Raiden Downgrade (Genshin Impact) — 1 more Staff Vote (STAFF IS NEEDED)

[AsterReal]

It doesn't mean it cannot have CM2, its basically nobody has ever change any concept using the Ley Lines.

Again, This scans already explained that reweaving the leyline will change the entire world. Like do you even play the "Archon Quest, Space and Time For You" ??

Well, if changing the leylines would change the world accordingly. It seems pretty brazen to me.

 

[Voidnether]

Well, if changing the leylines would change the world accordingly. It seems pretty brazen to me.

I mean, the only problem I have here with leylines is that it's unclear what concept were being altered there that the world would fit into that "altered" concept. It's literally just this one problem tbh

 

[MSahla]

Reweaving the leyline doesn't mean altering those concept, they only manipulated it. If you alter a concept, then leyline as a "concept" must be altered to something else that the world would fit into that description. Take an apple for example, you altered the concept of apple to a banana. Hence, the world fits into the description that an apple simply doesn't exist. Because it's altered as "banana". This is whats outlined on the page

Funny, because they're not just manipulating but also change the entire world.
And Caribert already said that, even Dainsleif already said altering reality.

You should check that Scans fr buddy.

 

[Voidnether]

Funny, because they're not just manipulating but also change the entire world.
And Caribert already said that, even Dainsleif already said altering reality.

You should check that Scans fr buddy.

Somehow no one explains what concept there that's being altered

 

[MSahla]

Somehow no one explains what concept there that's being altered

A Lot, Ley Lines contains Soul, Memories, Histories, Elements, and so on.
And those things are considered a concepts in Teyvat.

I genuinely think that you don't actually know much about genshin atp.

 

[Voidnether]

A Lot, Ley Lines contains Soul, Memories, Histories, Elements, and so on.
And those things are considered a concepts in Teyvat.

I genuinely think that you don't actually know much about genshin atp.

It's altered to what definition? You don't explain that, don't you? I don't know about Genshin? Bro, it's literally as simple as this:

Phanes created 4 universal concepts, Life & Death, Space & Time — Phanes decided to alter the concept of "Life" to "Death" hence the world would fit into the definition that Life is basically Death. This also works if Phanes decided to alter the concept of "Space" to "Time". This is CM2, it's that SIMPLE bro but WHERE was this on the leylines? Where? Genuinely if anything, Phanes should be the one getting CM2 through leylines cause he created those. No one there capable of manipulating leylines are capable of altering the concept

 

[MSahla]

It's altered to what definition? You don't explain that, don't you? I don't know about Genshin? Bro, it's literally as simple as this:

Phanes created 4 universal concepts, Life & Death, Space & Time — Phanes decided to alter the concept of "Life" to "Death" hence the world would fit into the definition that Life is basically Death. This also works if Phanes decided to alter the concept of "Space" to "Time". This is CM2, it's that SIMPLE bro but WHERE was this on the leylines? Where?

A Lot, Ley Lines contains Soul, Memories, Histories, Elements, and so on.

These things is treated as Concepts within the Ley Lines buddy.

If you want a great example of how people altering the reality using the Ley Lines, Go play the "Archon Quest Chapter V act VI, Space and Time For You" And see how Lumine using her Loom of Fate to collect histories and memories and used her "Atlas of the New World" To revive Khaenri'ah's Ley Line again and bringing back Khaenri'ah into existence again. To her, thats like changing the Fate of the World.

 

[Voidnether]

These things is treated as Concepts within the Ley Lines buddy.

If you want a great example of how people altering the reality using the Ley Lines, Go play the "Archon Quest Chapter V act VI, Space and Time Foe You" And see how Lumine using her Loom of Fate to collect histories and memories and used her "Atlas of the New World" To revive Khaenri'ah's Ley Line again and bringing back Khaenri'ah into existence again. To her, thats like changing the Fate of the World.

How is that concept manipulation?

