Tolkien Tier High 1-A+ and 0 Proposal

[Tyranno223]

Which staff members think what here so far, and what do we currently need to evaluate here?

DDM believes it's alright, Bambu has declined to comment (given they do not deal with tier 1), and Finepoint has yet to give a comment, although they said they are willing to give their view on the proposal if asked.

 

[Antvasima]

DDM believes it's alright, Bambu has declined to comment (given they do not deal with tier 1), and Finepoint has yet to give a comment, although they said they are willing to give their view on the proposal if asked.

@FinePoint

What do you think about this?

 

[FinePoint]

@FinePoint

What do you think about this?

I'm still a little sick, but can probably get back to it tomorrow.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem. Thank you for helping out.

 

[FinePoint]

Alright. I'm finally caught up on requests.

Given this thread is 9 pages long, does anyone have a summary of what's been discussed so far?

 

[MasterOfArda]

he gist of the argument, as I understand it, seems to be that the Ainur can create arbitrary possible worlds. This stems from the concept of "sub-creator". It seems to be agreed, that primary reality transcends secondary reality, that Ea is secondary reality, that all possible worlds can exist in secondary reality, and therefore primary reality transcends all possible worlds. The disagreement is:

• do the Ainur exist in "primary reality", or just Eru?
• do certain quotes referring to "sub-creators" realizing all possible worlds apply to the Ainur?

 

[Tyranno223]

SNIP

Here's my extended summary.

 

[Tyranno223]

SNIP

Oops, meant to quote you in the above reply too.

 

[MasterOfArda]

You, didn't quote anything in either replies? Is there a missing link?

Edit: oh, it links to the previous post! I didn't know that!

 

[Antvasima]

he gist of the argument, as I understand it, seems to be that the Ainur can create arbitrary possible worlds. This stems from the concept of "sub-creator". It seems to be agreed, that primary reality transcends secondary reality, that Ea is secondary reality, that all possible worlds can exist in secondary reality, and therefore primary reality transcends all possible worlds. The disagreement is:

• do the Ainur exist in "primary reality", or just Eru?
• do certain quotes referring to "sub-creators" realizing all possible worlds apply to the Ainur?

Here's my extended summary.

@FinePoint

 

[FinePoint]

The Tier 0 seems pretty straight-forward.

Regarding High 1-A+:

I would be extremely hesitant to prescribe really any value to the author's personal beliefs and any extrapolation of connection resulting from it.

However, it seems like there's plenty of cosmological evidence present in the verse regardless.

It's my understanding that we treat knowledge and power as fundamentally different. Even at Tier 1, one does not necessarily have knowledge of their own entire being/capabilities. However, since the verse itself seems to conflate the two it does get a little more complicated.

I'd say the best compromise which balances both our own standards and the verse's possible interpretations would be something like:
"1-A, Possibly High 1-A+"

 

[Antvasima]

If somebody writes a single explanation post for what needs to be evaluated here, I can ping some other knowledgeable staff members to help out.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Reviewing the thread, it seems the one issue I mentioned ("do the Ainur live in primary reality, or just Eru") was already explained pretty thoroughly by Tyranno. The evidence is overwhelmingly consistent that the Ainur are in a "higher" reality than Ea, and only a single quote maybe refers to them in secondary reality relative to Eru - which is not a problem either way, because "primary"/"secondary" are relative terms: the Ainur and Ea are secondary to Eru, Ea is secondary to the Ainur. There also seems to be agreement on this issue, looking at the various posts.

As for whether Tolkien's metaphysics apply to his fiction, all those letters were published as official Tolkien books - these aren't Twitter posts, but official, sanctioned books. Tolkien's official letters have always been considered cannon, and that is a good policy. Many of these quotations are metaphysics in the direct context of his fiction. I think there's agreement on this issue as well.

