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Lord of the Rings Discussion Thread

Hey gang, sorry for my long period of inactivity here. For some reason I don't get notifications for LotR threads. How are the Ainur upgrades going?
 
Really? I still see Gandalf's pre-Ea form as Low 1-C
Thread passed, but no one has applied it
 
Thread passed, but no one has applied it
I still need to make a justification and such to actually apply to the pages on my end. Discussing it with two others, but I haven't really had time irl to work on it beyond this year old prototype below

Outerverse level (The Ainur, as described by Eru, are considered to be powerful and genuine entities, being capable of shaking the Timeless Voids as a result of their strife during the Music of the Ainur. As beings that exist in a realm beyond the world depicted in The Lord of the Rings, the Ainur perceive the space-time of Eä as a lower and secondary plane of existence, with them dwelling alongside Eru within the Timeless Halls, a higher and more primary level of existence) possibly High Outerverse level+ (Sub-creators, the creators of stories and myth within the Primary Reality, are described as possessing "no bounds, but the laws of contradiction" in their capacity as "writers". As the "highest created beings" created by Eru, the Ainur are potentially similar existences to the "writers" of the Primary Reality, with the Ainur possessing "special 'sub-creative' powers" as a result of their knowledge and guarantee from Eru)

Still needs work
 
I think it's really hard to make a good High 1-A+ justification because the rules for that tier are pretty vague and confusing anyway. That said, the Ainur fit the justification as perfectly as anything can.
 
I think it's really hard to make a good High 1-A+ justification because the rules for that tier are pretty vague and confusing anyway. That said, the Ainur fit the justification as perfectly as anything can.
Oh right, I'll respond to your on that suggestion when I find time.
What still needs to be done that we can help you with? Anything on our end?
Not too sure right now tbh. I suppose implementing once the pages are unlocked. It'd pretty much just be copy and pasting into each relevant profile.

That aside, any ideas for the Outerversal description? I think the High 1-A+ side is mostly okay, just some additional tweaks. The 1-A one's just 1 to 1 with the current Low 1-C and is the more outdated one.
 
Oh right, I'll respond to your on that suggestion when I find time.
Oh, no rush. I just commented because I had made a thread before asking question about the High 1-A+ tier on this site. It's a tricky tier to write justification for, so I just wanted to give more options.
 
Hi! Since there's a lot of ongoing modifications regarding the "Tolkienverse", I'd like to propose this simple edit (I'm pasting and adapting a comment I made on the CRT).

I suggest changing the labels of classification on the Maiar/Valar pages with something akin to this:


Gandalf, Classification: Incarnated Maia, Istar, Member of the White Council | Maia | Ainu
(I've already changed this one since I noticed it lacked the "Ainu" label, but it was a minor change)

Saruman, Classification: Incarnated Maia, Fallen White Wizard | Maia | Ainu

Sauron, Classification: Maia, Lieutenant to Morgoth, Dark Lord of Mordor, Ringmaker, King of Men, Lord of the World, The Lord of the Rings | Ainu

Morgoth, Classification: Vala (formerly), Dark Lord | Ainu

Manwë, Classification: Vala | Ainu

Melian, Classification: Maia, Queen of Doriath | Ainu


And so on? That way it might be more intuitive to understand which classification refers to which key.


Secondly, I think we should also discuss about the Lord of the Rings/Legendarium main page, since it should be modified accordingly to the last changes. If I'm not wrong it wasn't updated even when the Ainur and Eru were moved from Low 2-C/2-C to Low 1-C, so it definitely needs at least a slight rework, now that Eru is tier 0 (which was actually added to the main page) and the Ainur "Prior to entering Eä" are 1-A, possibly High 1-A+.
 
Hi! Since there's a lot of ongoing modifications regarding the "Tolkienverse", I'd like to propose this simple edit (I'm pasting and adapting a comment I made on the CRT).

