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The Godhead/Amaranth (The Elder Scrolls) Rework

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Re5yh

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Recently this month, I was researching and gathering hundreds of scans for the elder scrolls verse which was very overhauled since no one would want to update it. I want to do a little thing: We should change the Amaranth since its page is very painful, ugly and horrible to look at, as it should definitely be a good page for viewers to see. I would be doing the upgrades and downgrades and some reworks for the verse, and there is my blog as the final result:

THE GODHEAD

Note: If you see any mistake or inaccuracy, please note me and I will fix it.

Agree: @Qawsedf234 (Staff), @Vietthai96 (Staff), @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless (Staff)
 
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Is this essentially a rework of the profile, AND justifying why it fits current Tier 0? Can you give a summary of that?
 
I know we accept off-site developer commentary and stories as canon works, but I don't know if The Uutak Mythos was ever accepted as canonical on the wiki. I can't find evidence of it being discussed, and without explicit proof that a Bethesda Dev/Former Dev wrote that content entirely on their own, I'm not sure if it should be used as a solid justification.

Other than that, the only issues I see are that the UESP links all go to the mobile version of the website rather than the normal domain.
 
I know we accept off-site developer commentary and stories as canon works, but I don't know if The Uutak Mythos was ever accepted as canonical on the wiki. I can't find evidence of it being discussed, and without explicit proof that a Bethesda Dev/Former Dev wrote that content entirely on their own, I'm not sure if it should be used as a solid justification.

Other than that, the only issues I see are that the UESP links all go to the mobile version of the website rather than the normal domain.
Yea that needs to be talked about. I know Hoodoc from Uutak Mythos is referenced a few times in ESO related stuff as existing in Yokudan pantheon like he does in the Uutak Mythos, and that Kirkbride did help a bit with it (not this in particular but helped set the direction with the general Uutak Mythos). But I dunno if that's enough. There's also Echkins from Uutak Mythos referenced.
 
Yea that needs to be talked about. I know Hoodoc from Uutak Mythos is referenced a few times in ESO related stuff as existing in Yokudan pantheon like he does in the Uutak Mythos, and that Kirkbride did help a bit with it (not this in particular but helped set the direction with the general Uutak Mythos). But I dunno if that's enough. There's also Echkins from Uutak Mythos referenced.
Kirkbride 100% contributed something to the product and what he did os probably usable, but that doesn't make everything usable and if he didn't write the AMARANTH stuff I wouldn't use it personally.
 
Kirkbride 100% contributed something to the product and what he did os probably usable, but that doesn't make everything usable and if he didn't write the AMARANTH stuff I wouldn't use it personally.
I do think he probably did help with the more esoteric side of things but dunno if there's any confirmation on exactly what.
 
Removed the Uutak Stuff
I think it looks good! The only thing that might be left is crediting the artist who made the page image if its not an official Bethesda release.

Other than that I'm good with it. But Tier 0 profiles require 1-2 other mods to look into it, but you have my approval.
 
Look fine i guess, though where is Nonexistent Physiology?

Edit: nvm the NEP stuff, forget what i said

Edit 2: let me bring the big gun @Ultima_Reality
 
Why are you trying to say the Amaranth and The Godhead are different beings? They straight up aren't even in your own scans (and the stuff on the profile you were 'inspired' by) doesn't actually make them properly different, like, quoting the same things you're using
To the close dreamers, don't forget the Amaranth. There is one step beyond CHIM, but you're right in that it is not godhood. It's the flowering of a statehood where the images you give birth to in your dream-- stolen (?) from first dreamer-- wakes up. Wails knowing free will. And begins to dream in the same way. Children of liberty without end, and then the music lives forever as a pirate radio tuned against the rules of Heaven and the vulgarities of Hell.

Clarifying The Nature of CHIM
Amaranth is identified as the state right after CHIM
The New Man becomes God becomes Amaranth, everlasting hypnogogic. Hallucinations become lucid under His eye and therefore, like all parents of their children, the Amaranth cherishes and adores all that is come from Him.
The Nu-Man is directly called both God and the Amaranth in the same breath

Where is it written that the Godhead is mad or dreaming, a split personality and whatnot? (2009-10-10)​

cough

[Links to The Song of Pelinal, v 8.]
Now, quoting the Song of Pelinal itself, which also covers this
"... and left you to gather sinew with my other half, who will bring light thereby to that mortal idea that brings [the Gods] great joy, that is, freedom, which even the Heavens do not truly know, [which is] why our Father, the... [Text lost]... in those first [days/spirits/swirls] before Convention... that which we echoed in our earthly madness. [Let us] now take you Up. We will [show] our true faces... [which eat] one another in amnesia each Age."
This other half, which is explicitly Akatosh
And it is said that he emerged into the world like a Padomaic, that is, borne by Sithis and all the forces of change therein. Still others, like Fifd of New Teed, say that beneath the Pelinal's star-armor was a chest that gaped open to show no heart, only a red rage shaped diamond-fashion, singing like a mindless dragon, and that this was proof that he was a myth-echo, and that where he trod were shapes of the first urging. Pelinal cared for none of this and killed any who would speak god-logic, except for fair Perrif, who he said, "enacts, rather than talks, as language without exertion is dead witness." When those soldiers who heard him say this stared blankly, he laughed and swung his sword, running into the rain of Kyne to slaughter their Ayleid captives, screaming, "O Aka, for our shared madness I do this! I watch you watching me watching back! Umaril dares call us out, for that is how we made him!" [And it was during] these fits of anger and nonsense that Pelinal would fall into the Madness, where whole swaths of lands were devoured in divine rampage to become Void, and Alessia would have to pray to the Gods for their succor, and they would reach down as one mind and soothe the Whitestrake until he no longer had the will to kill the earth in whole. And Garid of the men-of-ge once saw such a Madness from afar and maneuvered, after it had abated, to drink together with Pelinal, and he asked what such an affliction felt like, to which Pelinal could only answer, "Like when the dream no longer needs its dreamer."
-Song of Pelinal v6
Who is Aka who is Anu who is the Amaranth, and given that MK posted this directly in reference to a question about the Godhead, the fact that they are one and the same cannot be denied without far much more evidence than you have, because I see no actual evidence which points towards them being different, especially if you want to bring up MK and C0DA
To add onto this Amaranth/Godhead connection is
What is the Psijic Endeavor?

The basis for the teachings of the Prophet Veloth, founder of present day Morrowind and father of Dunmeri culture. Veloth describes the Psijic Endeavor as a process of glorious apotheosis, where time itself is bent inward and outward into 'a shape that is always new'. Those who can attain this state, called chim, experience an ineffable sense of the godhead, and escape the strictures of the world-egg.
-The Thief goes to Cyrodil
Those who achieve CHIM "experience an ineffable sense of the godhead", which, considering my first quote, which explicitly says the Amaranth is the step after CHIM, them attaining knowledge of anything else but the Amaranth (and thus, the godhead) would be a reach
Quoting more stuff from The Thief
Nothing but a namesake, I am sorry to say. Now we can end that mystery. The Endeavor is a method of achieving the Tower and then what to do after. The Order is not, and does not really care for the idea of the Endeavor at all, thinking it wrong-headed nearly from the start.
What is the Tower?

The Tower is an ideal, which, in our world of myth and magic, means that it is so real that it becomes dangerous. It is the existence of the True Self within the Universal Self, and is embodied by the fourth constellation, and is guarded by the Thief, the third. The Thief is another metaphorical absolute; in this case, he represents the "taking of the Tower" or, and sometimes more importantly, the "taking" of the Tower's secret.

What is the Tower's secret?

How to permanently exist beyond duplexity, antithesis, or trouble. This is not an easy concept, I know. Imagine being able to feel with all of your senses the relentless alien terror that is God and your place in it, which is everywhere and therefore nowhere, and realizing that it means the total dissolution of your individuality into boundless being. Imagine that and then still being able to say "I". The "I" is the Tower.
You use the second half of the quote within your profile, and it refers to what happens when one views the Tower, wherein your being dissolves into the unity of God
We also know that viewing The Tower either causes Zero-Summing or reaching CHIM, and that the Endeavor, which allows one to reach CHIM, also deals with what comes after, so the step after must either be one directly related to the Godhead, and considering this was written by MK, who already said what comes after is Amaranth, God and The Amaranth, once more, must be one and the same.

In addition to this, there is the entire 36 Sermons (all of which is Vivec telling people how to reach Amaranth by-the-by)
"According to the Codes of Mephala, there is no difference between the theorist and the terrorist. Even the most cherished desire disappears in their hands. This is why Mephala has black hands. Bring both of yours to every argument. The one-handed king finds no remedy. When you approach God, however, cut both of them off. God has no need of theory and he is armored head to toe in terror."
-Sermon 11
The light bent, and Vivec awoke and grew fangs, unwilling to make of herself a folding thing. This was a new and lunar promise. And in her Biting she tunneled up and then downward, while her brother and sister smeared across heaven, thin ruptures of dissent, food for scarabs and the Worm. She took her people and made them safe, and sat with Azura drawing her own husband's likeness in the dirt.

"For I have removed my left hand and my right, he will say," she said, "for that is how I shall win against them. Love alone and you shall know only mistakes of salt."

The worlding of the words is AMARANTH.
-Sermon 37
And C0DA as a whole, but the main point I bring up here is Jubal cutting his hands (and explicitly quoting 11 against the Numidium), going on to become (part of) the Nu-Man and explicitly achieve Amaranth

There is more I could bring up, but the point should be clear: The Godhead, God, and The Amaranth/Dreamer are all the same being, attempting to say otherwise within the base TES mythos just doesn't work.
 
Why are you trying to say the Amaranth and The Godhead are different beings? They straight up aren't even in your own scans (and the stuff on the profile you were 'inspired' by) doesn't actually make them properly different, like, quoting the same things you're using

Amaranth is identified as the state right after CHIM

The Nu-Man is directly called both God and the Amaranth in the same breath

Now, quoting the Song of Pelinal itself, which also covers this

This other half, which is explicitly Akatosh

Who is Aka who is Anu who is the Amaranth, and given that MK posted this directly in reference to a question about the Godhead, the fact that they are one and the same cannot be denied without far much more evidence than you have, because I see no actual evidence which points towards them being different, especially if you want to bring up MK and C0DA
To add onto this Amaranth/Godhead connection is

Those who achieve CHIM "experience an ineffable sense of the godhead", which, considering my first quote, which explicitly says the Amaranth is the step after CHIM, them attaining knowledge of anything else but the Amaranth (and thus, the godhead) would be a reach
Quoting more stuff from The Thief


You use the second half of the quote within your profile, and it refers to what happens when one views the Tower, wherein your being dissolves into the unity of God
We also know that viewing The Tower either causes Zero-Summing or reaching CHIM, and that the Endeavor, which allows one to reach CHIM, also deals with what comes after, so the step after must either be one directly related to the Godhead, and considering this was written by MK, who already said what comes after is Amaranth, God and The Amaranth, once more, must be one and the same.

In addition to this, there is the entire 36 Sermons (all of which is Vivec telling people how to reach Amaranth by-the-by)


And C0DA as a whole, but the main point I bring up here is Jubal cutting his hands (and explicitly quoting 11 against the Numidium), going on to become (part of) the Nu-Man and explicitly achieve Amaranth

There is more I could bring up, but the point should be clear: The Godhead, God, and The Amaranth/Dreamer are all the same being, attempting to say otherwise within the base TES mythos just doesn't work.
But what does the dreamers refer to anyways?
 
There is more I could bring up, but the point should be clear: The Godhead, God, and The Amaranth/Dreamer are all the same being, attempting to say otherwise within the base TES mythos just doesn't work.
While correct, the proposed blog would still give a more detailed list of abilities and add sources for the various justifications compared to the current profile.
 
While correct, the proposed blog would still give a more detailed list of abilities and add sources for the various justifications compared to the current profile.
Fair, though I will say that the Amaranth Page is outdated or more accurately, all of its evidence is on the TES Blogs or on other pages, of note Anu, (Namira if she still had a page), Any of the Et'eda, but I'll link Aka in specific, and Vivec (as the CHIM stand-in), but yeah
I also take issue with the sandbox, but the degree to which I'm willing to comment on it is iffy and fluctuating
 
Gonna agree with Deonment about Godhead/Amaranth stuff though it is probably not a big issue since they are name for a singular thing

So who going to update Alduin and Dragonborn??
 
Recently this month, I was researching and gathering hundreds of scans for the elder scrolls verse which was very overhauled since no one would want to update it. I want to do a little thing: We should delete the Amaranth since it's page is very inaccurate (As it is not really the actual supreme being of the verse), the Godhead should definitely be a good page rather than the amaranth page. I would be doing the upgrades and downgrades and some reworks for the verse, but I reworked on the Godhead (since it was deleted likely 7 years ago) and there is my blog as the final result:

THE GODHEAD

Note: If you see any mistake or inaccuracy, please note me and I will fix it.

Agree: @Qawsed234 (Staff), @Vietthai96 (Staff)
Godhead is such a bland term, it seems more of the second-hand way of saying The Amaranth. The page literally shows they're one and the same. Just keep the name.
 
Godhead is such a bland term, it seems more of the second-hand way of saying The Amaranth. The page literally shows they're one and the same. Just keep the name.
Ok, so would you and me rework on the elder scrolls cause damn, it's outdated as hell
 
Ok, so would you and me rework on the elder scrolls cause damn, it's outdated as hell
I trust @FaxNovuuuuu to deal with all things Elder Scrolls related. He's the one with timeless knowledge, I only consult with scans and interpretation, so asking him is the best choice. I already have my own issue to deal with in another department.
 
Godhead is such a bland term, it seems more of the second-hand way of saying The Amaranth. The page literally shows they're one and the same. Just keep the name.
I mean, it's the name of the figure

God or The Godhead is the ultimate being, Amaranth is the name of the "state" the Godhead experiences of Hypnogogy, both are identitical, but if you want a name to call it, I would call it the former

My issue is that I don't think there should be a Godhead/Amaranth page at all, and we should just list the stuff about it on the respective pages (ANU, Vivec, Jubal, Nu-Men (whenever the latter two are created)), but eh
 
I mean, it's the name of the figure

God or The Godhead is the ultimate being, Amaranth is the name of the "state" the Godhead experiences of Hypnogogy, both are identitical, but if you want a name to call it, I would call it the former

My issue is that I don't think there should be a Godhead/Amaranth page at all, and we should just list the stuff about it on the respective pages (ANU, Vivec, Jubal, Nu-Men (whenever the latter two are created)), but eh
You gotta take it to higher management for their opinion on the matter or just the Elder Scroll chat.
 
I mean, it's the name of the figure

God or The Godhead is the ultimate being, Amaranth is the name of the "state" the Godhead experiences of Hypnogogy, both are identitical, but if you want a name to call it, I would call it the former

My issue is that I don't think there should be a Godhead/Amaranth page at all, and we should just list the stuff about it on the respective pages (ANU, Vivec, Jubal, Nu-Men (whenever the latter two are created)), but eh
To add something. If ANU is the only being that scales to it ie a key for it then I'm fine. I do know it is a state, but, obviously multiple profiles can't have a 0 key, or else it is better to have a separate profile.
 
To add something. If ANU is the only being that scales to it ie a key for it then I'm fine. I do know it is a state, but, obviously multiple profiles can't have a 0 key, or else it is better to have a separate profile.
Honestly, we should merge The Amaranth with Anu
 
To add something. If ANU is the only being that scales to it ie a key for it then I'm fine. I do know it is a state, but, obviously multiple profiles can't have a 0 key, or else it is better to have a separate profile.
I disagree. If a person attains Amaranth, they get the key. Removing the key doesn't make sense when it's not like God is an entirely separate entity; they "become" God, ANU is God, Jubal is God, Vivec is God, The Nu-Man is God.

There isn't a rule against multiple profiles or characters having a tier 0 key; the issue is when multiple beings are tier 0. That's what the unity section of omnipotence is all about.
Honestly, we should merge The Amaranth with Anu
Anu isn't the only person who attained Aramanth that we know of (see the above), so fusing it into Anu's profile is just wrong
 
I disagree. If a person attains Amaranth, they get the key. Removing the key doesn't make sense when it's not like God is an entirely separate entity; they "become" God, ANU is God, Jubal is God, Vivec is God, The Nu-Man is God.
That shows overeduency. We have other profiles on 0 beings that attest to non-duslism, and they have just one profile for it because everything would be “0” since there's an inherent lack of true existence outside God.

So keeping it to one profile is fine, but when you add it to all the profiles, then nothing is different about them because what they are in the not-God-state is the difference. However, the inverse notion makes it useless because they're not real in the sense that only God in the end exists, so their identity is useless thus the profile would only mean something if the Godhead is its own page that warrants explanation.

So, no, every profile having a “God” key ie 0 is not a good thing.
There isn't a rule against multiple profiles or characters having a tier 0 key; the issue is when multiple beings are tier 0. That's what the unity section of omnipotence is all about.
That's not what I'm saying. You can have multiple 0s inherently if the cosmology is branded towards a unification of being from the ground of being, but it becomes contrived if you list every character as having it as a “trait.” It will be better left as a separate page.
Anu isn't the only person who attained Aramanth that we know of (see the above), so fusing it into Anu's profile is just wrong
If ANU attain “Aramanth” but it isn't limited to him then that's just proves that “everything” is just God, so all the profiles would be 0. That's a problem.
 
That shows overeduency. We have other profiles on 0 beings that attest to non-duslism, and they have just one profile for it because everything would be “0” since there's an inherent lack of true existence outside God.

So keeping it to one profile is fine, but when you add it to all the profiles, then nothing is different about them because what they are in the not-God-state is the difference. However, the inverse notion makes it useless because they're not that in the sense that they are only truly God in the end.

So, no, every profile having a “God” key ie 0 is not a good thing.

That's not what I'm saying. You can have multiple 0s inherently if the cosmology is branded towards a unification of being from the ground of being, but it becomes contrived if you list every character as having it as a “trait.”
And that isn't what I'm saying either, the people I mentioned are the ones who attained Amaranth, this isn't a matter of giving everyone 0, this is a matter of giving the key to the people who actually attained Amaranth, and thus are relevantly 0.

2 profiles, that'll eventually cap at 3, and that's it.

To not give them profiles would be like not giving characters, in a verse based upon Buddhism, a tier 0 key after they attain Nirvana, and instead creating a page for Nirvana. It's bad indexing and just wrong based on the source material itself.
If ANU attain “Aramanth” but it isn't limited to him then that's just proves that “everything” is just God, so all the profiles would be 0.
Anu is God, yes, but he isn't the only one to have achieved Amaranth; we know this directly and explicitly.

I will repeat, I am not saying everyone should get a tier 0 key, I am saying Anu, Vivec, and Jubal-La-Sun (when the profile gets made) will get the key, nobody else.
 
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