Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I mean more of just being there for being there's sake. I see "This is the first Sonic character officially to have no pronouns at all." and it gives me certain vibes that certain modern media does to get points with a certain crowd purely for just for that. Feels like a gloat if you get me.

So long as it's executed well and is relevant, should be cool. All I care about is execution. Needs to be written well.

I won't say anything on the Kris thing cuz, honestly, I don't really care either way. It's a game, so it doesn't affect me all that much.

I see what you mean, IDW is kinda bland narratively and is hard carried by the artwork that tricks readers into thinking the story will be as detailed and colourful as the major character designs but it's pretty by the books, straightforward and with little actual stakes/tension (Scrapnik Island was a major outlier tbh).

It'll be pretty disingenuous to introduce the "first ..... Sonic character" then like clockwork becomes yet another underutilised side character that'll be lucky to get one noteworthy appearance in mainline Sonic content once a year after the initial debut.

Look at Trip, she got introduced in Sonic Superstars (2023) as a main character with her own unique Super form. Nearly two years later after her initial debut, the only major content she's gotten was a single comic with Knuckles that did explore more about her tribe and lore (that should've been in game tbh, the Black Onyx did kinda come out of nowhere) yet she's already quite a forgettable character not helped by the fact she's trapped in the "classic era" like Honey, Mighty, Ray, etc.

Lunar is an interesting premise but I just feel like by next year, most Sonic fans will be like "Lunar who?"

 

[Out'o'Sound]

At 11 seconds in, Omega lists this location as an Eggman base, and intends to return to it later to destroy it. This seems in conflict with the idea of the levels being simulations.

To complement this, when the characters enter the Cross World from White Space Sonic comments "Ah come on, I fixed this!". Why would Sonic say that if he knows it's a simulation?

0:40

 

[LukeChaosBlobz]

I think it should be mentioned that it is not just a joke

It kinda is just a joke

 

[ShakeResounding]

To complement this, when the characters enter the Cross World from White Space Sonic comments "Ah come on, I fixed this!". Why would Sonic say that if he knows it's a simulation?

I have never met a game dev team more eager to put out information that just seems impossible to work together.

If Sonic and the others are aware these are simulations, then it's as you said. Comments like Omega noting an Eggman Base and Sonic being exasperated at White Space don't really seem to make sense. While one could argue Sonic is just doing banter (which doesn't make sense to me but sure), Omega isn't really a character that can be excused with that reasoning.

Very interesting...

 

[LukeChaosBlobz]

Does JP mention anything about simulations? Sonic’s JP line was something about being sick of time travel when entering White Space

 

[Out'o'Sound]

I have never met a game dev team more eager to put out information that just seems impossible to work together.

If Sonic and the others are aware these are simulations, then it's as you said. Comments like Omega noting an Eggman Base and Sonic being exasperated at White Space don't really seem to make sense. While one could argue Sonic is just doing banter (which doesn't make sense to me but sure), Omega isn't really a character that can be excused with that reasoning.

Very interesting...

Yeah, also, Omega just now recognizing Mystic Jungle as one of Eggman's base makes perfect sense, since in Forces he was absent for practically the entire game.

 

[LukeChaosBlobz]

Does JP mention anything about simulations? Sonic’s JP line was something about being sick of time travel when entering White Space

Does this not sorta confirm time travelling?

 

[LukeChaosBlobz]

 

[Out'o'Sound]

Does JP mention anything about simulations? Sonic’s JP line was something about being sick of time travel when entering White Space

Not yet, we'll have to wait and see if the rival dialogue between Tails and Eggman mentions simulations in the Japanese version as well.

 

[Theuser789]

"kris is actually just an insert for the player"

A character not being a self-insert doesn't mean that it can't be ambiguous. Those two facts are unrelated; self-insert characters can have clear genders and NPCs can be mysterious and ambiguous. Anyway, Nights did it first before Lunar, let's hope people aren't annoying about it.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Does this not sorta confirm time travelling?

Well, a simulation CAN technically still be Time/Dimensional travel, just through... well, simulated dimensions.

We'll just have to wait for the full release tbh. If JP has absolutely ZERO trace of simulation talk, then it would be stronger confirmation. But there may still be one.

 

[Alexander]

it is CONFUSING more than ANYTHING, more than anything, OH MORE THAN ANYTHING

 

[Out'o'Sound]

 

[Omegabronic]

I think I understand what you mean. Personally, I think it can be good to make it clear that this is absolutely the intent. Even when it's made extremely clear through in-universe dialogue, you'll still have weirdos say "kris is actually just an insert for the player", and such. Bigots will choose to be stupid regardless of the context, of course, so one shouldn't write nor create with them in mind. But still, I'm down to see it confirmed directly.

i don't think people not agreeing that a character is or isn't a specific gender makes them "bigots"... that is too much

 

[Out'o'Sound]

Sonic mentions Shahra
He even wonders if she's out there
I mean, why would Sonic say that if he's in a simulation?

