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Giyu Tomioka (Water Hashira) Vs Obanai Iguro (Serpent Hashira) (Demon Slayer) [9-4-0]

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Giyu Tomioka Vs Obanai Iguro
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obanai-vs-giyu-who-is-stronker-v0-8jf51379f5d91.jpg

Both are blood lusted
Fight takes place in the Infinity Fortress
Fight OST:



Giyu Tomioka: @Dog3352 @Catbowtie @Machmatej @XSOULOFCINDERX @Mommyleona @CastoriceTheFifth @Xaropadob3ta @OiEuSouDuvi @KnyRaizn

Obanai Iguro: @Epyriel @Kavopaco @Mickey1940 @NikHelton
 
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Considering even Base Obanai was keeping up relatively to an albeit injured Marked Giyu despite being more greatly affected by poison, and then when Obanai unlocked the Mark and Red Blade at that point Giyu struggled to even keep track of him (which should not be affected by his torso wounds), even before Obanai manages to further unlock the Transparent World. He then also manages to keep up and attack and sync with 13th Form Tanjiro (despite being arguably more injured than Tanjiro) who should be Giyu’s superior at this point.

Considering the gap in speed, as well as arguably an advantage in skill (Obanai’s sword skills were great enough to be placed in charge of teaching such in the Hashira Training Arc, and he was quick to unlock the Red Blade and Transparent World based on minimal insight from Gyomei and reports about Muichiro), I’d decisively give it to Obanai.
 
Go easy on me, Eepy…

The fatigue Giyu went through up to the Muzan fight heavily hindered his performance.

Giyu, by that point, suffered multiple injuries from Akaza (exerting himself even more to save Tanjiro a couple of times), nearly died to Akaza, passed out after the fight, woke up and went on to fight Muzan for a short but serious fight (literal life or death if Muzan nicked or didn’t nick Giyu), and then had to fight Muzan for round two and actually matched the timings of Mitsuri and Obanai,

Comparatively, Obanai went through what was essentially a very annoying obstacle course against Nakime. He was barely injured and even said Mitsuri and him did nothing but run around the entire time by the time (I think) Kokushibo died. Obanai wasn’t injured up until the Muzan fight.

Slayers aren’t Saiyans. In verse, a fight with a demon is a practice in futility because the demon will walk off injuries while the human only accumulates more. Giyu himself says this. Slayers have to be what Versus Battlers would call “blood-lusted” to defeat demons (especially 4th strongest in the verse). It’s why I say the Hashira are lunatics because only they could see their enemy shed the weakness of decapitation (only way slayers can win fights against demons except for the sun) and in the very next moment keep attacking the opponent to try to win.

It’s not as if Giyu can ignore his grievous injuries and work at peak performance for two fights in a row. Giyu was clearly going balls-to-wall on Akaza after the Hashira activated mark, and continued to ball against Muzan.

In a battle where Giyu and Obanai are in a peak state, I’d decisively give it to Giyu.

It’s true Marked Obanai perception blitzed Marked Giyu. That can’t really be attributed to fatigue when Giyu was looking dead at Obanai when he performed the feat. Though Giyu’s Dead Calm does cover attacks he can’t traditionally block through his regular speed. Constant Flux was ****ing up Akaza’s body faster than the demon could regenerate and the speed of upper moon demon regeneration is as fast as a blink of the eye from the perspective of Hashira (as said by Rengoku). Its also its on self-contained speed amp too so ehhh that’d help bridge the gap. The Flux + Dead Calm + Drop Ripple Thrust combo spam can help Giyu at least defend himself against the speed amplification from STW. I don’t recall Obanai sustaining STW for a considerable amount of time so it’s possible for Giyu to out-last it. Even stuff like landing a good few preemptive hits on Obanai’s legs can somewhat negate the speed of STW.

Obanai does have good win conditions on his own. See-through world allows Obanai to out-predict Giyu and cut him in vitals and anticipate Breathing Techniques (not sure if Obanai has in-character knowledge of Water Breathing). Giyu’s pretty ****ed if Obanai accesses STW before Giyu uses Constant Flux and Dead Calm, but a caveat is that Obanai’s STW isn’t activated and kind of just…comes to him on its own.

I think it depends on how quickly Obanai gets close to death. STW came to him right before Muzan was going to obliterate him, so it’s about how hard Giyu whacks Obanai without using Constant Flux + Ripple Spam.

I can see Obanai winning here, but as of now, I think Giyu has this snake in the bag.
 
Giyu was putting belt to ass on Akaza after unlocking the Mark. After a sparring session with Sanemi, fighting demons in the IC, an intense battle with Akaza in which he passed out twice and got severely injured, and then parried attacks from a near-healthy Muzan despite being exhausted. Giyu was definitely in worse condition than Obanai by the time they fought Muzan together. Giyu was also able to match Sanemi in a sword clash (meaning they should be relative in the moment, since one of the swords would've snapped if one side was overwhelmingly stronger).