This leaves only one issue, the issue of "knowledge". This last crux determines whether it's a 1-A or High 1-A+ ranking. Since no one has proposed anything less than "1-A, possibly High 1-A+", I suggest we give Tyranno approval to implement that, while the issue of "knowledge" is hashed out.

Spoiler: Tyranno's Key Excerpt

Now, for knowledge, while it is a "limit" of sorts to the Ainur, I do not consider it a limit on capability so much as a limit on imagination. For example, when Morgoth's song overcomes the music of other Ainur, none are harmed, not even those nearest to him. Furthermore, all the actual capabilities of the Valar appear equal at this stage, as any could have gone the route of Melkor if they had decided to repute Eru's lessons and strike out on their own.

• "Of this we may be sure, we children of small strength: any one of the Valar might have taken the paths of Melkor and become like him: one was enough." - The Nature of Middle-Earth, Part Two: Body, Mind and Spirit, VII: Mind-Pictures

It stands that the Ainur do not so much differ in literal power so much as knowledge at this stage, with said knowledge being the grounds upon which they are compared.

Of course, this lack of knowledge isn't restricting beyond say their creativity, they can go beyond their given roles due to their free-wills afterall. Therefore, there isn't a restriction on their ability to influence/create all possible words (having the capacity even if not the knowledge seems acceptable judging by profiles like The Star-Maker).

• "...Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwë was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two, IX ÓSANWE-KENTA
• "In this Myth the rebellion of created free-will precedes creation of the World (Eä); and Eä has in it, subcreatively introduced, evil, rebellions, discordant elements of its own nature already when the Let it Be was spoken." - Letter 212

Moreover, there isn't a true "power" difference in the "punch harder" way. For example, even at point-blank (relatively speaking on such a higher scale), none of the "lesser" Ainur were harmed by Melkor.

• "But the discord of Melkor rose in uproar and contended with it, and again there was a war of sound more violent than before, until many of the Ainur were dismayed and sang no longer, and Melkor had the mastery..." - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË

By this I was somewhat trying to differentiate the idea of literal power from knowledge. Ainur at this stage of their existence do not have a outright definition to their "might" beyond knowledge, yes. Indeed, this is why Manwë is mightier than say some Maiar.

"Knowledge of the Story as it was when composed, before realization, gave them their measure of fore-knowledge; the amount varied very much, from the fairly complete knowledge of the mind of the Creator in this matter possessed by Manwë, the 'Elder King', to that of lesser spirits who might have been interested only in some subsidiary matter (such as trees or birds)." - Letter 200. - emphasis on fairly, Manwë comes as close as possible, no more than that.

But this doesn't seem to be literal power in the sense of "Goku's Kamehameha beats Vegeta's Galick Gun". Ainur at this stage cannot harm one another and can only overcome one another via "knowledge". Melkor overcame lesser Ainur with his discordant music, but no harm was done upon those who were against him despite the great power of the Musics.

Moreover, while knowledge limits what they can "create", it is only because they obey Eru's laws. When Melkor decided to become disobedient, he made something he was not taught, the discourse of Evil. This is in contrast to Manwë who naturally would never go beyond them.
"...Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwë was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two, IX ÓSANWE-KENTA

Therefore in this sense, knowledge can be used to say X Ainu is "mightier" as they possess more ability to create, but only because they obey Eru. Once Eru is disobeyed, Ainur can go beyond their knowledge and make whatever they imagine, just like a writer. It is essentially the limits of what they can imagine not output.

It's essentially that the Ainur are assistants to the author until one goes off on their own to become their own author... well not really as Eru cannot be equaled, but there you go.

Something I acknowledge is that this answer to the issue of knowledge isn't entirely water-tight as it is ultimately a interpretation (albeit all things are, but this in particular).

It is a rather singular issue for High 1-A+ that I believe has been mostly dealt with, but due to the interpretability of this final potential issue, I'm more accepting of a possibly rating for the Ainur rather than a solid one.

