(GRACE) Adding Pokemon Masters to the canon

[Jinx666]

if you two don't have new content to contribute to a debate & your debate is primarily, if not specifically one another whom you know is likely to disagree with you, then try to avoid doing so

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

NOW you follow what he said.

 

[Imaginym]

Having now checked the linked evidence provided in the opening post of this thread, I reiterate this stance, which was established June 21st, 2025, a time prior to my becoming a Thread Moderator, to clarify that I find it is reasonable, with the further clarification however that:
I find myself in agreement with the sentiments established in this post:


Based on this, DDM also agreed with it.

As may likely be evident, my preference (& assuming their stance(s) haven't changed since August 1st & 2nd, 2025, the same is true for FinePoint & DarkDragonMedeus) is new profiles to be created, presumably for Masters EX content.
Treating them as Secondary Canon, with New Keys in addition to New Profiles &/or "some combination of the previous three", is also deemed reasonable; Presumably, the option of just "New Profiles" or the 3 as a whole or in some combination is to be determined based on a majority, & the majority will determine which precludes the other.
Should neither have the majority, then it would default to the just New profiles option.

@FinePoint @DarkDragonMedeus : Forgive me please for @-ing you, but given the amount of time passed & how impactful your clarifications of how you are voting here could be important, I would like you two to clarify, please:

Do you have any preference between:
A. Secondary canon, new keys, new profiles, some combination of the previous three.
OR
B. New profiles.

It is my understanding of the establishment of this stance by FinePoint's wording that should no preference for either of those two be distinguished, then preference should default to Option B, "New profiles".



BTW, if my saying so can be pardoned, please @Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera , @Jinx666 : You two often seem at odds & at an impasse with one another. While bumping a thread at a reasonable rate is fine, if you two don't have new content to contribute to a debate & your debate is primarily, if not specifically one another whom you know is likely to disagree with you, then try to avoid doing so, or at the very least, attempt to be polite.

Because we have entered a new page, thanks to recent posts that attempted to summarize this thread, I am quoting this for context & visibility.

 

[FinePoint]

Do you have any preference between:
A. Secondary canon, new keys, new profiles, some combination of the previous three.
OR
B. New profiles.

New profiles are probably the easiest way to do it while avoiding conflict.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

New profiles are probably the easiest way to do it while avoiding conflict.

That would be okay if it wasn't tied to literally every character. Obviously it'd work better for some characters than others, but the characters range from the perfect natural conclusion of their game selves to some guy with a Pokemon.

 

[Imaginym]

That would be okay if it wasn't tied to literally every character. Obviously it'd work better for some characters than others, but the characters range from the perfect natural conclusion of their game selves to some guy with a Pokemon.

These issues may be able to mitigated case by case.

New profiles are probably the easiest way to do it while avoiding conflict.

If it is the case that our stances still support this option, then we just need @DarkDragonMedeus & maybe Antvasima (Since they are also a Staff Member who participated in this thread.) to clarify their stance on the choice (A. Secondary canon, new keys, new profiles, some combination of the previous three. OR B. New profiles.), then, no?

 

[Jinx666]

We cant pick and choose for which character gets a separate page and which one gets their Masters EX content merged in with it however.

There would need to be one general stance taken. You cant have someone like Leon get all his Masters EX content on his mainline page, but then make a separate page for Masters EX N just because one contradicts the other less, for example. It makes scaling all the more hodge-podged and less confident.

Masters Ex should be able to include all of the content that characters directly mention/reference to from the mainline and which storybeats (but not compositing everything a player can possibly do in a game, since unlike the player character, these are the actual canon stand-ins). Only the Pokemon they're shown to use in Masters EX should be included too since it is a specific interpretation thats made to co-exist with the opposite-gendered protag and other characters.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

That’s actually exactly what we can do lol, since Leon fights literally exactly like he does in SwSh while N just spams Legendaries.

 

[Jinx666]

Its not. If we're dedicating to making a certain piece of media secondary canon, then the entire verse has to stick to that notion. We cant mix mainline into Masters Ex for one character, and then another character having to have a separate profile to a mainline counterpart. It needs to be consistent.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Could I get a TL;DR on what's being proposed?

The canon split was undone, so Masters is already considered canon, so is the proposal that Masters should be considered part of the mainline games' continuity (granted, those games themselves are already set in different timelines and universes)?

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Could I get a TL;DR on what's being proposed?

The canon split was undone, so Masters is already considered canon, so is the proposal that Masters should be considered part of the mainline games' continuity (granted, those games themselves are already set in different timelines and universes)?

That just means it's possible in the multiverse. Also Jinx here complained so much about Masters that the mods decided it's so noncanon that any profile with Masters stuff on it (like my Calem and Gloria profiles) will be removed. The proposal is for it to become canon again and be considered as being in the game timeline.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Its not. If we're dedicating to making a certain piece of media secondary canon, then the entire verse has to stick to that notion. We cant mix mainline into Masters Ex for one character, and then another character having to have a separate profile to a mainline counterpart. It needs to be consistent.

Secondary canon doesn't mean segregated profiles, nice try. It means it's canon unless something contradicts a (more) canon game.

