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Kamen Rider Shadowmoon VS Yu: Superiority Of Species (16-6-1) GRACE ENDED

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ZA STORY:​

Uhhhh they fight because Kaijin hate le hooman and le hooman no likey Kaijins

Keys and Versions used:​

Kamen Rider Shadowmoon (9-A) & Post-Santorino Fight Yu (9-A)

Location:​

In the Roman Colosseum. Starting Distance is 5 meters.

Roman-Coliseum.jpg.webp

Battle Conditions:​

  • Both characters are in character but willing to win
  • Win Condition is by death
  • Speed is equalized
  • Standard Equipment Only
  • Everything else unmentioned will be according to SBA

Votings:​

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Atreus' starting move is to shoot with arrows then call Kratos-

Shadowmoon loves to spam TK attacks first minute, though he has to raise his hand or at minimum move just his hand to TK grab his opponents. He also has an AOE variant where he just blows away anyone in his way (still via hand)
 
The TK itself is an issue but if he has to do a hand movement then it becomes a lot easier for Yu to deal with, his reactions will let him see Shadow as frozen and give him time to plan his move, so he can blitz forward with Monster Stance and just tap with a dura neg punch.
 
The TK itself is an issue but if he has to do a hand movement then it becomes a lot easier for Yu to deal with, his reactions will let him see Shadow as frozen and give him time to plan his move, so he can blitz forward with Monster Stance and just tap with a dura neg punch.
How much speed does Monster Stance amp? Does he literally have to make a stance? Also, how fast would his movement speed be to cross the 5-meter gap?

As for the dura neg punch, while he doesn't have resistance to dura neg, his damage reduction specifically counters any sort of internal damage thanks to his exoskeleton (before considering the fact it reduces overall damage in general). And that's assuming it hits, since Shadowmoon's enhanced senses + extrasensory perception combo is akin to pseudo-analytical prediction, similar to the likes of Toji and Maki due to picking up on the environment the opponent is affecting, rather than the opponent themselves. AKA, he ain't no slouch either.

EDIT: I forgor the main problem Yu has to face about TK: The fact that the TK itself is invisible (because funni force).
 
How much speed does Monster Stance amp?
It's boosts Yu's speed to such an extent that it can instantly blitz people who have the same slow-mo perception as he does. As in, it moves so fast they can't see any of it. It also progressively gets even faster than that the more he attacks while using it, so he can basically chain it into any of his attacks.
Does he literally have to make a stance
No, he just has to bend forward then charge. It's not like an actual "stance" it's more like a position.
Also, how fast would his movement speed be to cross the 5-meter
The average human running speed is 5 m/s brah, they ain't that far away.

As for the dura neg punch, while he doesn't have resistance to dura neg, his damage reduction specifically counters any sort of internal damage thanks to his exoskeleton (before considering the fact it reduces overall damage in gener
If it's about durability then Yu's dura neg works on people so durable in comparison to him that him trying to hit them is like a normal person trying to punch an iron wall. He also has a massive scaling chain above his value, being so much higher than 0.015 tons that it's like comparing an infant to a pro boxer.

And that's assuming it hits, since Shadowmoon's enhanced senses + extrasensory perception combo is akin to pseudo-analytical prediction, similar to the likes of Toji and Maki due to picking up on the environment the opponent is affecting, rather than the opponent themselves. AKA, he ain't no slouch either.
Well Yu has actual analytical prediction that lets him see several steps ahead, which is progressively getting sharper due to his AD, so they are not exactly equals on this front.

I forgor the main problem Yu has to face about TK: The fact that the TK itself is invisible
Duh. The point is if he can just avoid Shadow's line of sight/hand movement it shouldn't really matter. He's starting the fight out for blood.
 
Ignore that. It keeps showing up in my text box because ads keep clipping into it.
 
It's boosts Yu's speed to such an extent that it can instantly blitz people who have the same slow-mo perception as he does. As in, it moves so fast they can't see any of it. It also progressively gets even faster than that the more he attacks while using it, so he can basically chain it into any of his attacks.
The average human running speed is 5 m/s brah, they ain't that far away.
Noted

No, he just has to bend forward then charge. It's not like an actual "stance" it's more like a position.
I think this would just trigger the impending dangers aspect of his alarm point extrasensory perception, ticking him off in an instant to initiate TK spam.

If it's about durability then Yu's dura neg works on people so durable in comparison to him that him trying to hit them is like a normal person trying to punch an iron wall. He also has a massive scaling chain above his value, being so much higher than 0.015 tons that it's like comparing an infant to a pro boxer.
Nah man, I'm referring to this. His armor is specifically able to nullify internal damage, which Yu's punches do, irrespective of durability. Other overall kinds of damage just gets reduced. Scaling chain seems fine, though Shadowmoon does upscale from Black Sun enough to be considered more powerful than his counterpart. Since he's just doing punches too, Shadowmoon can easily regenerate from his hits. Not to mention the crazy ass stamina he shares with Black Sun to the point they barely flinch from removing their own grasshopper legs to be used as swords, as well as slashing each other to near death. Shadowmoon would be staying up for a long time in this fight.