 

[AsterReal]

I mean, the only problem I have here with leylines is that it's unclear what concept were being altered there that the world would fit into that "altered" concept. It's literally just this one problem tbh

Aren't the ley lines the concept itself since they change the world if they are altered? Although I'm not sure you need to specify the concept being altered to qualify for Conceptual Manipulation, only that you show that what you are doing is the same as Conceptual Manipulation. Probably the metaphysical aspects page mentions it somewhere.

 

[MSahla]

How is that concept manipulation?

You'll find out if you actually play the game.

As i said, Ley Lines contains
"Memories, Histories, Elements, Soul etc"
At least these four things are treated as a Concepts. Changing them means changing the entire reality.

 

[Vietthai96]

Using concept to alter something the concept govern in physical reality is still CM, just the effect will not be conceptual since the concept isn't what was altered, a bad CM hax, but still CM hax nonetheless

So if the Leyline is conceptual, then using Leyline to manipulate thing still qualify as CM

 

[Voidnether]

Aren't the ley lines the concept itself since they change the world if they are altered? Although I'm not sure you need to specify the concept being altered to qualify for Conceptual Manipulation, only that you show that what you are doing is the same as Conceptual Manipulation. Probably the metaphysical aspects page mentions it somewhere.

Firestorm808 specifically mentioned that the concepts must be altered into the new definition so that the world would fit into that new definition, it's outlined in the conceptual manipulation page itself wym

You'll find out if you actually play the game.

As i said, Ley Lines contains
"Memories, Histories, Elements, Soul etc"
At least these four things are treated as a Concepts. Changing them means changing the entire reality.

I don't need to explain it for the 100th time, if it's concept manipulation then memory there as a "concept" needs to be altered (take for example, you altered memory as a concept as history so the world would fit into that new definition that memory is basically history) THAT'S HOW IT IS

 

[MSahla]

Firestorm808 specifically mentioned that the concepts must be altered into the new definition so that the world would fit into that new definition, it's outlined in the conceptual manipulation page itself wym

Yeah, and that new world which is Teyvat would be altered into that new definition, which is the New Khaenri'ah that Lumine brought up in the Future.

THATS WHY WE'RE GONNA HAVE KHAENRI'AH CHAPTER AFTER SNEZHNAYA CHAPTER, because Khaenri'ah actually exist again.

 

[Voidnether]

Yeah, and that new world which is Teyvat would be altered into that new definition, which is the New Khaenri'ah that Lumine brought up in the Future.

THATS WHY WE'RE GONNA HAVE KHAENRI'AH CHAPTER AFTER SNEZHNAYA CHAPTER, because Khaenri'ah actually exist again.

So Teyvat is a concept now? A place, really? As a CONCEPT? Teyvat being altered into Khaenri'ah if the New Khaenri'ah LITERALLY does not replace Teyvat but RATHER EXIST ALONGSIDE Natlan in Natlan's leylines?? You were the one saying I don't understand the quest but what's this bro

 

[MSahla]

What is Lumine doing with her "Atlas of the New World" And Loom of Fate with easy language is to change the world of Teyvat in the present day to have Khaenri'ah again.

Even though Khaenri'ah is already completely destroyed 500 Years ago, and she want to change the world where Khaenru'ah still exist.

 

[Vietthai96]

Yeah, and that new world which is Teyvat would be altered into that new definition, which is the New Khaenri'ah that Lumine brought up in the Future.

Even though idk Genshin, let not extrapolate this into some kind of new definition as in conceptual thing, or else by this logic we could extrapolate reality warping to conceptual manipulation. You really need extraordinary evidences for this extraordinary claim

 

[MSahla]

So Teyvat is a concept now? A place, really? As a CONCEPT? Teyvat being altered into Khaenri'ah if the New Khaenri'ah LITERALLY does not replace Teyvat but RATHER EXIST ALONGSIDE Natlan in Natlan's leylines?? You were the one saying I don't understand the quest but what's this bro

Oh my.. unfortunately, the New Khaenri'ah cannot be placed in Natlan's Ley Lines or the Night Kingdom as the Lord of the Night said it cannot host a new Ley Lines, thats why Lumine said she will find a suitable spot. Lord of the Night only gave a permission to activate the Loom of Fate.

