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I Was Caught In A Non-Existent Beginning but that World is Prologue

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Well if Shiro did get her NEP aspect type 5 plot based, then she can only be interacted with plot manipulation that CAN affect NEP aspect type 5 plot based

Basically untouchable really
 
Noneless21 said:
Looking through Fate's profile again, doesn't she have power nullification due to Shiro's quasi blessing? I dont see it in her profile

Also looking through Yhwach and Fate's profile side by side and comparing their abilities, we really need to expand on how Fate uses her power, but that'll be difficult for an obvious reason

So really it's kinda mismatch, especially when they debate that Yhwach can null Fate's power because of this

So yeah
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Uhhhh...I think you posted it on the wrong thread....
 
Fantric said:
The immortality itself doesn't grant it. I'm basically looking at this like, a story is a page in the book and Epilogue is the phenomenon that closes it. The end of a story is the end of the existence itself so "closing" the stories basically means closing the book, Epilogue isn't exactly the book, it's the phenomenon that closes it and to close the book you need to be outside of it.

I do get where you're coming from tho, it certainly seems to be just R>F difference tho imo it can be both, since we know there's nothingness before the story's beginning, why can't there be nothingness after it's end, especially when we're told that existence itself ends when a story ends. But yea, comparing Prologue and Epilogue feels wierd but.... just makes sense? Honestly, this thing even has a bit of weight just cuz Prologue came from Epilogue.

We know FP Prologue can affect Omnipotent and Omniscient beings and UE Kuro was able to damage Makina's main body so there's that. Prologue was also stated to be THE strongest after Epilogue but that was way back in the past tbh but the argument can still be made exactly cuz we dunno the full power of Prologue.
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The Epilogue is stated to be the phenomenon of a story's end, and its stated to be located at the end of all stories (Chapter 1267) so I do agree that if the Prologue is the nothingness before everything, The Epilogue is the nothingness after. The Epilogue lacking a plot aspect is a little dubious to me though, and is looking more so like a R>F argument rather than a NEP one.

Also the fact that Shiro is the Epilogue's consciousness disproves it lacking a mind, looking at it, I also think that's probably iffy for Kuro as well.
 
Celestial_Pegasus said:
The Epilogue is stated to be the phenomenon of a story's end, and its stated to be located at the end of all stories (Chapter 1267) so I do agree that if the Prologue is the nothingness before everything, The Epilogue is the nothingness after. The Epilogue lacking a plot aspect is a little dubious to me though, and is looking more so like a R>F argument rather than a NEP one.

Also the fact that Shiro is the Epilogue's consciousness disproves it lacking a mind, looking at it, I also think that's probably iffy for Kuro as well.
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The Epilogue Lacking plot makes more sense to now tbh. The R>F argument is basically seeing the story as a reader, being at the end of all stories doesn't really make it R>F. The Epilogue is located when all the stories, basically all of existence ends, that's where Epilogue is. I think this should honestly be enought tbh. Like you being located where all of existence ends, that's pretty straightforward nep imo plus here we have stories as well, so being at a point where the existence and stories doesn't exist should give you a pretty blatant plot NEP.

I wasn't exactly trying for mind expect anyway so eh 🤷
 
Celestial_Pegasus said:
Also the fact that Shiro is the Epilogue's consciousness disproves it lacking a mind, looking at it, I also think that's probably iffy for Kuro as well.
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Shiro is simply a consciousness/avatar born from Epilogue, but that does not retroactively prove the Epilogue itself has an existent mind of its own due to her. The Epilogue can certainly continue to exist without Shiro as it has before she came to being.

But the OP isn't proposing aspect 3 as a quick check, so this argument won't matter 😓
 
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About Epilogue having the mind, it can surely work tbh like Shiro and Epilogue are treated as different right? Shiro is the consciousness but Epilogue is still there, a different entity from Shiro so Shiro existing shouldn't really matter to it tbh.

Might try for this in a later crt tbh.
 
I mean but the epilogue being at the end of all stories is part of its r>f though? Is that not the whole premise of the epilogue...the end of everything, because it's the "'reader that can close the book". The reader is/can end the story. The reader is now NEP for that? They operate under a different framework (currently high 1A), and are an abstract high 1A ability. A plot manipulation based, high 1A ability, that's different from the 1-A "'stories" that can be closed, and is disconnected from them basically. Rather than being blatant NEP seems like blatant R>F once you don't ignore legit every other piece of context used for it.


I guess Pegasus has a point with the consciousness part for the epilogue though, if it legit developed one and got rizzed up by Kaito somehow. Though mind=soul still kinda valid if you lack that maybe for the prologue? Idk
 
I mean, yesn't? Doesn't the R>F part come from Epilogue seeing everything as a story and being a reader? That's enough for blatant R>F. Yes, it works on a different framework entirely but I don't understand how that prevents from it existing in a place that lacks existence?

Plus it's not entirely disconnected from the stories to begin with lmao. It can still die when all the stories end, so the framework of these stories shouldn't be different. If we look at this, it kinda makes even more sense for it to have NEP as it exists in a place where all the stories end.
 
Fantric said:
Plus it's not entirely disconnected from the stories to begin with lmao. It can still die when all the stories end, so the framework of these stories shouldn't be different. If we look at this, it kinda makes even more sense for it to have NEP as it exists in a place where all the stories end.
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Um, you got this part wrong, however. Epilogue is disconnected from all stories. One metaphor used by the author is that Epilogue is the viewer looking at a television where Shiro is a character in the show including her enemy. Epilogue will just turn off the television, clearly defining it as beyond the boundaries of what goes on in the television. Another statement by the author on twitter is that Epilogue exists beyond the story of YuuShou itself, lmao. And it's not Epilogue that will die when all stories disappear, only Shiro. She instinctively felt that she will die only after all stories are gone. Once alone, she'll use Epilogue on herself and that'll be it. This can't be fulfilled because of Last Story that will revive her even after Epilogue erases her.
 
