Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

[MugenKage]

Also, is there a difference between the two Soul Resurrection abilities in Secret Rings and Black Knight? Cause the Secret Rings one is listed as “Self-Resurrection” while the Black Knight one is listed as Type 2 Immortality.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Seriously? Well shouldn’t be too tough a change, right?

Nope! However, even small additions such as these typically require a Content Revision Threat (CRT). Which is why people usually find extra miscellaneous/forgotten additions to make it into a CRT of greater substance.

I’ve been using it for Sonic vs Mario debates on Reddit for a while, kinda puts a stop to the “Well Sonic can’t kill Mario cause of his bottomless gloves + retry clocks/earlier times so ggs” cause reliant immorality is realllll nice

Ahhh, I see!

Granted we do have that through Soul Surge (either with Shahra's Ring or Caliburn) via stuff like the different Soul Resurrections depending on which one is being used. The Bottomless Gloves + Retry Clock has been countered long ago, thankfully, doubly so as more n more things with Hammerspace Manip is uncovered.

As a side note, the Sonic v Mario rivalry is pretty dead on this wiki at the moment due to the lack of aligned tiers between them; it's like kicking a man when he's down. Though the rivalry is always ready to bubble underneath the surface, the Bowser v Eggman DB showed that

 

[ShakeResounding]

Also, is there a difference between the two Soul Resurrection abilities in Secret Rings and Black Knight? Cause the Secret Rings one is listed as “Self-Resurrection” while the Black Knight one is listed as Type 2 Immortality.

I also think that's an error of the past mainly because we lacked footage of Secret Rings' Souk Surge. As of recently though, it seems they function the same so it would both be just Type 2 Immortality.

 

[MugenKage]

Nope! However, even small additions such as these typically require a Content Revision Threat (CRT). Which is why people usually find extra miscellaneous/forgotten additions to make it into a CRT of greater substance.

Hm, so would it be better to start compiling a bunch of stuff that could have been missed and just lump them all into one CRT? Just so multiple don't have to opened up.

Ahhh, I see!

Granted we do have that through Soul Surge (either with Shahra's Ring or Caliburn) via stuff like the different Soul Resurrections depending on which one is being used. The Bottomless Gloves + Retry Clock has been countered long ago, thankfully, doubly so as more n more things with Hammerspace Manip is uncovered.

Yeahhhh but its a little more limited than Excalibur's Scabbard as Sonic NEEDS to have energy in his Soul Gauge to cheat death.

Really? How'd it get debunked? That info could be real useful to me!

As a side note, the Sonic v Mario rivalry is pretty dead on this wiki at the moment due to the lack of aligned tiers between them; it's like kicking a man when he's down. Though the rivalry is always ready to bubble underneath the surface, the Bowser v Eggman DB showed that

Jeez, that bad? Not even an equal stats matchup?

That's kinda where I'm at, at some point those two are gonna get their trilogy concluding episode, and I just wanna make sure I cover all bases when the time comes to defend our Blue Blur (They thought the war ended at Eggman vs Bowser? WRONG! That war is never over so long as I breathe and a new one is on the horizon!)

 

[MugenKage]

I also think that's an error of the past mainly because we lacked footage of Secret Rings' Souk Surge. As of recently though, it seems they function the same so it would both be just Type 2 Immortality.

Cool! Just something I noticed (I'm a frequent visitor to the different Sonic pages)

Speaking of (and I know i'm kinda running rampant with questions, just tell me stop and I will if you want me to), why is the Metal Virus considered "Greater Transmutation" and not layered transmutation? Is it because it does it over time? And if it was layered, would Super forms have 2 layers of a resistance based on being unaffected by it?

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

Also that animation went so damn hard for no reason and is a very helpful visual guide as to what the races look like from an in-verse perspective.

I am totally gonna be using clips from these for my CrossWorlds-related project.

Shadow was the protag of that ENTIRE race and it went DUMMY. Goes to show Shadow's actual raw skill in racing and vehicles as shown in Shadow 06. Bro EASILY blew Jet the FRAUD out of the water. Bro aura farmed, saved a pretty lady, raced against his rival (and main character of the franchise), easily beat Jet with negative difficulty, and won the whole thing.

