(1 VOTE NEEDED) Major Lord of Mysteries Revisions Part 3 (Dimensional Tiering: 5D and 11D)

[SuperNova55555]

Greetings, this’ll be the third part of the LOTM CRTs which focuses on the dimensional scaling of the series.

This’ll cover 5D and 11D scaling:

Spoiler: 12D Downgrade to 11D

It’s been previously accepted that the verse verbatim contains at least 11 spatial dimensions, and that’s not the issue here, but what is in fact an issue is that the characters scale to 12D (1-B) instead of 11D (High 1-C).

The reasoning for this, is that a character was capable of creating Groselle’s Travel, which supposedly contains its own Spirit World (which was in fact upgraded to Low 1-A in the previous CRT), and so, it has an additional temporal dimension. But there are MANY problems with this.

Firstly: The Spirit World is straight-up fake and doesn’t actually function as a real Spirit World and is instead simply actively generated by the book itself. This is, because everything in the book is illusory and fake and the only things that can actually leave are things that come from the real world instead. So everything generated in Groselle’s Travels (including the Spirit World) isn’t actually real and doesn’t actually abide by the rules of the series.

Secondly: Another application of the same ability that made Groselle’s is to envision specifically fake uniqueness/authorities. Uniquenesses have a special characteristic where there can only ever be 1 and none else, which means that these Uniquenesses that Adam created are most definitely not the same and in fact, this feat is done through the Chaos Sea (which is what Authorities originate from in the first place), so their strength is determined by the source itself. This can also be extrapolated to anything Groselle’s did as the span of the world and of any other dimension it has is determined by its initial power and can’t actually be scaled to the real Spirit World in any case.

Thirdly: There’s a 99% chance that when characters go inside of Groselle’s book, they are actually becoming negatively R>F’d or 11-C (by literally going inside the book, becoming illusory and part of its story). This is also supported because there are similar cases of fake/real realms like Klein’s Dream, which is a world inside his dream that can be made into reality through his symbols of falsehood and truth and has the exact same properties of illusion and reality as Groselle’s world does. This is also the reason why Klein can “leave” Groselle’s in any way (without the story ending), since those Symbols of truth and stuff (that instantiate the dream) originate from Sefirah Castle, and guess what? Sefirah Castle is the only thing connected to Groselle’s which Klein can reach. So yeah, it’s almost definitely R>F stuff since it’s verbatim connected to the R>F powers of the verse.

Conclusions: Every GOO should get downgraded from 12D (1-B) to 11D (High 1-C) since Groselle’s isn’t scalable at all and is actually an 11-C fake realm.

So the scaling will be essentially finalized as “High 1-C (11-D Sheer AP/Physicals), up to Low 1-A via Symbolism” as discussed in the previous CRT.

Spoiler: God and Angel Scaling

Note: Due to becoming aware of certain tiering standards, I’m now only proposing for higher-dimensional hax/range rather than AP for the following characters:

As for the other characters:

Sequence 0’s (Deities) will get High 1-C as well since Door Authority holders can travel to any space in the universe which also includes the higher spatial dimensions as well (since they specifically open portals to higher spatial dimensions).

Sequence 2’s and 1’s (Angels) will get Low 1-C (5D) since they can affect and fight Angels who are stated to move in multiple dimensions above the baseline 3D, so that’s at least +2D.

Votes: ActuallySpaceMan42 (Agrees with 11D GOOs, but not Gods/Angels), FinePoint (Agrees with 11D for GOOs and hax only for the rest), Celestial_Pegasus (Agrees with 11D and hax only)

 

[LOTM_Historian]

IMO, Angels should also be 11D. Because Dimensional Shadows are stated "to manipulate Dimensions and can freely ascend and descend Dimensions."

There isn't a distinction or upgrade between HDO's ability to manipulate and traverse dimensions and his angels and the author pretty much confirmed that there's no real difference in the dimensions they travel to, that’s why he used the word “freely.”

Plus, in the ability blog, he explicitly mentions when an ability gets upgraded / changed. And yet, he never stated that after Seq 2, there was any upgrade in how many dimensions they can traverse.

Everything else seems fine.

 

[SuperNova55555]

IMO, Angels should also be 11D. Because Dimensional Shadows are stated "to manipulate Dimensions and can freely ascend and descend Dimensions."