Yeah, Teyvat is just that special you know?
AND DID YOU KNOW? before Phanes pulled up, Teyvat known as the Old World does not have the concept of Space, Time, Life and Death at all. Amazing right? How such Planet can be existed?

 

[MSahla]

Even though idk Genshin, let not extrapolate this into some kind of new definition as in conceptual thing, or else by this logic we could extrapolate reality warping to conceptual manipulation. You really need extraordinary evidences for this extraordinary claim

You can actually watch the entire context from this part

 

[MSahla]

This is actually why we got Khaenri'ah Chapter in the future because the nation of Khaenri'ah that was destroyed 500 years ago is exist again.

 

[Voidnether]

Oh my.. unfortunately, the New Khaenri'ah cannot be placed in Natlan's Ley Lines or the Night Kingdom as the Lord of the Night said it cannot host a new Ley Lines, thats why Lumine said she will find a suitable spot. Lord of the Night only gave a permission to activate the Loom of Fate.

Yeah, Teyvat is just that special you know?
AND DID YOU KNOW? before Phanes pulled up, Teyvat known as the Old World does not have the concept of Space, Time, Life and Death at all. Amazing right? How such Planet can be existed?

Your point is? New Khaenri'ah still exist in Natlan, just in a different time period. None of these are genuinely relevant to concept manipulation at all, I repeated what Firestorm said multiple times and you still don't get it

Teyvat is still NOT a concept, those are Phanes's doings.

 

[MSahla]

Your point is? New Khaenri'ah still exist in Natlan, just in a different time period. None of these are genuinely relevant to concept manipulation at all, I repeated what Firestorm said multiple times and you still don't get it

No it did not exist in Natlan, what are u talking about? Did you not see my scans?
And i do get it what firestorm means and i proved it.

The problem is just YOU who don't understand what im saying because you don't know anything.

 

[Vietthai96]

You can actually watch the entire context from this part

No, sorry, i don't see anything that would support your claim,

Anyway, i'm still fine with CM if Leyline is conceptual

 

[AsterReal]

No it did not exist in Natlan, what are u talking about? Did you not see my scans?
And i do get it what firestorm means and i proved it.

The problem is just YOU who don't understand what im saying because you don't know anything.

Yes, this is going to escalate and go to the reporting thread. You and Void should cool the waters. You have a thread moderator present in the thread.

 

[MSahla]

No, sorry, i don't see anything that would support your claim,

What is Lumine doing with her "Atlas of the New World" And Loom of Fate with easy language is to change the world of Teyvat in the present day to have Khaenri'ah again.

Even though Khaenri'ah is already completely destroyed 500 Years ago, and she want to change the world where Khaenri'ah still exist.

This.

Anyway, i'm still fine with CM if Leyline is conceptual

Fine

 

[MSahla]

Yes, this is going to escalate and go to the reporting thread. You and Void should cool the waters. You have a thread moderator present in the thread.

Well i already provided some evidences and explained correctly yet this guy failed to understand.

 

[Vietthai96]

This

Bro, changing something to fit into new definition =/= simply changing the world, this is a huge leap in logic with no basis, no offend

 

[Weaver261]

Well i already provided some evidences and explained correctly yet this guy failed to understand.

Umm.....The only possible proof of CM right now is just one time mentioned of Leylines being conceptual network without any explanation for why it's conceptual in a way of metaphysical meaning. "Conceptual" can mean a lot of other things beside metaphysical meaning.
Both Loom of Fate or New Khaneriah have nothing to do with CM at all since it's just information. Irminsul and Leyline have never shown an instance of manipulating concepts but rather only informations of Teyvat. So, I think you bring up explicit proof of which concepts are being manipulated. As far as I can see from your replies, it's just mental gymnastics.

 

[MSahla]

Bro, changing something to fit into new definition =/= simply changing the world, this is a huge leap in logic with no basis, no offend

I mean its ready explained pretty well in there, like i already said several times before, Ley Lines in Genshin contains "Memories, Histories, Elements and Souls", each of these four is treated as Concepts.

She try to reweave the leylines by using 3 concepts out of 4 of them.
First is memories and histories together, she tries to collect all memories and histories of this nation named Khaenriah that was destroyed 500 years ago.

And the next one would be soul, well, All Khaenri'ahns is getting cursed by the Curse of Immortality and they cannot die even when theyre in the state of nonexistence. Their souls would regenerate again.

 

[MSahla]

Both Loom of Fate or New Khaneriah have nothing to do with CM at all since it's just information. Irminsul and Leyline have never shown an instance of manipulating concepts but rather only informations of Teyvat. So, I think you bring up explicit proof of which concepts are being manipulated. As far as I can see from your replies, it's just mental gymnastics.

And Those information is treated as Concept.
Like, these are common thing in Genshin regarding Ley Lines.

 

[Voidnether]

No it did not exist in Natlan, what are u talking about? Did you not see my scans?
And i do get it what firestorm means and i proved it.

The problem is just YOU who don't understand what im saying because you don't know anything.

I'll show you just how misleading you are.

Khaenri'ah was superimposed over present day Natlan's space-time, it was also mentioned that they cannot host any Ley Lines anymore. New Khaenri'ah's Ley Line is still on the Loom of Fate which was then later on interrupted due to the other sibling's actions when it was activated. The fact that you claimed you understood what Firestorm meant yet being so blatantly wrong is insane, you claimed Teyvat as a concept just because it doesn't have a concept before Phanes came with its 4 Shades? YOU don't necessarily have to be a concept just to contain the others, this is misleading and blatantly wrong. When you mentioned memories, history, and the other 2 as concept: They're not concepts at all, you kept being wrong and wrong over and over again because this is easily disproved in Raiden's second story quest that those 4 are different from concepts.

 

[Weaver261]

I mean its ready explained pretty well in there, like i already said several times before, Ley Lines in Genshin contains "Memories, Histories, Elements and Souls", each of these four is treated as Concepts.

She try to reweave the leylines by using 3 concepts out of 4 of them.
First is memories and histories together, she tries to collect all memories and histories of this nation named Khaenriah that was destroyed 500 years ago.

And the next one would be soul, well, All Khaenri'ahns is getting cursed by the Curse of Immortality and they cannot die.

This is simply false.
Lumine didn't manipulate these concepts. It's said here Leyline needs "supply of memories" not "concept of memory". I hope you stop making head canons. Just bring scans that say "concept" instead of making it up on your own.

Haden: Think of Ley Lines as the collection of memories concerning a given place. To re-weave Khaenri'ah's Ley Lines as they were five hundred years ago, we would somehow need to retrieve almost all the memories of Khaenri'ah from that age.
Haden: The Loom of Fate cannot weave without an abundant supply of memories...

(Traveler's Sibling): After that, the new Khaenri'ah was enriched with memories of the old, drawn from the Abyss Order's members in their meditation sessions.
(Traveler's Sibling): With those memories as raw materials, and the superimposed realm as a template, the Loom of Fate finally finished its work.

 

[Vietthai96]

So i just want to say, is Leyline conceptual or not?, if it is the former then CM for anyone who can manipilate Leyline is fine, but if it is the latter, then i disagree with CM

I mean its ready explained pretty well in there, like i already said several times before, Ley Lines in Genshin contains "Memories, Histories, Elements and Souls", each of these four is treated as Concepts.

She try to reweave the leylines by using 3 concepts out of 4 of them.
First is memories and histories together, she tries to collect all memories and histories of this nation named Khaenriah that was destroyed 500 years ago.