Tell me he's not Ultimate without lying fr!

 

[ShakeResounding]

Hm, so would it be better to start compiling a bunch of stuff that could have been missed and just lump them all into one CRT? Just so multiple don't have to opened up.

Exactly!

Yeahhhh but its a little more limited than Excalibur's Scabbard as Sonic NEEDS to have energy in his Soul Gauge to cheat death.

True, it would be pretty good to note at that rate.

Really? How'd it get debunked? That info could be real useful to me!

Ah, not a debunk lol, just that Sonic has ways to counter it.

Jeez, that bad? Not even an equal stats matchup?

Well, that is probably a bit more fair, but the main issue is Sonic's in-character speed amps such as the Boost and Spin Dash.

Speaking of (and I know i'm kinda running rampant with questions, just tell me stop and I will if you want me to), why is the Metal Virus considered "Greater Transmutation" and not layered transmutation? Is it because it does it over time? And if it was layered, would Super forms have 2 layers of a resistance based on being unaffected by it?

Ah, denoting it as "Greater" is just a way of blatantly stating it's superior to other forms within the verse. The layer is usually in the beginning of the ability description (like the Jade Ghost's layered intangibility).

And yes, the Metal Virus would be 2 Layers with a 2-Layer Resistance for Supers

Baseline Transmutation Resistance (Sonic, Shadow, and others) -> 1 Layer (Metal Virus infects Shadow, who is resistant to both Transmutation and Diseases so it counts as a layer for Transmutation and should not be excised of working via being a disease) -> 1 Layer Resistance (Sonic can withstand interacting with Shadow's mutated strain and continue to burn it off) -> 2 Layers (Eggman notes Sonic was carrying an evolved strain and likely passed it on on that treadmill. Gemerl notes Sonic is starting to be incapable of burning the MV) -> 2 Layer Resistance (Super Sonic burns it off effortlessly).

I would have to do a bit further digging, but there was an argument for 3 layers I had lying around.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Shadow was the protag of that ENTIRE race and it went DUMMY. Goes to show Shadow's actual raw skill in racing and vehicles as shown in Shadow 06. Bro EASILY blew Jet the FRAUD out of the water. Bro aura farmed, saved a pretty lady, raced against his rival (and main character of the franchise), easily beat Jet with negative difficulty, and won the whole thing.

Tell me he's not Ultimate without lying fr!

An amazingly entertaining and perfect capstone to the Year of GOATdow.

Shadow the Hedgehog's 3rd game when?

 

[LaserPrecision]

I would have to do a bit further digging, but there was an argument for 3 layers I had lying around.

You talking about my doc?

 

[TheStinkeer]

EXTREMELY late response cause I found this on the forums a few days before I made an account, but I find it a little funny how when it went over the Titans it ignored Tails going "wait even as Super Sonic this guy could cook you" when he saw Knight, as well as how it argues Super doesn't have invulnerability when some of the clips there would also help make a case for Super form's invulnerability

Not to mention how you can literally tell the entire channel is AI generated is also just

 

[MugenKage]

Exactly!

Cool! So far we've got a couple things, like the Violet Void, Aquis Badnik (Honestly I feel like we should research the other Badniks to see if there's anything important that could have also been missed, like the Gold Klagen from Sonic Heroes), Excalibur's Scabbard, and the Soul Resurrection!

Ah, not a debunk lol, just that Sonic has ways to counter it.

Ah, that makes more sense, and yeah, hammerspace manipulation being the main one

Well, that is probably a bit more fair, but the main issue is Sonic's in-character speed amps such as the Boost and Spin Dash.

Trueeee

Ah, denoting it as "Greater" is just a way of blatantly stating it's superior to other forms within the verse. The layer is usually in the beginning of the ability description (like the Jade Ghost's layered intangibility).