I suggest changing the labels of classification on the Maiar/Valar pages with something akin to this:


Gandalf, Classification: Incarnated Maia, Istar, Member of the White Council | Maia | Ainu
(I've already changed this one since I noticed it lacked the "Ainu" label, but it was a minor change)

Saruman, Classification: Incarnated Maia, Fallen White Wizard | Maia | Ainu

Sauron, Classification: Maia, Lieutenant to Morgoth, Dark Lord of Mordor, Ringmaker, King of Men, Lord of the World, The Lord of the Rings | Ainu

Morgoth, Classification: Vala (formerly), Dark Lord | Ainu

Manwë, Classification: Vala | Ainu

Melian, Classification: Maia, Queen of Doriath | Ainu


And so on? That way it might be more intuitive to understand which classification refers to which key.


Secondly, I think we should also discuss about the Lord of the Rings/Legendarium main page, since it should be modified accordingly to the last changes. If I'm not wrong it wasn't updated even when the Ainur and Eru were moved from Low 2-C/2-C to Low 1-C, so it definitely needs at least a slight rework, now that Eru is tier 0 (which was actually added to the main page) and the Ainur "Prior to entering Eä" are 1-A, possibly High 1-A+.
I'm pretty much in support for this kind of change. Only real change would be adding Istar (Former) and Fallen Istar to Saruman instead of Fallen White Wizard, but that's a minor difference. Alternatively have Grey Wizard (Former) and White Wizard added to Gandalf alongside Wizard of Many Colours to Saruman

The main page has been needing a change for a while but it's been on the extreme back end of all my upcoming threads and I'm kinda on a semi-hiatus for the wiki right now atm so it's even more delayed.

Someone writing up a new description for that would be great.

Btw, here's the current mega-thread if you want to post it there, but a new thread might be a better idea? I'm not sure.
 
I'm pretty much in support for this kind of change. Only real change would be adding Istar (Former) and Fallen Istar to Saruman instead of Fallen White Wizard, but that's a minor difference. Alternatively have Grey Wizard (Former) and White Wizard added to Gandalf alongside Wizard of Many Colours to Saruman

The main page has been needing a change for a while but it's been on the extreme back end of all my upcoming threads and I'm kinda on a semi-hiatus for the wiki right now atm so it's even more delayed.

Someone writing up a new description for that would be great.

Btw, here's the current mega-thread if you want to post it there, but a new thread might be a better idea? I'm not sure.
Alright, that'd be fighting against my own digital illiteracy, but as soon as I'm able to get on my PC I'll try to make a thread or a post with all the proposed changes/additions.
 
Greetings again, my merry fellows.

Since someone has already taken care of updating the LotR main page (whoever it was, thank you!), I'll just write here on the mega-thread my proposed modifications, as they're just stylish changes that I don't think deserve a dedicated thread.

In particular I suggest changing the labels of classification on the Maiar/Valar, so that it might be more intuitive to understand which classification refers to which key. It's not a huge nor urgent change, but it might really improve the pages readability, so whenever the need arises we may proceed.
The character pages this minor edit would involve, and the proposed labels would be the following:



Gandalf, Classification: Incarnated Maia, Istar, Grey Wizard, Member of the White Council | Incarnated Maia, Istar, White Wizard | Maia | Ainu
(I've already changed this one since I noticed it lacked the "Ainu" label, but it was a minor change)
(Key: Gandalf the Grey | Gandalf the White | Within the confines of Eä | Prior to entering Eä) => every label refers to a single key

Saruman, Classification: Incarnated Maia, Fallen Istar | Incarnated Maia, Istar (Former), White Wizard (Former), Wizard of Many Colours | Maia | Ainu
(Key: Diminished | Saruman the White/of Many Colours | Within the confines of Eä | Prior to entering Eä) => every label refers to a single key

Sauron, Classification: Maia, Lieutenant to Morgoth, Dark Lord of Mordor, Ringmaker, King of Men, Lord of the World, The Lord of the Rings | Ainu
(Key: First Age | Second Age | Last Alliance | War of the Ring | Prior to entering Eä) => the first set of labels refers to the first four keys (in this case it would be wise, my friend it would be better not to add too many different separated labels, as it would just be repetitive)

