Itachi vs Sauron

[Osemere]

Both 7-A
SBA
Equal Speed

Itachi:
Sauron:
Inconclusive:

 

[karo_senpaii]

Both 7-A
SBA
Equal Speed

Itachi:
Sauron:
Inconclusive:

Does sauron have the ridiculous abilities I'm seeing in his 7A key?

 

[FireSwordHero]

This is the wierdest matchup I've seen so far tbh.

Anyways, Sauron wins this. Like seriously, there's nothing Itachi can really do to him.

First of all, Sauron AP stomps this. Itatchi AP puts him at 139.2 megatons while Sauron's scalings up him at anywhere between 636 megatons and 1.6 gigatons. Minimum. Of course, even if we scaled Itatchi much higer due to having his Sharingan and Susanoo, AP was never going to be the biggest factor here anyways.

No, that would be their powers and abilities. And Itachi has nothing that can really hurt Sauron.

In terms of physicality, Sauron is invulnerable due to his Maia power and scaling from Gandalf. Even if you wanted to argue that her isn't truly invulnerable, Sauron doesn't need a body to actually fight. If he gets injured, he can just become a spirit or make new bodies as needed.

So that would mean that Itachi would have to damage Sauron's spirit.

But he can't, due to the fact that his verse literally prevents his soul from being destroyed. On the topic of verse wide resistances, Sauron can resist anything Itachi can do with his Sharingan or similar abilities due to have in-universe mind resistance alongside the mind resistance granted by his Maia powers

The only one real weakness Sauron has is the One Ring which would either depower Sauron if taken or effectively destroy him if its destroyed., but that would require Itachi to be able to obtain it first, which would in turn require Itachi to overpower or subdue Sauron. So fat chance of that happening.

And even if Itachi could get the ring? First of all, he would be compelled not to destroy it due to its corrupting effect, given that it can corrupt everyone in its setting, even Gandalf who is also a Maia with similar will and power to Sauron. Secondly, he likley could not destroy the ring to begin with given its magical properties. Lastly it wouldn't really end the fight. All it would end up with is Sauron basically being forced into an incoporeal form that Itatchi can't really attack, all the while Itachi is being corrupted by a ring that would just compell him to get himself killed in a really bad way so that Sauron can get his ring back.

This is the biggest stomp I've seen and its not even funny.

 

[karo_senpaii]

This is the wierdest matchup I've seen so far tbh.

Anyways, Sauron wins this. Like seriously, there's nothing Itachi can really do to him.

First of all, Sauron AP stomps this. Itatchi AP puts him at 139.2 megatons while Sauron's scalings up him at anywhere between 636 megatons and 1.6 gigatons. Minimum. Of course, even if we scaled Itatchi much higer due to having his Sharingan and Susanoo, AP was never going to be the biggest factor here anyways.

No, that would be their powers and abilities. And Itachi has nothing that can really hurt Sauron.

In terms of physicality, Sauron is invulnerable due to his Maia power and scaling from Gandalf. Even if you wanted to argue that her isn't truly invulnerable, Sauron doesn't need a body to actually fight. If he gets injured, he can just become a spirit or make new bodies as needed.

So that would mean that Itachi would have to damage Sauron's spirit.

But he can't, due to the fact that his verse literally prevents his soul from being destroyed. On the topic of verse wide resistances, Sauron can resist anything Itachi can do with his Sharingan or similar abilities due to have in-universe mind resistance alongside the mind resistance granted by his Maia powers

The only one real weakness Sauron has is the One Ring which would either depower Sauron if taken or effectively destroy him if its destroyed., but that would require Itachi to be able to obtain it first, which would in turn require Itachi to overpower or subdue Sauron. So fat chance of that happening.

And even if Itachi could get the ring? First of all, he would be compelled not to destroy it due to its corrupting effect, given that it can corrupt everyone in its setting, even Gandalf who is also a Maia with similar will and power to Sauron. Secondly, he likley could not destroy the ring to begin with given its magical properties. Lastly it wouldn't really end the fight. All it would end up with is Sauron basically being forced into an incoporeal form that Itatchi can't really attack, all the while Itachi is being corrupted by a ring that would just compell him to get himself killed in a really bad way so that Sauron can get his ring back.

This is the biggest stomp I've seen and its not even funny.