 

[Jinx666]

Yes, and we're currently for 'segregated profiles' due to the nature of Masters EX.

We still shouldnt ever be including Masters EX only on a few mainline profiles, and then not counting it for others, that just makes the scaling all over the place. Hence why separate profiles for Masters EX wont have this issue.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Yes, and we're currently for 'segregated profiles' due to the nature of Masters EX.

No we're not, and your only argument is that it would be more convenient, not more accurate.

We still shouldnt ever be including Masters EX only on a few mainline profiles, and then not counting it for others, that just makes the scaling all over the place. Hence why separate profiles for Masters EX wont have this issue.

So you're willing to hurt the bigger profiles to make more small profiles?

 

[Jinx666]

Yeah im putting a pin in this now. It should be obvious why you would make all the verse profiles follow their same respective canon as opposed to mixing and matching composites.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

That just means it's possible in the multiverse. Also Jinx here complained so much about Masters that the mods decided it's so noncanon that any profile with Masters stuff on it (like my Calem and Gloria profiles) will be removed. The proposal is for it to become canon again and be considered as being in the game timeline.

Couldn't Masters be its own key?

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Couldn't Masters be its own key?

That's what it would be for most characters.

 

[Imaginym]

Couldn't Masters be its own key?

That could be an outcome to this thread.
The current proposition is based on this:

I'll elaborate, since I feel like my opinion can't really be easily summarized as "agree or disagrees".

Proposals I think would be unreasonable: Declaring it entirely non-canon and not using it at all.

Proposals I think would be reasonable: Secondary canon, new keys, new profiles, some combination of the previous three.

Proposal which I personally prefer: New profiles.

"Proposals I think would be reasonable: Secondary canon, new keys, new profiles, some combination of the previous three."

If DarkDragonMedeus clarifies their stance to be in favor of this, I would assume @FinePoint would be okay with it, since the option that includes new keys is deemed reasonable even if it isn't deemed as what FinePoint personally prefers, unlike the New Profiles only option, which is what FinePoint deemed as their preference.

I would also be fine with that stance.

It depends on what DarkDragonMedeus clarifies their position to be, as I believe we are waiting for them to input again.

FinePoint personally prefers the "New Profiles only" option, & I am also willing to support that, but if there is voting support for the "Secondary canon, new keys, new profiles, some combination of the previous three", I am also willing to support that, as both me & FinePoint believe it could be deemed reasonable.

 

[Jinx666]

Couldn't Masters be its own key?

Well no cause that still puts it up into mainline. You wouldnt put Xeno Goku as a key on the Goku page

Masters EX is far too contradictory, crossover-based, abundance of newcontent and huge scaling implications for all characters (esp when a lot of characters are interpretations, like the protag characters) to be lumped into mainline profiles (that arent likely to be managed or updated anyway). They shouldnt hold bearing over mainline releases, and thus putting a key in on a mainline canon page is putting secondary alternate content thats only canon in character-interpretation just doenst work.

Its also an ongoing game, and any new content or story beat could immediately contradict the mainline and no longer be eligible. With separate pages, you dont have to worry about this.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Well no cause that still puts it up into mainline. You wouldnt put Xeno Goku as a key on the Goku page

Masters EX is far too contradictory, crossover-based, abundance of newcontent and huge scaling implications for all characters (esp when a lot of characters are interpretations, like the protag characters) to be lumped into mainline profiles (that arent likely to be managed or updated anyway). They shouldnt hold bearing over mainline releases, and thus putting a key in on a mainline canon page is putting secondary alternate content thats only canon in character-interpretation just doenst work.

Its also an ongoing game, and any new content or story beat could immediately contradict the mainline and no longer be eligible. With separate pages, you dont have to worry about this.

Hm... I guess I'll let the staff decide. I'm fine with either option.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Well no cause that still puts it up into mainline. You wouldnt put Xeno Goku as a key on the Goku page

Masters EX is far too contradictory, crossover-based, abundance of newcontent and huge scaling implications for all characters (esp when a lot of characters are interpretations, like the protag characters) to be lumped into mainline profiles (that arent likely to be managed or updated anyway). They shouldnt hold bearing over mainline releases, and thus putting a key in on a mainline canon page is putting secondary alternate content thats only canon in character-interpretation just doenst work.

Its also an ongoing game, and any new content or story beat could immediately contradict the mainline and no longer be eligible. With separate pages, you dont have to worry about this.

Association Fallacy, since even in-universe he's from a different timeline than mainline GT, and isn't supposed to be the main guy. In Pokemon Masters it's literally supposed to be the real canon characters and timeline.

If only you had actually read my comment when I addressed these and didn't just outright admit to ignoring my points, you wouldn't be regurgitating them now.

Also we literally can and do use secondary canon on main pages all the time. You're just using the phrase "secondary canon" to affirm your own literal lies.

 

[Jinx666]

Im still not responding to you Pazdera idk why you're still trying to stir the pot

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Im still not responding to you Pazdera idk why you're still trying to stir the pot

"I'm just peacefully lying to fans to try and get my idea I lied about being accurate to take over your CRT, idk why you're listing off all the reasons I'm wrong for everyone to see"

 

[Jinx666]

Can a mod tell him to pack it in please, genuinely just need this thread done with now

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Can a mod tell him to pack it in please, genuinely just need this thread done with now

You are the reason I keep having to type; either to provide context or straight up correct things that you tell other people. And how dare you complain about the pace of my CRT, when not only do I not want it done yet as of now, but without your interference it could've been done in July.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Can we stop this "HOW DARE YOU GO AGAINST ME" crap and let mods read and decide? Herding cats much?

 

[Imaginym]

Im still not responding to you Pazdera idk why you're still trying to stir the pot

Can a mod tell him to pack it in please, genuinely just need this thread done with now

"I'm just peacefully lying to fans to try and get my idea I lied about being accurate to take over your CRT, idk why you're listing off all the reasons I'm wrong for everyone to see"

You are the reason I keep having to type; either to provide context or straight up correct things that you tell other people. And how dare you complain about the pace of my CRT, when not only do I not want it done yet as of now, but without your interference it could've been done in July.

Both of you, stop it.

I've already told you both, recently, in this very thread, to stop starting unproductive arguments & acting improperly towards one another, & if you believe that I haven't, then be assured that I am telling you so now.

I'm confident your stances have been made clear, so a lot of what you say, especially the sort in the posts I quoted, is redundant while we're just waiting on input/clarification from staff at this point.
& you two accusing or insulting each other or whatever is obstructive because it creates more to read, & makes finding summaries & clarifications for staff to check take more time.

 

[Jinx666]

I've done nothing but literally tell him to stop and not argue entire posts with him, while he continues to reply, insult and stir, yet somehow we're under equal scrutiny.

Yeah okay.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

I've done nothing but literally tell him to stop and not argue entire posts with him, while he continues to reply, insult and stir and yet somehow we're under equal scrutiny.

Yeah okay.

Your attempts to "ignore my toxicity" or whatever come across as you ignoring the points I make.

 

[Jinx666]

I'd like to do both at this point

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

All we need left is for the last remaining mod to respond... please god just let it be over

 

[Imaginym]

That could be an outcome to this thread.
The current proposition is based on this:

"Proposals I think would be reasonable: Secondary canon, new keys, new profiles, some combination of the previous three."

If DarkDragonMedeus clarifies their stance to be in favor of this, I would assume @FinePoint would be okay with it, since the option that includes new keys is deemed reasonable even if it isn't deemed as what FinePoint personally prefers, unlike the New Profiles only option, which is what FinePoint deemed as their preference.

I would also be fine with that stance.

It depends on what DarkDragonMedeus clarifies their position to be, as I believe we are waiting for them to input again.

FinePoint personally prefers the "New Profiles only" option, & I am also willing to support that, but if there is voting support for the "Secondary canon, new keys, new profiles, some combination of the previous three", I am also willing to support that, as both me & FinePoint believe it could be deemed reasonable.

@DarkDragonMedeus Once again, your clarification of which of FinePoint's proposals you meant to express your agreement of would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Alright, we've waited long enough. It's not worth it to keep this open anymore.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

With an asked clarification, the stance I agree with is this.

"Proposals I think would be reasonable: Secondary canon, new keys, new profiles, some combination of the previous three."

 

[Imaginym]

With an asked clarification, the stance I agree with is this.

Thank you so very much for clarifying this.

Given that this stance was proposed as what @FinePoint said they think would be reasonable, & because I also find it reasonable, that should be 3 Staff Approvals, presuming @FinePoint has not changed their stance.

It is thus my understanding that following a grace period, this can be resolved.

Alright, we've waited long enough. It's not worth it to keep this open anymore.

I hope the recent efforts towards this thread's resolution have made progress to influence your stance towards accepting at least some or all of this conclusion.

In part because even if a user who proposes changes may not personally like changes, that does not disqualify them from being deemed valid, nor would it stop other users from proposing such changes, as far as I understand.

Apologies for any bother, all, & I hope this helps!

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Oh! Wait wait, hold the presses, he responded! So do only some Masters stuff get isolated profiles, or do all of them?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Secondary canon doesn't mean isolated profiles, it means can be used if they are uncontradicted by primary canon stuff basically.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Secondary canon doesn't mean isolated profiles, it means can be used if they are uncontradicted by primary canon stuff basically.

Oh, hype! Thank you! Grace can start now!

 

[DaReaperMan]

That's still two votes to prefering new profiles one to "any is acceptable(including new profiles)"

So thread conclusion would be new profiles

 

[Jinx666]

Secondary canon doesn't mean isolated profiles, it means can be used if they are uncontradicted by primary canon stuff basically.

This is blatantly wrong, and even further makes profiles contradict eachother. Espcially when Sean is going to be taking Masters EX over canon titles like Legends ZA now

Please dont tell me you're only chiming in with this to end it.

Oh, hype! Thank you! Grace can start now!

It cant, theres still a divide on how its handled and most people arent in favour of it, thinking separate profiles for Masters EX stuff is valid. The votes are in favour of separate profiles while the others are 'either is okay', so it takes precedence

Literally ignoring it to try and get your way