... Sorry, does that mean "Greater" > "Layers"? Just a bit confusing for me since I usually just use layers during debates

And yes, the Metal Virus would be 2 Layers with a 2-Layer Resistance for Supers

Baseline Transmutation Resistance (Sonic, Shadow, and others) -> 1 Layer (Metal Virus infects Shadow, who is resistant to both Transmutation and Diseases so it counts as a layer for Transmutation and should not be excised of working via being a disease) -> 1 Layer Resistance (Sonic can withstand interacting with Shadow's mutated strain and continue to burn it off) -> 2 Layers (Eggman notes Sonic was carrying an evolved strain and likely passed it on on that treadmill. Gemerl notes Sonic is starting to be incapable of burning the MV) -> 2 Layer Resistance (Super Sonic burns it off effortlessly).

I would have to do a bit further digging, but there was an argument for 3 layers I had lying around.

Hold on a second, WHAT?! This is insane! Do you know how useful this would have been during the Eggman vs Bowser waiting period?! I was CONVINCED that Bowser's most powerful win con was the Wonder Flower and its layered transmutation! Is there any way at all that could validate Eggman being able to resist the 1 layer of transmutation the Wonder Flower has? (Btw, I feel like that's something that should be touched upon in the main profiles. In fairness I don't fully understand how you run things here, but I feel clarifying layers would be easier to understand than just saying its "greater")

My mind is officially blown!

 

[MugenKage]

You talking about my doc?

... GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME-

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

An amazingly entertaining and perfect capstone to the Year of GOATdow.

Shadow the Hedgehog's 3rd game when?

I LOVE this ultimate creature! Wanna see more of him.

 

[ShakeResounding]

... Sorry, does that mean "Greater" > "Layers"? Just a bit confusing for me since I usually just use layers during debates

Nonono, not at all, just that the "Greater" connotation is supposed to be an indicator that whatever hax is better than before while being an alternative to the "Enhanced" connotation you see flying around on hax.

For example, Modern Sonic has "Greater Acrobatics" because he shows improved agility feats and because "Enhanced Acrobatics" sounds lame and off. That doesn't mean he has "layered acrobatics " (not even sure how THAT would work lolol)

For something to be a layer, it HAS to be expkicitly noted to have a layer somewhere.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Hold on a second, WHAT?! This is insane! Do you know how useful this would have been during the Eggman vs Bowser waiting period?! I was CONVINCED that Bowser's most powerful win con was the Wonder Flower and its layered transmutation! Is there any way at all that could validate Eggman being able to resist the 1 layer of transmutation the Wonder Flower has?

Yeah, it was actually a fairly big upset that Transmutation was deemed a giant wincon.

Against the fodder it would work, but not against the High-Tiers (Metal because of Base Neo Metal alone resisting it, Sage because of her uninteractable physiology, Eggman because he'd have the Emeralds on his person or would upon Sage simulating the best outcome to keep him alove).

As well as plenty of other reasons, but the majority of us knew Bowser was going to win anyways.

 

[Remus1998]

EXTREMELY late response cause I found this on the forums a few days before I made an account, but I find it a little funny how when it went over the Titans it ignored Tails going "wait even as Super Sonic this guy could cook you" when he saw Knight, as well as how it argues Super doesn't have invulnerability when some of the clips there would also help make a case for Super form's invulnerability

Not to mention how you can literally tell the entire channel is AI generated is also just

Great yaaaaaay rolls eyes

 

[Remus1998]

... GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME-

Greedy ass

 

[MugenKage]

Nonono, not at all, just that the "Greater" connotation is supposed to be an indicator that whatever hax is better than before while being an alternative to the "Enhanced" connotation you see flying around on hax.

For example, Modern Sonic has "Greater Acrobatics" because he shows improved agility feats and because "Enhanced Acrobatics" sounds lame and off. That doesn't mean he has "layered acrobatics " (not even sure how THAT would work lolol)

For something to be a layer, it HAS to be expkicitly noted to have a layer somewhere.

So why isn’t the Metal Virus listed as being layered transmutation (and by extension anyone who’s resisted it having a layered resistance)?

 

[MugenKage]

Yeah, it was actually a fairly big upset that Transmutation was deemed a giant wincon.

