page
Is Cal and Cere in the correct position?

Cere fought essentially an OWK Vader. Since OWK and Jedi Survivor take place in the same year,

Vader used both hands from the middle of the fight, which means he was fighting seriously.

In other words:

Jedi Survivor Vader ~ OWK Vader >~? Cere

It kind of depends. Fighting seriously doesn't mean using all your power/going all out. It depends on the person.

Please answer those as you think it would be correct

I don't know, from there it gets complicated.

Since there are three Sidious to deal with. I don't feel like it right now, it's too late.

 

[Nonynho]

Jedi Survivor Vader ~ OWK Vader >~? Cere

Let's call all of those what they are as of now: P-Rebels' Vader.
I belittled her because imo she just got mugged and i misplaced the events on the TL. Will be changing it, but she don't get thaaaat much higher

I don't know, from there it gets complicated.

Since there are three Sidious to deal with. I don't feel like it right now, it's too late.

Take your time, it's fine.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Which fight do you mean?
Because in Rebels she is not stable and she can even push away that boy to keep fighting with him, going blow for blow the entire time
And in her show she started going blow for blow, things went a bit south and then she got the flow of the fight again and Anakin had a lightsaber to the neck at the end.

Can't see where she was being overwhelmed at all

"To the end" He pressured her the entire time and force pushed her off the temple and wasn't showing any signs of struggle

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Let's call all of those what they are as of now: P-Rebels' Vader.

For a scaling chain, I don't think this is the best option, at least not the kind of scaling chain you want (determining who's strongest and weakest, since this guy gets stronger over time).

Although the Rebels-onward key only has one more statement of power increase, which is saying that in RoJ, Vader is more powerful in the Force than ever and in his mastery of the lightsaber.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

For a scaling chain, I don't think this is the best option, at least not the kind of scaling chain you want (determining who's strongest and weakest, since this guy gets stronger over time).

Although the Rebels-onward key only has one more statement of power increase, which is saying that in RoJ, Vader is more powerful in the Force than ever and in his mastery of the lightsaber.

This. And to the notion that Post-Rebels Vader is more powerful than Palpatine, if you're not referring strictly to RotS Palpatine: No

 

[Ruby_R_Dracula]

Okay, I put this together.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Phsccarvalho/Sandbox8?oldid=9206136

As I said, the plan would basically be trained Force-sensitives and Mandalorians (who scale with gear. Although I propose removing Ursa Wren's profile). Note: some force-sensitives are in the sandbox because they simply don't have profiles, I'm just removing their faces from the page.

The few exceptions are those who scale with this character category (Magnaguards, Grievous, Karbin, etc.).

And I left the three giant monsters because it's cool to have giant monsters.
-
Why do I kind of propose this? Like removing anyone who isn't trained Force-sensitives/Mandalorians and who scale? Because they have their own problems.

They are "normal" (some have superhuman feats) that depend on the weapon classification. But this is where the problems begin. The weapon calculations are from blogs outside the wiki, and with these weapons, they can injure Jedi in combat.

And honestly, that's a whole discussion. Either the equipment only hurts Jedi when it's not amplified, or it doesn't matter because blasters deal heat-based damage and Jedi don't have heat resistance by default (so superhuman durability doesn't even matter), or the weapons simply scale on their own.

Like, this is a whole discussion that affects tons of profiles (or future ones with the exclusion). And I think for now we should focus on the face of the verse? (jedi/sith mandalorians and the few that are the same)

Can I get your opinion on this "plan"? Any opinions on the selected profiles (remove from the selection or include some)

Add the Magnaguards to that, I have their profiles saved in a sandbox and a sandbox for their rework

would be easier since I don't have to make a crt to add the profile once I'm done

 

[Nonynho]

"To the end" He pressured her the entire time and force pushed her off the temple and wasn't showing any signs of struggle

He clearly gave her pressure because she was not feeling well, seeing her master/friend like that, and yet she was going blow for blow with him, also giving him pressure.
Of course we see more signs of struggle from Ahsoka, we don't see Darth Vader's face lol.

And she came back from being pushed, still giving him a headache

 

[Nonynho]

For a scaling chain, I don't think this is the best option, at least not the kind of scaling chain you want (determining who's strongest and weakest, since this guy gets stronger over time).

Although the Rebels-onward key only has one more statement of power increase, which is saying that in RoJ, Vader is more powerful in the Force than ever and in his mastery of the lightsaber.

Well, then we'd have to change how the keys of the profile work
I can't index on the verse page a scaling chain bringing up key-like mentions who aren't in the profile, like "Post RoJ" f.e.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Add the Magnaguards to that, I have their profiles saved in a sandbox and a sandbox for their rework

would be easier since I don't have to make a crt to add the profile once I'm done

It'll probably take me a while to figure out this CRT. I want all the adjustments made right away. I'm not a fan of deleting profiles just to think about the rest later.