Well Yu has actual analytical prediction that lets him see several steps ahead, which is progressively getting sharper due to his AD, so they are not exactly equals on this front.
It's an entirely different kind in comparison to what Yu has. Shadowmoon's able to passively detect attacks so that he can retaliate, as well as being able to perceive ones he can't see. So while he can't 'see' several steps ahead, he'd be able to defend himself rather easily.

Duh. The point is if he can just avoid Shadow's line of sight/hand movement it shouldn't really matter. He's starting the fight out for blood.
I just realised the second problem Yu has to face: How would Yu (heheh) know that his opponent would have TK? Sure, him raising his hand is suspect in and of itself, but in his eyes, it could be a taunt, or a preparation for a punch. By your statements, he's just going to charge in, only to meet the TK face-first.
 
I think this would just trigger the impending dangers aspect of his alarm point extrasensory perception, ticking him off in an instant to initiate TK spam.
Isn't he doing that anyways since it's his standard tactic? Either way Yu is still seeing all of his movements as basically stationary and he also has his own inherent danger sense, so he still has the advantage here.
Nah man, I'm referring to this. His armor is specifically able to nullify internal damage, which Yu's punches do, irrespective of durability. Other overall kinds of damage just gets reduced.
Well the scan says reducing OR nullifying, so it's clearly not an infallible ability. Is it ever brought up in the story itself? If not I don't really think this is enough to stop Yu's piercing, especially when it's not only incredibly potent but Yu also just has a massive AP advantage when it comes to scaling. The scan also attributes this to the super-hardened nature of the exoskeleton rather than some ability that specifically nullifies internal damage, leading me to believe it's just a really hard exoskeleton. And if Yu can dura neg him all it really takes is one shot to the head to win.
It's an entirely different kind in comparison to what Yu has. Shadowmoon's able to passively detect attacks so that he can retaliate, as well as being able to perceive ones he can't see. So while he can't 'see' several steps ahead, he'd be able to defend himself rather easily.
What does "passively detect" mean here? Like, through extrasensory perception? I don't see how this helps against Yu, his attacks are not literally invisible, they are just incredibly fast and precise. Yu's timing and angles are also difficult to predict so even if he knows he's coming, like, he still has to make the conscious decisions and have the decision making skills to target Yu before Yu just one taps him.
I just realised the second problem Yu has to face: How would Yu (heheh) know that his opponent would have TK? Sure, him raising his hand is suspect in and of itself, but in his eyes, it could be a taunt, or a preparation for a punch. By your statements, he's just going to charge in, only to meet the TK face-first.
The charge is a speed amp, Shadowmoon would be blitzed before he even thought to use TK. He also has danger sense so he's going to know "this is bad i need to get out of the way."
 
his own inherent danger sense
He also has danger sense so he's going to know "this is bad i need to get out of the way."
How would his danger sense assume that a truly invisible and intangible attack is incoming? I get that his shit would alert him during melee shenanigans, but I don't see how he'd be notified, let alone dodge a TK wall before it's too late. Sure, raising the hand might tip him off. But then what? What attack would he assume without knowing the existence of Shadowmoon's TK. Unless anything remotely supernatural in that sense has happened, his danger sense (and by extension, his ANPR) might tip him off to the wrong knowledge of his attack.
Actually, even the small action of tilting his hand is enough to trigger TK, which makes it even more difficult for him to assume how he'd be attacking with such unorthodox action.

Well the scan says reducing OR nullifying, so it's clearly not an infallible ability. Is it ever brought up in the story itself? If not I don't really think this is enough to stop Yu's piercing, especially when it's not only incredibly potent but Yu also just has a massive AP advantage when it comes to scaling. The scan also attributes this to the super-hardened nature of the exoskeleton rather than some ability that specifically nullifies internal damage, leading me to believe it's just a really hard exoskeleton. And if Yu can dura neg him all it really takes is one shot to the head to win.
It's actually kinda both, nullifying internal damage is an official scan thing, while the reduction of overall damage is prevalent throughout the series. Take the final fight of Black Sun and Shadowmoon for example, where they shrug off each other's punches relatively easily. Wounds only starts to show once they slash each other, tho it's more thanks to their swords being automatically coated with energy. Despite this, they're still kicking it without any fuss due to the combination of their hardiness and the damage reduction. All in all, his dura neg would be nullified, and his overall damage would be reduced against Shadowmoon, and that isn't even considering the regen yet.