TBF unless sauron mind resistance is unconventional in some way Itachi can still mind hax him coz of layers but like I want to know if the amount of ridiculous abilities I see in sauron profile are available in his 7A key to make this an absolute stomp

 

[Arkansalter2]

Low Godly regen man what.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Amaterasu aside, does Sauron even have any sort of composite body or nervous system for Sharingan Genjutsu to be effective against? Ainur aren't physical in the same sense that mortals are, to my understanding. They're sort of just... spirit-stuff? Correct me there if I'm wrong.

And even then it looks like Sauron just out-haxes Itachi to hell.

Itachi would make for one hell of a Nazgul lol.

 

[Naito-desu]

Ainur physiology might actually just neg any wincons Itachi has ngl, I'm not learned in LOTR lore though so I could be wrong

 

[karo_senpaii]

Amaterasu aside, does Sauron even have any sort of composite body or nervous system for Sharingan Genjutsu to be effective against? Ainur aren't physical in the same sense that mortals are, to my understanding. They're sort of just... spirit-stuff? Correct me there if I'm wrong.

And even then it looks like Sauron just out-haxes Itachi to hell.

Itachi would make for one hell of a Nazgul lol.

Genjutsu works on souls

 

[FireSwordHero]

TBF unless sauron mind resistance is unconventional in some way Itachi can still mind hax him coz of layers but like I want to know if the amount of ridiculous abilities I see in sauron profile are available in his 7A key to make this an absolute stomp

Genjutsu works on souls

Sauron has two layers of mind manip resistance that would make Itachi's Sharingan difficult to affect him: one being the Barrier of Unwill which is a verse-wide affect which prevents mental manipulation to the extent that even the likes of Frodo can resist the mental manipulations of a Maiar like Sauron (and possibly even the likes of the Ainur), while the other is the one that comes from his innate Maia physiology and powers.

In addition, Sauron also has this resistance courtesy of his Maia powers:

Illusion Creation: Usage of goetic magic that would be considered illusory to humans would be considered mere "artistic" works by Elves and Ainur, with the difference being as clear as fiction and life to their senses.

So yeah, Sauron can resist both the illusory and mental aspects of Itatchi's Sharingan (or in the case of the former, see right through it). I don't think its going to work anytime soon. In any case, this would be one of the only two wincons Itachi really has as nothing can really hurt Sauron physically or spiritually.

Amaterasu aside, does Sauron even have any sort of composite body or nervous system for Sharingan Genjutsu to be effective against? Ainur aren't physical in the same sense that mortals are, to my understanding. They're sort of just... spirit-stuff? Correct me there if I'm wrong.

And even then it looks like Sauron just out-haxes Itachi to hell.

Sauron does have a body, but it can easily be discarded if needed, so while it would work once it probably wouldn't work a second time.
Even then, Sauron could just fight as a spirit, so Itachi couldn't even touch him again if Sauron wanted it so.

Itachi would make for one hell of a Nazgul lol.

.... **** yeah. I can see that too. Sounds like a hell of a crossover.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Sauron has two layers of mind manip resistance that would make Itachi's Sharingan difficult to affect him: one being the Barrier of Unwill which is a verse-wide affect which prevents mental manipulation to the extent that even the likes of Frodo can resist the mental manipulations of a Maiar like Sauron (and possibly even the likes of the Ainur), while the other is the one that comes from his innate Maia physiology and powers.

Well 2 things.

1. Having 2 separate sources of mind manip resistance ≠ having 2 layers of mind manip resistance. (if that's not what you're saying then my bad, but I couldn't find any source for 2 layers on the profiles)
2. Itachis genjutsu currently has 4 layers accepted so even if he did have 2 layers of resistance, they would be completely useless here

(not commenting on the match up or anything, just correcting this specifically)

 

[karo_senpaii]

Sauron has two layers of mind manip resistance that would make Itachi's Sharingan difficult to affect him: one being the Barrier of Unwill which is a verse-wide affect which prevents mental manipulation to the extent that even the likes of Frodo can resist the mental manipulations of a Maiar like Sauron (and possibly even the likes of the Ainur), while the other is the one that comes from his innate Maia physiology and powers.

In addition, Sauron also has this resistance courtesy of his Maia powers:

So yeah, Sauron can resist both the illusory and mental aspects of Itatchi's Sharingan (or in the case of the former, see right through it). I don't think its going to work anytime soon. In any case, this would be one of the only two wincons Itachi really has as nothing can really hurt Sauron physically or spiritually.

Sauron does have a body, but it can easily be discarded if needed, so while it would work once it probably wouldn't work a second time.
Even then, Sauron could just fight as a spirit, so Itachi couldn't even touch him again if Sauron wanted it so.

.... **** yeah. I can see that too. Sounds like a hell of a crossover.