There isn't a distinction or upgrade between HDO's ability to manipulate and traverse dimensions and his angels and the author pretty much confirmed that there's no real difference in the dimensions they travel to, that’s why he used the word “freely.”

Plus, in the ability blog, he explicitly mentions when an ability gets upgraded / changed. And yet, he never stated that after Seq 2, there was any upgrade in how many dimensions they can traverse.

Everything else seems fine.

I’ll leave that for the mods to decide.

Canonicity is a bit weird in the scan tho, since considering the fact it’s a blog instead of a Q&A makes it seem more like a databook statement rather than WoG. I dunno how VSBW would treat this thooo

 

[LOTM_Historian]

I’ll leave that for the mods to decide.

Canonicity is a bit weird in the scan tho, since considering the fact it’s a blog instead of a Q&A makes it seem more like a databook statement rather than WoG. I dunno how VSBW would treat this thooo

Yeah, narratively it doesn’t really make sense for them not to be able to. But in any case, we can leave it to the mods to decide. I think "Possibly High 1-C" should be included at the very least for angels.

 

[Deonment]

Sequence 0’s (Deities) will get High 1-C as well since Door Authority holders can travel to any space in the universe which also includes the higher spatial dimensions as well (since they specifically open portals to higher spatial dimensions).

Sequence 2’s and 1’s (Angels) will get Low 1-C (5D) since they can affect and fight Angels who are stated to move in multiple dimensions above the baseline 3D, so that’s at least +2D.

Just existing in a higher dimension doesn't necessarily make you the same dimensionality as said dimension, either tier or HDE wise, that's dimensional scaling, which we haven't worked on since (iirc) before the forum move

 

[SuperNova55555]

Just existing in a higher dimension doesn't necessarily make you the same dimensionality as said dimension, either tier or HDE wise, that's dimensional scaling, which we haven't worked on since (iirc) before the forum move

The point is that they can affect beings who specifically change their own dimensionality or are those beings themselves. Additionally those same beings leave lower-dimensional shadows and have “unattainably high” size; so it’s not like they remain 3D.

 

[Deonment]

The point is that they can affect beings who specifically change their own dimensionality or are those beings themselves. Additionally those same beings leave lower-dimensional shadows and have “unattainably high” size; so it’s not like they remain 3D.

Firstly, scans for that, secondly the scans in the OP seem to indicate otherwise, with characters who shift themselves upwards having to shift downwards when if they actually higher D they could just destroy the planet from their higher reality, even if you argue that they are fully higher dimensional up there, it wouldn't be combat applicable AP

 

[SuperNova55555]

Firstly, scans for that, secondly the scans in the OP seem to indicate otherwise, with characters who shift themselves upwards having to shift downwards when if they actually higher D they could just destroy the planet from their higher reality, even if you argue that they are fully higher dimensional up there, it wouldn't be combat applicable AP

Here.

Firstly, higher dimensional beings still have distinct size in lower dimensions—for instance, I don’t leave infinitely wide shadows, nor could I destroy an infinitely wide 2D plane. If you drew a circle the diameter of a planet, I could punch through it, but I most definitely can’t destroy it all.

And secondly, say they fully exist in the higher dimensions; being capable of not interacting with the lower ones is sort of a mute point as this is like saying that a character with R>F shouldn’t be 1-A because they technically don’t interact with the fictional work. (+ these beings use their abilities to interact with multiple dimensions simultaneously so it doesn’t mean much for combat application)

Also, we don’t know their exact physical strength either way since this exact fight was sort of off-screened and only consisted of hax spamming (as in, they didn’t throw a single punch and spammed revives and abilities from the higher dimensions). + they don’t even care about the planet lmao, they wanted to kill the other angels (who scale the same as them), instead.

And lastly, the verse just seems to be treating dimensions in a qualitative sense, instead of just simply being an Aleph 1 difference (which honestly is kind of stupid on VSBW’s part as all dimensions above 0D have the exact same cardinality), as there’s also earlier mentions of the difference between dimensions being described in an R>F sense. (The context here being that within paintings there are lower two-dimensional realities that can be accessed through powers of the Painter Pathway; though I do admit that, contextually, it’s a bit unclear whether or not it’s referring to dimensions in the same manner as the above scans)

 

[Pluto321]

netural but High 1C scaling for GOO would be AP only not Physical since first of all Pathways/Boons System is not a Universal Energy System and Not GOO scaling to there Authorities or Symbolism physically.