For example, I'll see if I can find someone to correct/review all the Ap calculations.

 

[Nonynho]

This. And to the notion that Post-Rebels Vader is more powerful than Palpatine, if you're not referring strictly to RotS Palpatine: No

Will take that into consideration and change once again the chain
@Phsccarvalho I think this scan disproves the "Resistance to Electricity Manip." your CRT gave to Vader

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Will take that into consideration and change once again the chain
@Phsccarvalho I think this scan disproves the "Resistance to Electricity Manip." your CRT gave to Vader

That's not Force Lightning. It's just electricity coming out of Vader's broken robotic parts. Sidious only used TK. Besides, that's not the only thing used.

 

[Nonynho]

That's not Force Lightning. It's just electricity coming out of Vader's broken robotic parts. Sidious only used TK. Besides, that's not the only thing used.

Still, it seems as if it was part of what hurt him
May i ask again for the scans showing him resisting it?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Still, it seems as if it was part of what hurt him

What's hurting him is Sidius doing Force Crush all over his body.

May i ask again for the scans showing him resisting it?

electricity and force lightning.

 

[Nonynho]

Tired of updating stuff here in chat

sandbox6

vsbattles.fandom.com

Any other input?

 

[Ruby_R_Dracula]

Tired of updating stuff here in chat

sandbox6

vsbattles.fandom.com

Any other input?

scans.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

@Phsccarvalho With the scaling chain, we agree that Vader > Yoda, right?

 

[Nonynho]

scans.

When I rewrite it to the Verse-acceptable format, yeah

 

[Nonynho]

@Phsccarvalho With the scaling chain, we agree that Vader > Yoda, right?

If Vader < Sidious and we saw Yoda getting the upper hand for a while against Sidious, it does not proceed.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

@Phsccarvalho With the scaling chain, we agree that Vader > Yoda, right?

Yoda RotS? I think at some point I think so. But how much? It depends.

If Vader < Sidious and we saw Yoda getting the upper hand for a while against Sidious, it does not proceed.

Why do you keep considering the characters to have a single version and not getting stronger over time?

Yes, Vader is inferior to Sidious, but a post-Episode 3 Sidious became stronger in the Force and kept pace with Vader's power (which nearly rivaled Sidious's power as Anakin before turning to the dark side).

I don't recall any official statements from Vader and Yoda, but Vader has a much better scale.

Sidious (RotS) >~ Anakin (pre-Sith) < Anakin (post-Sith) < Vader (post-suit) < Vader (RotS) < OWK Vader < ROJ Vader.

(There are still some more statements of increased power from Vader but I haven't gathered the scans yet)

That ">~" at the beginning is because Sidious said "nearly rivaled his power," so it shouldn't be that far off.

 

[Nonynho]

Yes, Vader is inferior to Sidious, but a post-Episode 3 Sidious became stronger in the Force and kept pace with Vader's power (which nearly rivaled Sidious's power as Anakin before turning to the dark side).

Please check the current scaling chain.
Post-Rebels is the last key and Marvulous showed that our Endor Sidious still smacks him

If you intend to make this point that they grow in time, you'd have to make more keys.

If the only thing we can say is that Yoda matched the Endor Sidious key, and that guy is shown to be > Vader, than that's the material we have lol

 

[Phsccarvalho]

@Phsccarvalho With the scaling chain, we agree that Vader > Yoda, right?

Do you have access to these two books?

Star Wars: Jedi vs. Sith (book)

Star Wars: Jedi vs. Sith is a canon reference book that compiles content previously published in Star Wars: Jedi Battles (2013) and Star Wars Character Encyclopedia: Updated and Expanded (2016). It was published by DK Publishing in 2016. ISBN 9781465458827; 2016; DK Publishing; US hardcover[1]...

starwars.fandom.com

Star Wars: The Story of Darth Vader (2015)

Star Wars: The Story of Darth Vader is a canon DK Readers Level 3 title that traces the rise, fall, and redemption of Darth Vader through the Star Wars film saga. It is a reissue of the 2008 Star Wars Legends title of the same name by author Catherine Saunders, with sixteen pages of additional...

starwars.fandom.com

Quite possibly there are good statements about Vader's power getting stronger over time.

Post-Rebels is the last key and Marvulous showed that our Endor Sidious still smacks him

If you intend to make this point that they grow in time, you'd have to make more keys.

It's literally in his profile that Sidious delved deeper into the Force after RotS. In addition to the several phrases of him saying that people's hatred for him makes him stronger.