I mean like David said Itachi has 4 layers of mind manipulation. I can't believe I'm saying this but considering Itachi first move is always genjutsu then it looks like he's winning this rn. Unless y'all are just doing an absolute poor job of debating for sauron because the sheer amount of overpowered abilities I saw when I peaked his profile and the blogs of abilities linked in his profile I was afraid for Itachi. I thought it would be an absolute stomp

 

[Robo432343]

unless sauron has some passive op ability he just gets genjutsu'd

 

[DavidTPPM]

I mean like David said Itachi has 4 layers of mind manipulation. I can't believe I'm saying this but considering Itachi first move is always genjutsu then it looks like he's winning this rn. Unless y'all are just doing an absolute poor job of debating for sauron because the sheer amount of overpowered abilities I saw when I peaked his profile and the blogs of abilities linked in his profile I was afraid for Itachi. I thought it would be an absolute stomp

unless sauron has some passive op ability he just gets genjutsu'd

To be fair here, Itachi doesn't immediately open up with Tsukiyomi or other advanced genjustu, but rather with basic illusions. Especially in his part 2 key where he's extremely sick and has to preserve stamina if possible.

So Itachi would probably start off with some minor illusions to keep himself safe (like against Sasuke and Bee), and then quickly realize how big of a threat Sauron is which is when he'll finish things off with Tsukiyomi.

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

To be fair here, Itachi doesn't immediately open up with Tsukiyomi or other advanced genjustu, but rather with basic illusions. Especially in his part 2 key where he's extremely sick and has to preserve stamina if possible.

So Itachi would probably start off with some minor illusions to keep himself safe (like against Sasuke and Bee), and then quickly realize how big of a threat Sauron is which is when he'll finish things off with Tsukiyomi.

The solo king strikes again

 

[Arcker123]

What does AP even matter with the Yata Mirror?

 

[FireSwordHero]

Well 2 things.

1. Having 2 separate sources of mind manip resistance ≠ having 2 layers of mind manip resistance. (if that's not what you're saying then my bad, but I couldn't find any source for 2 layers on the profiles)
2. Itachis genjutsu currently has 4 layers accepted so even if he did have 2 layers of resistance, they would be completely useless here

(not commenting on the match up or anything, just correcting this specifically)

First of all, where exactly are these 4 layers of genjutsu? I genuinely fail to see this on his profile aside from having access to a variety of genjutsu. I find it difficult to believe that the Sharingan has 4 layers of mental manip.

Secondly, the Barrier of Unwill is not just some a basic layer of mental protection that protects against mind control. It's an absolute power that is the result of Eru giving all living free will through the Flame Imperishable, a power that exists within all beings within a soul and prevents even the likes of the Ainur (who are basically the closest thing to gods outside of Eru himself) from mind controlling even the likes of normal ordinary humans. You cannot forcibly control anyone within the world of the Lord of the Rings: you can coerce/threaten/convince others to join or aid you, but you cannot control them outright even with all the magic power that you could have. Its why Sauron was so feared in the world of the LOtR: he was a master manipulator who could convince others to join his side and turn even the most righteous souls into darkness with just his words alone.

The reason I say this is that Sauron himself has this power, on top of the powers and resistances of a Greater Maia. All Ainur, from the Valar to the lowest of Maiar, can resist mental manipulations and mental attacks through their own divine power, and said power also allows them to discern illusions from reality as easy as telling apart art from real life. I genuinely fail to see how the Sharingan would be able to affect Sauron at all when he already resists everything the Sharingan can do.

TLDR: God gave all living things mind condoms in LOtR and told them to practice consent. Itachi fails to mind r*pe Sauron because Sauron wears protection.

Thirdly, even if the Sharingan COULD affect Sauron, I fail to see how Itachi can win with just the Sharingan/Genjutsus alone. It doesn't make Sauron any easier to kill, and I doubt that it could affect Sauron long enough for Itachi to win via incap when his powers would logically enable him to break out of it.

Lastly, the sharingan is not absolute. It has it own weakness (such as requiring eye contact with a target and requiring line of sight to use), so Sauron could easily escape its affects with any of the following.

• Shroud the the location in his shadow (preventing Itachi from seeing Sauron)
• Shapeshifting into a form that has no visible eyes (or just fight as incoporeal spirit with no body/brain for Itatchi to affect)
• Just attack Itachi's eyes (no eyes, no Sharingan)

All of this stuff does seem like it requires Sauron to actually know about the Sharingan, but it really doesn't. Sauron is an immortal genius with thousands of years of experience in manipulating and controlling others, to the point where he could be considered one of the smartest beings in Ea in this regard. While the Sharingan is a bit out there compared to the world of LOtR, Sauron himself is no stranger when it comes to powers that create illusions and manipulate others.