The STW wouldn't be a great speed amp since he only unlocked it for like a second. Obanai turning his sword red wouldn't automatically give him an AP or strength advantage considering Giyu did the same (albeit with help) despite being a half-dead zombie who couldn't even hold onto his sword. And Obanai's best speed feats are on a Muzan with divided attention. Even if Obanai had the speed advantage (he doesn't), Dead Calm still helps Giyu keep up with and block attacks that should be above his own perception.

Speed should be comparable, if not slightly in Giyu's favor. AP and strength too, with Giyu having better endurance, stamina, and arguably durability and skill.

Giyu should take this.
 
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Go easy on me, Eepy…

The fatigue Giyu went through up to the Muzan fight heavily hindered his performance.

Giyu, by that point, suffered multiple injuries from Akaza (exerting himself even more to save Tanjiro a couple of times), nearly died to Akaza, passed out after the fight, woke up and went on to fight Muzan for a short but serious fight (literal life or death if Muzan nicked or didn’t nick Giyu), and then had to fight Muzan for round two and actually matched the timings of Mitsuri and Obanai,

Comparatively, Obanai went through what was essentially a very annoying obstacle course against Nakime. He was barely injured and even said Mitsuri and him did nothing but run around the entire time by the time (I think) Kokushibo died. Obanai wasn’t injured up until the Muzan fight.

Slayers aren’t Saiyans. In verse, a fight with a demon is a practice in futility because the demon will walk off injuries while the human only accumulates more. Giyu himself says this. Slayers have to be what Versus Battlers would call “blood-lusted” to defeat demons (especially 4th strongest in the verse). It’s why I say the Hashira are lunatics because only they could see their enemy shed the weakness of decapitation (only way slayers can win fights against demons except for the sun) and in the very next moment keep attacking the opponent to try to win.

It’s not as if Giyu can ignore his grievous injuries and work at peak performance for two fights in a row. Giyu was clearly going balls-to-wall on Akaza after the Hashira activated mark, and continued to ball against Muzan.

In a battle where Giyu and Obanai are in a peak state, I’d decisively give it to Giyu.
As I mentioned, it is absolutely true that Obanai was less injured than Giyu during the initial encounter with Muzan, but less fatigued? I’d have to disagree.

Giyu had a break after his fight with Akaza to rest and recover, while Obanai was fighting and running around the entire 5 hours of the Infinity Castle Arc, with his Nakime encounter not being particularly lethal, but essentially designed to drain stamina.

On top of that, Obanai mentioned he was being affected by the poison more rapidly due to his smaller size.

Moreover, during the second phase of the battle against Muzan, Obanai’s injuries now outstrip those of Giyu and Tanjiro, yet was still performing as an equal to Tanjiro who had previously outstripped Giyu in the Akaza fight.

It’s true Marked Obanai perception blitzed Marked Giyu. That can’t really be attributed to fatigue when Giyu was looking dead at Obanai when he performed the feat. Though Giyu’s Dead Calm does cover attacks he can’t traditionally block through his regular speed. Constant Flux was ****ing up Akaza’s body faster than the demon could regenerate and the speed of upper moon demon regeneration is as fast as a blink of the eye from the perspective of Hashira (as said by Rengoku). Its also its on self-contained speed amp too so ehhh that’d help bridge the gap. The Flux + Dead Calm + Drop Ripple Thrust combo spam can help Giyu at least defend himself against the speed amplification from STW. I don’t recall Obanai sustaining STW for a considerable amount of time so it’s possible for Giyu to out-last it. Even stuff like landing a good few preemptive hits on Obanai’s legs can somewhat negate the speed of STW.
I should mention that Tanjiro consistently failed to access the TW during the Muzan fight because of the poison, which can explain why Obanai also struggled to access it as consistently.

Obanai does have good win conditions on his own. See-through world allows Obanai to out-predict Giyu and cut him in vitals and anticipate Breathing Techniques (not sure if Obanai has in-character knowledge of Water Breathing). Giyu’s pretty ****ed if Obanai accesses STW before Giyu uses Constant Flux and Dead Calm, but a caveat is that Obanai’s STW isn’t activated and kind of just…comes to him on its own.

I think it depends on how quickly Obanai gets close to death. STW came to him right before Muzan was going to obliterate him, so it’s about how hard Giyu whacks Obanai without using Constant Flux + Ripple Spam.

I can see Obanai winning here, but as of now, I think Giyu has this snake in the bag.
While you are correct in saying that Giyu’s 11th Form can help compensate for attacks even his own perception speed can’t keep up with, it also has a limit, and traditionally only been used with attacks he saw coming in advance, whereas against someone whose movements he entirely struggles to track it would be difficult for him to position himself appropriately to respond.

I don’t really see Giyu consistently being able to eek out a lucky blow before taking fatal damage from the sheer speed difference.
 
As I mentioned, it is absolutely true that Obanai was less injured than Giyu during the initial encounter with Muzan, but less fatigued? I’d have to disagree.

Giyu had a break after his fight with Akaza to rest and recover, while Obanai was fighting and running around the entire 5 hours of the Infinity Castle Arc, with his Nakime encounter not being particularly lethal, but essentially designed to drain stamina.
Giyu didn't "have a break", he passed out. That doesn't recover stamina. Not to mention he was constantly taking damage and using techniques, while basically flying throughout the infinity castle (as shown in the movie) which would drain stamina more than just being tossed around by Nakime.

Moreover, during the second phase of the battle against Muzan, Obanai’s injuries now outstrip those of Giyu and Tanjiro, yet was still performing as an equal to Tanjiro who had previously outstripped Giyu in the Akaza fight.
Tanjiro was basically half-dead at that point and also more exhausted than Obanai, and Obanai getting more injuries despite starting off in a better state is just an anti-feat considering Muzan wasn't entirely focused on him.

I should mention that Tanjiro consistently failed to access the TW during the Muzan fight because of the poison, which can explain why Obanai also struggled to access it as consistently.
Either way, it's not something he mastered and can do whenever he wants. Saying he can just pop it at will and it giving him the same speed amp it gave to Tanjiro is reaching. The STW is basically a non-factor in Obanai's case.

While you are correct in saying that Giyu’s 11th Form can help compensate for attacks even his own perception speed can’t keep up with, it also has a limit, and traditionally only been used with attacks he saw coming in advance, whereas against someone whose movements he entirely struggles to track it would be difficult for him to position himself appropriately to respond.
Obanai's not gonna blitz him, if that's what you're trying to say. If anything, dead calm being able to parry Muzan's whips when Tanjiro couldn't even perceive or smell the attacks is a better reaction speed feat than anything Obanai has done. Besides, the 11th form is also his starting move.

I don’t really see Giyu consistently being able to eek out a lucky blow before taking fatal damage from the sheer speed difference.
It's the other way around, not gonna lie.
 
Giyu didn't "have a break", he passed out. That doesn't recover stamina. Not to mention he was constantly taking damage and using techniques, while basically flying throughout the infinity castle (as shown in the movie) which would drain stamina more than just being tossed around by Nakime.
He did more than simply pass out before getting back into the fight. He absolutely got a break, with enough time to rest, recover and bandage his wounds as well as those of Tanjiro, and set up a fire.

Tanjiro was basically half-dead at that point and also more exhausted than Obanai, and Obanai getting more injuries despite starting off in a better state is just an anti-feat considering Muzan wasn't entirely focused on him.
Tanjiro was being a benchwarmer for the first half of the fight while Muzan was at his strongest and getting a personal treatment session for the poison. I wouldn’t call the fact Obanai suffered worse injuries in those circumstances an anti-feat.

And Obanai was fighting on par despite having worse injuries and having fought for longer.

Either way, it's not something he mastered and can do whenever he wants. Saying he can just pop it at will and it giving him the same speed amp it gave to Tanjiro is reaching. The STW is basically a non-factor in Obanai's case.


Obanai's not gonna blitz him, if that's what you're trying to say. If anything, dead calm being able to parry Muzan's whips when Tanjiro couldn't even perceive or smell the attacks is a better reaction speed feat than anything Obanai has done. Besides, the 11th form is also his starting move.


It's the other way around, not gonna lie.
Giyu was failing to track Obanai even before he unlocked TW, even if that never comes up and isn’t at all factor (which I doubt), he would still have a large speed advantage.
 
Except putting bandages doesn't immediately heal you, while Obanai didn't have any injuries or any real fight, and we don't even know how long he was engaging with Nakime before Yushiro popped up and saved his ass. Giyu was objectively in a worse condition. And we don't even know how long he and Tanjiro were passed out, or how much of a "break" Giyu got.

Tanjiro was being a benchwarmer for the first half of the fight while Muzan was at his strongest and getting a personal treatment session for the poison. I wouldn’t call the fact Obanai suffered worse injuries in those circumstances an anti-feat.
A "benchwarmer" who was consistently outperformed and saved by Giyu in the Akaza fight and first half of the Muzan fight. And a "benchwarmer" who fought a stronger Muzan alone and didn't have to rely on divided attention or plot amps to actually do something. His best feat was running away from a Muzan who was huffing and puffing like a diabetic smoker who tried jogging for the first time.

Giyu was failing to track Obanai even before he unlocked TW, even if that never comes up and isn’t at all factor (which I doubt), he would still have a large speed advantage.
Don't know what you're talking about. Obanai jumped away while Giyu was struggling to even hold his sword. That clearly wasn't a peak-performance Giyu, if that's the scene you're talking about. And the TW can barely be considered an amp in Obanai's case.
 
Except putting bandages doesn't immediately heal you, while Obanai didn't have any injuries or any real fight, and we don't even know how long he was engaging with Nakime before Yushiro popped up and saved his ass. Giyu was objectively in a worse condition. And we don't even know how long he and Tanjiro were passed out, or how much of a "break" Giyu got.
The point was he got a break to rest. One that lasted long enough to wake up, treat both their injuries, and start a full campfire.

A "benchwarmer" who was consistently outperformed and saved by Giyu in the Akaza fight and first half of the Muzan fight. And a "benchwarmer" who fought a stronger Muzan alone and didn't have to rely on divided attention or plot amps to actually do something. His best feat was running away from a Muzan who was huffing and puffing like a diabetic smoker who tried jogging for the first time.
Who by the end of the fight was the one outperforming and saving Giyu in turn. Also if you are referring to Tanjiro as the one fighting a “stronger Muzan” without “plot amps” then… uh 💀. His entire storyline is plot amps and fighting a weaker Muzan.

Don't know what you're talking about. Obanai jumped away while Giyu was struggling to even hold his sword. That clearly wasn't a peak-performance Giyu, if that's the scene you're talking about. And the TW can barely be considered an amp in Obanai's case.
Your perception speed has nothing to do with the injuries Giyu has suffered. And assuming TW does nothing for Obanai unlike literally every other case we see it in seems incredibly dubious.
 
Giyu has never demonstrated the ability to activate the Bright Red Nichirin Sword by himself, He's only been able to use it by clashing with Sanemi
Although you could argue that Giyu simply clashing swords with Obanai can activate it, Obanai can activate it himself and just overpower Giyu in that split second

Both combatants have extremely similar feats and the exact same scaling to one another, and Constant Flux + Dead Calm does give Giyu an advantage, Obanai activating his Bright Red Nichirin Sword + Serpent Breathing's inherent unpredictability to slightly prevent Giyu from making his own sword red should give him an advantage

if both combatants can make their swords red, I'd have to give it to Giyu cuz of his more varied movepool, but Obanai activating it earlier makes me believe he should win

voting Obanai
 
The point was he got a break to rest. One that lasted long enough to wake up, treat both their injuries, and start a full campfire.
And my point is that he was still more fatigued and more injured than Obanai.

Who by the end of the fight was the one outperforming and saving Giyu in turn.
Was also outperforming Obanai, so using Tanjiro as a metric to scale both of them is weird.

Also if you are referring to Tanjiro as the one fighting a “stronger Muzan” without “plot amps” then… uh 💀. His entire storyline is plot amps and fighting a weaker Muzan.
By "plot amps" I'm referring to the rage and near death amp that Obanai had to keep up with Tanjiro. But yeah, everyone has plot amps in a way.

Your perception speed has nothing to do with the injuries Giyu has suffered. And assuming TW does nothing for Obanai unlike literally every other case we see it in seems incredibly dubious.
Except getting actually blitzed is different from being surprised at someone jumping away. And TW does nothing because it lasted for a ******* picosecond.
 
Giyu has never demonstrated the ability to activate the Bright Red Nichirin Sword by himself, He's only been able to use it by clashing with Sanemi
Although you could argue that Giyu simply clashing swords with Obanai can activate it, Obanai can activate it himself and just overpower Giyu in that split second

Both combatants have extremely similar feats and the exact same scaling to one another, and Constant Flux + Dead Calm does give Giyu an advantage, Obanai activating his Bright Red Nichirin Sword + Serpent Breathing's inherent unpredictability to slightly prevent Giyu from making his own sword red should give him an advantage

if both combatants can make their swords red, I'd have to give it to Giyu cuz of his more varied movepool, but Obanai activating it earlier makes me believe he should win

voting Obanai
Turning his sword red isn't a starting move for Obanai and requires a demon slayer mark + a near death amp + rage amp and literally putting all his energy towards it. He needs to fulfill a lot of stuff before he can actually turn it red. And again, that wouldn't be the first thing he tries to do.

Edit: Giyu can pop the mark at will and should be physically stronger in base
 
And my point is that he was still more fatigued and more injured than Obanai.
More injured, less fatigued, less affected by poison in phase 1. Less injured, less fatigued, and less affected by poison in phase 2.

Was also outperforming Obanai, so using Tanjiro as a metric to scale both of them is weird.
Obanai saved Tanjiro multiple times and fought with him in complete sync.

By "plot amps" I'm referring to the rage and near death amp that Obanai had to keep up with Tanjiro. But yeah, everyone has plot amps in a way.
No more evidence for that for Obanai as there is for Tanjiro.

Except getting actually blitzed is different from being surprised at someone jumping away.
Failing to track someone you are looking straight at isn’t a good indication you will be able to keep up consistently with them under different circumstances.

And TW does nothing because it lasted for a ******* picosecond.
Which is longer than Tanjiro kept it up under similar circumstances, and yet even momentary flashes of the TW have proved decisive before.

Giyu wasnt even marked btw
He explicitly was btw
N54iX7Z.png
 
More injured, less fatigued, less affected by poison in phase 1. Less injured, less fatigued, and less affected by poison in phase 2.
More injured, more fatigued in both phases.

Obanai saved Tanjiro multiple times and fought with him in complete sync.
Saved Tanjiro from a Muzan with divided attention, and ran with Tanjiro in complete sync.

No more evidence for that for Obanai as there is for Tanjiro
Except a near death amp was explicitly stated, and a rage amp was heavily implied after Mitsuri got hit.

Failing to track someone you are looking straight at isn’t a good indication you will be able to keep up consistently with them under different circumstances.
Except the numerous instances of characters who are relative to each other being shown blitzing each other under specific circumstances (Tengen vs Gyutaro, Tanjiro vs Akaza, Shinobu vs Doma, etc)

He explicitly was btw
755

Clearly lost it btw
 
More injured, more fatigued in both phases.
He had spent less time fighting, if he is more fatigued then his stamina is just bad. And he definitely was less injured than phase 2 Obanai who was blinded and torn to shreds with lacerations littering his face and torso.

Saved Tanjiro from a Muzan with divided attention, and ran with Tanjiro in complete sync.
It was literally just the two of them when Tanjiro was saved by a seriously wounded Marked Obanai and Obanai repeatedly keeps up with Tanjiro while also blinded in both eyes instead of one and reliant on his snake even before being given an eyeblind to directly share senses upon which the trend continues.

Except a near death amp was explicitly stated, and a rage amp was heavily implied after Mitsuri got hit.
That second scan was for Muichiro not Obanai, while the first just repeats the explosive power near death things that could equally be applied to Tanjiro here. Same could be said about vague inferences of rage amps.

Except the numerous instances of characters who are relative to each other being shown blitzing each other under specific circumstances (Tengen vs Gyutaro, Tanjiro vs Akaza, Shinobu vs Doma, etc)
Tengen and Gyutaro never really blitzed one another, while both Tanjiro vs Akaza and Shinobu vs Doma had specific injuries and amps to explain each instance. Meanwhile the explanation for Obanai blitzing Giyu’s perception here is just him having unlocked the Mark.

755

Clearly lost it btw
The left side of his face that has the Mark is obscured here. There is no evidence he lost it.

Also the version I'm reading didn't show the mark here
15609396_959_1400_248454.webp
Because it is a non-official coloured version.
 
The reasons why I vote for Giyuu have already been said, comparing the state of Obanai with any other hashira other than Mitsuri is simply absurd, Giyuu took the most powerful coup of the most powerful 4th Oni of the DS, and even had bleeding, bone problems, tired fainting, and various wounds, yes, a while to "rest" is not helping it, Giyuu just "rested" enough to close his deeper cuts and leave.
In addition to Obanai himself saying that he is being the less useful hashira in the fight until activating the brand.

And I don't even need to talk about how monstrous is the defense of Giyuu, base Giyuu with Dead Calm dealt with no difficulty with the same attack as Akaza that left Rengoku almost dead.

Giyuu is also one of the most experienced DS hashiras, being much more experienced and well -trained than Obanai, of course, not to mention that it is so good in his breath that it completely refined and created a new form, what is an amazing thing, as the breathing of water has gone for several years of refinement, and yet Giyuu refined even more.

If Obanai without brand following the hashiras was a point to be taken into consideration, even disregarding the fact that other hashiras were in absurdly worse states than Obanai, Obanai could be said to be superior to Giomey himself.
 
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He had spent less time fighting, if he is more fatigued then his stamina is just bad. And he definitely was less injured than phase 2 Obanai who was blinded and torn to shreds with lacerations littering his face and torso.
"Less time fighting" he says, like Giyu didn't have an actual fight with a stronger upper moon for a quantifiably longer time before fighting a healthier Muzan who perception blitzed a healthier Tanjiro. Giyu also fought even longer AFTER Obanai croaked, AFTER getting hit by the same thing that knocked Obanai out of the game.

"Keeping up" with a weaker Muzan and weaker Tanjiro after Tanjiro already exhausted himself in a 1v1 with Muzan (after Obanai and the other hashira got slammed). And none of this compares to an injured and fatigued Giyu parrying a healthier Muzan's whips, which Tanjiro couldn't even track with vision or smell. Dead Calm is broken.

That second scan was for Muichiro not Obanai, while the first just repeats the explosive power near death things that could equally be applied to Tanjiro here. Same could be said about vague inferences of rage amps.
The second scan was Obanai's thoughts, and he clearly recognizes that he can only do all this BECAUSE he's facing near-certain death. He needed a near death amp and rage amp to unlock the Demon Slayer Mark, when Giyu did so at will, when he was irritated that his back was hurting.

Tengen and Gyutaro never really blitzed one another, while both Tanjiro vs Akaza and Shinobu vs Doma had specific injuries and amps to explain each instance. Meanwhile the explanation for Obanai blitzing Giyu’s perception here is just him having unlocked the Mark.
Gyutaro blitzes Tengen right here. And Tengen didn't outright blitz, but outsped Gyutaro several times when saving Tanjiro. Both of them were clearly caught off-guard, which has been shown affecting perception speed numerous times throughout the series, like when Ubuyashiki blew Muzan up.

The left side of his face that has the Mark is obscured here. There is no evidence he lost it.
We still see his chin and a bit of his left cheek, while the mark almost touches the bottom of his chin
 
I just don't see a scenario where Obanai doesn't get hit with a Drop Ripple Thrust and Constant Flux combo from a Marked Giyu and immediately dies. Obanai's amps have very specific requirements.
 
"Less time fighting" he says, like Giyu didn't have an actual fight with a stronger upper moon for a quantifiably longer time before fighting a healthier Muzan
Yes, less time fighting. Giyu was going all out for a couple minutes in a serious battle before resting, but Obanai was fighting, running, and using his technique for the entire 5 hours straight. The fact Giyu had a more serious engagement left him more injured but doesn’t change the fact that he was fighting less and had time to regain his stamina.

Fatigue and injuries are two separate things.

who perception blitzed a healthier Tanjiro.
Pre-13th Form non-TW Tanjiro. And Base Obanai fought the same Muzan seconds apart.

Giyu also fought even longer AFTER Obanai croaked, AFTER getting hit by the same thing that knocked Obanai out of the game.
Obanai was finished by Muzan literally eating him after he sacrifices himself to save Tanjiro, after he recovered faster than Giyu from Muzan’s earlier attack. Nothing here supports Giyu.

"Keeping up" with a weaker Muzan and weaker Tanjiro after Tanjiro already exhausted himself in a 1v1 with Muzan (after Obanai and the other hashira got slammed).
As already covered, 13th Form Tanjiro and Obanai were both in similar condition (arguably even worse for Obanai) and still performed as equals. There is no getting around this.

And none of this compares to an injured and fatigued Giyu parrying a healthier Muzan's whips, which Tanjiro couldn't even track with vision or smell. Dead Calm is broken.
I’m not sure how. Giyu parried some strikes from Muzan from over a dozen meters away seconds before Obanai and Mitsrui arrived. Then seconds later Base Obanai engages Muzan at far closer range in synch with Giyu.

The second scan was Obanai's thoughts, and he clearly recognizes that he can only do all this BECAUSE he's facing near-certain death. He needed a near death amp and rage amp to unlock the Demon Slayer Mark, when Giyu did so at will, when he was irritated that his back was hurting.
He said he needed a new surge of strength to unlock the Red Blade like Muichiro, not the Mark. Trying to use the fact Giyu broadcasts his emotions less despite also being backed into a corner against Akaza as some kind of gotcha to limit Obanai’s Mark as circumstantial despite all other Marks being unlocked in similar circumstances (bar Gyomei’s) doesn’t work.

Gyutaro blitzes Tengen right here. And Tengen didn't outright blitz, but outsped Gyutaro several times when saving Tanjiro. Both of them were clearly caught off-guard, which has been shown affecting perception speed numerous times throughout the series, like when Ubuyashiki blew Muzan up.
Gyutaro didn’t “blitz” Tengen, he hit him. Gyutaro even explicitly calls out the fact that Tengen parried a fatal hit.

Meanwhile Giyu didn’t notice Obanai jumping straight out of his line of sight a full like 10 meters into the air.

We still see his chin and a bit of his left cheek, while the mark almost touches the bottom of his chin
Which can easily be explained by the artist not wanting to bother figuring out which pixels of the very side of his face they should colour in. Marks are constantly simplified or left out in far shots and disfavourable angles.
 
Yes, less time fighting. Giyu was going all out for a couple minutes in a serious battle before resting, but Obanai was fighting, running, and using his technique for the entire 5 hours straight. The fact Giyu had a more serious engagement left him more injured but doesn’t change the fact that he was fighting less and had time to regain his stamina.
Giyu fought Sanemi in a sparring session, rushed towards the Ubuyashiki mansion, fought NPC demons for an unknown period of time, then exhausted himself fighting Akaza (I don't know where you're getting 5 minutes from, the fight was clearly longer than other fights which presumably lasted for hours), and had actual injuries. He was indeed fighting more in the same period of time, and Obanai also most likely had time to rest considering Yushiro had to get to Nakime, take control of her, and manipulate her vision to fool Muzan and make him think that Nakime was still fighting Obanai and Mitsuri. We also don't know how much "rest" Giyu got, or how much Obanai was really fighting since literally the entire fight was off-screen.

Fatigue and injuries are two separate things.
Injuries make you fatigue faster. The more you're injured, the faster you get fatigued and the longer you take to recover.

Pre-13th Form non-TW Tanjiro. And Base Obanai fought the same Muzan seconds apart.
13th form Tanjiro was fighting a Muzan alone while in immense pain and rapidly losing steam, with Obanai only saving him after he couldn't connect the 12 forms anymore.