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

These multiverse doubts about Crossworlds honestly remind of the backlash Prime got, aside from the "ending" the premise was misleading instead of "Sonic traveling through a strange new multiverse", it's was pretty obvious a good chunk the animation budget went on New Yoke City and the four other shatterspaces were just left bland, genetic and empty. Not really much of a multiverse is it?

 

[Alexander]

These multiverse doubts about Crossworlds honestly remind of the backlash Prime got, aside from the "ending" the premise was misleading instead of "Sonic traveling through a strange new multiverse", it's was pretty obvious a good chunk the animation budget went on New Yoke City and the four other shatterspaces were just left bland, genetic and empty. Not really much of a multiverse is it?

more like multi-universe

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

I see what you mean, IDW is kinda bland narratively and is hard carried by the artwork that tricks readers into thinking the story will be as detailed and colourful as the major character designs but it's pretty by the books, straightforward and with little actual stakes/tension (Scrapnik Island was a major outlier tbh).

I didn't mean IDW is the issue. just more of the handling of a lot of modern-media is the issue. I quite like IDW a lot. I like to see to see the new stuff it brings. For a Sonic comic, compared to Archie, it definitely did need to be reigned in big-time. I think Sonic's getting a better foothold these days and the recent comic is looking pretty good. I just hope it keeps this momentum.

It'll be pretty disingenuous to introduce the "first ..... Sonic character" then like clockwork becomes yet another underutilised side character that'll be lucky to get one noteworthy appearance in mainline Sonic content once a year after the initial debut.

Look at Trip, she got introduced in Sonic Superstars (2023) as a main character with her own unique Super form. Nearly two years later after her initial debut, the only major content she's gotten was a single comic with Knuckles that did explore more about her tribe and lore (that should've been in game tbh, the Black Onyx did kinda come out of nowhere) yet she's already quite a forgettable character not helped by the fact she's trapped in the "classic era" like Honey, Mighty, Ray, etc.

Lunar is an interesting premise but I just feel like by next year, most Sonic fans will be like "Lunar who?"

Yeah, I just want this aspect of the character to not be a flavorless add-on that hardly does anything, I want the character to have some relevance that isn't derived from hype alone, and I want to see it all be written well in a neat bow. I don't want them to go the way of Infinite or Trip with Lunar immediately rendered useless outside of the arc they're in. I already had some doubts from how Mimic was handled, so I only hope it gets better. Honestly, I hope they focus more on the actual characters we have now than the new ones, personally. Though, as long as they write the new characters well, I won't be bothered all-too much.

 

[RedReaper616]

Neat little interaction.

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

Neat little interaction.

Ayo.... They kinda FREAKY...

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Snip

Yeah, I'm kinda miffed about Warlock Infinite is locked to a mobile game, such a great design with the implications of better control and skill over his powers yet it's likely he'll be buried for a long time until the next Generations-like game comes out in the future and he'll be a legacy boss similar to Mephiles (but at least Mephiles was allowed to appear in the Archie Comics).

I'm just concerned that with IDW consistently adding new OCs (still too afraid to have background humans tho) alongside the legacy cast with Sage appearing soon, that it might lead another block of character bloat.

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

Yeah, I'm kinda miffed about Warlock Infinite is locked to a mobile game, such a great design with the implications of better control and skill over his powers yet it's likely he'll be buried for a long time until the next Generations-like game comes out in the future and he'll be a legacy boss similar to Mephiles (but at least Mephiles was allowed to appear in the Archie Comics).

I'm just concerned that with IDW consistently adding new OCs (still too afraid to have background humans tho) alongside the legacy cast with Sage appearing soon, that it might lead another block of character bloat.

I mean, it's not like we were going to get any of these skins outside of the game anyway. It's of no real consequence. Infinite has a cool design enough as it is, so I don't care about that too much, tbh.

Also, yeah I agree. I hope they reign that in. This is a SONIC comic, not OC central. I like a lot of the new characters, I just don't want it to become the Diamond Cutter show 2.0 where we hardly focused on the characters we WANTED to see.

 

[Alexander]

I'm just concerned that with IDW consistently adding new OCs (still too afraid to have background humans tho) alongside the legacy cast with Sage appearing soon, that it might lead another block of character bloat.

i don't understand, weren't Tails, Amy, Knuckles and the bunch, OCS when they first arrived?are we implying no character was or ever is, a OCS?

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

i don't understand, weren't Tails, Amy, Knuckles and the bunch, OCS when they first arrived?are we implying no character was or ever is, a OCS?

That wasn't the point???? Nor was that the implication??? Don't overcomplicate it LMAO.

 

[ArthurBeyy]

It kinda is just a joke

Do you have any proof that it's a joke?

 

[MysticMania]

A character not being a self-insert doesn't mean that it can't be ambiguous. Those two facts are unrelated; self-insert characters can have clear genders and NPCs can be mysterious and ambiguous.

I understand what you mean, but Kris has canonically only ever used They/Them. Nothing else, from all that we've seen. They certainly aren't ambiguous.

 

[MysticMania]

Unfortunately this seems to be private, now?

 

[LukeChaosBlobz]

Do you have any proof that it's a joke?

The fact it’s a twitter account, known for posting memes. The tweet featuring EXE was a joke tweet posted on Friday 13th. This is the same account that made memes about Coldsteel and other Fanmade things. The EXE thing is just a funny joke for the fanbase

 

[Theuser789]

I understand what you mean, but Kris has canonically only ever used They/Them. Nothing else, from all that we've seen. They certainly aren't ambiguous.

Blame Toby for approving every official material calling it ambiguous.

 

[MysticMania]

None of these are Kris Deltarune, though. And, all of these are about translating UNDERTALE from English to Japanese, not really about writing the game itself, nor about deltarune. So, when it comes to translating an English thing into Japanese, aspects of gender presentation will be considered as well to account for the words and terms that do and don't exist across the two languages. Additionally, not to say you claimed this, but, Toby did not write this book. This book is, "Legends of Localization book 3: UNDERTALE", written by Clyde "Tomato" Mandelin. Although Toby did approve of this, I don't feel "they/them" was used to "keep gender ambiguous", in this case. Those are just their pronouns.

 

[MysticMania]

Joker isn't voiced either it seems.

 

[Theuser789]

None of these are Kris Deltarune, though. And, all of these are about translating UNDERTALE from English to Japanese, not really about writing the game itself, nor about deltarune. So, when it comes to translating an English thing into Japanese, aspects of gender presentation will be considered as well to account for the words and terms that do and don't exist across the two languages. Additionally, not to say you claimed this, but, Toby did not write this book. This book is, "Legends of Localization book 3: UNDERTALE", written by Clyde "Tomato" Mandelin. Although Toby did approve of this, I don't feel "they/them" was used to "keep gender ambiguous", in this case. Those are just their pronouns.

Monster Kid isn't a self-insert like Kris and the book clearly states Toby designed the character to not have a gender. If Toby wanted it to not be ambiguous, he should stop approving official books that claim even non self-inserts are ambiguous and stop skipping interviews about it. It’s that simple.

 

[RedReaper616]

I’d agree with you…if the whole point of Delatrune wasn’t specifically the exploration of the Self-Insert concept. You boot up the game being lead to believe you’re gonna RPG it up and the game then batters into your face how the concept of a Self-Insert ******* blows because you rob the autonomy of another human being against their will. They are a person. They exist. You are the Player, The Soul, and attempting to enforce conventions we’re used to in other games on Kris and watching how that entirely wrecks them is literally is the point. Kris is a They for the explicit purpose of setting up that contradiction.

Similar to how Undertale criticized replaying games to trying different paths and killing ‘NPCs’ to grow by making the very game unfun and irritating to play, punishing you for engaging with it like an actual video game, Deltarune’s appeal is the metanarrative of Player and Character.

Tangent, at this point I’m just waiting for Under-Rune, the Toby Fox critique on exploring locations. (After all, thinking logically, you’re defiling ancient locales, private property, public property, etc. when you break items to find loot, and when you go around looking through areas, you’re breaking and entering, infringing on privacy, etc.)

 

[Theuser789]

if the whole point of Delatrune wasn’t specifically the exploration of the Self-Insert concept

If you actually read my post and the pictures I sent, you would see that being or not being a self-insert barely matters when official material approved by Toby himself called NPCs like Monster Kid and Napstablook to explicitly designed to have no gender or an unstated/unclear one. Being a self-insert has nothing to do with parts of your character to be ambiguous, after-all, that's the entire reason Kris never talks, for example.

Anyways, this is getting off-topic now. Sonic the Hedgehog.

 

[Omegabronic]

I understand what you mean, but Kris has canonically only ever used They/Them. Nothing else, from all that we've seen. They certainly aren't ambiguous.

They/Them are also used when the gender is non specific, or when it isn't to be revealed... it is a gender NEUTRAL term, aka, applies to all genders, so that as ambiguous as it gets

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

This is the character we're talking about btw

 

[ArthurBeyy]

The fact it’s a twitter account, known for posting memes. The tweet featuring EXE was a joke tweet posted on Friday 13th. This is the same account that made memes about Coldsteel and other Fanmade things. The EXE thing is just a funny joke for the fanbase

İt's a special Friday the 13th Halloween post, and this special post for this day raises the canon stakes by showing Sonic exe. Also, this page is not about memes.

 

[LukeChaosBlobz]

İt's a special Friday the 13th Halloween post, and this special post for this day raises the canon stakes by showing Sonic exe. Also, this page is not about memes.

Yes this page does post memes and the “special post” shows Big recoloured to be black in references to unlucky black cats. it also shows Sonic.exe getting one shotted by an Eggman Monitor. This is a meme post that shouldn’t be taken seriously. If you take this seriously, then you’d believe Coldsteel and other memes are canon.

Besides this, he is featless even if taken the tweets seriously

 

[Omegabronic]

This is the character we're talking about btw

Well... this sign't isn't about Kris specifically... so

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

Anyways, this is getting off-topic now. Sonic the Hedgehog.

Shadow the Hedgehog.