Again, I genuinly fail to see how Itachi can win with just his Sharingan or his Genjutsus. Sauron's powers should outright make him immune to Itachi's Sharingan, or at minimum allow him to break out of it before he loses via incap. It doesn't change the fact that Sauron is outright immune to everything else Itachi can use against him, so Itachi wouldn't be able to capitalise on it in any meaningful way before Sauron breaks out of the illusions. And its very unlikely that Itachi would be able to do it again given Sauron's incredible experience and his own knowledge allowing him to exploit the weakness of the Sharingan and counter it.

 

[DavidTPPM]

First of all, where exactly are these 4 layers of genjutsu? I genuinely fail to see this on his profile aside from having access to a variety of genjutsu.

The accepted genjutsu blog is on the verse page

Naruto: Genjutsu Potency

vsbattles.fandom.com

I find it difficult to believe that the Sharingan has 4 layers of mental manip.

That's surprising ngl, I'd expect about as much it's probably going to be even more eventually

Secondly, the Barrier of Unwill is not just some a basic layer of mental protection that protects against mind control. It's an absolute power that is the result of Eru giving all living free will through the Flame Imperishable, a power that exists within all beings within a soul and prevents even the likes of the Ainur (who are basically the closest thing to gods outside of Eru himself) from mind controlling even the likes of normal ordinary humans. You cannot forcibly control anyone within the world of the Lord of the Rings: you can coerce/threaten/convince others to join or aid you, but you cannot control them outright even with all the magic power that you could have. Its why Sauron was so feared in the world of the LOtR: he was a master manipulator who could convince others to join his side and turn even the most righteous souls into darkness with just his words alone.

The reason I say this is that Sauron himself has this power, on top of the powers and resistances of a Greater Maia. All Ainur, from the Valar to the lowest of Maiar, can resist mental manipulations and mental attacks through their own divine power, and said power also allows them to discern illusions from reality as easy as telling apart art from real life. I genuinely fail to see how the Sharingan would be able to affect Sauron at all when he already resists everything the Sharingan can do.

TLDR: God gave all living things mind condoms in LOtR and told them to practice consent. Itachi fails to mind r*pe Sauron because Sauron wears protection.

Uhh no lol? All you described was baseline (maybe 1 layer if I'm reading correctly) mind manip resistance. Unless his resistance is unconventional (in a way such as his mind being type 2 information for example), it doesn't really matter how grandiose you make it sound - it's still inferior to Itachis mind manip potency.

Thirdly, even if the Sharingan COULD affect Sauron, I fail to see how Itachi can win with just the Sharingan/Genjutsus alone. It doesn't make Sauron any easier to kill, and I doubt that it could affect Sauron long enough for Itachi to win via incap when his powers would logically enable him to break out of it.

Itachi could just make Sauron kill himself if all else fails.

Lastly, the sharingan is not absolute. It has it own weakness (such as requiring eye contact with a target and requiring line of sight to use), so Sauron could easily escape its affects with any of the following.

• Shroud the the location in his shadow (preventing Itachi from seeing Sauron)
• Shapeshifting into a form that has no visible eyes (or just fight as incoporeal spirit with no body/brain for Itatchi to affect)
• Just attack Itachi's eyes (no eyes, no Sharingan)

All of this stuff does seem like it requires Sauron to actually know about the Sharingan, but it really doesn't. Sauron is an immortal genius with thousands of years of experience in manipulating and controlling others, to the point where he could be considered one of the smartest beings in Ea in this regard. While the Sharingan is a bit out there compared to the world of LOtR, Sauron himself is no stranger when it comes to powers that create illusions and manipulate others.

Itachi is a genius who could make even other geniuses like Sasuke who has his own sharingan with a deep understanding of its mechanics unaware that he's under genjutsu. And eye contact is EXTREMELY easy to achieve if you don't have prior knowledge to begin with, so him preemptively protecting his eyes is just not going to happen.

Again, I genuinly fail to see how Itachi can win with just his Sharingan or his Genjutsus. Sauron's powers should outright make him immune to Itachi's Sharingan, or at minimum allow him to break out of it before he loses via incap

What suggests Sauron would be capable of breaking out? Itachis basic non sharingan genjutsu was already enough to work on someone who has specifically trained to notice and counter it.

