Can an avatar of a Tier 0 also be Tier 0?

[Jin2188]

So I read the Omnipotence page and found a few things:

There can, however, be distinction within Tier 0 if these distinctions don't introduce a variety of essences and substances in isolation and self-exclusion from each other. For example, if there are two characters A and B, and both are one and the same being/essence/substance, not being separate from each other even in their distinction. Bear in mind that such things must be stated to be the case, or at minimum have reasonable points of inference.

Furthermore: While lower tiers permit a division between a character's statistics and the nature of their existence (e.g. A character can have 1-A power but be physically 3-D), such a division is not possible in a Tier 0. However, a loophole of sorts is present if a character is, in some way, fully backed up by one. For example, if a character has the full favor of a Tier 0, who blesses and empowers them to be protected from all harm. Alternatively, a character could also be an avatar, or incarnation, of a Tier 0.

These passages seem to imply that an avatar of a Tier 0 also counts as a Tier 0. However, when I look at the pages of some Tier 0s (Yog-Sothoth (Guns Girl Z), Yog-Sothoth (Cthulhu Mythos), and God (Seekers into the Mystery)), their avatars are not Tier 0, but 1-B, 1-A, and High 1-A+, respectively. And yet Anu, who appears to be an avatar of some sort for The Amaranth, is listed as Tier 0.

My question is: Can avatars of a Tier 0 qualify for Tier 0, and if so, how? Do they automatically qualify, or is extra evidence required?

 

[HakutoRei000]

1. No, as the avatar is just a manifestation or embodiment or some sort of lower form of the real tier 0, afaik no


2. No again, the avatar is usually need an additional context but can be or will, would placed at High 1-A+ if the said avatar to be just under the tier 0 or, if another feats showing the tier is present they just qualify for that feat


CMIIW.

 

[Jin2188]

1. No, as the avatar is just a manifestation or embodiment or some sort of lower form of the real tier 0, afaik no


2. No again, the avatar is usually need an additional context but can be or will, would placed at High 1-A+ if the said avatar to be just under the tier 0 or, if another feats showing the tier is present they just qualify for that feat


CMIIW.

The official Omnipotence page says that its possible:

However, a loophole of sorts is present if a character is, in some way, fully backed up by one. For example, if a character has the full favor of a Tier 0, who blesses and empowers them to be protected from all harm. Alternatively, a character could also be an avatar, or incarnation, of a Tier 0.

I don't know, maybe you're correct, but I don't think it makes sense to say that someone with the full power of a Tier 0 (which is outright stated in the former case, and implied in the latter) wouldn't also be Tier 0.

 

[HakutoRei000]

The official Omnipotence page says that its possible:

I don't know, maybe you're correct, but I don't think it makes sense to say that someone with the full power of a Tier 0 (which is outright stated in the former case, and implied in the latter) wouldn't also be Tier 0.

If we follow the definition you quoted, it actually reinforces why a fully backed avatar cannot be considered Tier 0. The “oneness” required for Tier 0 is not simply about being indistinguishable in power from the true Tier 0, nor is it about having some shared essence. In VSBW’s usage, oneness means complete transcendence over all distinctions — no separation in identity, no independent existence, no differentiation in nature.

An avatar, even when fully empowered by a Tier 0, still retains separation from the source. It is a manifestation, projection, or embodiment, and those terms inherently imply that the avatar operates within the framework of differences: it has its own location, point of view, causal chain, and interactions. Even if it acts with Tier 0-level abilities, the fact that it exists as something other than the true self means it has already failed the oneness requirement.

This is where “fully backed” runs into a conceptual wall. Being blessed, protected, or powered by a Tier 0 is an extrinsic state — your abilities and protection are derived from something outside of yourself. Tier 0, by definition, is intrinsic — it is the absolute, indivisible foundation of all existence and is self-sufficient without any external dependency. If your existence relies on another entity for its status, you cannot be Tier 0 because the dependency introduces differentiation and limitation.