What does "passively detect" mean here? Like, through extrasensory perception? I don't see how this helps against Yu, his attacks are not literally invisible, they are just incredibly fast and precise. Yu's timing and angles are also difficult to predict so even if he knows he's coming, like, he still has to make the conscious decisions and have the decision making skills to target Yu before Yu just one taps him.
What it says on the tin. Any oncoming attacks would be passively detected beforehand (hence, the source of the attack), so that he can appropriately retaliate to it, no matter where it comes from. His kaijin key ES range was able to sense Black Sun from far away immediately after he transformed for the first time, a feat he shares with other kaijin of similar level. His Rider Key enhanced ES range is comparable to Black Sun, who could sense him coming to his location from very far. Yu's fighting a guy who can ES + ESP 360 degrees with huge coverage. And all he needs to do is just TK or like jump higher than Yu can ever catch him and AOE TK from there.
 
How would his danger sense assume that a truly invisible and intangible attack is incoming? I get that his shit would alert him during melee shenanigans, but I don't see how he'd be notified, let alone dodge a TK wall before it's too late. Sure, raising the hand might tip him off. But then what? What attack would he assume without knowing the existence of Shadowmoon's TK. Unless anything remotely supernatural in that sense has happened, his danger sense (and by extension, his ANPR) might tip him off to the wrong knowledge of his attack.
It doesn't tell him that TK happens, that's obviously not how it works. It just alerts him that "this is bad, whatever this is is bad, I need to move." It's not an actual solid sense of danger from knowing a quantifiable threat. It's a sense of urgency born intuition, which doesn't need him to KNOW what the danger is. He just needs to know that there is danger and plan accordingly. And since, again, Shadowmoon is literally stationary from Yu's perspective, even the minute action of tilting one's hand would be stretched onto several, several moments for Yu. He has plenty of time to recognize that something is off.
It's actually kinda both, nullifying internal damage is an official scan thing, while the reduction of overall damage is prevalent throughout the series. Take the final fight of Black Sun and Shadowmoon for example, where they shrug off each other's punches relatively easily. Wounds only starts to show once they slash each other, tho it's more thanks to their swords being automatically coated with energy. Despite this, they're still kicking it without any fuss due to the combination of their hardiness and the damage reduction. All in all, his dura neg would be nullified, and his overall damage would be reduced against Shadowmoon, and that isn't even considering the regen yet.
This really does not prove anything. The only scan you have to prove that the dura neg is nullified is a vague scan that attributes any nullification to a raw toughess that Yu can easily nullify, not any supernatural ability. I asked for you to show me where it negates dura neg, particularly dura neg on Yu's level, but you haven't done that, so there's really no reason for me to believe that Yu can't end this fight in a single blitz attack.
What it says on the tin. Any oncoming attacks would be passively detected beforehand (hence, the source of the attack), so that he can appropriately retaliate to it, no matter where it comes from. His kaijin key ES range was able to sense Black Sun from far away immediately after he transformed for the first time, a feat he shares with other kaijin of similar level. His Rider Key enhanced ES range is comparable to Black Sun, who could sense him coming to his location from very far. Yu's fighting a guy who can ES + ESP 360 degrees with huge coverage. And all he needs to do is just TK or like jump higher than Yu can ever catch him and AOE TK from there.
Okay, so like, he detects it beforehand. And does what? He still has to actually retaliate. He's fighting a guy with good ESP, sure, but he's not fighting a guy who with that ESP has ever shown the ability to outmove an attack that can giga blitz people from oblivion at a distance and that progressively gets faster. You have to understand that if Yu is able to get off one punch in Monster Stance, that's it. The attacks will just keep coming at speeds Shadowmoon can't ever hope to detect, growing faster and faster, stronger and stronger with each passing moment. He'll be being bombarded with attacks from all sides that he simply lacks the processing speed to properly retaliate against until he falls.

So like, you have to not only still prove that Shadowmoon can nullify Yu's dura neg with these flimsy scans but also that he can make a decision to use TK faster than a guy who sees every tiny movement he makes like it's being stretched off into eternity just from how fast he processes information. Yu will always be a step ahead of him because of this, no matter how well Shadowmoon thinks he can detect attacks. Meaning the only way this works is if, instant the fight starts, he begins with TK, no second thoughts, no pondering, just immediate telekinetic attack on reflex, but Shadowmoon doesn't have instincts that would compel him to automatically take any particular path in battle, so there's going to be a gap where Yu will be able to close the distance. And once he closes the distance, he kinda just... wins.
 
t doesn't tell him that TK happens, that's obviously not how it works. It just alerts him that "this is bad, whatever this is is bad, I need to move." It's not an actual solid sense of danger from knowing a quantifiable threat. It's a sense of urgency born intuition, which doesn't need him to KNOW what the danger is. He just needs to know that there is danger and plan accordingly. And since, again, Shadowmoon is literally stationary from Yu's perspective, even the minute action of tilting one's hand would be stretched onto several, several moments for Yu. He has plenty of time to recognize that something is off.
I'll just chalk it up as it being similar to Shadowmoon's own ES stuff, since it's basically alarms blaring at sources of danger. Fair enough on that end.
As for his perception and reaction, as long as it isn't whatever Alice Fuji has, it's not going to save him from getting vader choked or TK AOE into his face.