And the next one would be soul, well, All Khaenri'ahns is getting cursed by the Curse of Immortality and they cannot die even when theyre in the state of nonexistence. Their souls would regenerate again.

This isn't something as changing something to fit into new definition, i think you have been interpreting this too high

 

[Voidnether]

No, sorry, i don't see anything that would support your claim,

Anyway, i'm still fine with CM if Leyline is conceptual

Leyline is only stated as a conceptual network and that's all there is, I disagree with CM given it was an ability given to those who can manipulate Leyline when you know: No one is even capable of altering the concept, I'd agree with Phanes having CM2 especially Creation cause Phanes created it but other than that, no.

You can take a look at the justification themselves, let me know what you think but yeah that's all. Yeah, it's not explained what concept was being altered there on the last sentence. It's insane tbh

 

[MSahla]

I'll show you just how misleading you are.

Khaenri'ah was superimposed over present day Natlan's space-time, it was also mentioned that they cannot host any Ley Lines anymore. New Khaenri'ah's Ley Line is still on the Loom of Fate which was then later on interrupted due to the other sibling's actions when it was activated.

The reason why there's a Khaenri'ah-based realm 500 years ago in Natlan that's superimposed on the present is because Lumine tried to place Khaenri'ah's ley lines in Natlan. Ultimately, her efforts were in vain, as the Lord of the Night declared that the Night Kingdom couldn't host the new ley lines.

So, the Khaenri'ah realm that appeared at the time was only temporary, not something that would last forever. You know what Lumine said she would find a suitable place?

 

[Voidnether]

The reason why there's a Khaenri'ah-based realm 500 years ago in Natlan that's superimposed on the present is because Lumine tried to place Khaenri'ah's ley lines in Natlan. Ultimately, her efforts were in vain, as the Lord of the Night declared that the Night Kingdom couldn't host the new ley lines.

So, the Khaenri'ah realm that appeared at the time was only temporary, not something that would last forever. You know what Lumine said she would find a suitable place?

It's still superimposed there even if it's for a limited time, this doesn't even try to refute what I meant

 

[MSahla]

It's still superimposed there even if it's for a limited time, this doesn't even try to refute what I meant

What do you want to achieve by arguing that Khaenri'ah is there temporarily? It doesn't disprove my argument that the new Khaenriah will exist and not be in Natlan.

 

[MSahla]

So i just want to say, is Leyline conceptual or not?, if it is the former then CM for anyone who can manipilate Leyline is fine, but if it is the latter, then i disagree with CM

The Ley Lines is legit said to be a Conceptual Network, and you can alter the reality with it.

 

[Voidnether]

What do you want to achieve by arguing that Khaenri'ah is there temporarily? It doesn't disprove my argument that the new Khaenriah will exist and not be in Natlan.

Wasn't it your argument? Those are literally irrelevant to CM by the way just so u know

The Ley Lines is legit said to be a Conceptual Network, and you can alter the reality with it.

That's literally the justification on the page, I don't think I or someone else have to repeat this multiple times why it's not enough

 

[MSahla]

That's literally the justification on the page, I don't think I or someone else have to repeat this multiple times why it's not enough

You just need someone to manipulate a concept with the ley lines, thats all.

Even though its already stated that its a conceptual network and can alter the reality, and all you want is somebody to prove it.

 

[Weaver261]

You just need someone to manipulate a concept with the ley lines, thats all.

Even though its already stated that its a conceptual network and can alter the reality, and all you want is somebody to prove it.

As I replied to you before, no concept is being manipulated here. You made up your own headcanon of Loom of Fate manipulating memories as concept to create new Khaenriah but it was proven wrong.

This is simply false.
Lumine didn't manipulate these concepts. It's said here Leyline needs "supply of memories" not "concept of memory". I hope you stop making head canons. Just bring scans that say "concept" instead of making it up on your own.