This is the last remaining issue. I have my own solution, but I'll wait till Tyranno responds.

Edit: @Antvasima, I think you can ping the staff, if you want.

 

[Antvasima]

If somebody writes a single explanation post for what needs to be evaluated here, I can ping some other knowledgeable staff members to help out.

I meant a post that explains ALL of the issues that our staff members currently need to evaluate here.

 

[MasterOfArda]

I'm pretty sure Tyranno's post and my post listed out all the issues. Is there something else you wanted me to add? I can add it.

 

[Tyranno223]

I meant a post that explains ALL of the issues that our staff members currently need to evaluate here.

For the record, currently DDM has also given their approval alongside FinePoint so I believe only one more staff vote is needed.

SNIP

My extended summary still covers the issues that are relevant.

SNIP

I believe MasterOfArda also pointed out a major extract to check, although I've admittedly only lightly checked. I'm still a bit worn out for now.

 

[MasterOfArda]

For the record, currently DDM has also given their approval alongside FinePoint so I believe only one more staff vote is needed.

How 'bout Colonel Krukov? He's the only other staff listed in verse supporters. (Ultima seems to be on hiatus)

 

[MasterOfArda]

@Antvasima

I think we have everything in the last few posts that a staff member needs to evaluate. Could you ping whichever knowledgeable members aren't on break?

 

[Ellbekarym]

I don't believe that the Ainur are 1-A, let alone higher than that. I have already given lengthy explanations to this effect, but this 1-A business is apparently no longer open to discussion.

As for High 1-A, I could respond to the summary that has just been presented, if that would be useful even though it seems that the time is no longer relevant. Since it is obviously not so much a summary of the contentious points as an argument in favor of those points.

 

[Grand_Astartes]

I don't believe that the Ainur are 1-A, let alone higher than that. I have already given lengthy explanations to this effect, but this 1-A business is apparently no longer open to discussion.

As for High 1-A, I could respond to the summary that has just been presented, if that would be useful even though it seems that the time is no longer relevant. Since it is obviously not so much a summary of the contentious points as an argument in favor of those points.

I mean, there have already been several summaries of both sides, but of course, if you want, you can summarize it again. Otherwise, this will just be an endless rehashing of the same points that were already covered and voted for/against.

 

[Tyranno223]

I mean, there have already been several summaries of both sides, but of course, if you want, you can summarize it again. Otherwise, this will just be an endless rehashing of the same points that were already covered and voted for/against.

At this point, I think it's been over a full year. Reminds me of some of the worst Dragon Ball threads.

Honestly, I'm just trying to wrap this up at this point, hence the compromise.

 

[Ellbekarym]

At this point, I think it's been over a full year. Reminds me of some of the worst Dragon Ball threads.

Honestly, I'm just trying to wrap this up at this point, hence the compromise.

I say this because your summary is, I repeat, in itself an argument for the points raised.

But I'm too lazy to write another long post, so I'll only do so if necessary.

 

[Tyranno223]

I say this because your summary is, I repeat, in itself an argument for the points raised.

But I'm too lazy to write another long post, so I'll only do so if necessary.

I did acknowledge that I am hardly an unbiased source to be getting a summary from when I was asked to make one. And I did make an earlier shorter summary that was a summation of everyone's last points + the contents of my messages with Ultima on the matter.

Honestly, can we just let this thread resolve and then tackle your contentions in another thread? Because this thread is far too old.

Unless you have something genuinely brand new, because let's be honest, we spent pages repeating the same points.

 

[Ellbekarym]

I did acknowledge that I am hardly an unbiased source to be getting a summary from when I was asked to make one. And I did make an earlier shorter summary that was a summation of everyone's last points + the contents of my messages with Ultima on the matter.

Honestly, can we just let this thread resolve and then tackle your contentions in another thread? Because this thread is far too old.

Unless you have something genuinely brand new, because let's be honest, we spent pages repeating the same points.