If an avatar truly were Tier 0, there would be no difference between the avatar and the true self. In such a case, calling it an “avatar” would be misleading — it would just be the Tier 0 itself directly interacting with the verse. This would no longer be a separate manifestation, but the actual Tier 0 presence.

From a rules standpoint, this also ties into the common “one Tier 0 per verse” principle. If you declare that the avatar is its own Tier 0, you have now introduced multiplicity at the absolute level. This directly contradicts the concept of Tier 0 as indivisible and unsurpassable — two absolutes would inherently limit each other, meaning neither is truly absolute.

TL;DR: A fully powered avatar can be extremely close to Tier 0 in feats, but it cannot be Tier 0 because it is still a distinct, dependent manifestation. Tier 0 is intrinsically the absolute source beyond all separation, while an avatar is extrinsically sustained by it. If the avatar were truly Tier 0, it would cease being an avatar and simply be the Tier 0 itself, which violates both the concept of oneness and the “one Tier 0 per verse” rule.


CMIIW.

 

[SweetDao]

I don't know, maybe you're correct, but I don't think it makes sense to say that someone with the full power of a Tier 0 (which is outright stated in the former case, and implied in the latter) wouldn't also be Tier 0.

Imo, it just all depends on how it is explained in the verse. I think there is more chance for the "avatar" to be High 1-A+ or lower than 0, but it's not impossible either. You technically already have characters with tier 0 resistances here and there on the wiki, so if "that much" is possible, the same should be for virtually anything.

 

[Jin2188]

An avatar, even when fully empowered by a Tier 0, still retains separation from the source. It is a manifestation, projection, or embodiment, and those terms inherently imply that the avatar operates within the framework of differences: it has its own location, point of view, causal chain, and interactions. Even if it acts with Tier 0-level abilities, the fact that it exists as something other than the true self means it has already failed the oneness requirement.

If an avatar truly were Tier 0, there would be no difference between the avatar and the true self. In such a case, calling it an “avatar” would be misleading — it would just be the Tier 0 itself directly interacting with the verse. This would no longer be a separate manifestation, but the actual Tier 0 presence.

From a rules standpoint, this also ties into the common “one Tier 0 per verse” principle. If you declare that the avatar is its own Tier 0, you have now introduced multiplicity at the absolute level. This directly contradicts the concept of Tier 0 as indivisible and unsurpassable — two absolutes would inherently limit each other, meaning neither is truly absolute.

By this logic, the possibility put forward by the Omnipotence page does not work:

There can, however, be distinction within Tier 0 if these distinctions don't introduce a variety of essences and substances in isolation and self-exclusion from each other. For example, if there are two characters A and B, and both are one and the same being/essence/substance, not being separate from each other even in their distinction. Bear in mind that such things must be stated to be the case, or at minimum have reasonable points of inference.

Therefore, in the Cthulhu Mythos neither Azathoth nor Yog-Sothoth can qualify for Tier 0 since they are both "halves" (aka avatars) of the Supreme Archetype. This may be perfectly acceptable to you, and if so, that's fine, but it does not seem sound to me.

 

[HakutoRei000]

By this logic, the possibility put forward by the Omnipotence page does not work:

Therefore, in the Cthulhu Mythos neither Azathoth nor Yog-Sothoth can qualify for Tier 0 since they are both "halves" (aka avatars) of the Supreme Archetype. This may be perfectly acceptable to you, and if so, that's fine, but it does not seem sound to me.

that is being reviewed actually i forgot but theres a crt regarding them tl;dr I think they are gonna be cmiiw tho i forgor, downgraded to high 1-A+

By this logic, the possibility put forward by the Omnipotence page does not work:

Therefore, in the Cthulhu Mythos neither Azathoth nor Yog-Sothoth can qualify for Tier 0 since they are both "halves" (aka avatars) of the Supreme Archetype. This may be perfectly acceptable to you, and if so, that's fine, but it does not seem sound to me.