And its very unlikely that Itachi would be able to do it again given Sauron's incredible experience and his own knowledge allowing him to exploit the weakness of the Sharingan and counter it.

It's also completely unnecessary for Itachi to catch him in genjutsu twice. Plus worst case scenario there's always izanami which doesn't require eye contact and can incap you indefinitely without Itachi even being alive so if Itachi realizes he can't capitalize on regular genjutsu, he can still use it to set up izanami and just chill

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

That's surprising ngl, I'd expect about as much it's probably going to be even more eventually

It’s gonna be beyond any magnitude of infinite amount of layers when I am done. Trust

 

[Osemere]

Uhh no lol? All you described was baseline (maybe 1 layer if I'm reading correctly) mind manip resistance. Unless his resistance is unconventional (in a way such as his mind being type 2 information for example), it doesn't really matter how grandiose you make it sound - it's still inferior to Itachis mind manip potency.

It doesn’t matter since the one in Sauron’s setting giving all beings with free will freedom from mind manipulation is tier 0 (lol). I lowkey didn’t even notice that when I made this matchup.

 

[DavidTPPM]

It doesn’t matter since the one in Sauron’s setting giving all beings with free will freedom from mind manipulation is tier 0 (lol). I lowkey didn’t even notice that when I made this matchup.

If it's a tier 0 smurf resistance then it would actually be immunity, not resistance.

It not being considered an immunity but a resistance leads me to believe it's not one and so genjutsu works.

 

[Huesito88]

If it's a tier 0 smurf resistance then it would actually be immunity, not resistance.

It not being considered an immunity but a resistance leads me to believe it's not one and so genjutsu works.

I don't think we have actual rules on giving tier 0 resistances more unique wording

 

[DavidTPPM]

I don't think we have actual rules on giving tier 0 resistances more unique wording

We have rules about immunity and resistance being 2 fundamentally different things.

A tier 0 resistance can't exist because a resistance is inherently possible to bypass while a tier 0 "resistance" being bypassed would always be a defeating anti-feat for tier 0.

It could of course just be an error or wording choice of the profile but based on its current state nothing there is linking that resistance to be tier 0 which is a pretty MASSIVE claim, so I think it's something that definitely needs to be noted in there.

 

[Huesito88]

A tier 0 resistance can't exist because a resistance is inherently possible to bypass while a tier 0 "resistance" being bypassed would always be a defeating anti-feat for tier 0.

Yes I'm aware on the logic on why it would be "actual true immunity"

 

[Osemere]

If it's a tier 0 smurf resistance then it would actually be immunity, not resistance.

It not being considered an immunity but a resistance leads me to believe it's not one and so genjutsu works.

Separately, I’m not sure a “tier 0 smurf resistance” would itself be coherent, which is why I said it would be sourced from a tier 0 as opposed to itself requiring tier 0 potency to challenge (the tiering system is very nebulous in this area, due to equivocating in areas like H1-A+ being sometimes defined as “all a tier 0 can affect”, etc.)

But given that immunity is seemingly only accepted under the logic that there would be nothing to manipulate in the first place (due to someone “lacking a mind”), someone having a mind impossibly manipulated outside of their will does not preclude a mind manipulated within their will (as it seems the barrier of unwill can be “closed” or “opened”), so I don’t think immunity would be applicable even there.

 

[FireSwordHero]

The accepted genjutsu blog is on the verse page

Naruto: Genjutsu Potency

vsbattles.fandom.com

I read it and I am happy to say its full of shit.

There's no actual layers to the sharingan, it simply just means that the power of a sharingan increases the more it has been "evolved". It's essentially power scaling but with mind control. But yeah, that somehow means that the Sharingan can overpower mind resistance given by capital G O D himself.

That's surprising ngl, I'd expect about as much it's probably going to be even more eventually

God I hope not.

Uhh no lol? All you described was baseline (maybe 1 layer if I'm reading correctly) mind manip resistance. Unless his resistance is unconventional (in a way such as his mind being type 2 information for example), it doesn't really matter how grandiose you make it sound - it's still inferior to Itachis mind manip potency.

It's not just simply 1 simple layer of mind resistance. It's literally the divine concept of free will, created by god himself to allow the living of middle earth to make their own choices.

If the mind manipulation was that simple, then Sauron as a character literally would not work in his series. The whole thing in his story is that he CAN'T control others, even though his Maiar powers should allow him to, so he has to rely on indirect means to control others. He can only control other beings through very specific circumstances that must ALWAYS rely on his victims allowing him to do so WILLINGLY. Even the Valar, who's powers far eclipse that of the Maiar, cannot control the minds of even normal humans, much less a Maiar.