No, I will definitely not reopen the subject once it has been closed.

I will wait to see what the evaluators think.

 

[Tyranno223]

No, I will definitely not reopen the subject once it has been closed.

I will wait to see what the evaluators think.

Sure, that's fine by me.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Tyranno, could you write your proposed justification for "1-A, possibly High 1-A"? Like, the exact paragraph you'd use? Maybe if we just asked the staff to confirm that, we could wrap this thread up quicker.

Edit: maybe we should ask the admins to unlock the pages, so at least every Low 1-C tier can be swapped to 1-A. That won't even require changing the word or justification. The current text will work fine.

 

[Antvasima]

@Executor_N0 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Everything12 @Ovy7 @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @RatherClueless @GrathOfLux @Udlmaster @FinePoint @SamanPatou @ActuallySpaceMan42

Are any of you willing to help out with evaluating this please?

Tolkien Tier High 1-A+ and 0 Proposal

Which staff members think what here so far, and what do we currently need to evaluate here? 🙏 DDM believes it's alright, Bambu has declined to comment (given they do not deal with tier 1), and Finepoint has yet to give a comment, although they said they are willing to give their view on the...

vsbattles.com

 

[FinePoint]

Are any of you willing to help out with evaluating this please?

I believe I already did.

 

[Elizhaa]

High 1-A+ look fine.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

That 3 mod votes come on thats got be enough

 

[Tyranno223]

That 3 mod votes come on thats got be enough

Yes I believe that is.

 

[Tyranno223]

SNIP

With three staff votes, I believe the thread is concluded. Should it remain open until the changes are made?

 

[Bernkastelll]

It took an entire year huh... I guess all my work here is done.

 

[Grand_Astartes]

It took an entire year huh... I guess all my work here is done.

Bro appeared outta nowhere

 

[Timeless]

With three staff votes, I believe the thread is concluded. Should it remain open until the changes are made?

prolly

 

[Antvasima]

Do you need any pages unlocked? If so, please write an exactly worded title list in pure text format here, so it turns much easier to unlock them.

 

[Antvasima]

I'd say the best compromise which balances both our own standards and the verse's possible interpretations would be something like:
"1-A, Possibly High 1-A+"

Also, is this what should be applied?

 

[MasterOfArda]

Also, is this what should be applied?

I think it depends how the justification is phrased. When the exact text is finally written, it could be either "possibly High 1-A" or stronger depending on how it's phrased and how persuasive it seems. Since two staff agreed to straight High 1-A and another staff said "1-A, possibly High 1-A", I think either option is acceptable, and it all depends on how Tyranno writes it. That would be my thinking.

 

[Tyranno223]

Also, is this what should be applied?

I assume so?

DDM said "it was fine" by them, which I'm assuming to be about the last post which was 1-A, possibly High 1-A+
Finepoint went for "1-A, Possibly High 1-A+"
And Elizha said High 1-A+ was fine.

Do you need any pages unlocked? If so, please write an exactly worded title list in pure text format here, so it turns much easier to unlock them.

I believe we still need a justification written up.

Is the below text alright to apply?

Outerverse level (The Ainur in their origin are residents of the "primary creation", with the difference between a primary and a secondary world being described as the difference between reality and "myth and fairy-story". In this state, they resided in a world of purely will and awareness outside the space-time of Eä once it was created, with the Ainur being described as beyond the bounds and limits of time and space), possibly High Outerverse level+ (Sub-creators, the creators of stories and myth within the Primary Reality, are described as possessing "no bounds, but the laws of contradiction" in their capacity as "writers". As the "highest created beings" created by Eru, the Ainur are potentially similar existences to these sub-creators, with the Ainur possessing "special 'sub-creative' powers" as Eru grants them certainty that their creations are given reality, unlike the writers who do not possess this certainty)