Against the fodder it would work, but not against the High-Tiers (Metal because of Base Neo Metal alone resisting it, Sage because of her uninteractable physiology, Eggman because he'd have the Emeralds on his person or would upon Sage simulating the best outcome to keep him alove).

As well as plenty of other reasons, but the majority of us knew Bowser was going to win anyways.

Pain🫩

 

[MugenKage]

Greedy ass

I need me some more ways to show that my Lightman should have taken his rightful W against Bowser

 

[LaserPrecision]

... GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME-

Top secret

 

[MugenKage]

Top secret

If its so top secret, it better be good!

 

[LaserPrecision]

If its so top secret, it better be good!

Oh it will be.

 

[Snek]

Yeah, it was actually a fairly big upset that Transmutation was deemed a giant wincon.

Against the fodder it would work, but not against the High-Tiers (Metal because of Base Neo Metal alone resisting it, Sage because of her uninteractable physiology, Eggman because he'd have the Emeralds on his person or would upon Sage simulating the best outcome to keep him alove).

The weird thing to me is how arbitrary transmutation gg felt because not only did it fail to account for the resistances to transmutation possesed by Infinite, the Death Egg Robot (Forces version) and anything with Chaos Energy and or a super form but it also ignored how that logic could be applied to Eggman.

For example Eggman has several mechs with multivesal stats while Bowser only really has himself when empowered by a multivesal artifact and afew items that reach that tier. So that in mind why can't I just say multivesal ap gg since Eggman could have one multivesal mech fight Bowser but have the rest of them do other thing's. And this is especially the case because Kamek and King Boo despite being haxlords are base Mario level with few hax resistances to my knowledge so I don't see how Eggman couldn't just one shot either of them with the Time Eaters warping arm attack for example.

Not to say that the transmutation is bad though, Im just saying Kamek one shotting Time Eater by turning it into a block is just as plausible as Time Eater atomizing Kamek with a single slap and therefore both arguments are overly simplistic (not that anyone actually brought up Eggman having at least one Titan, the Egg Wizard, the Time Eater and the Egg Salamander operating simultaneously while he could become Lightman Eggman as an advantage which is unfortunate in retrospect when stat wise Bowser is by himself).

As well as plenty of other reasons, but the majority of us knew Bowser was going to win anyways.

Shame we did too. Frankly Death Battle is often too predictable (at least with Sonic) and honestly their arguments in that episode did a disservice to the matchup and not in a blatantly wrong kind of way which was the case for Mario vs Sonic 2, but in more of a "made the laziest arguments possible" kind of way and didn't engage with the matchup to the same extent as the community. That and the analysis felt manipulative as well, emotionally for sure hence why they made team loyalty an advantage for Bowser despite Eggman having an army that is quite literally loyal by design. But also sometimes it also felt like they were dismissive of thing's Eggman had in sleezy ways as well, such as when they brought up universal Grand Stars to say they were equal to the Chaos Emeralds for their Sonic Rush feat but then said arguably the Grand Stars aren't as powerful because the Chaos Emeralds empowered the multivesal Solaris (that isn't arguable at all because they literally did that so the wording is manipulative) but then tried to dismiss the notion of Chaos Emeralds > Grand Stars by claiming that it wouldn't matter because Bowser has more Grand Stars...like what.

 

[MugenKage]

The weird thing to me is how arbitrary transmutation gg felt because not only did it fail to account for the resistances to transmutation possesed by Infinite, the Death Egg Robot (Forces version) and anything with Chaos Energy and or a super form but it also ignored how that logic could be applied to Eggman.

For example Eggman has several mechs with multivesal stats while Bowser only really has himself when empowered by a multivesal artifact and afew items that reach that tier. So that in mind why can't I just say multivesal ap gg since Eggman could have one multivesal mech fight Bowser but have the rest of them do other thing's. And this is especially the case because Kamek and King Boo despite being haxlords are base Mario level with few hax resistances to my knowledge so I don't see how Eggman couldn't just one shot either of them with the Time Eaters warping arm attack for example.