Enhanced Mind Manipulation: The Valar were considered the "greater minds" compared to all but Eru.[45] They could peer into disembodied minds with ease, with them being completely open to their view.[39] With sufficient coercion, they can even bypass the "barrier of unwill" should a target's will be sufficiently weakened beforehand.[46][Note 6] Their mastery of the mind is so supreme that language is not "imperative" to their uses, with the Valar holding the highest "authority" in matters of the mind.[9]

Note 6: Albeit this is not achievable through brute force alone. While the minds of the Valar were "stronger" than lesser Ainur, bypassing the barrier of unwill without weakening of an individual's will is impossible. Tolkien states that the Children of Ilúvatar (Elves and Humans) had to be dominated for this to succeed. Domination, "force", "fear", "pain", "awe", "reverence", "wisdom", and "majesty" are examples provided by Tolkien. The only known example of a Vala/Greater Maia who bypassed the barrier through these means is Morgoth, who did so by tricking individuals to believe him to be God while dominating their will. Indeed, overcoming an Únat without loopholes is not possible unless you are Eru, aka the creator of the Únati.

The fact that Eru himself cannot rescind the very concept he created means that the Barrier of Unwill is not just some layer. It's a fundamental concept that makes up the reality of LOtR.

The only way Itachi could every have his powers truly affect Sauron would be to dominate his will. And that is not happening in the slightest.

Itachi could just make Sauron kill himself if all else fails.

F*cking how? Sauron is an immortal being, he literally cannot die. Itachi couldn't even order him to destroy his ring: the rings corruption is so powerful that Itachi couldn't even order Sauron to do so much less Sauron being willing to destroy the ring on Itachi's orders.

Itachi is a genius who could make even other geniuses like Sasuke who has his own sharingan with a deep understanding of its mechanics unaware that he's under genjutsu. And eye contact is EXTREMELY easy to achieve if you don't have prior knowledge to begin with, so him preemptively protecting his eyes is just not going to happen.

Damn we are really wanking Itachi today huh?

Whatever, Itachi is a genius ninja, but Sauron is a genius in a lot more things and to a greater degree than Itachi, so its not really saying much.

What suggests Sauron would be capable of breaking out? Itachis basic non sharingan genjutsu was already enough to work on someone who has specifically trained to notice and counter it.

Oh I don't know, the fact that Sauron:

• Is a Maiar, basically a divine being that no mortal could hope to match and even made the other Maiar cower against him.
• The fact that Sauron many times more experienced when it comes to making illusions and controling minds?
  • He practically has the same powers as Itachi, how could he not know illusions when he see's one.
• His Maiar powers practically makes illusions useless against him due to his divine nature.

Mind Manip is literally Itachi's only wincon yet you are saying it decides the whole fight. As if Sauron can't just burn him to death or kill him in a bunch of other ways.

It's also completely unnecessary for Itachi to catch him in genjutsu twice. Plus worst case scenario there's always izanami which doesn't require eye contact and can incap you indefinitely without Itachi even being alive so if Itachi realizes he can't capitalize on regular genjutsu, he can still use it to set up izanami and just chill

I've already went over this in my point about the Barrier of Unwill. At this point you are just wanking Itachi's mind manip to be stronger than gods.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Separately, I’m not sure a “tier 0 smurf resistance” would itself be coherent, which is why I said it would be sourced from a tier 0 as opposed to itself requiring tier 0 potency to challenge (the tiering system is very nebulous in this area, due to equivocating in areas like H1-A+ being sometimes defined as “all a tier 0 can affect”, etc.)

Regardless of formatting, there should definitely be something marking it's potency. I often see characters have dimensionality marked on the resistance section so I don't think this would be any different

But given that immunity is seemingly only accepted under the logic that there would be nothing to manipulate in the first place (due to someone “lacking a mind”), someone having a mind impossibly manipulated outside of their will does not preclude a mind manipulated within their will (as it seems the barrier of unwill can be “closed” or “opened”), so I don’t think immunity would be applicable even there.

Well they lack the possibility of having their mind manipulated entirely so semantically, you could say it fits that description. If anything the immunity should be even superior to a standard one since hypothetically a regular immunity wouldn't protect you from having a mind imposed on you and then it being controlled (take, the ten tails fragments gaining mind and then being genjutsued) but a tier 0 resistance like this would be completely utterly impossible to get through, otherwise the character wouldn't be tier 0.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I read it and I am happy to say its full of shit.

Well that's a bit rude. If you don't like it feel free to make a CRT to have it removed but otherwise there's no reason to insult it.

There's no actual layers to the sharingan, it simply just means that the power of a sharingan increases the more it has been "evolved". It's essentially power scaling but with mind control. But yeah, that somehow means that the Sharingan can overpower mind resistance given by capital G O D himself.

If the resistance granted by "capital G O D" doesn't have sufficient layers then yeah it can.

God I hope not.

It's not just simply 1 simple layer of mind resistance. It's literally the divine concept of free will, created by god himself to allow the living of middle earth to make their own choices.

I don’t see it listed as an unconventional conceptual resistance but I might have missed it. Could you send me where that's accepted please?

The only way Itachi could every have his powers truly affect Sauron would be to dominate his will. And that is not happening in the slightest.

Is what you say, yeah, but I'd like to see where that's accepted before I agree.

F*cking how? Sauron is an immortal being, he literally cannot die. Itachi couldn't even order him to destroy his ring: the rings corruption is so powerful that Itachi couldn't even order Sauron to do so much less Sauron being willing to destroy the ring on Itachi's orders.

None of what you said implies Itachi couldn't just have Sauron commit suicide.

Damn we are really wanking Itachi today huh?

How exactly is what I said "wanking"?

Whatever, Itachi is a genius ninja, but Sauron is a genius in a lot more things and to a greater degree than Itachi, so its not really saying much.

Uhhh it is? I don't care if Sauron is a genius chef or a genius movie maker, what matters is combat IQ and Itachi is pretty damn smart.

Not like it matters since yk, 1 glance is enough for sharingan genjustu, but yeah.

Oh I don't know, the fact that Sauron:

• Is a Maiar, basically a divine being that no mortal could hope to match and even made the other Maiar cower against him.

Pointless fluff.

• The fact that Sauron many times more experienced when it comes to making illusions and controling minds?
  • He practically has the same powers as Itachi, how could he not know illusions when he see's one.

More pointless fluff unless the sharingan exists in the universe, and as far as I heard in this thread so far, sharingan is pretty significantly different from the LoTR verse abilities.

• His Maiar powers practically makes illusions useless against him due to his divine nature.

More fluff.

Mind Manip is literally Itachi's only wincon yet you are saying it decides the whole fight.

That's exactly what a "win con" is man, wtf are we doing here

I've already went over this in my point about the Barrier of Unwill. At this point you are just wanking Itachi's mind manip to be stronger than gods.

"god" is an arbitrary title that doesn't mean anything on its own. Even Zeus from RoR is a "god" but he's only tier 7 with no mind resistance feats.

Look I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong but what you're saying doesn't seem to be reflected in the profiles. And I can't just blindly accept whatever you say that'd be crazy

 

[Osemere]

Regardless of formatting, there should definitely be something marking it's potency. I often see characters have dimensionality marked on the resistance section so I don't think this would be any different

I suppose you would have to do the work there to demarcate the issues here (whether “tier 0 smurf” is consistent at all) but I don’t see myself being the one to do it soon.

Well they lack the possibility of having their mind manipulated entirely so semantically, you could say it fits that description. If anything the immunity should be even superior to a standard one since hypothetically a regular immunity wouldn't protect you from having a mind imposed on you and then it being controlled (take, the ten tails fragments gaining mind and then being genjutsued) but a tier 0 resistance like this would be completely utterly impossible to get through, otherwise the character wouldn't be tier 0.

Yes, minds there definitionally would nonsensically be put in the framework of being manipulated without prior consent (such that it’s an únat — a “non-thing”), but “immunity” to me seems more unqualified; a tier 0 would be an example of this, since imposing something upon them would again be antithetical to their status of an absolute, while in this case it’s specifically qualified in terms of mental barriers being arbitrarily strong in one way, but vulnerable otherwise. It’s like how you wouldn’t be able to climb up an infinitely-high fence no matter what, even if you could just go around it (in this case, torture someone until they eventually give up and allow you to look into their mind, or seduce them, or whatever). The ring existing as like, a super-optimized strategy to get around not being able to just start hijacking people’s minds (through having something so covetous it just seduces every person eventually into willingly letting go of their mental barriers) is for this reason.

Someone with “immunity” would probably just resist this type of manipulation, in my mind, which is why you would need to give someone a mind for them to not be immune anymore if they were immune due to the lack of one, given that it’s impossible to attribute a quality to something (literally qualify it) if that thing is literally insubstantial.