This really does not prove anything. The only scan you have to prove that the dura neg is nullified is a vague scan that attributes any nullification to a raw toughess that Yu can easily nullify, not any supernatural ability. I asked for you to show me where it negates dura neg, particularly dura neg on Yu's level, but you haven't done that, so there's really no reason for me to believe that Yu can't end this fight in a single blitz attack.
On the one hand, you're right in that the scan about internal damage doesn't have any showings in the actual episodes. If anything, I only showed the damage reduction part, which is actually good enough to tank his attacks for a few times. Even then, Yu doesn't really have an answer to his regen save for the heart and brain thing, which then circles back to the damage reduction argument.

On the other hand, the scan is literally WoG as it comes from an official website for Kamen Rider, so we can't really ignore that now, can we? Unless that specific scan is contradicted in the story, I don't see why it can't be used. Even if it isn't fully nullifying his attacks, he'd still won't be able to punch as strong as he normally can. Likely it depends on the type of damage (with punches being shrugged off, while ripping, tearing and slashes being merely reduced).

Speaking of dura neg, Yu's dura neg (even when greater) still fall into durability mitigation, rather than full on negging. And said mitigation gets mitigated by Shadowmoon's damage reduction.

Okay, so like, he detects it beforehand. And does what? He still has to actually retaliate. He's fighting a guy with good ESP, sure, but he's not fighting a guy who with that ESP has ever shown the ability to outmove an attack that can giga blitz people from oblivion at a distance and that progressively gets faster. You have to understand that if Yu is able to get off one punch in Monster Stance, that's it. The attacks will just keep coming at speeds Shadowmoon can't ever hope to detect, growing faster and faster, stronger and stronger with each passing moment. He'll be being bombarded with attacks from all sides that he simply lacks the processing speed to properly retaliate against until he falls.
Actually, what's essentially stopping Shadowmoon from just... jumping? He can literally jump 33 meters into the air, far higher than Yu can even touch him. Even if his monster stance allows him to land a hit, at best he's just going to be punching his feet mid-jump. This just sets up an overhead TK that just does Yu in. All the blitz and fast speed amps in the world doesn't let him jump high, lol.

In the situation where he stays on the ground (unlikely due to ES + ESP), I don't think Yu's ora ora ora is enough to stop him from popping a TK, especially since he's coming right at him as he's tilting his hand or raising it. He's getting a few hits in before getting served if he goes straight in front of him first thing. Trying to detour and flank him would waste Yu precious time, irrespective of his speed.

Meaning the only way this works is if, instant the fight starts, he begins with TK, no second thoughts, no pondering, just immediate telekinetic attack on reflex, but Shadowmoon doesn't have instincts that would compel him to automatically take any particular path in battle, so there's going to be a gap where Yu will be able to close the distance. And once he closes the distance, he kinda just... wins.
Except that's been his go-to move ever since he unlocked his TK, especially against someone he considers inferior. Using TK is like a no-brainer to him. There's absolutely no reason he's ever going to hesitate using his bread and butter.

In the VSBW world:
ya-gotta-go-balls-out-v0-mtxr27o7vhoe1.jpg
 
As for his perception and reaction, as long as it isn't whatever Alice Fuji has, it's not going to save him from getting vader choked or TK AOE into his face.
At this distance, it can definitely save him. Even if he can't actively speed himself up to that level, all he needs to do to activate Monster Stance is bend over a bit and then attack. Shadowmoon will still be pondering his first move while Yu already has the initiative. It's only really disadvantageous for Yu if they are any further than this.
Even then, Yu doesn't really have an answer to his regen save for the heart and brain thing, which then circles back to the damage reduction arargument.
Yu's a boxer, he hits people in the head, his brain is the first target lol.
On the other hand, the scan is literally WoG as it comes from an official website for Kamen Rider, so we can't really ignore that now, can we? Unless that specific scan is contradicted in the story, I don't see why it can't be used
I didn't say to ignore it. I said it's not enough. Yu is significantly stronger and has dura neg that can hurt people his base attacks cannot even make budge. The scan is valid, the damage reduction simply isn't strong enough to avoid a one-hit KO.
Actually, what's essentially stopping Shadowmoon from just... jumping?
He's too slow and Monster Stance is so fast it blitzes people who have similar slow-mo perception to Yu. Yu will hit him before he can even blink.