Obanai was finished by Muzan literally eating him after he sacrifices himself to save Tanjiro, after he recovered faster than Giyu from Muzan’s earlier attack. Nothing here supports Giyu.
Could never be Giyu btw

As already covered, 13th Form Tanjiro and Obanai were both in similar condition (arguably even worse for Obanai) and still performed as equals. There is no getting around this.
Absolutely not. The whole time Tanjiro was connecting the 12 forms, he was moaning about how his organs were on fire, how his brain and heart were spinning, how his limbs felt like they were being torn off, how his blade was becoming duller while his muscles lost their strength, with Muzan himself commenting on how rapidly he's losing his strength. Tanjiro was very explicitly losing his strength while using the 13th form, and Obanai only swooped in when Tanjiro lost his footing and couldn't keep up anymore, and against a Muzan who just realized he was also rapidly losing his strength.

You just can't compare Obanai and 13th Form Tanjiro lmao

I’m not sure how. Giyu parried some strikes from Muzan from over a dozen meters away seconds before Obanai and Mitsrui arrived. Then seconds later Base Obanai engages Muzan at far closer range in synch with Giyu.
The same attacks that blitzed Tanjiro from several dozens of meters, while Obanai could fight in close range with support from Giyu and Mitsuri, and specifically a Giyu who didn't use Dead Calm or any other speed amping technique. He also isn't marked in the version I'm reading tho that could just be a coloring problem.

He said he needed a new surge of strength to unlock the Red Blade like Muichiro, not the Mark. Trying to use the fact Giyu broadcasts his emotions less despite also being backed into a corner against Akaza as some kind of gotcha to limit Obanai’s Mark as circumstantial despite all other Marks being unlocked in similar circumstances (bar Gyomei’s) doesn’t work.
Yes, and he unlocked a Mark after he says he needs to grip his sword with all of his power, implying the Mark is "all of his power" and that he couldn't turn the sword red without it. So the death amp does indeed seem to play a role in him unlocking his mark. And broadcasting his emotions has nothing to do with it. Giyu unlocks his mark after saying "I don't like swinging my sword to the best of my ability", and says his back hurts. That's clearly different than when he angrily yelled out that Akaza has to kill him in order to kill Tanjiro, or when he was pissed off when Ubuyashiki blew up. He's not hiding his emotions at all, his rage just has no connection to him unlocking the mark.


Gyutaro didn’t “blitz” Tengen, he hit him. Gyutaro even explicitly calls out the fact that Tengen parried a fatal hit.
Except Tengen still got hit because he failed to react fully, and Gyutaro went halfway across the room while Tengen couldn't swing his swords in time to prevent getting hit at all. That is a blitz, although a partial one.

Which can easily be explained by the artist not wanting to bother figuring out which pixels of the very side of his face they should colour in. Marks are constantly simplified or left out in far shots and disfavourable angles.
This is just reaching. The author never leaves out details like this when drawing close-ups of characters.
 
Giyu fought Sanemi in a sparring session, rushed towards the Ubuyashiki mansion, fought NPC demons for an unknown period of time, then exhausted himself fighting Akaza (I don't know where you're getting 5 minutes from, the fight was clearly longer than other fights which presumably lasted for hours), and had actual injuries. He was indeed fighting more in the same period of time, and Obanai also most likely had time to rest considering Yushiro had to get to Nakime, take control of her, and manipulate her vision to fool Muzan and make him think that Nakime was still fighting Obanai and Mitsuri. We also don't know how much "rest" Giyu got, or how much Obanai was really fighting since literally the entire fight was off-screen. Injuries make you fatigue faster.

The more you're injured, the faster you get fatigued and the longer you take to recover.
Giyu sparred with Sanemi hours ago. If we are counting that, it is likely Obanai also sparred at some point throughout that entire day instead of doing nothing. Obanai did all the rest as well, and Obanai running to Muzan between Yushiro fooling Nakime is nowhere implied or likely to have a random break in-between. And injuries don’t make you fatigue faster, thry only make you perform worse, usually in fact it gives you a shot of adrenaline.

13th form Tanjiro was fighting a Muzan alone while in immense pain and rapidly losing steam, with Obanai only saving him after he couldn't connect the 12 forms anymore.

Absolutely not. The whole time Tanjiro was connecting the 12 forms, he was moaning about how his organs were on fire, how his brain and heart were spinning, how his limbs felt like they were being torn off, how his blade was becoming duller while his muscles lost their strength, with Muzan himself commenting on how rapidly he's losing his strength. Tanjiro was very explicitly losing his strength while using the 13th form, and Obanai only swooped in when Tanjiro lost his footing and couldn't keep up anymore, and against a Muzan who just realized he was also rapidly losing his strength.

You just can't compare Obanai and 13th Form Tanjiro lmao
Literally all that applies to Obanai but worse, who had his face scratched off, blinded, and poisoned without Tanjiro’s personal excessive treatment session. The fact he is a sun-breather doesn’t magically make his injuries count for more.