 

[Arcker123]

Bump because this is interesting

 

[Tyranno223]

SNIP

Guy who works on the LotR profiles here. All verse-wide resistances like the Barrier of Unwill or any other únati come from this guy

Eru Ilúvatar

Eru Ilúvatar, also known as the One, is the supreme being of J.R.R. Tolkien's Legendarium and, as Tolkien understood Eru not as a "fictional deity" but as a name in a fictional language for the actual monotheistic God, is the same God that is referred to in all of Tolkien's writings. He is the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

I suppose you would have to do the work there to demarcate the issues here (whether “tier 0 smurf” is consistent at all) but I don’t see myself being the one to do it soon.

I've been meaning to get to changing the wording, but I'm on a semi-hiatus so it'll happen when it happens unless someone gets to it first.

 

[FireSwordHero]

I was going to just shut up about this matchup because most if not all the people say that itatchi mindstomps this, so I was just going to case my vote for Sauron and leave it at that, but **** it ill be damned if I allow some matchup to end soley because of the fan-wanking.

Also because I remembered something important.

The Barrier of unwill and the indestructible nature of souls both come from the Flame Imperishable, an aspect of all living things that (while originating from Eru) is inherent to all beings that have free will. The Flame Imperishable originates and its part of Eru, the overarching God of the LOTR cosmology, and is a part of his power.

Eru:

• Existed as the only being in the Void, and created the Timeless Halls for himself to live in, a higher dimension that is seperate from the void and is desribed as being infinite.
• With the Ainur he later created, Eru created Ea, the universe of the LOTR. While it exists admist the void, it is entirely seperated from it.
• Inside the realms of Ea itself, there also existed seperate areas such as the Blessed Isles and the Hall of Mandos. Though they existed both on Arda, they were desribed as being areas inacessible to most mortals save for divine reasons. The Blessed Isles themselves were even later removed from Arda itself, even as the world became a sphere, becoming an area only traversible by Elves and Ainur.
• Meanwhile, the Hall of Mandos was the place in which all beings with souls would rest before being send to their respective afterlives. While Elves would end up being sent to the Blessed Isles, the souls of Men were instead sent to an 'afterlife' that said to be outside Arda, possibly even Ea as well, for not even the Valar knew where they would go after death despite playing a role in the creation of Ea.

Now obviously, none of this really applies to Sauron himself, BUT the Flame Imperishable is a power that originates from and is a part of Eru, so the same power must exist as part of all souls created by Eru, as well as being responsible for creating the cosmology of LOTR as a whole.

With this in mind, here is the scaling so far for the Flame Imperishable.

Arda<<<<<Blessed Isles<<<<Hall of Mandos<<<<Ea (The Universe)<<<<Void<<<Afterlife of Men<<<<Timeless Halls<<<<Eru

In short, the concept and power of the Flame Imperishable (which in itself embodies both free will and the Barrier of Unwill) is a many times dimensional abstract power that originates from Eru himself, who in turn created the many layers of reality that makes up the LOTR. To go against the concept of the Flame Imperishable is to go against God himself, and is itself is described as a Divine Law or "Law's that can NEVER be broken"

And again, this is not even factoring in that Maia like Sauron have an additional personal layer of resistance to mind manipulation and illusion creation as part of their Ainur powers.

Tell me again how Itachi wins this? Because I can't see it.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Tell me again how Itachi wins this? Because I can't see it.

Itachi wins because Naruto fans can't read, so they ignore your arguments

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Layers don't matter if the person protecting your mind is Tier 0. Itachi's Genjutsu has never been shown working on a higher dimensional being.
Voting Sauron.

 

[Arkansalter2]

Voting Sauron FRA.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Tell me again how Itachi wins this? Because I can't see it.

LN Naruto.

 

[Huesito88]

Layers don't matter if the person protecting your mind is Tier 0. Itachi's Genjutsu has never been shown working on a higher dimensional being.
Voting Sauron.

Itachi will use his Talk no Jutsu (Which is just skilled social influencing) on the Tier 0 and convince him to remove the Tier 0 blessing from Sauron and then Genjutsu GG's Sauron

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Itachi will use his Talk no Jutsu (Which is just skilled social influencing) on the Tier 0 and convince him to remove the Tier 0 blessing from Sauron and then Genjutsu GG's Sauron

Trying Talk no Jutsu against a Genius with broken Social Influencing is a bold play.

 

[Comiphorous]

Trying Talk no Jutsu against a Genius with broken Social Influencing is a bold play.

Bold enough it might just work...

 

[Shadowslash125]

Sauron FRA

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Sauron FRA, but the good one, not the film one