Morgoth, Classification: Vala (formerly), Dark Lord, Great Enemy, Black Foe of the World | Ainu
(Key: Following his corruption of Eä | Within the confines of Eä | Prior to entering Eä)

Balrogs (Lord of the Rings), Classification: Fallen Maia, "Demon(s) of the Ancient World", Valaraukar | Ainu
(Key: Within the confines of Eä | Prior to entering Eä)

Gothmog (Balrog), Classification: Fallen Maia (Balrog) | Ainu
(Key: Within the confines of Eä | Prior to entering Eä)

Arien, Classification: Maia, Guardian of the Sun | Ainu
(Key: Within the confines of Eä | Prior to entering Eä)

Tilion, Classification: Maia, Guardian of the Moon | Ainu
(Key: Within the confines of Eä | Prior to entering Eä)

Ilmarë, Classification: Maia, Handmaid of Varda, Chief of the Maiar | Ainu
(Key: Within the confines of Eä | Prior to entering Eä)

Melian, Classification: Maia, Queen of Doriath | Ainu
(Key: Within the confines of Eä | Prior to entering Eä)

Ossë, Classification: Maia of the Sea, Vassal of Ulmo, (briefly) Servant of Melkor | Ainu
(Key: Within the confines of Eä | Prior to entering Eä)

Eönwë, Classification: Maia, Herald of Manwë, Chief of the Maiar | Ainu
(Key: Within the confines of Eä | Prior to entering Eä)

Aulë, Classification: Vala, Arata, Maker of the Dwarves | Ainu
(Key: Within the confines of Eä | Prior to entering Eä)

Estë, Classification: Vala (Valië) | Ainu
(Key: Within the confines of Eä | Prior to entering Eä)

Irmo, Classification: Vala, Fëanturi, Lord of the Gardens of Lórien | Ainu
(Key: Within the confines of Eä | Prior to entering Eä)

Mandos, Classification: Vala, Arata, Fëanturi, Lord of the Halls of Mandos | Ainu
(Key: Within the confines of Eä | Prior to entering Eä)

Manwë, Classification: Vala, Arata, King of Valinor, King of the Valar, High King of Arda, Elder King, Lord of the Breath of Arda, Vicegerent of Eru | Ainu
(Key: Within the confines of Eä | Prior to entering Eä)

Nessa (The Silmarillion), Classification: Vala (Valië) | Ainu
(Key: Within the confines of Eä | Prior to entering Eä)

Nienna, Classification: Vala (Valië), Arata, Sister of the Fëanturi | Ainu
(Key: Within the confines of Eä | Prior to entering Eä)

Oromë, Classification: Vala, Arata | Ainu
(Key: Within the confines of Eä | Prior to entering Eä)

Tulkas, Classification: Vala | Ainu
(Key: Within the confines of Eä | Prior to entering Eä)

Ulmo, Classification: Vala, Arata, King of the Seas, Lord of Waters, Dweller of the Deep | Ainu
(Key: Within the confines of Eä | Prior to entering Eä)

Varda, Classification: Vala (Valië), Arata, Queen of the Valiër and Valar, "Starkindler" | Ainu
(Key: Within the confines of Eä | Prior to entering Eä)

Vairë, Classification: Vala (Valië) | Ainu
(Key: Within the confines of Eä | Prior to entering Eä)

Vána, Classification: Vala (Valië) | Ainu
(Key: Within the confines of Eä | Prior to entering Eä)

Yavanna, Classification: Vala (Valië), Arata | Ainu
(Key: Within the confines of Eä | Prior to entering Eä)


Note: Aside from Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron and Morgoth which I thought needed some better display of their keys, I changed especially the Valiër classification, since as you might know "Valië" is the correct singular form of the feminine version of "Vala" (which is either masculine or generic), meanwhile the pages usually said "Valier": a minor change but now is more correct. The rest were rather small updates.



These are the proposed changes, share your thoughts and suggestions freely and whenever there is some consensus we may go on with the modifications.