In the situation where he stays on the ground (unlikely due to ES + ESP), I don't think Yu's ora
It doesn't need to be an ora ora. One hit to the head and he dies instantly. His dura neg is death for people stronger than him, Shadowmoon is much weaker.
Except that's been his go-to move ever since he unlocked his TK, especially against someone he considers inferior. Using TK is like a no-brainer to him. There's absolutely no reason he's ever going to hesitate using his bread and butter.
In those instances he's still kinda just standing there for a few moments before using TK. Not to mention in the second clip it doesn't look like he immediately used it since he was on the floor against that guy but then ragdolled him. So like, why did he look pressed if his first, instantaneous decision in any fight is a telekinetic ragdoll.
 
Short response, since I feel sleepy and will give a big one tomorrow.
In those instances he's still kinda just standing there for a few moments before using TK. Not to mention in the second clip it doesn't look like he immediately used it since he was on the floor against that guy but then ragdolled him. So like, why did he look pressed if his first, instantaneous decision in any fight is a telekinetic ragdoll.
First scan is the basic etiquette of waiting for your enemies to transform in toku media, so the fight officially only begins upon both parties transforming. Secondly, just because Shadowmoon took his sweet time TKing three guys who are just standing around, doesn't mean he'll leisurely raise his hand when his alarm points are blaring at him to certain danger. Especially against someone that's charging right at him like his life depended on it. His first move is already TKing without hesitation, and this danger just incentivises him to use the faster hand tilt for his TK.
Second scan was me showcasing Shadowmoon immediately using TK when he finally learns he has this ability (or unlocks it, idk the show never makes that clear). He lacked the TK in the early episodes, where he had to fight the monster woman like this, and then he was promptly defeated, leading to the scan where he vader chokes her for the first time.
 
That's all well and good and well but he is literally not fast enough to respond to what his threat sensors tell him. Unless it's completely thought-based.
 
Class M TK GGs. Hell, the sheer force of the TK would probably just splatter Yu off rip. TK is pretty much SM's first move and it significantly outranges Yu.
Person who won the 9-A touranent, low diff.
 
Tell me you didn't read a single argument without telling me you didn't read a single argument. They start literally 5 meters away, range has no factor here. Unless his TK is thought based and he can out-move someone with much higher response time than him than Shadow is getting blitzed no diff and one shot killed. I am voting Yu low-diff, but this fight is nearly a stomp.

EDIT: Also, I just checked the extrasensory perception scan, and I just realized that it says that it tells Shadowmoon of impending dangers but not the exact scale of the danger. This is not at all something that would specifically inform him of the exact strength and speed of Yu's attacks, just that they're dangerous, something he could probably just infer with his normal sight. I don't even know if he would start with the fastest TK movement he possibly could if all his extrasensory perception does in this situation is inform him of the fact that his opponent is dangerous without specific detailing.
 
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At this distance, it can definitely save him. Even if he can't actively speed himself up to that level, all he needs to do to activate Monster Stance is bend over a bit and then attack. Shadowmoon will still be pondering his first move while Yu already has the initiative. It's only really disadvantageous for Yu if they are any further than this.
Except that it is Shadowmoon's-
Wait, this was before my thing about his first move.

Yu's a boxer, he hits people in the head, his brain is the first target lol.
Which circles back to my point about the damage reduction, lol. Even if he can dispatch him quickly with his strength, he still needs to hit a few times more than the guuys he regularly faces that gets OHKOed.

I didn't say to ignore it. I said it's not enough. Yu is significantly stronger and has dura neg that can hurt people his base attacks cannot even make budge. The scan is valid, the damage reduction simply isn't strong enough to avoid a one-hit KO.
I wouldn't really say that Shadowmoon can survive multiple hits from him, but he should be able to tank like one or two punches, aka long enough for him to use his TK.

He's too slow and Monster Stance is so fast it blitzes people who have similar slow-mo perception to Yu. Yu will hit him before he can even blink.
That's all well and good and well but he is literally not fast enough to respond to what his threat sensors tell him. Unless it's completely thought-based.
Yu still has to bend forward to go into monster stance, no? Their combat speeds are still basically the same before he goes into his blitz move. The action of bending alone would kick his ES + ESP into gear, like how Yu would with danger sense for the former's hand raise/tilt. By the time he charges right for him, the TK would already be there to ruin his day.

It doesn't need to be an ora ora. One hit to the head and he dies instantly. His dura neg is death for people stronger than him, Shadowmoon is much weaker.
Actually (and I just found this now), Black Sun should actually upscale his value since he damaged and defeated the old Creation King, who's powerful enough to slice Black Sun's leg off, despite his age. Not only does Shadowmoon already upscale Black Sun, he even tanked an amped finisher from him. While this wouldn't exactly bridge the gap too much, he isn't a slouch either (Also complements his DR).
 