The same attacks that blitzed Tanjiro from several dozens of meters, while Obanai could fight in close range with support from Giyu and Mitsuri, and specifically a Giyu who didn't use Dead Calm or any other speed amping technique. He also isn't marked in the version I'm reading tho that could just be a coloring problem.
The only thing that proves is that Base Tanjiro sucks. Even Mitsuri’s solo attack didn’t get her blitzed.

And yes, Giyu is Marked here:
DR9dM1j.png


Yes, and he unlocked a Mark after he says he needs to grip his sword with all of his power, implying the Mark is "all of his power" and that he couldn't turn the sword red without it. So the death amp does indeed seem to play a role in him unlocking his mark. And broadcasting his emotions has nothing to do with it. Giyu unlocks his mark after saying "I don't like swinging my sword to the best of my ability", and says his back hurts. That's clearly different than when he angrily yelled out that Akaza has to kill him in order to kill Tanjiro, or when he was pissed off when Ubuyashiki blew up. He's not hiding his emotions at all, his rage just has no connection to him unlocking the mark.
Mtisuri described the process of acquiring a Mark being a pumped-up feeling, there is nothing inherently that requires some other amp to activate. The only thing you are giving evidence for is that Obanai needed the Mark for the Red Blade, not that he needed some other ambiguous amp to activate the Mark in the first place.

Except Tengen still got hit because he failed to react fully, and Gyutaro went halfway across the room while Tengen couldn't swing his swords in time to prevent getting hit at all. That is a blitz, although a partial one.
There is a massive difference between being blitzed and not being able to react or perceive, and getting hit after a clash in which blows were parried.

This is just reaching. The author never leaves out details like this when drawing close-ups of characters.
Saying that because the last few pixels on the edges of his face isn’t coloured in means he actually lost his mark is what is reaching.
 
And injuries don’t make you fatigue faster, thry only make you perform worse, usually in fact it gives you a shot of adrenaline.
A simple google search proves this wrong.
Literally all that applies to Obanai but worse, who had his face scratched off, blinded, and poisoned without Tanjiro’s personal excessive treatment session. The fact he is a sun-breather doesn’t magically make his injuries count for more.
Except none of it applies to Obanai in the slightest, because he was only keeping up with a weaker Tanjiro who couldn't even begin connecting the 12 forms, which we've already established to be great amps. There is no evidence that a healthy Obanai would be keeping up with a 13th form Tanjiro, let alone a healthy 13th form Tanjiro.
The only thing that proves is that Base Tanjiro sucks. Even Mitsuri’s solo attack didn’t get her blitzed.
A casual Muzan who wasn't even paying attention to Mitsuri and let himself get hit. I don't even think Muzan attacked her here. In the very next scene, his arm tentacle was retracted. He was just pissed at Nakime. But he clearly tried killing Tanjiro when Giyu slapped his whips away.
Mtisuri described the process of acquiring a Mark being a pumped-up feeling, there is nothing inherently that requires some other amp to activate. The only thing you are giving evidence for is that Obanai needed the Mark for the Red Blade, not that he needed some other ambiguous amp to activate the Mark in the first place.
The scene implies that he either unlocked his mark BECAUSE he was near death, or unlocked the red blade because of the mark + near death amp.
Saying that because the last few pixels on the edges of his face isn’t coloured in means he actually lost his mark is what is reaching.
Not really, marks are always drawn even when the characters are far away and drawn with less detail, or the place where the mark should be is slightly off panel. There's no reason why that panel would be the exception.
 
A simple google search proves this wrong.

Except none of it applies to Obanai in the slightest, because he was only keeping up with a weaker Tanjiro who couldn't even begin connecting the 12 forms, which we've already established to be great amps. There is no evidence that a healthy Obanai would be keeping up with a 13th form Tanjiro, let alone a healthy 13th form Tanjiro.

A casual Muzan who wasn't even paying attention to Mitsuri and let himself get hit. I don't even think Muzan attacked her here. In the very next scene, his arm tentacle was retracted. He was just pissed at Nakime. But he clearly tried killing Tanjiro when Giyu slapped his whips away.

The scene implies that he either unlocked his mark BECAUSE he was near death, or unlocked the red blade because of the mark + near death amp.

Not really, marks are always drawn even when the characters are far away and drawn with less detail, or the place where the mark should be is slightly off panel. There's no reason why that panel would be the exception.
I’d love to respond further, but I’ve got a cruel amount of homework to burn through so I might get back to this later.
 
Tomioka has better feats and statements, and Obanai himself said he was the Hashira who contributed least in the final fight before acquiring the red blade. Adding this to the rankings, Giyu wins in my opnion.

Tomioka Giyu FRA - Mid~High Diff
 
Tomioka has better feats and statements, and Obanai himself said he was the Hashira who contributed least in the final fight before acquiring the red blade. Adding this to the rankings, Giyu wins in my opnion.

Tomioka Giyu FRA - Mid~High Diff
no-low diff
 
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