Not to say that the transmutation is bad though, Im just saying Kamek one shotting Time Eater by turning it into a block is just as plausible as Time Eater atomizing Kamek with a single slap and therefore both arguments are overly simplistic (not that anyone actually brought up Eggman having at least one Titan, the Egg Wizard, the Time Eater and the Egg Salamander operating simultaneously while he could become Lightman Eggman as an advantage which is unfortunate in retrospect when stat wise Bowser is by himself).

ME! I MADE THOSE ARGUMENTS! I PREACHED THEM MORE THAN ANYONE OVER ON REDDIT! I even gave multiple options for how that could be pulled off! Like the Eggrobo', Little Fighters, and Phantom Ruby clones controlling his mechs and Time Eater, Sage summoning the 4 Titans, Super Neo/Metal Overlord, Lightman, at any point in the battle Eggman could have had up to EIGHT of his high tiers on the field at once while Bowser was limited to 1 high tier transformation at a time!

Shame we did too. Frankly Death Battle is often too predictable (at least with Sonic) and honestly their arguments in that episode did a disservice to the matchup and not in a blatantly wrong kind of way which was the case for Mario vs Sonic 2, but in more of a "made the laziest arguments possible" kind of way and didn't engage with the matchup to the same extent as the community. That and the analysis felt manipulative as well, emotionally for sure hence why they made team loyalty an advantage for Bowser despite Eggman having an army that is quite literally loyal by design. But also sometimes it also felt like they were dismissive of thing's Eggman had in sleezy ways as well, such as when they brought up universal Grand Stars to say they were equal to the Chaos Emeralds for their Sonic Rush feat but then said arguably the Grand Stars aren't as powerful because the Chaos Emeralds empowered the multivesal Solaris (that isn't arguable at all because they literally did that so the wording is manipulative) but then tried to dismiss the notion of Chaos Emeralds > Grand Stars by claiming that it wouldn't matter because Bowser has more Grand Stars...like what.

It honestly feels like the community put more of an effort into researching the matchup than the actual researchers for the episode

 

[MugenKage]

Hope you all have a good day/night! I’m off to sleep now

 

[McFriesGuy075]

We know it was bias, they wouldn't have it any other way

 

[MysticMania]

Not to mention how you can literally tell the entire channel is AI generated is also just

i cannot imagine being in a discussion community just to have a virus discuss for you.

 

[TheStinkeer]

Should the Time Eater page have a note about how it still has the ability to erase space-time in SXSG? Even ignoring the JP dialogue since it technically isn't the original script, (although I'd say it's still worth considering due to the Sonic franchise being a Japanese IP,) with all the outside statements about it erasing/destroying space-time I think it could be concluded that consuming dimensional energy leads to erasing space-time, especially since Time Eater consuming dimensional energy means the Sonics still have to restore space-time like before. Plus I know 2 sources that I could show if I can, although one is of questionable validity and the other I can't find the source for, but it does say White Space is a "mysterious void outside of space and time." (It does confuse me how it's outside of space and time despite being a space itself, but the same goes for how erased space-time goes there, but I'm probably just overthinking it with how it isn't considered normal space)

Forgot to put those sources down

• famitsu.com (Although like the Polygon source, I don't know of this ones reliability)
• Scan with no known source (I found this screenshot on twitter)

- I also recall one of the forum members (theuser I think?) posting a screenshot from one of the official JP Sonic accounts that stated Time Eater was erasing space-time by moving through it, or something like it, but I couldn't find it

 

[Foxthefox1000]

We know it was bias, they wouldn't have it any other way

The research team actually likes Sonic for the most part. Ben likes Sonic.

They just don't agree with the justifications and ratings this site has for Sonic. Doesn't make them the devil.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Also I'm gonna hope the resistance to transmutation comes from the wisps cause I don't like relying on the chaotix recital

 

[McFriesGuy075]

The research team actually likes Sonic for the most part. Ben likes Sonic.

They just don't agree with the justifications and ratings this site has for Sonic. Doesn't make them the devil.

Nah, im not talking about them not liking Sonic. They do favor Archie Sonic a whole lot more though, if you're talking about what Sonic they like, it's probably him.

It's pretty obvious they favor Mario over Sonic.

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

 

[Starsprite53]

Baseline Transmutation Resistance (Sonic, Shadow, and others) -> 1 Layer (Metal Virus infects Shadow, who is resistant to both Transmutation and Diseases so it counts as a layer for Transmutation and should not be excised of working via being a disease) -> 1 Layer Resistance (Sonic can withstand interacting with Shadow's mutated strain and continue to burn it off) -> 2 Layers (Eggman notes Sonic was carrying an evolved strain and likely passed it on on that treadmill. Gemerl notes Sonic is starting to be incapable of burning the MV) -> 2 Layer Resistance (Super Sonic burns it off effortlessly).

Starsprite disagrees with that, but Starsprite will adress that months later.

 

[MysticMania]

So CrossWorlds' character stats have 5 categories and each stat is ordered from highest to lowest. This is honestly boring for me, but minus Boost, I know what each "type"s stat order is, now.

Handling-type Racer stats from highest to lowest: Handling, Acceleration, Boost, Power, Speed.
Speed-type Racer stats from highest to lowest: Speed, Power, Handling, Boost, Acceleration.
Power-type Racer stats from highest to lowest: Power, Boost, Speed, Acceleration, Handling.
Acceleration-type Racer stats from highest to lowest: Acceleration, Speed, Power, Handling, Boost.

I assume Boost might have Power as its lowest stat since none of the other ones have it as their worst. I assume Boost will be Boost, Handling, Acceleration, Speed, Power.

 

[MysticMania]

I was really hoping it would be character dependent, since that'd give more variety to the roster.

 

[LukeChaosBlobz]

Cool! So far we've got a couple things, like the Violet Void, Aquis Badnik (Honestly I feel like we should research the other Badniks to see if there's anything important that could have also been missed, like the Gold Klagen from Sonic Heroes), Excalibur's Scabbard, and the Soul Resurrection!

Ah, that makes more sense, and yeah, hammerspace manipulation being the main one

Trueeee

... Sorry, does that mean "Greater" > "Layers"? Just a bit confusing for me since I usually just use layers during debates

Hold on a second, WHAT?! This is insane! Do you know how useful this would have been during the Eggman vs Bowser waiting period?! I was CONVINCED that Bowser's most powerful win con was the Wonder Flower and its layered transmutation! Is there any way at all that could validate Eggman being able to resist the 1 layer of transmutation the Wonder Flower has? (Btw, I feel like that's something that should be touched upon in the main profiles. In fairness I don't fully understand how you run things here, but I feel clarifying layers would be easier to understand than just saying its "greater")

My mind is officially blown!

Badnik pages aren’t too hard to make, you could totally make one yourself if you’d like too!

 

[Theuser789]

Ben likes Sonic.

*Ben likes Archie Sonic. There's a very big difference in liking Archie versus the Games.

Anyways, when does the Joker festival start?

 

[ShakeResounding]

The research team actually likes Sonic for the most part. Ben likes Sonic.

Liking a franchise doesn't automatically mean those people are incapable of spite. What is this logic?

Do you want to look me in my face and tell me Mario v Sonic 2 was not filled with spite?

They just don't agree with the justifications and ratings this site has for Sonic. Doesn't make them the devil.

If you were more eager to listen rather than pick a fight and pretending you're right, the majority here NEVVER claimed the stats are why we cry bias. We already expected their stats to be vastly different than ours.

Your subtle antagonistic attitudes any time you appear in this thread is getting me very annoyed, doubly so because you then never reply and run out of the thread. Don't pretend like you know us and our reasonings when you don't even respect us.

I will never forget the time you came to the Sonic General thread before Frontiers dropped and begged us not to make **** of Sage, like we need to be told that shit. If you can delude yourself into thinking we are personally drawing NSFW of a ghost girl then you clearly have no respect for anybody here.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Starsprite disagrees with that, but Starsprite will adress that months later.

As expected.