Which circles back to my point about the damage reduction, lol.
Your point is wrong, as we've been over.
I wouldn't really say that Shadowmoon can survive multiple hits from him, but he should be able to tank like one or two punches, aka long enough for him to use his TK.
His regen is mid-low my guy he is not surviving a punch directly striking his brain.
Yu still has to bend forward to go into monster stance, no?
Yes, but there are two ways that he can utilize, one of which requires a significantly less amount of bending. His typical displays of it require him to basically go into a track and field running start, but in this key he kinda just hunches over a tiny bit and then BAM.
action of bending alone would kick his ES + ESP into gear
You probably didn't see my edit of my above post, but I went over the ESP scan and I don't think it is as potent as you imply. It says that he senses impending dangers but not that he has a specific knowledge of the exact level of danger, like whether or not it'll just harm him a bit or immediately kill him. So while he could detect Yu's attacks I don't think he has the ability to specifically quantify the destructive force of it. But as this is simply a guidebook scan, I'd ask if he's shown any uses of ESP in his show that would give the ability more context?
Actually (and I just found this now), Black Sun should actually upscale his value since he damaged and defeated the old Creation King, who's powerful enough to slice Black Sun's leg off, despite his age. Not only does Shadowmoon already upscale Black Sun, he even tanked an amped finisher from him. While this wouldn't exactly bridge the gap too much, he isn't a slouch either (Also complements his DR).
This is good, but like, Yu upscales so much from his 9-A feat that the guy who did it is like an infant being compared to a pro boxer when fighting Yu (actual in-story statement). That's how different Yu is built, the difference is monumental, and Yu's dura neg can basically one-hit kill people who can no-sell his basic attacks if it hits somewhere like the heart or brain or any particularly vital area.
 
You probably didn't see my edit of my above post
Yup, that's new to me, since I was writing this as you made your post to Arkan.

You probably didn't see my edit of my above post, but I went over the ESP scan and I don't think it is as potent as you imply. It says that he senses impending dangers but not that he has a specific knowledge of the exact level of danger, like whether or not it'll just harm him a bit or immediately kill him. So while he could detect Yu's attacks I don't think he has the ability to specifically quantify the destructive force of it. But as this is simply a guidebook scan, I'd ask if he's shown any uses of ESP in his show that would give the ability more context?
Also, I just checked the extrasensory perception scan, and I just realized that it says that it tells Shadowmoon of impending dangers but not the exact scale of the danger. This is not at all something that would specifically inform him of the exact strength and speed of Yu's attacks, just that they're dangerous, something he could probably just infer with his normal sight. I don't even know if he would start with the fastest TK movement he possibly could if all his extrasensory perception does in this situation is inform him of the fact that his opponent is dangerous without specific detailing.
I don't think I've ever insinuated that he'd know how strong Yu is based on his ESP combo. He'd just know that he'll be a danger to him as well as his intent for murder. However, this is where his ES comes in. His antennae can detect subtle changes to the environment like the air currents, and he still retains his kaijin ES for detecting and providing info on vibrations and wind velocity. Yu's moves output a lot of wind and vibrations based on the scans I've seen, which allows him to gauge the overall power and speed he's going at based on the change of wind around them. Not to mention the fact that he can capture the source of an incoming attack (which in this case is Yu preparing a monster stance to attack). The detection of the surrounding environment and its components complement with his ESP, hence the 'ES + ESP' combo that allows him to react to and/or retaliate against enemies. This ES + ESP combo can be evidently seen when Black Sun dodges a TK attack from the Creation King, a feat that no other characters could replicate due to the TK being invisible in nature and being far faster than any other attack in the show due to its near instantaneous nature when used (without considering the hand raise/tilt). Shadowmoon upscales Black Sun's performance, so his one is way more potent.

As I've said again, Shadowmoon does his TK regardless of the danger he's in as his first move, and the fact that he's going to know Yu means business would further prove it.

This conveniently explains your post below:
Yes, but there are two ways that he can utilize, one of which requires a significantly less amount of bending. His typical displays of it require him to basically go into a track and field running start, but in this key he kinda just hunches over a tiny bit and then BAM.


Your point is wrong, as we've been over.
His regen is mid-low my guy he is not surviving a punch directly striking his brain.
This is good, but like, Yu upscales so much from his 9-A feat that the guy who did it is like an infant being compared to a pro boxer when fighting Yu (actual in-story statement). That's how different Yu is built, the difference is monumental, and Yu's dura neg can basically one-hit kill people who can no-sell his basic attacks if it hits somewhere like the heart or brain or any particularly vital area.
I actually stopped referring to the regen in my latest post.

To give you a perspective of how resilient Shadowmoon is, lower level Kaijins can survive literally having their organs ripped out (HEAVY NSFW), and higher level Kaijins can fight even after being shot several times, which is relevant since Yu's punches are described as piercing like a drill. His Kaijin form already bounces bullets without any effort, and by his Rider key, he has super-hardened exoskeleton to reduce damage from hits. Unless Yu has been shown to ******* kill medieval knights with decked out heavy armour, his punches still get affected by damage reduction, since the exoskeleton is considered as armor. The heart and brain areas may be more vulnerable spots, so he obviously might not be able to tank it as much as he normally does.

Also, the scan and profile use the word 'ability' rather than straight-up power or strength, which is a weird phrasing to use since it'd be more for the performance, skill and moveset the fighters would have (which I can see) than how strong one guy's punch is. It's also not easy to see (from an outsider's perspective) how he even upscales other fighters when his punches are the only one that negates limited durability, at least in the profiles.

I am voting Yu low-diff, but this fight is nearly a stomp.
Also, didn't see this due to that edit thing, so vote counted.

I might as well vote for SM now since most of our arguments are getting circular.
 
I don't think I've ever insinuated that he'd know how strong Yu is based on his ESP combo. He'd just know that he'll be a danger to him as well as his intent for murder. However, this is where his ES comes in. His antennae can detect subtle changes to the environment like the air currents, and he still retains his kaijin ES for detecting and providing info on vibrations and wind velocity. Yu's moves output a lot of wind and vibrations based on the scans I've seen, which allows him to gauge the overall power and speed he's going at based on the change of wind around them. Not to mention the fact that he can capture the source of an incoming attack (which in this case is Yu preparing a monster stance to attack). The detection of the surrounding environment and its components complement with his ESP, hence the 'ES + ESP' combo that allows him to react to and/or retaliate against enemies. This ES + ESP combo can be evidently seen when Black Sun dodges a TK attack from the Creation King, a feat that no other characters could replicate due to the TK being invisible in nature and being far faster than any other attack in the show due to its near instantaneous nature when used (without considering the hand raise/tilt). Shadowmoon upscales Black Sun's performance, so his one is way more potent
This is not really the point. The point is that if he has no reason to pull out his winning move as fast as possible, if he just recognizes some vague danger like he would in any one of his enemies, then Yu is going to have several seconds of leeway in which he can just blitz. Analyzing the vibrations of his moves will do only so much, he can't respond to them if he's too slow. This only works under the insinuation that he survives at least one blow and then has a chance to fight on, but as I'll illustrate below, if one this is still unlikely.

To give you a perspective of how resilient Shadowmoon is, lower level Kaijins can survive literally having their organs ripped out (HEAVY NSFW), and higher level Kaijins can fight even after being shot several times, which is relevant since Yu's punches are described as piercing like a drill. His Kaijin form already bounces bullets without any effort, and by his Rider key, he has super-hardened exoskeleton to reduce damage from hits. Unless Yu has been shown to ******* kill medieval knights with decked out heavy armour, his punches still get affected by damage reduction, since the exoskeleton is considered as armor. The heart and brain areas may be more vulnerable spots, so he obviously might not be able to tank it as much as he normally does.
This is all good, but the most vital organs are a lot different from any of that. If Yu hits Shadow's brain in just the right way and he can't recover from it, then the after-effects, even if he does survive, will be severe. He won't even have time to think of using TK because his brain is getting pummeled. You have to realize that the brain is literally everything, it's your most vital organ, somebody a lot stronger than you striking it directly isn't just going to tickle you it's going to give you severe brain damage and that's going to make fighting a lot harder even if you do somehow survive.
Also, the scan and profile use the word 'ability' rather than straight-up power or strength, which is a weird phrasing to use since it'd be more for the performance, skill and moveset the fighters would have (which I can see) than how strong one guy's punch is. It's also not easy to see (from an outsider's perspective) how he even upscales other fighters when his punches are the only one that negates limited
Yu one-shots Viktor while not even having a solid footing on the ground to anchor his punch, basically hitting him with his feet off of the ground and still knocking him out in less than one second. Yu's punches are always portrayed as the strongest in the verse besides Aaron simply from their raw destructive power, not just dura neg, so when his superiority in comparison to other fighters is noted, they are talking about attack power as well.
I might as well vote for SM now since most of our arguments are getting circular.
If you mean we've been going in circles, yes technically, but that's just how debates work. This isn't a circular argument, we just disagree with one another, so I'd appreciate it if instead of just voting and leaving you'd continue to try and refute me if you can. But if not that's fine, I am just saying, don't leave the debate half baked.
 
Place my vote for Rider for now at least, may change my mind down the line if something that changes my minds comes up.
 
This is not really the point. The point is that if he has no reason to pull out his winning move as fast as possible, if he just recognizes some vague danger like he would in any one of his enemies, then Yu is going to have several seconds of leeway in which he can just blitz. Analyzing the vibrations of his moves will do only so much, he can't respond to them if he's too slow. This only works under the insinuation that he survives at least one blow and then has a chance to fight on, but as I'll illustrate below, if one this is still unlikely.
Wdym if he has no reason? I've already shown you his first move is to literally perform a TK move, regardless of the danger he faces, since that's his bread and butter. No thought, just obliterate his opponent. It isn't just analysing the vibrations, it's a mix of the change in air, the source of the attack, the danger, and the murderous intent. All that is picked up the moment Yu tries to start off his Monster Stance, and might I remind you again that Shadowmoon would be in mid-action by the time he goes for a blitz. To add something new, he can still use TK while moving or jumping, so he can still react to as he retaliates with a TK.

This is all good, but the most vital organs are a lot different from any of that. If Yu hits Shadow's brain in just the right way and he can't recover from it, then the after-effects, even if he does survive, will be severe. He won't even have time to think of using TK because his brain is getting pummeled. You have to realize that the brain is literally everything, it's your most vital organ, somebody a lot stronger than you striking it directly isn't just going to tickle you it's going to give you severe brain damage and that's going to make fighting a lot harder even if you do somehow survive.
True, true. But counterpoint.
Mid-movement of his arm. At most, he can likely survive a hit, and release the TK from his arm.
This would otherwise make sense if Shadowmoon just unceremoniously stays in place.

If you mean we've been going in circles, yes technically, but that's just how debates work. This isn't a circular argument, we just disagree with one another, so I'd appreciate it if instead of just voting and leaving you'd continue to try and refute me if you can. But if not that's fine, I am just saying, don't leave the debate half baked.
I may say that, but that doesn't really mean I'd leave or stop refuting, that's only reserved for the truly shitty debates I've gone through (though I can't remember actually ever stopping back then). If anything, I'd be disrespectful if I do this, since this is one of the more civilised matches I've been a part of. My replies may be slow, and I might type less, but in no way am I running for the hills. A debate is a debate, even if we ultimately agree to disagree.
 
Wdym if he has no reason? I've already shown you his first move is to literally perform a TK move, regardless of the danger he faces, since that's his bread and butter
I meant him specifically doing it as fast as possible, like when he just twisted his arm and immediately force choked a guy. The other times you've shown me is of him deliberately not doing this against multiple enemies that look like monsters, let alone against Yu, who is just a normal guy who's buff. He slowly raises his arm thinking he's gonna force choke Yu and then bam, gets hit. It's not a matter of if he uses it, I know he'll use it, just if he'll use it with the intent to instantly kill rather than what he normally does.
True, true. But counterpoint.
Mid-movement of his arm. At most, he can likely survive a hit, and release the TK from his arm.
This would otherwise make sense if Shadowmoon just unceremoniously stays in place.
I won't deny that he might be able to do this, but the thing is Yu can chain Monster Stance into his other attacks, maintaining and constantly boosting the speed. So he's not just gonna go for one hit at that speed and stop, he's gonna keep swerving from all sides and bombarding him with stronger and faster attacks until he eventually ends it. So if Yu isn't instantly force-choked he kinda just dances around Shadow.
 
I meant him specifically doing it as fast as possible, like when he just twisted his arm and immediately force choked a guy. The other times you've shown me is of him deliberately not doing this against multiple enemies that look like monsters, let alone against Yu, who is just a normal guy who's buff. He slowly raises his arm thinking he's gonna force choke Yu and then bam, gets hit. It's not a matter of if he uses it, I know he'll use it, just if he'll use it with the intent to instantly kill rather than what he normally does.
The context for the slow push versus the fast choke is kinda different.

(I bolded the scans that have nsfw material)

He knew the three monsters are very weak compared to him (by this point, SM and BS are the top of the food chain), and he was supposed to get something from Black Sun, so he just used the necessary force to just defeat them non-lethally. He even knows like two of those three monsters personally. And those three never really fights him in the end. This is notable because he's also usually bloodthirsty to his own kind too.

For the fast choke, he also knows that guy, but he has much more disdain for him than anyone else. That guy's also a Kaijin.

You would be right that he might ponder about whether to kill Yu here (like in the clip where he contemplates whether to shoot the soldier or not), but unfortunately that would only be applicable for his Kaijin key. His transformation into a fully-fledged Rider is by killing an actual human after said human's prejudice led to the death of a child Kaijin, and so by his Rider key, he's too far gone to the point that he deems Kaijins superior to humans, and would crush any human like a bug without hesitation, strong or not.

I won't deny that he might be able to do this, but the thing is Yu can chain Monster Stance into his other attacks, maintaining and constantly boosting the speed. So he's not just gonna go for one hit at that speed and stop, he's gonna keep swerving from all sides and bombarding him with stronger and faster attacks until he eventually ends it. So if Yu isn't instantly force-choked he kinda just dances around Shadow.
Shadowmoon would still be able to TK him (especially mid-movement) since he was somehow able to lodge his sword into Black Sun's abdomen upon being kicked. Keep in mind that his sword had been disarmed to the side a few seconds prior. Yu might as well only land one or even two hits before being hit by the TK head on.
 
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