 

[SuperNova55555]

netural but High 1C scaling for GOO would be AP only not Physical since first of all Pathways/Boons System is not a Universal Energy System and Not GOO scaling to there Authorities or Symbolism physically.

Ye, I think I alr said this(?), only High-Dimensional Overseer scales physically there

 

[Pluto321]

Ye, I think I alr said this(?), only High-Dimensional Overseer scales physically there

But Why High Dimensional Overseer hasn't anything physical of that level in book 2 or CF's Info Dump every Monday.

 

[SuperNova55555]

But Why High Dimensional Overseer hasn't anything physical of that level in book 2 or CF's Info Dump every Monday.

Because as I explained above, HDO specifically raises and lowers his spatial dimensions, while also leaving shadows from higher dimensions, which is based on an allegory in certain physics models where higher-dimensional objects leave lower-dimensional “shadows” the same way us 3D beings leave 2D shadows

So when he “descends” or “ascends”, HDO literally dimensionally reduces or increases himself

 

[Deonment]

Firstly, higher dimensional beings still have distinct size in lower dimensions—for instance, I don’t leave infinitely wide shadows, nor could I destroy an infinitely wide 2D plane. If you drew a circle the diameter of a planet, I could punch through it, but I most definitely can’t destroy it all.

For the first point, true, for the rest, not really, at least not with how our standards work, requiring a character to affect a certain amount of hypervolume (an infinite or at minimum universe sized amount of the stuff given our tier 2 standards, I disagree with it, but it is what it is), to be tier 2 you need to affect a 4D hypervolume of a certain size, and already puts you above the capacity to destroy infinite 3D space

And secondly, say they fully exist in the higher dimensions; being capable of not interacting with the lower ones is sort of a mute point as this is like saying that a character with R>F shouldn’t be 1-A because they technically don’t interact with the fictional work. (+ these beings use their abilities to interact with multiple dimensions simultaneously so it doesn’t mean much for combat application)

1-A and above is about state of existence, Low 1-A and below is about scope you can affect, simply existing in a 1-A realm makes you 1-A, existing in 13th dimensional space doesn't make you 1-B (for multiple reasons but they aren't relevant here), you need to affect a significant volume of 13th dimensional space to be 1-B

Also, we don’t know their exact physical strength either way since this exact fight was sort of off-screened and only consisted of hax spamming (as in, they didn’t throw a single punch and spammed revives and abilities from the higher dimensions). + they don’t even care about the planet lmao, they wanted to kill the other angels (who scale the same as them), instead.

I mean fair enough, but I wasn't talking about physical strength than I was AP

And lastly, the verse just seems to be treating dimensions in a qualitative sense, instead of just simply being an Aleph 1 difference (which honestly is kind of stupid on VSBW’s part as all dimensions above 0D have the exact same cardinality), as there’s also earlier mentions of the difference between dimensions being described in an R>F sense. (The context here being that within paintings there are lower two-dimensional realities that can be accessed through powers of the Painter Pathway; though I do admit that, contextually, it’s a bit unclear whether or not it’s referring to dimensions in the same manner as the above scans)

(I mean, what part of it is stupid, considering that's literally just how dimensions work but, it's a space whose size is R^x (not literally but you get the point) where R is the real number line and x is the dimensions, they all have the same size bar 0 and N and above (where N is the set of the naturals))
I mean it does seem to be properly 2 dimensional, but honestly this wouldn't be the first time a chinese verse has used a painting (or something to do with realness) as an analogue for higher or lower dimensions (something something soul land)

 

[SuperNova55555]

(I mean, what part of it is stupid, considering that's literally just how dimensions work but, it's a space whose size is R^x (not literally but you get the point) where R is the real number line and x is the dimensions, they all have the same size bar 0 and N and above (where N is the set of the naturals))
I mean it does seem to be properly 2 dimensional, but honestly this wouldn't be the first time a chinese verse has used a painting (or something to do with realness) as an analogue for higher or lower dimensions (something something soul land)

The issue is that the cardinality difference (as I mentioned) only suffices for the movement between 0D and 1D, as for every other spatial dimension, all of them have the exact same cardinality, so by math alone dimensions aren’t properly explained. Instead, you need to employ other concepts like topology and the like.

In any case, I want to raise a quick scenario:

Imagine an infinite 2D plane and random finite-sized cube.