Farewell!
 
IT IS THIS DAY!
I think Tolkien's understanding of cosmology and metaphysics is deeper than can imagine. We've just scratched the surface. There was some condescension towards Lord of the Rings (2-C Eru? really?), as if Tolkien was a simpleton who couldn't conceive of meta-fiction, alternate reality, or qualitative superiority, when in fact his cosmology is filled with interesting metaphysics, including many ideas unique to Tolkien that just haven't been thought of anywhere else.
 
Could use some support here
 
Oh my, I sure missed a lot since my last interaction here

Right now I willing to start to re-read the Legendarium on his original English language
 
Btw, for those who like match-ups, LotR 9-B and GoT 9-B characters are now, after this revision, pretty comparable at 20,374,274.7647 (LotR) Joules vs 12,827,856.9776 Joules (GoT HBO). GoT cast even has Subsonic reaction speed (I think it's 6x lower than LotR Subsonic feats though)

LotR characters hold the raw power advantage, but it's not even a 2x difference so you can probably do some fun match-ups.

I don't recommend using Aragorn though. He's a bit loaded for GoT 9-Bs (not sure about White Walkers).
 
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Btw, for those who like match-ups, LotR 9-B and GoT 9-B characters are now, after this revision, pretty comparable at 20,374,274.7647 (LotR) Joules vs 12,827,856.9776 Joules (GoT HBO). GoT cast even has Subsonic reaction speed (I think it's 6x lower than LotR Subsonic feats though)

LotR characters hold the raw power advantage, but it's not even a 2x difference so you can probably do some fun match-ups.

I don't recommend using Aragorn though. He's a bit loaded.
You do not know the monster you've unleashed.
 
Btw, for those who like match-ups, LotR 9-B and GoT 9-B characters are now, after this revision, pretty comparable at 20,374,274.7647 (LotR) Joules vs 12,827,856.9776 Joules (GoT HBO). GoT cast even has Subsonic reaction speed (I think it's 6x lower than LotR Subsonic feats though)

LotR characters hold the raw power advantage, but it's not even a 2x difference so you can probably do some fun match-ups.

I don't recommend using Aragorn though. He's a bit loaded.
Class 50 LS is going to **** up a lot of GOT characters. I am also working on a subsonic upgrade for the Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas, and Boromir.
 
"Burn them all" I say.
 
I wish I knew what value LotR 9-A characters were scaled at. Man that's a rough one.
 
I'm guessing you checked Gazef's skill section too lmfao
Tbf, Boromir did manage to fight over a hundred Uruks at once and he's not even the best mortal warrior, even if he's up there...

But he did die doing it so yeah. At least he killed dozens.
 
Tbf, Boromir did manage to fight over a hundred Uruks at once and he's not even the best mortal warrior, even if he's up there...

But he did die doing it so yeah. At least he killed dozens.
You also have to remember that even when he doesn't have the treasures giving him amps, Gazef spams the living hell out of Martial Arts. As in his PnA, including a 3x Speed amp.
 
Btw, for those who like match-ups, LotR 9-B and GoT 9-B characters are now, after this revision, pretty comparable at 20,374,274.7647 (LotR) Joules vs 12,827,856.9776 Joules (GoT HBO). GoT cast even has Subsonic reaction speed (I think it's 6x lower than LotR Subsonic feats though)

LotR characters hold the raw power advantage, but it's not even a 2x difference so you can probably do some fun match-ups.

I don't recommend using Aragorn though. He's a bit loaded.
Aragorn stomping Jon snow MUST HAPPEN 💪
 
You also have to remember that even when he doesn't have the treasures giving him amps, Gazef spams the living hell out of Martial Arts. As in his PnA, including a 3x Speed amp.
Well, at least Andúril exists!... "restricted" damn it!
 
Well, at least Andúril exists!... "restricted" damn it!
If you give Aragorn his murder High 7-A sword, you give Gazef the treasures meaning he doesn't burn himself out in like ten minutes because Martial Arts spam does that to people.
 
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