Yog-Sothoth and Azathoth being the two halves that make up the Absolute (Tier 0 wholeness) should constitute High 1-A+ for each of them individually. Since together they emanate all of existence, including all the archetypes, dream layers, and dimensions. Yog-Sothoth is specifically the grounding entity of the archetypes which is one-in-all and all-in-one with everything. That would suggest a level of existence comparable to an underlying foundation that underlies a collection of all possible worlds.

In other words, it could be considered an overarching "genus" (Encompassing property) of multiple "species" of essence (archetypes) in the way Ultima describes in his ramble blog. Essentially, Yog-Sothoth could be considered a qualitative "oneness" that underlines all the other qualities, which is another form of Type 2 High 1-A+ existence.

And no, it isn't an anti-feat for this tier that 2 beings exist in a High 1-A+ state. Since they are essentially just two halves of the same picture, rather than two different pictures with separate identities.

this is from the Lovecraft Revision.

 

[HakutoRei000]

also

That clause doesn’t actually support a “Tier 0 avatar” in the normal sense. The Omnipotence page is talking about situations where two “beings” are literally the same essence/substance, with no real separation even in their distinction — basically, one presence expressing itself in two “faces” without introducing any independent identity or isolation.

The problem is that an avatar, by definition, is a distinct manifestation. It has its own placement, its own operational perspective, and interacts with the verse as a bounded form. Those traits are varieties of distinction and isolation, because they make the avatar a “this” as opposed to “that.” Even if the avatar’s power and mind are directly linked to the Tier 0, the fact that it is a derivative manifestation moving in a framework of differentiation means it’s not the same undivided essence.

The “same essence” scenario would only apply if the avatar were literally indistinguishable from the Tier 0 in every way — no independent state, no framework confinement, no ontological separation — which in practice would make it not an avatar at all, but the Tier 0 itself acting.


but if i can't convince you then alright i respect your view.

 

[Jin2188]

also

That clause doesn’t actually support a “Tier 0 avatar” in the normal sense. The Omnipotence page is talking about situations where two “beings” are literally the same essence/substance, with no real separation even in their distinction — basically, one presence expressing itself in two “faces” without introducing any independent identity or isolation.

That's what Azathoth are Yog-Sothoth are, no?

I do see your perspective though, about avatars having a bounded existence and reference point, and this is certainly the case for physical avatars at least, although I still believe a scenario like this is possible:

However, a loophole of sorts is present if a character is, in some way, fully backed up by one. For example, if a character has the full favor of a Tier 0, who blesses and empowers them to be protected from all harm.

because it's technically the Tier 0 acting (sous rature) and not the one being "blessed", and an avatar of a Tier 0 could behave in the same way, although I will concede that this is not always the case.

So I think I've found my answer then. Thank you for the conversation, I understand your perspective and I respect it.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

So I read the Omnipotence page and found a few things:




These passages seem to imply that an avatar of a Tier 0 also counts as a Tier 0. However, when I look at the pages of some Tier 0s (Yog-Sothoth (Guns Girl Z), Yog-Sothoth (Cthulhu Mythos), and God (Seekers into the Mystery)), their avatars are not Tier 0, but 1-B, 1-A, and High 1-A+, respectively. And yet Anu, who appears to be an avatar of some sort for The Amaranth, is listed as Tier 0.

My question is: Can avatars of a Tier 0 qualify for Tier 0, and if so, how? Do they automatically qualify, or is extra evidence required?

No. There can only be one tier 0 per verse, insofar as there not being a other tier 0 that encompasses something the first tier 0 doesn't. Such is an anti feat that disqualifies both from being tier 0 to begin with.

With avatars, it depends on what the verse defines as an avatar. If it's some sort of incarnation, that definitely isn't tier 0, but it can have the protection of the tier 0, making it inapplicable to any attack or the like. But that doesn't make it tier 0 itself.

Alternatively, there's also cases where the avatars are illusions of the same entity that is tier 0. For example Azathoth and Yog Sothoth are illusory aspects perceived by the lesser mind of beings, but they are both the Surprem Archetype in actuality, and as such, are Tier 0 as both are the one and same thing.

 

[JayaReal]

No, not at all.