Attack Potency Nahida (Genshin Impact)

[Furina003]

Sumeru has been around for a long time, but Nahida attack potency is still unknown. So, in this CRT, I would like to propose increasing Nahida attack potency to 7A.
Nahida is the god of Sumeru or Archon Dendro. Zhongli explains "No matter how weak the god, the power that flows forth when they are slain is beyond the strength of mortal coils to bear"
Skirk also explains something similar, that powerful beings in Teyvat, one of which is a god, are beings capable of influencing the world simply by their birth, and gods cannot be completely destroyed. This statement explains that "god" is not just a title or designation, but refers to powerful beings in teyvat who are beyond the limits of humanity.

Moreover, vision is the source of human power, and vision is only a small part of the elemental power given by the archons. Nahida is also able to withstand Scaramouche attacks (here) and destroy part of Scaramouche body. This part of the body cannot even be destroyed by Sumeru Traveler.

So, from everything I have explained, Nahida as the Archon Dendro should be stronger than humans or Vision users such as Alhaitham, Tighnari, or Dehya, who have an attack potency of 7A.

Agree: @FinePoint @Godernet (Posibillity 7a)

Neutral:

Disagree: @ActuallySpaceMan42

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

Hmmm. Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[OmniScalator]

Agree, it's reasonable although imo kinda lowball, still better than nothing

 

[Nexussy7543]

I agree

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Moreover, vision is the source of human power, and vision is only a small part of the elemental power given by the archons. Nahida is also able to withstand Scaramouche attacks (here) and destroy part of Scaramouche body. This part of the body cannot even be destroyed by Sumeru Traveler.

I wanna put a correction here because she was only able to do this after he was defeated by Traveler upon obtaining knowledge from people of sumeru
Otherwise 7-A is completely fine

 

[Furina003]

I wanna put a correction here because she was only able to do this after he was defeated by Traveler upon obtaining knowledge from people of sumeru
Otherwise 7-A is completely fine

ok thanks

 

[Frostyyyy12]

Nahida is the god of Sumeru or Archon Dendro. Zhongli explains "No matter how weak the god, the power that flows forth when they are slain is beyond the strength of mortal coils to bear"

Of course we don’t apply this to every god or mortal, otherwise we’d have contradictory scales. Are we even sure that gods can output the energy that they release when they die in combat?

Skirk also explains something similar, that powerful beings in Teyvat, one of which is a god, are beings capable of influencing the world simply by their birth, and gods cannot be completely destroyed.

The statement you’re referring to uses gods as a common example, she’s not limiting that part to only the gods. She’s saying that they’re such examples. It’s not basis to say that they’re beyond the limits of humanity.

Moreover, vision is the source of human power, and vision is only a small part of the elemental power given by the archons.

The visions are a small part of the archon’s mastery, not elemental power. They are two different things.

It’s not that i disagree with Nahida being 7A but more like, i disagree with the idea of her being stronger than these humans. This is what Dainsleif says:


5:37

 

[Furina003]

The statement you’re referring to uses gods as a common example, she’s not limiting that part to only the gods. She’s saying that they’re such examples. It’s not basis to say that they’re beyond the limits of humanity.

there is no need for an implied statement, because skirk's statement clearly describes a powerful being and that is a god.

The visions are a small part of the archon’s mastery, not elemental power. They are two different things.

This power refers to elementals, which is why vision is able to bring out elementals

It’s not that i disagree with Nahida being 7A but more like, i disagree with the idea of her being stronger than these humans. This is what Dainsleif says:

same in what sense? does not imply that it is on a power scale, even dainsleaf explains that the power of the gods is something that humans cannot understand

 

[OmniScalator]

Of course we don’t apply this to every god or mortal, otherwise we’d have contradictory scales. Are we even sure that gods can output the energy that they release when they die in combat?

I am pretty sure that statement is pretty applicable, although i agree it may not be concrete enough for combat power

The statement you’re referring to uses gods as a common example, she’s not limiting that part to only the gods. She’s saying that they’re such examples. It’s not basis to say that they’re beyond the limits of humanity.