Below are all the pages that needs unlocking

Gandalf

Gandalf, originally known as Olórin, is a member of the order of wizards known as the Istari. Despite his appearance, Gandalf is not a human sorcerer, but rather a Maia of the ancient race of beings known as the Ainur, who existed before the creation of Arda. He is one of the main heroes in both...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Saruman

Saruman is the fallen White Wizard and one of the Istari, five Maiar who came to Arda in the forms of old men to help in the conflict against Sauron. Eventually, Saruman allied himself with Sauron, hoping to betray him once he had learned his weakness so he could establish himself as ruler of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Sauron

Sauron (or Þauron (Thauron); Quenya; IPA: [ˈsaʊron] or Vanyarin; IPA: [ˈθaʊron] - "The Abhorred"), the eponymous Lord of the Rings, was a fallen Maia, the creator of the One Ring, and the most trusted lieutenant of his master Melkor (Morgoth, the first Dark Lord). After Melkor's defeat in the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Morgoth

Morgoth, (Sindarin for "Dark Tyrant" or the "Dark Foe"), originally known as Melkor (Quenya for "He who arises in might"), is the primary antagonist of The Silmarillion. He was once the greatest of the Ainur, servants and creations of the Creator, Eru Ilúvatar, before becoming the first Dark...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Balrogs (Lord of the Rings)

Balrogs, or Balrogath ("Balrog-kind"), were Maiar corrupted by Morgoth either before or after the creation of Arda. The Balrogs are great fire spirits, who cloak themselves in shadow and flame and carry whips and swords. Famed Balrogs include Gothmog, slain by Ecthelion, and Durin's Bane, slain...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Gothmog (Balrog)

Gothmog was the Lord of the Balrogs during the First Age and was the greatest Balrog ever to walk Middle-earth. He was the High Captain of Angband, one of Morgoth's most trusted generals, leading the Dark Lord's forces to victory in countless Battles. His only possible superior in rank was...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Arien

Arien was originally a spirit of fire whom Melkor failed to corrupt. In the days of the Two Trees, Arien was a Maia maiden who tended to the golden flowers in the gardens of Vána. She would water the flowers of Vána with dew gathered from the golden tree Laurelin. After the destruction of the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Ilmarë

Ilmarë is the handmaid of Varda. She is chief among the Maiar, being described as a peer to Eonwe. Ilmarë is the Quenya world for starlight and is derived from Ilma. Christopher Tolkien has noted that Ilmarë is related to such words as Ilmen and Ilmarin. Tier: High 3-A | 1-A, possibly High 1-A...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Melian

Before her entrance to Middle-Earth, Melian the Maia was a servant of both Vana and Este, and lived in Lorien (Irmo's realm), where she tended the trees that grew in the gardens. She was the wisest, most beautiful, and most skillful Maia spirit of Lorien, as well as an incomparable singer - even...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Ossë

Ossë (From the Valarin Ošošai, Oššai) is a fictional character in the works of J. R. R. Tolkien. He is introduced in The Silmarillion as an angelic being known as a Maia, associated with Ulmo, one of the Valar. A spirit of the sea in the service of Ulmo, Ossë guarded the waters around...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Tilion

Tilion was a Maia who guided the Moon. In the days of the trees in Valinor, Tilion had been a hunter from the company of Oromë. Though he often rode with Oromë, he spent much of his free time in Lórien, under the light of Telperion. Tilion loved silver (he even used a silver bow), and he begged...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Eönwë

Eönwë is the banner-bearer and herald of Manwë, the Elder King of Arda. Described as chief among the Maiar loyal to the Valar alongside Ilmarë, Eönwë is one of the greatest of his kind, with his might in arms being surpassed by none in Arda. In the War of Wrath against Morgoth, Eönwë led the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Aulë

Aulë was a smith and worker of the world, and as such he was among the Valar most similar in thought and powers to Melkor, in that they each glorified the fashioning of artful and original things. Both also had the desire and power to create beings of their own, albeit soulless ones. But while...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Estë