If we were to dissect the cube into an uncountably infinite amount of 2D slices and then calculated the surface area; it would surely be bigger than the surface area of the plane (Aleph 1 > Aleph Null).

But here lies a problem:

You don’t interact with the 2D plane through your full 3D existence, instead, if you were to poke into the 2D plane, you would be doing so with a single 2D slice at a time but… since the cube is finite, any single 2D slice of the cube is finite as well. It’s purely by the quality of extending into an additional axis that it has this arbitrarily larger size.

This is the source for the reasoning I brought earlier; if you were to present before me an infinite 2D plane that extends across the whole universe, there would be absolutely no chance for me to destroy it, even if I’m technically “uncountably larger” than it.

For this reason, I don’t really think it matters a lot whether or not these specific beings extend into the lower dimensions or not. But again, the standards here might not really care so I dunno.

In any case, if needing to fully affect the higher dimension is a requirement here, then that’s not necessarily a problem as there are multiple feats of characters affecting the entire universe and it’s dimensions, so the scaling would still remain tenable, I believe.

 

[Deonment]

You don’t interact with the 2D plane through your full 3D existence, instead, if you were to poke into the 2D plane, you would be doing so with a single 2D slice at a time but… since the cube is finite, any single 2D slice of the cube is finite as well. It’s purely by the quality of extending into an additional axis that it has this arbitrarily larger size.

This is the source for the reasoning I brought earlier; if you were to present before me an infinite 2D plane that extends across the whole universe, there would be absolutely no chance for me to destroy it, even if I’m technically “uncountably larger” than it.

For this reason, I don’t really think it matters a lot whether or not these specific beings extend into the lower dimensions or not. But again, the standards here might not really care so I dunno.

Yeah, ofc, but the standards basically require you to affect either a hypervolume of like (universe radius)^n dimensions or an infinite radius instead (It's the latter more often than not, but even if it isn't due to how stuff is currently, being of a higher tier presupposes you upscaling from anything lower dimensional infinite or not, its scuffed but it's how it works and there are a couple of reasons for it)

In any case, if needing to fully affect the higher dimension is a requirement here, then that’s not necessarily a problem as there are multiple feats of characters affecting the entire universe and it’s dimensions, so the scaling would still remain tenable, I believe.

I mean sure, scan please, but if that's true then I'm fine with it, I just took issue with "is higher dimensional/exists in a higher dimension" giving tiers

 

[SuperNova55555]

Yeah, ofc, but the standards basically require you to affect either a hypervolume of like (universe radius)^n dimensions or an infinite radius instead (It's the latter more often than not, but even if it isn't due to how stuff is currently, being of a higher tier presupposes you upscaling from anything lower dimensional infinite or not, its scuffed but it's how it works and there are a couple of reasons for it)

I mean sure, scan please, but if that's true then I'm fine with it, I just took issue with "is higher dimensional/exists in a higher dimension" giving tiers

Well, for Great Old Ones, the universal part is already covered here and with more specific feats like this (and with a bunch of other universe-sized feats I could list if necessary).

I believe for Angels then, I would probably have to drop it since they shouldn’t have any specifically universal-ranged attacks. And as for the Gods, I believe the scaling is still tenable but I’ll have to search for some scans real quick.

 

[Deonment]

Well, for Great Old Ones, the universal part is already covered here and with more specific feats like this (and with a bunch of other universe-sized feats I could list if necessary).

I'm fine with GOOs having it even without that given HDO and being comparable to him and all that jazz

I believe for Angels then, I would probably have to drop it since they shouldn’t have any specifically universal-ranged attacks. And as for the Gods, I believe the scaling is still tenable but I’ll have to search for some scans real quick.

sure, take your time

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Downgrade is fine, though Deon has a point about the scaling.

 

[Pluto321]

snip.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/major...sional-tiering-5d-and-11d.182343/post-7228073
Would this qualify for High Dimensional Overseer having 11D Physical or Ap through Hax only?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/major...sional-tiering-5d-and-11d.182343/post-7228073
Would this qualify for High Dimensional Overseer having 11D Physical or Ap through Hax only?

Varying Physicals via Hax since they're changign their own spatial dimensions.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Varying Physicals via Hax since they're changign their own spatial dimensions.

I do wonder what we would give the other Angels tho, since they don’t qualify for Low 1-C due to not affecting the entire dimension, but they also change their dimensions. So would we put that as “varying durability” or “HDE but not AP” or just not count it at all.

 

[Deonment]

I do wonder what we would give the other Angels tho, since they don’t qualify for Low 1-C due to not affecting the entire dimension, but they also change their dimensions. So would we put that as “varying durability” or “HDE but not AP” or just not count it at all.

HDE but not AP

 

[Exoko]

Agreed with the GOO scaling, Angels & Gods I can only suggesting trying to use either feats on the Mirror World (but I forgot if that completely mirrored the Material World and can only remember Cheek saying it would completely restore Reality using a reflection of it as the Mirrored OC) or just let it pass for now & hope for an easier time with feats with the latter Monday info dumps from CF. Or try using a feat of a S0's authority affecting a GOO somehow, like Amon's Loophole which abused the Law of Similarity in Project Vortex, but idk if this would count for anything.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Agreed with the GOO scaling, Angels & Gods I can only suggesting trying to use either feats on the Mirror World (but I forgot if that completely mirrored the Material World and can only remember Cheek saying it would completely restore Reality using a reflection of it as the Mirrored OC) or just let it pass for now & hope for an easier time with feats with the latter Monday info dumps from CF. Or try using a feat of a S0's authority affecting a GOO somehow, like Amon's Loophole which abused the Law of Similarity in Project Vortex, but idk if this would count for anything.

Nah, they wouldn’t scale to GOOs even if they can affect them cuz that’s hax and not universal AP. Like, Door Authority is stated to be able to very momentarily seal a GOO if they specifically do not resist at all, but that obviously doesn’t give 11D AP.

As for the Mirror World; even if it did completely copy the whole cosmology, I’m not sure that there’s a feat that gives Sequence 0s the full AP for it. Only like Lumian should directly scale to it, but that’s cuz he’s a GOO.

 

[SuperNova55555]

I mean, I guess there’s this; but what’s there to prove higher-dimensional mirrors even exist?

 

[FinePoint]

The downgrade to 11D and/or discredit of the 12th dimension seems fine to me.

I'll remain neutral on the scaling for now due to lack of knowledge.

 

[SuperNova55555]

The downgrade to 11D and/or discredit of the 12th dimension seems fine to me.

I'll remain neutral on the scaling for now due to lack of knowledge.

I’m personally settling with Angels and the like simply having higher-dimensional hax at best; at least, that’s what I believe considering the standards we seem to have for tiering here.

The narrative in LOTM, after all, makes it clear that universal powers only appear in relation to the Sefirot—something that is qualitatively above the likes of Sequence 0 and below.

So instead, I’ll simply propose 5D/11D hax for Angels/Gods instead of AP.

 

[Exoko]

I mean, I guess there’s this; but what’s there to prove higher-dimensional mirrors even exist?

I was thinking of this then saw this' and so it can't be used,
I'm gonna go look for more things related to the River of Fate and see if I can whip something up from there,

 

[SuperNova55555]

I was thinking of this then saw this' and so it can't be used,
I'm gonna go look for more things related to the River of Fate and see if I can whip something up from there,

Aspects of OC don’t count lol. All of them automatically outscale every GOO, but that’s not something you can scale with Sequence 0s either way.

In any case, yea, the second scan kind of debunks the whole mirror world stuff since it’s not a true reflection either way + would lwk be a huge outlier for S0 anyways.

I’m still sticking with hax only.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Bump

 

[SuperNova55555]

Bumppppp

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I’m personally settling with Angels and the like simply having higher-dimensional hax at best; at least, that’s what I believe considering the standards we seem to have for tiering here.

The narrative in LOTM, after all, makes it clear that universal powers only appear in relation to the Sefirot—something that is qualitatively above the likes of Sequence 0 and below.

So instead, I’ll simply propose 5D/11D hax for Angels/Gods instead of AP.

This seems fine to me.

 

[SuperNova55555]

This seems fine to me.

I see, thank you I believe Spaceman is also fine with the hax portion, so this can be closed; though, if necessary, they can be tagged again to confirm

 

[Attendent_of_Mysteries]

Bump

 

[SuperNova55555]

Bump

 

[Rez]

Bump

 

[Attendent_of_Mysteries]

BUMP

 

[Hjdjdhf]

BUMP

 

[SuperNova55555]

We need like 1 vote bru

 

[SuperNova55555]

Another day… another bump… 🫩