If the only thing we can say is that Yoda matched the Endor Sidious key, and that guy is shown to be > Vader, than that's the material we have lol

Sidious's Endor Key is from his post-RotS version until his death.

Besides the fact that Yoda never faced this version of Sidious, he only faced RotS Sidious, it's still decades since Sidious delved deeper into the dark side.

EDIT: Besides, this attack by Sidious against Vader was in "Darth Vader (2020) # 7", which takes place between Episode 5 and 6, and we know that in episode 6 Vader is stronger than before. (besides, in Darth Vader 2020 # 40 he managed to block Sidious's lightning well)

 

[Nonynho]

Do you have access to these two books?

Star Wars: Jedi vs. Sith (book)

Star Wars: Jedi vs. Sith is a canon reference book that compiles content previously published in Star Wars: Jedi Battles (2013) and Star Wars Character Encyclopedia: Updated and Expanded (2016). It was published by DK Publishing in 2016. ISBN 9781465458827; 2016; DK Publishing; US hardcover[1]...

starwars.fandom.com

Star Wars: The Story of Darth Vader (2015)

Star Wars: The Story of Darth Vader is a canon DK Readers Level 3 title that traces the rise, fall, and redemption of Darth Vader through the Star Wars film saga. It is a reissue of the 2008 Star Wars Legends title of the same name by author Catherine Saunders, with sixteen pages of additional...

starwars.fandom.com

Quite possibly there are good statements about Vader's power getting stronger over time.


It's literally in his profile that Sidious delved deeper into the Force after RotS. In addition to the several phrases of him saying that people's hatred for him makes him stronger.


Sidious's Endor Key is from his post-RotS version until his death.

Besides the fact that Yoda never faced this version of Sidious, he only faced RotS Sidious, it's still decades since Sidious delved deeper into the dark side.

EDIT: Besides, this attack by Sidious against Vader was in "Darth Vader (2020) # 7", which takes place between Episode 5 and 6, and we know that in episode 6 Vader is stronger than before. (besides, in Darth Vader 2020 # 40 he managed to block Sidious's lightning well)

Again, it does not counter what I pointed out: there is need for more keys to be done in both Vader and Sidious

 

[Nonynho]

Or at least another Vader key because if P-Rebels' is getting wrecked by Sidious, and outgrows it, so it should be pointed out.

Edit: also, Sidious shouldn't get another key just because he's matching Yoda, but because he wrecked a quantity of jedi Masters and even Windu

Also, are Sidious and Vader profiles considered reformed or still amidst changes?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Again, it does not counter what I pointed out: there is need for more keys to be done in both Vader and Sidious

Are there no more keys needed?

Even in keys, we consider the final moment of that key.

For example, in a vsthreads, the "post-Mustafar" Vader would be the strongest Vader before Rebels started (since the next key is from that point until his RotS version). Which in this case would be the Vader from Jedi Survivor.

Sidious Endor is about Sidious from Episode 6 specifically.

You're talking about creating more keys, but like, there's no RotS key for Sidious, it's just him from Episode 6 and beyond.

P-Rebels' is getting wrecked by Sidious

Dude, when we say "Rebels and Onward key," we consider ourselves to be the Episode 6 Vader version.

For example: "Goku (key: Nanek Arc)." In VS Battle, we consider this to be Goku at the end of this key (Frieza fight, SSJ, etc.), not Goku when he reached Nanek.

Exactly. The "Rebels and Onward" key isn't considered to be Vader from Rebels, but rather Vader at the final point.

Edit: also, Sidious shouldn't get another key just because he's matching Yoda, but because he wrecked a quantity of jedi Masters and even Windu

Also, are Sidious and Vader profiles considered reformed or still amidst changes?

There's no RotS Sidious key, only his Episode 6 version.

I'm just revamping Vader's AP section.

Every 5 days, I find new power-up declarations and add them to the profile in a CRT.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Do you have access to these two books?

Star Wars: Jedi vs. Sith (book)

Star Wars: Jedi vs. Sith is a canon reference book that compiles content previously published in Star Wars: Jedi Battles (2013) and Star Wars Character Encyclopedia: Updated and Expanded (2016). It was published by DK Publishing in 2016. ISBN 9781465458827; 2016; DK Publishing; US hardcover[1]...

starwars.fandom.com

Star Wars: The Story of Darth Vader (2015)

Star Wars: The Story of Darth Vader is a canon DK Readers Level 3 title that traces the rise, fall, and redemption of Darth Vader through the Star Wars film saga. It is a reissue of the 2008 Star Wars Legends title of the same name by author Catherine Saunders, with sixteen pages of additional...

starwars.fandom.com

Quite possibly there are good statements about Vader's power getting stronger over time.