Well yes gods are used as example, and may not be beyond limits of humanity, but only exceptional humans with special circumstances may match or surpass gods imo, like dottore who can't be called human anymore due to segments, capitano with modified heart and skirk who may not actually be human since her species have some sort of affinity towards enrgies or something like that.

The visions are a small part of the archon’s mastery, not elemental power. They are two different things.

Yes, but i think it is safe to say Nahida have more elemental power than any average human

It’s not that i disagree with Nahida being 7A but more like, i disagree with the idea of her being stronger than these humans. This is what Dainsleif says:

Well, i think OP didn't actually meant all humans that is why they only proposed scaling to 7-A else there are humans in genshin who are listed as 6-B too

 

[Frostyyyy12]

there is no need for an implied statement, because skirk's statement clearly describes a powerful being and that is a god.

No, skirk’s statement says that gods are common examples of this, thus it cannot be used as basis to say that they’re beyond the limits of humanity. That wouldn’t line up.

This power refers to elementals, which is why vision is able to bring out elementals

Elemental mastery is not the same as elemental energy or power. I can have more elemental mastery than you and you can still be stronger than me. That’s all the archons give, a small part of their mastery(just the bare minimum ability to control elements, the hax), they then use the vision to harness the elements from the environment.

same in what sense? does not imply that it is on a power scale

The sentence quite literally is on a powerscale. He’s saying that there are gods who lack strength, and because of that, they lack any advantage above humans. This is contextually referring to the likes of Nahida.

even dainsleaf explains that the power of the gods is something that humans cannot understand

Same dainsleif in her collected miscellany says that something like this is just normal misconception, and that the truth is actually that they are simply other living beings in tevyat, and there can be gods who are as weak as humans.

 

[Frostyyyy12]

I am pretty sure that statement is pretty applicable,

I don’t disagree with that, but the issue is with applying it to any mortals we want to, like Dehya or Al-haitham. I highly doubt Nahida is stronger than Al-haitham.

Well yes gods are used as example, and may not be beyond limits of humanity, but only exceptional humans with special circumstances may match or surpass gods imo, like dottore who can't be called human anymore due to segments, capitano with modified heart

Capitano’s heart doesn’t affect his strength, and even without the heart i’m sure he was extremely strong (more like Khaenri’ahns in general to be honest). Dottore i agree, likely did upgrades on himself.

Like, there are so many exceptions even for the gods. For example, Bifrons is a demon god who wasn’t able to defend himself against a baby tantankasaurus and the entire quest was about people just clowning on him for being weak(besides the traveler too).

and skirk who may not actually be human since her species have some sort of affinity towards enrgies or something like that.

Not really relevant to the topic but she implies that both her and Surtalogi are superior to the likes of humanity, so she wouldn’t be human. Surtalogi also says in Skirk’s character stories that she would’ve died if she was a human, so that implies she is not one.

Yes, but i think it is safe to say Nahida have more elemental power than any average human

It depends on what we define “average” human as. Dainsleif talks as if Nahida doesn’t have an advantage over mere mortals, that clearly implies otherwise.

 

[Furina003]

No, skirk’s statement says that gods are common examples of this, thus it cannot be used as basis to say that they’re beyond the limits of humanity. That wouldn’t line up.

Skirk stated clearly, I think that's enough, because he gave the example of god as a very powerful entity.

Elemental mastery is not the same as elemental energy or power. I can have more elemental mastery than you and you can still be stronger than me. That’s all the archons give, a small part of their mastery(just the bare minimum ability to control elements, the hax), they then use the vision to harness the elements from the environment.

this is clearly talking about elementals, just like the archons who gained some of the sovereign's power, hence why humans can control elementals

The sentence quite literally is on a powerscale. He’s saying that there are gods who lack strength, and because of that, they lack any advantage above humans. This is contextually referring to the likes of Nahida.


Same dainsleif in her collected miscellany says that something like this is just normal misconception, and that the truth is actually that they are simply other living beings in tevyat, and there can be gods who are as weak as humans.

it only talks about the archons who are not the rulers of Teyvat, where the archons are just another form of life like humans, not talking about power.

 

[Frostyyyy12]

Skirk stated clearly, I think that's enough, because he gave the example of god as a very powerful entity.