Here is the thing about it not being disconnected from stories, at least to my understanding. If you're not disconnected from these stories, a sortve differentiation, then the current rating for it would make less sense. Whether it's "beyond" the stories, or "the end" (idk probably same thing here). It kinda has to be working under a different framework, like it's supposed to be incomparable to everything else. An abstract being who does these things, also like legacy said above.



That's another thing for the profile though. Last story appears to be a thing with Shiro. She can't be ended unless stories end. Idk if that means epilogue just doesn't have type 8 immortality neg or whatever, but that's beyond this NEP thread so...all ik is the stories thing is one of the first evidences for shiros current rating. We'll see
 
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Type 5 still wouldn't make much sense, she becomes the beginning of a story, she is still apart of it. Infact, her ability literally manipulates the story to benefit her within it...

I don't think this is lacking a plot lol
 
Honestly Epilogue having NEP aspect type 5 is more logical because everything that got Epilogue'd all vanish without a trace because "their story ended" imo
 
It's pretty clear to me tbh.

Kuro is the beginning of story + the concept of nothingness. For example, basically there's a void, a singularity suddenly appears and creates the universe. Here, Kuro is the void(the concept of nothingness) and the story is the universe, Prologue manipulating the story is like the singularity that created universe.

Prologue just doesn't manipulate the story, it also creates them. It's literally described as "generating possibilities" that she can manipulate however she wants, hence my singularity example.
 
it looks like she lacks plot as much as a real world entity isn't a fictional being. So basically there's no NEP with a plot aspect going on here.
 
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If the type 5 aspect is not plot what would it be? Some general thing?

And yeah comment above that one makes sense
 
Only thing I could think of is some reasoning where because Kuro is essentially missing the fundamental aspect of her being, as it's nonexistent, she doesn't have a fundamental aspect of being, which is kinda weird?

We know in verse that records exists of each person in their worlds, and erasing that means it will be as if that person never existed, and there is a whole entire parallel worlds where everything is made of data, the Prologue being the nothingness before everything, could be argued to mean it doesn't have information, but yea type 5 is a weird argument to me.

As for Shiro, the Epilogue lacks a statement about being nothingness so I think it's harder to argue NEP, except for the fact the Prologue came from the Epilogue, as originally Shiro and Kuro were 1 being.
 
Now that I'm rereading the NEP page tbh, I think type 3 would be better for Kuro. We can get aspect 3 for her too that way.
 
Aspect type 1,2, 4 seem to be the strongest cases. 5 I guess is just a general lacking of a fundamental (other) that wdk?

And what, nature type 3?
 
Yea, 1,2 and 4 are good, although 1 needs some working. Type 5 is....ehhh need to rework it entirely tbh.

Yea, nature type 3. We know Prologue is non existent but Kuro is ehh. Prologue as the nothingness at the beginning of all stories should be non existent to everything the story has as well, but Kuro, I'm not so sure about that. So for Kuro at least, I think she can just make herself non existent, hence the black smoke stuff as already discussed in this same thread. Prologue will be type 1 tho, so....I dunno, might have to make a saperate key for Prologue lmao.
 
I think this thread is good to go? Everything except aspect 5 seems to have been accepted.

So, what about Shiro? Do we have enough votes for her?
 
No real consensus as far as I can see, just a bunch of ideas being thrown around, only thing we can say so far is Kuro has NEP, but not clear what types and aspects, meanwhile it seems to be rejected for Shiro.

NEP is a pain to deal with, and that being the case this thread might just sit here for a while, which is unfortunate, since atm I can't make any new CRT's unless one of the 3 CRT's is done.

But lets try some staff I suppose @Theglassman12 @Damage3245 @Agnaa @FinePoint
 
Celestial_Pegasus said:
No real consensus as far as I can see, just a bunch of ideas being thrown around, only thing we can say so far is Kuro has NEP, but not clear what types and aspects, meanwhile it seems to be rejected for Shiro.

NEP is a pain to deal with, and that being the case this thread might just sit here for a while, which is unfortunate, since atm I can't make any new CRT's unless one of the 3 CRT's is done.

But lets try some staff I suppose @Theglassman12 @Damage3245 @Agnaa @FinePoint
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Aspects 1, 2, and 4 seem fairly obvious.
5 I'm not sure. No characters lack plot in the meta sense, but if they're stated to predate the story itself I don't see what else it would fall under.
 
Yeah no one is stated to predate the story really. I mean u could argue shallow vernal more than kuro, but nep for her seemed more like just not being part of it from r>f

May just be easier going with the first three
 
So I think it's good to go now. Aspect 1, 2 and 4 got accepted. I think 3 should be fine too via soul=mind. I assume Shiro's NEP got accepted too since there's no disagreeing there.
 
There has been plenty of disagreement about Shiro having NEP, the argument is that she doesn't have it and it's just proof of R>F.

As for aspect 3 for Kuro, with the mind now being part of the soul, I guess I won't object to it seeing as the true essence of Kuro has no antifeats against it, unlike Shiro who does if NEP was ever a thing for her.
 
I thought it was only for aspect 5.

Prologue is still a part of Epilogue, which is a good argument for it having NEP. Plus, Epilogue manifesting Shiro isn't exactly an anti feat, it's not AC5, Epilogue and Shiro are two different beings. If you're talking about Epilogue's consciousness, then it's still alright imo since NEP page states that a being should lack the aspect or have a non existent one, it's not paradoxical to be exact, so Epilogue having a non existent mind should just be fine.

But ehh Kuro NEP it is for now then ig
 
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