DK Readers L3_ Star Wars_ The Story of Darth Vader_ Discover -- Saunders, Catherine; Beecroft, Simon; Hibbert, Clare; -- Dorling Kindersley readers, -- 9780241186343 -- d2880411a8abaa6754f64bc86e9db383 -- A

MediaFire is a simple to use free service that lets you put all your photos, documents, music, and video in a single place so you can access them anywhere and share them everywhere.

www.mediafire.com

Star Wars_ Jedi vs_ Sith -- Disney's -- Star Wars (Dorling Kindersley, Inc_), First American -- dk publishing usa -- 9781465458827 -- 0f202a86704f664a9646833199724d93 -- Anna’s Archive

MediaFire is a simple to use free service that lets you put all your photos, documents, music, and video in a single place so you can access them anywhere and share them everywhere.

www.mediafire.com

 

[Phsccarvalho]

DK Readers L3_ Star Wars_ The Story of Darth Vader_ Discover -- Saunders, Catherine; Beecroft, Simon; Hibbert, Clare; -- Dorling Kindersley readers, -- 9780241186343 -- d2880411a8abaa6754f64bc86e9db383 -- A

MediaFire is a simple to use free service that lets you put all your photos, documents, music, and video in a single place so you can access them anywhere and share them everywhere.

www.mediafire.com

Star Wars_ Jedi vs_ Sith -- Disney's -- Star Wars (Dorling Kindersley, Inc_), First American -- dk publishing usa -- 9781465458827 -- 0f202a86704f664a9646833199724d93 -- Anna’s Archive

MediaFire is a simple to use free service that lets you put all your photos, documents, music, and video in a single place so you can access them anywhere and share them everywhere.

www.mediafire.com

How do you even manage that kind of thing?

I mean, these books are really complicated.

 

[Nonynho]

You're talking about creating more keys, but like, there's no RotS key for Sidious, it's just him from Episode 6 and beyond.

And i'm saying there should be one because or else we gotta make a wrong comparison between Yoda's only key and Endor Sidious, making Yoda > P-Rebels Vader, which y'all are protesting against.

It's simple, what else would we compare Yoda against? Unless you really insist on getting out of what the profiles index and just put yoda down for some reason making this

Rey w/ Jedi Spirits > Post-Endor Sidious ~ Sequels Luke > RoJ Luke = OWK Obi-Wan ≥ RotS/Endor Sidious = Yoda > Rebels Ahsoka = Post-Rebels Vader ≥ Kit Fisto / Plo Koon / Windu = Post-Mustafar Vader

become this:

Rey w/ Jedi Spirits > Post-Endor Sidious ~ Sequels Luke > RoJ Luke = OWK Obi-Wan ≥ Endor Sidious ≥ Rebels Ahsoka = Post-Rebels Vader > Unindexed RotS Sidious= Yoda ≥ Kit Fisto / Plo Koon / Windu = Post-Mustafar Vader

Or mention more Vader keys idk
This is what you claim?

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

How do you even manage that kind of thing?

Anna's Archive?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Star Wars_ Jedi vs_ Sith -- Disney's -- Star Wars (Dorling Kindersley, Inc_), First American -- dk publishing usa -- 9781465458827 -- 0f202a86704f664a9646833199724d93 -- Anna’s Archive

MediaFire is a simple to use free service that lets you put all your photos, documents, music, and video in a single place so you can access them anywhere and share them everywhere.

www.mediafire.com

When this guide was released, OWK didn't exist, but now that it does, this new context makes this Vader superior to that version, while Kenobi is weaker.

Anakin (pre-Sith) < Anakin (post-Sith) < Vader (post-suit) < Vader (RotS) < OWK Vader < ANH Vader < ROJ Vader.

And i'm saying there should be one because or else we gotta make a wrong comparison between Yoda's only key and Endor Sidious, making Yoda > P-Rebels Vader, which y'all are protesting against.

It's simple, what else would we compare Yoda against? Unless you really insist on getting out of what the profiles index and just put yoda down for some reason making this

become this:

Or mention more Vader keys idk
This is what you claim?

It will happen someday; other things are coming up.

Besides, why would you need to create a scalar chain with only existing keys? Like, you just need to add a RotS Sidious.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Anna's Archive?

Dude, I just looked it up, unbelievable.

 

[Nonynho]

Besides, why would you need to create a scalar chain with only existing keys? Like, you just need to add a RotS Sidious.

Because that's what will be on the verse page and it's kinda weird
And because from what i got, you intend to put some more Vaders in the chain, which i think gets the same weirdness

ANH Vader < ROJ Vader.

Other guide says it? Just curious

 

[Phsccarvalho]

More direct statement that over time the powers of Sidious and Vader grew stronger.

Other guide says it? Just curious

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Me preparing a thousand scans for wank Anakin/Vader: