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Attack on Titan - Canon Adjustment and Clarifications

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WeeklyBattles

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Originally discussed here.

So, I swear I remember this being discussed years and years ago bu I guess it was never officially applied, so better late than never I guess. With the completion of the Attack on Titan anime, it should be noted that the anime version of the story is considered the defacto primary canon:

You have been involved in the anime production for a little while, supervising the adaptation’s storyboards, and have been known for asking for changes to the story in the adaptation. Did you personally ask for anything for the final episode?

Yes. Absolutely. I checked the script, but the main thing was the storyboards. There were different things I suggested. When it comes down to it, it’s really the role of the production to make those decisions. But I wanted to at least give my input so that they could take those into account when they were making the final decisions.


  • The anime is the exact adaptation of the story in Isayama's eyes
tumblr_o0ye2wuf101rap29fo1_1280.jpg


Translated here

"It is actually a fortunate event that the series was made into an anime. I was really happy because I had the chance to amend any parts I held regrets for. Additionally, the anime quality was excellent - if the full score is 100, I would say that the animated version's score is 120. I also think it is alright to consider the anime version as the exact adaptation of the manga."

–People are divided there: There are the people who manage to identify with Shinji and immerse themselves in the show, and the people who are turned off by him. Eren is a protagonist who actually develops, and a breath of fresh air in that sense. In creating his character, were you reacting against sekai-kei stories (i.e. stories in which relationship problems revolving around the protagonist turn out to bear directly upon the fate of the world)?

Isayama: Hard to say. In terms of making him a strong or weak character, I originally planned to make him weak, but I had no idea what he would be like on the inside. He’s a character I created because the story called for someone like him.

–A medium through which to explain the universe you’d made.

Isayama: You could say that. Eren is a character who I figured out as I went along. When the manga got adapted into an anime and I got to hear Eren’s voice, that helped me flesh him out, too. I mean, these Titans show up all of a sudden, and he’s not only unafraid, but decides to go kill them? That’s just not a realistic character. But then while he may say those things, you can hear a weakness in his voice actor’s voice, which makes it sound like he’s bluffing. I’ve started to like Eren as a character more and more ever since.

–Interesting — so the character came into focus for you from watching the anime adaptation?

Isayama: It did. Tetsuro Araki, the director, and Yuki Kaji, Eren’s voice actor, had a good approach to him. The anime’s impact on the manga is by no means small.


As such, the anime should be considered the primary canon, having been tweaked by the creator of the story itself to be an improvement on things he felt he did poorly in the manga's story.
 
I agree.

What about the novels and other mangas like Before the Fall, No Regrets, Garrison Girl, etc?
oop sorry, meant to put that in the OP

No Regrets is canon, parts of it were even directly shown in the manga and anime

Before The Fall is canon with just some minor consistency hiccups due to it being written early into the story's development, but it has crucial lore regarding the development of the ODM Gear

Lost Girls is canon, it takes place between some of the timeskips in the story

The Harsh Mistress of the City can be considered since there isn't anything that contradicts the main story

Garrison Girl is the only one that is explicitly non-canon
 
Isn't this just an appeal to authority.
 
Isn't this just an appeal to authority.
Its not just that he supports the idea of it being the primary canon, its that he actively changed parts of the anime that he felt he did poorly in the manga, on top of overseeing the anime's production and personally changed the script and storyboard to better reflect how he wanted the story to be.

In essence the anime is the finalized version of the story.
 
Its not just that he supports the idea of it being the primary canon, its that he actively changed parts of the anime that he felt he did poorly in the manga, on top of overseeing the anime's production and personally changed the script and storyboard to better reflect how he wanted the story to be.

In essence the anime is the finalized version of the story.
Eh, not really, an appeal to authority would take charge in that scenario as he's changing previously established work, and changing it by quite a bit iirc.
 
Eh, not really, an appeal to authority would take charge in that scenario as he's changing previously established work, and changing it by quite a bit iirc.
A creator retroactively making changes to their work through an alternate medium isnt allowed? Dont we allow stuff like this for...basically every verse? This is genuinely the first ive heard of this argument being made here.
 
A creator retroactively making changes to their work through an alternate medium isnt allowed? Dont we allow stuff like this for...basically every verse? This is genuinely the first ive heard of this argument being made here.
Well, if it's allowed I think it's flawed. The problem is that you're relying on an authors opinion to change previously well established work in the future which is a fallacy as you can't just listen to an authorities opinion, even if it's the author as the work is established.
 
Well, if it's allowed I think it's flawed. The problem is that you're relying on an authors opinion to change previously well established work in the future which is a fallacy as you can't just listen to an authorities opinion, even if it's the author as the work is established.
Would this not invalidate the existence of things like retcons and retroactive prequels? Or even WoG and guidebooks?
 
Would this not invalidate the existence of things like retcons and retroactive prequels? Or even WoG and guidebooks?
I mean if it's a small change to the initial material then no. But if it changes the material drastically then it's an obvious fallacy.
 
I personally don't see how this appeals to authority when it's just the author retconning and making fixes on the story. Also, the changes are not drastic, and the story mostly stays the same, just with minor edits.
 
I feel like it could be good to add the fact Yuugore no Tori ED depicts events that hadn't happened in the manga yet as supporting evidence

Yuugure no Tori came out May 24, 2017
Chapter 122, when Maria, Rose, and Shina eat Ymir's body, came out in October 9th, 2019

off topic but this is such a peak ending
 
Kinda is...
Its not. The Appeal to authority fallacy dictates that a argument made "because someone of perceived authority said that it is true" might be invalid or weak because the authority behind it is uncertain. I.e Taking prolonged sick leave because your doctor said you had cancer. Your boss does not get to say appeal to authority, unless he can prove that your doctor is wrong or that he is not in fact a doctor. Your boss can claim authority if its the American President that diagnosed you though, because the Presidents authority does not extend to the medical field.

Isayamas authority as the intellectual rightsholder is unshakeable. It would be a different topic if some producer who worked on the anime claimed the anime to be the main canon. THAT would be appeal to authority.
 
Its not. The Appeal to authority fallacy dictates that a argument made "because someone of perceived authority said that it is true" might be invalid or weak because the authority behind it is uncertain. I.e Taking prolonged sick leave because your doctor said you had cancer. Your boss does not get to say appeal to authority, unless he can prove that your doctor is wrong or that he is not in fact a doctor. Your boss can claim authority if its the American President that diagnosed you though, because the Presidents authority does not extend to the medical field.

Isayamas authority as the intellectual rightsholder is unshakeable. It would be a different topic if some producer who worked on the anime claimed the anime to be the main canon. THAT would be appeal to authority.
Eh that's not how it works.

A scientist who studies physics, can make a claim on something physics related, but to take that claim as certain you'd be appealing to authority, if they have no proof that is but thats a different case. It still translates here.

An author who wrote a book, makes a claim that changes the scaling after he's published the book. The primary cannon is not the author, it's the book, you can't change things based on what the author says after publishing. Because it's no longer cannon.

Timeline:

Makes a manga.

Finishes a manga.

Manga gets an anime.

Makes changes from the manga into the anime.

Calls it official because he wrote the book.

Fundamentally an appeal to authority.
 
Eh that's not how it works.

A scientist who studies physics, can make a claim on something physics related, but to take that claim as certain you'd be appealing to authority, if they have no proof that is but thats a different case. It still translates here.

An author who wrote a book, makes a claim that changes the scaling after he's published the book. The primary cannon is not the author, it's the book, you can't change things based on what the author says after publishing. Because it's no longer cannon.

Timeline:

Makes a manga.

Finishes a manga.

Manga gets an anime.

Makes changes from the manga into the anime.

Calls it official because he wrote the book.

Fundamentally an appeal to authority.

Thats... not the timeline though. The anime started halfway through the manga's story. Isayama even directly stated that seeing the anime gave him ideas for how to better flesh out some of the characters in the manga, especially post-timeskip.
 
Thats... not the timeline though. The anime started halfway through the manga's story. Isayama even directly stated that seeing the anime gave him ideas for how to better flesh out some of the characters in the manga, especially post-timeskip.
That wouldn't be a appeal to authority cause he was still writing the manga. However, let me know if I'm wrong. He changed the anime from the manga to make scaling different. Which happened after the manga was complete?
 
Eh that's not how it works.

A scientist who studies physics, can make a claim on something physics related, but to take that claim as certain you'd be appealing to authority, if they have no proof that is but thats a different case. It still translates here.
It is not AppToAuth to cite a astrophysicist on the topics of astrology. The argument can be independently wrong, but if not disproven or challenged by a equal or higher authority on the topic, it would be fallacious to dismiss the argument on no basis.
An author who wrote a book, makes a claim that changes the scaling after he's published the book. The primary cannon is not the author, it's the book, you can't change things based on what the author says after publishing. Because it's no longer cannon.

Timeline:

Makes a manga.

Finishes a manga.

Manga gets an anime.

Makes changes from the manga into the anime.

Calls it official because he wrote the book.

Fundamentally an appeal to authority.
The work itself does not decide what is canon or what isnt. You can LITERALLY argue official prequels and sequels away with this line of thought. Star Wars 2? Not canon, its not Star Wars 1. Canoncity is not something Isayama can be right or wrong on, because he, as the rightsholder on the franchise, gets to decide what is or what isnt canon. You can disagree with his will, death of the author is a concept, but you or any of us gets to decide that.
 
It is not AppToAuth to cite a astrophysicist on the topics of astrology. The argument can be independently wrong, but if not disproven or challenged by a equal or higher authority on the topic, it would be fallacious to dismiss the argument on no basis.
I'm not dismissing it, but you also cannot accept an argument on the basis of "it's not disproven, therefore we can use it". That's flawed.

The work itself does not decide what is canon or what isnt. You can LITERALLY argue official prequels and sequels away with this line of thought. Star Wars 2? Not canon, its not Star Wars 1. Canoncity is not something Isayama can be right or wrong on, because he, as the rightsholder on the franchise, gets to decide what is or what isnt canon. You can disagree with his will, death of the author is a concept, but you or any of us gets to decide that.
Unfortunately you can't as it's fallacious. Just because he made it doesn't mean he can change things much after the fact that contradict the original story.
 
That wouldn't be a appeal to authority cause he was still writing the manga. However, let me know if I'm wrong. He changed the anime from the manga to make scaling different. Which happened after the manga was complete?
He was still writing the manga as the anime was in production, I even linked an interview in the OP where he discussed the anime's influence on the manga. Basically once he saw how they characters were portrayed in the anime, their mannerisms and actions actively brought to life, he started making changes in the manga to bring them in line with how they were portrayed in the anime, on top of adjusting the script and story of the first few seasons of the anime to rewrite some of the things he felt he did poorly in the manga. This continued through the anime, with him making adjustments to the story and characters to improve on things he didnt do the wylay he wanted them to be done originally, including making small adjustments to the ending which he felt was deeply unsatisfactory in the manga.

In his eyes, the anime is the exact adaptation of the story.
 
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I'm not dismissing it, but you also cannot accept an argument on the basis of "it's not disproven, therefore we can use it". That's flawed.
Unless you have a reason other than appeal to authority, he can. Hajime Isayama is the author. If he says that new, updated story is canon, then its canon. Unless, you want to go with the Death of Author Route.
Unfortunately you can't as it's fallacious. Just because he made it doesn't mean he can change things much after the fact that contradict the original story.
He absolutely can. Its called retconning.
 
I'm not dismissing it, but you also cannot accept an argument on the basis of "it's not disproven, therefore we can use it". That's flawed.
"it's not disproven, therefore we can use it" is literally not what I claimed though. AppToAuth prevents arguments from authoritys to be automatically correct and thus unchallengeable. As in, if authority A claims such and such then its objectivly correct and thus you cang argue against it. If I cite a biologist on a biology topic then that is a argument you have to disprove as wrong. It is not a get out of jail card for you to dismiss the argument.
Unfortunately you can't as it's fallacious. Just because he made it doesn't mean he can change things much after the fact that contradict the original story.
He can. Its called rewriting the manga and then printing it again. Or in cases of webnovels just rewriting pages. An author deciding what is or what isnt canon is not an AppToAuth.
 
Even moreso when he was literally changing the characters in the manga as it was being written as a result of the influence the anime portrayals had on his perception of it. It would be one thing if he finished the manga completely and then went back and changed stuff in the anime but he was actively writing the manga to be more in line with the anime.
 
Eh that's not how it works.

A scientist who studies physics, can make a claim on something physics related, but to take that claim as certain you'd be appealing to authority, if they have no proof that is but thats a different case. It still translates here.

An author who wrote a book, makes a claim that changes the scaling after he's published the book. The primary cannon is not the author, it's the book, you can't change things based on what the author says after publishing. Because it's no longer cannon.

Timeline:

Makes a manga.

Finishes a manga.

Manga gets an anime.

Makes changes from the manga into the anime.

Calls it official because he wrote the book.

Fundamentally an appeal to authority.
Bro no offense but he MADE the MANGA and HELPED with the ANIME and even said it is more ALIGNED with his VISION.


This is NOT an appeal to authority. By your logic, authors can't comment or make changes on their own stories ig. Retcons and additions are invalid now according to you


"Appeal to authority fallacy refers to the use of an expert’s opinion to back up an argument. Instead of justifying one’s claim, a person cites an authority figure who is not qualified to make reliable claims about the topic at hand."


"Some consider it a practical and sound way of obtaining knowledge that is generally likely to be correct when the authority is real, pertinent, and universally accepted"

If the CREATOR of the manga is not considered a QUALIFIED and REAL source, then I don't know what is.
 
Who do I respond to. Not gonna respond to everyone, that would derail.
 
I think there's been a confusion as to what appeal to authority entails here.

Word of God is perfectly acceptable by our rules so long as it does not go against the primary canon and as long as it's not a loaded leading question made in a battle-boarding-esque fashion. As such, this thread is perfectly A-OK to hold.
 
Eh that's not how it works.

A scientist who studies physics, can make a claim on something physics related, but to take that claim as certain you'd be appealing to authority, if they have no proof that is but thats a different case. It still translates here.

An author who wrote a book, makes a claim that changes the scaling after he's published the book. The primary cannon is not the author, it's the book, you can't change things based on what the author says after publishing. Because it's no longer cannon.
Physics is a field of discovery, aka science. Nothing a scientist says will ever technically be factual, just an educated conclusion based on countless trial and error off a claim, and if it hasn't been disproven yet, then it's treated as "fact."

An author of a story isn't discovering anything; the story is theirs, and everything they say and add to the story is factual inherently.

If you were talking about an Illustrator or an Assistant, you would have a point. Not the one who makes the rules of the story.
 
Physics is a field of discovery, aka science. Nothing a scientist says will ever technically be factual, just an educated conclusion based on countless trial and error off a claim, and if it hasn't been disproven yet, then it's treated as "fact."

An author of a story isn't discovering anything; the story is theirs, and everything they say and add to the story is factual inherently.

If you were talking about an Illustrator or an Assistant, you would have a point. Not the one who makes the rules of the story.
Nah man. Just because Isayama is the sole creator of this verse doesn't mean he know anything ong.
 
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