Yes? It’s a common example, that’s my point, you can’t use it as a basis to say “they’re superior to humanity”, it just means that gods are very common beings with great power.

this is clearly talking about elementals, just like the archons who gained some of the sovereign's power, hence why humans can control elementals

Not “clearly” talking about elemental power, it’s talking about elemental mastery, elemental mastery and elemental energy are two different things. They can control the elements, which is not the same thing as outputting a certain amount of energy in your attack for example. And i disagree with the sovereign’s authority giving raw power anyway, instead hax.

it only talks about the archons who are not the rulers of Teyvat, where the archons are just another form of life like humans, not talking about power.

Not sure if you saw this statement:

“A god who lacks strength may have little to no advantage even over mere mortals”

They are simply just another life form living in tevyat, so there are even gods who lack strength and thus have no advantage over mere mortals.

 

[Furina003]

Yes? It’s a common example, that’s my point, you can’t use it as a basis to say “they’re superior to humanity”, it just means that gods are very common beings with great power.

oh yeah i see, i didn't imply that for all gods,
we have to look at it case by case, that's why Nahida was placed in 7A, not 6B

Not “clearly” talking about elemental power, it’s talking about elemental mastery, elemental mastery and elemental energy are two different things. They can control the elements, which is not the same thing as outputting a certain amount of energy in your attack for example. And i disagree with the sovereign’s authority giving raw power anyway, instead hax.

I don't see that, because vision is a tool to control elements

Not sure if you saw this statement:

“A god who lacks strength may have little to no advantage even over mere mortals”

They are simply just another life form living in tevyat, so there are even gods who lack strength and thus have no advantage over mere mortals.

Nahida is an archon, obviously she has Elemental authority.
I have explained everything I understand, so I will not elaborate further, so that this CRT can be evaluated easily.

 

[Frostyyyy12]

I don't see that, because vision is a tool to control elements

The archon gives them the mastery. They use that vision to harness the elemental power from their surrounding environment. Like for example, their vision is the medium through which they channel elemental energy, this is how Layla speaks of it as.

You would then get current venti without a gnosis > Wanderer if this is the case.

Nahida is an archon, obviously she has Elemental authority.

Yeah, she has elemental authority. But having that elemental authority doesn’t mean she has strength, which is why she has no advantage over mere mortals.

Anyway yeah.

 

[Furina003]

The archon gives them the mastery. They use that vision to harness the elemental power from their surrounding environment. Like for example, their vision is the medium through which they channel elemental energy, this is how Layla speaks of it as.

You would then get current venti without a gnosis > Wanderer if this is the case.


Yeah, she has elemental authority. But having that elemental authority doesn’t mean she has strength, which is why she has no advantage over mere mortals.

Anyway yeah.

the element of authority is very influential with raw power, we can see it from venti, he was just an ordinary wind spirit before becoming an archon, and the comparison of neuvillette before getting his authority back and after getting his authority back

 

[Frostyyyy12]

the element of authority is very influential with raw power, we can see it from venti, he was just an ordinary wind spirit before becoming an archon,

The flaw in this proof is that Venti also got a gnosis, which is a tool used to gather large amounts of elemental energy. The gnosis in and of itself is different from the authority, as Neuvi says that he doesn’t need the power of the gnosis, even after getting the authority back.

and the comparison of neuvillette before getting his authority back and after getting his authority back

Neuvi is heavily debatable and an entirely different can of worms, and i don’t necessarily think he got a boost in power after gaining the authority, he got more hax over hydro.

For example, Nahida’s ability to control dreams is also because of her Dendro Authority.

 

[Furina003]

The flaw in this proof is that Venti also got a gnosis, which is a tool used to gather large amounts of elemental energy. The gnosis in and of itself is different from the authority, as Neuvi says that he doesn’t need the power of the gnosis, even after getting the authority back.



Neuvi is heavily debatable and an entirely different can of worms, and i don’t necessarily think he got a boost in power after gaining the authority, he got more hax over hydro.

For example, Nahida’s ability to control dreams is also because of her Dendro Authority.

gnosis and authority are indeed different, but, because nahida still has elements of authority, I think that is enough to prove that nahida does have the power as an archon, even though she does not as strong to be zhongli or raiden shogun

 

[OmniScalator]

Well since we know visions are able to conjure up elemental energy due to elemental mastery given by Archons, and we also know visions are made by two things which are fragment of elemental mastery of god and soul of vision holders

And we have I think heard somewhere that visions are powered by ambitions

So I think it is safe to conclude visions get ability to channel elemental energy due to mastery provided by gods but amount of elemental energy would depend on maybe something like "lifeforce" or ambitions of person.

 

[Frostyyyy12]

and it is not appropriate to discuss it further now,

Yeah, maybe in a different thread. This is derailing too much. I don’t agree with the idea of having elemental authority = power, and i think elemental authority = hax. This is actually supported by dainsleif.

 

[Furina003]

Yeah, maybe in a different thread. This is derailing too much. I don’t agree with the idea of having elemental authority = power, and i think elemental authority = hax. This is actually supported by dainsleif.

That's okay, thanks for the input. We just need to wait for the staff to evaluate it.

 

[Frostyyyy12]

Well since we know visions are able to conjure up elemental energy due to elemental mastery given by Archons, and we also know visions are made by two things which are fragment of elemental mastery of god and soul of vision holders

That’s the mastery of the element, yeah. The baseline is that gaining mastery = you are able to “control” elements better. For example:

I have 0 EM, that means i can’t control elements at all.

I have 1 EM, that means i can bare minimum use the elements, command them.

I have 10 EM, now my energy blast is not stronger, but i can now heal, use more hax related to my element(like creating some construct within my strength).

Now i have 10 EM, and 10 strength. I can now create a large blast with strength capable of blowing a building.

And we have I think heard somewhere that visions are powered by ambitions

So I think it is safe to conclude visions get ability to channel elemental energy due to mastery provided by gods but amount of elemental energy would depend on maybe something like "lifeforce" or ambitions of person.

It’s been shown empirically numerous times that elemental power depends on ambition as you said. For example, Amber gains a massive elemental output boost after going through an ambitious and determined speech in the Manga, this is the same for Shenhe, and for Kazuha, or the entire plot of the 99vis traveler.

 

[Furina003]

Bump

 

[Voidnether]

This is the same argument as why Focalors should upscale above Vision Holders even if both her and Nahida don't even have any combat feat related, hence why both of them are unknown (Saying Nahida should be upscaled because of this, would also mean Focalors would be upscaled but that doesn't make sense when the Hydro Archon simply doesn't exist, right?). That's also the case with Nahida, I disagree unless there's a proper combat feat that has been demonstrated and shown by Nahida other than her just supporting the Traveler everytime. Archon's powers don't work like that, Venti got away even if he was the "weakest" among the Seven was later contradicted by him being capable of splitting the biggest mountain and then a fragment of the timeline

Scaramouche's case, both him and Nahida were in an illusion. You can call it as a dreamscape, which just warrants nothing at all. I still lean to Nahida being Unknown. Also if it ever gets anything, it's only a durability feat.

 

[PedjaTarzan]

This is the same argument as why Focalors should upscale above Vision Holders even if both her and Nahida don't even have any combat feat related, hence why both of them are unknown (Saying Nahida should be upscaled because of this, would also mean Focalors would be upscaled but that doesn't make sense when the Hydro Archon simply doesn't exist, right?). That's also the case with Nahida, I disagree unless there's a proper combat feat that has been demonstrated and shown by Nahida other than her just supporting the Traveler everytime. Archon's powers don't work like that, Venti got away even if he was the "weakest" among the Seven was later contradicted by him being capable of splitting the biggest mountain and then a fragment of the timeline

Scaramouche's case, both him and Nahida were in an illusion. You can call it as a dreamscape, which just warrants nothing at all. I still lean to Nahida being Unknown.

then i hit you with: Genshin is UES so nahida durability transfers to AP RAHHHHH

 

[Voidnether]

then i hit you with: Genshin is UES so nahida durability transfers to AP RAHHHHH

Top 100 things wrong with UES

 

[Furina003]

This is the same argument as why Focalors should upscale above Vision Holders even if both her and Nahida don't even have any combat feat related, hence why both of them are unknown (Saying Nahida should be upscaled because of this, would also mean Focalors would be upscaled but that doesn't make sense when the Hydro Archon simply doesn't exist, right?). That's also the case with Nahida, I disagree unless there's a proper combat feat that has been demonstrated and shown by Nahida other than her just supporting the Traveler everytime. Archon's powers don't work like that, Venti got away even if he was the "weakest" among the Seven was later contradicted by him being capable of splitting the biggest mountain and then a fragment of the timeline

Scaramouche's case, both him and Nahida were in an illusion. You can call it as a dreamscape, which just warrants nothing at all. I still lean to Nahida being Unknown. Also if it ever gets anything, it's only a durability feat.

I don't understand what you mean, this doesn't even refute anything

 

[Voidnether]

I don't understand what you mean, this doesn't even refute anything

Obviously you're going to say it like that if you're just gonna discard it lol

 

[Furina003]

Obviously you're going to say it like that if you're just gonna discard it lol

what you discussed doesn't even have anything to do with the scaling Chain I proposed.

 

[Voidnether]

what you discussed doesn't even have anything to do with the scaling Chain I proposed.

Obviously you're going to say it like that if you're just gonna discard it lol

 

[Furina003]

You just need to explain how focalor relates to the scaling chain I proposed, attack potential isn't about whether a character has fought or not, but about the energy they can release. Even ordinary humans can gain attack potential, so I proposed a scaling chain from the many feats I outlined.

 

[Voidnether]

You just need to explain how focalor relates to the scaling chain I proposed, attack potential isn't about whether a character has fought or not, but about the energy they can release. Even ordinary humans can gain attack potential, so I proposed a scaling chain from the many feats I outlined.

Because with that logic, it would upscale Focalors too. Except if you want to say it so blatantly that Focalors would still be Unknown, then I'd lean with a possibly rating given the UES

 

[Furina003]

Because with that logic, it would upscale Focalors too. Except if you want to say it so blatantly that Focalors would still be Unknown, then I'd lean with a possibly rating given the UES

ok, on this crt only discusses about Nahida.
for focalor? maybe I will discuss it in a separate CRT,

 

[Furina003]

Bump

 

[Furina003]

bump

 

[Shey]

Sumeru has been around for a long time, but Nahida attack potency is still unknown. So, in this CRT, I would like to propose increasing Nahida attack potency to 7A.
Nahida is the god of Sumeru or Archon Dendro. Zhongli explains "No matter how weak the god, the power that flows forth when they are slain is beyond the strength of mortal coils to bear"
Skirk also explains something similar, that powerful beings in Teyvat, one of which is a god, are beings capable of influencing the world simply by their birth, and gods cannot be completely destroyed. This statement explains that "god" is not just a title or designation, but refers to powerful beings in teyvat who are beyond the limits of humanity.

The amount of power they possess and the amount of power they can command are different aspects of their strength

Moreover, vision is the source of human power, and vision is only a small part of the elemental power given by the archons.

Nahida is also able to withstand Scaramouche attacks (here)

Are we deadass? He blows right through her body and this is her dream

and destroy part of Scaramouche body.
This part of the body cannot even be destroyed by Sumeru Traveler.

Former the mech is completely inactive, latter it is active, inapplicable

So, from everything I have explained, Nahida as the Archon Dendro should be stronger than humans or Vision users such as Alhaitham, Tighnari, or Dehya, who have an attack potency of 7A.

Disagree, for reasons given by Void and Frosty
Leave her at Unknown

 

[Furina003]

The amount of power they possess and the amount of power they can command are different aspects of their strength



Are we deadass? He blows right through her body and this is her dream

Former the mech is completely inactive, latter it is active, inapplicable

Disagree, for reasons given by Void and Frosty
Leave her at Unknown

With just a little bit of archon power, they can do something on the scale of 7A, like ronova and istaroth who shared a little of their power with mavuika and venti making them much stronger.
I've discussed it before, so let's wait for the evaluation for crt, thank you for your input

 

[Furina003]

bump

 

[FinePoint]

Upscaling from humans is probably fine based on the context, sure.

 

[Godernet]

Given some of the arguments provided, I'd probably lean neutral for now or more in favor of a possibly rating.