Estë was the grey-clad wife of Irmo, Vala of "Visions, dreams, and desires." She lived with her husband in their gardens, the famous Gardens of Lórien. She was said not to walk by day but instead slept upon an island in the midst of the tree-shadowed Lake of Lórellin in Lórien. All the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Irmo

Irmo (Who's true name was Lórien) was the brother of Námo/Mandos, who, together with Nienna were known as the Fëanturi, the "Masters of Spirits." Irmo himself was the "Master of Visions, Dreams, and Desires." His wife Estë the Gentle lived with him in Lórien (A place named after him). The...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Mandos

Mandos (Whose true name was Namo) is the brother of Irmo (Lórien) and Nienna. The three of them are the Fëanturi, the Masters of Spirits. His wife was Vaire the Weaver. After the captivity of Melkor, Mandos pronounced his Doom: He was to spend three Ages under the duress of Mandos, guarded by...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Manwë

Manwë is the Elder King of Arda and brethren to Melkor in the mind of Eru Ilúvatar. He is said to be the one that best understands the will and designs of Eru, and acted as the chief instrument against Melkor's discourse during the second theme of the Ainulindalë, the Great Music. Manwë would...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Nessa (The Silmarilion)

Nessa, whose name means, "Young," is one of the Ainur, and a Vala who is known for her great speed and agility, being able to outrun the deer that chase her and her love of dancing in the ever-green fields of Aman. Childlike, innocent and forever young, she is the wife of Tulkas and sister of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Nienna

Nienna was the Vala of mourning, and she pitied the suffering of others and the wounds of Arda, especially its marring by Melkor. However, it is said the lesson of Nienna is not of endless grief, but rather of pity, hope, and the endurance of the spirit. Nienna was one of Fëanturi and dwelt in...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Oromë

Oromë was a mighty lord and a great huntsman, and he would often train his servants in the Maiar and beasts how to pursue the evil creatures of Melkor. He adored the lands of Middle-earth so greatly that he was initially unwilling to leave it. He is contrasted against Tulkas in demeanor: Whereas...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Tulkas

Tulkas first appeared during the First War. Having heard of his fellow Ainur's struggle against Melkor, Tulkas was the last of the Valar to descend upon Arda, thus tipping the scales of the battle against Melkor enough to drive him from Arda. Melkor fled before him, and the Spring of Arda was...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Ulmo

Ulmo rarely came to the Councils of Máhanaxar, and only when in great need. He preferred to stay in Arda, albeit not by walking on the land, as his form was terrible and would fill any Man or Elf with great dread. All waters were under his authority: Bays, rivers and even the waters deep under...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Varda

Varda was the queen of the stars and the most beautiful of all the Valar and Valier. She was so beautiful her beauty was said to be beyond the description of Men and Elves, and her face radiates with the light of Eru Ilúvatar. Unsurprisingly, it was said that "in light is her power and her joy."...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Vairë

Vairë is one of the Valier, the Queens of the Valar. Though not as great in power or prestige as the likes of Varda or Yavanna, she is still stronger than the likes of Nessa. Her "storied webs," a record of the history of Arda (And possibly Eä), cover the interior of the Halls of Mandos, where...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Vána

Vána is the younger sister of Yavanna and the wife of Oromë. In her dwellings were gardens filled with golden flowers, though Vána often came to the forests of Oromë. Like her sister, Vána had great control over life, and the growing things of the world was a lover of nature and life. Vána has...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Yavanna

Yavanna, beginning in the midst of the Years of the Lamps, during the Spring of Arda, planted and grew the first living things within the world (Trees and plants). These things she she had long prepared for and, at first, just as every other thing in the world that the Valar had nurtured and...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[ADG99]

I assume so?

DDM said "it was fine" by them, which I'm assuming to be about the last post which was 1-A, possibly High 1-A+
Finepoint went for "1-A, Possibly High 1-A+"
And Elizha said High 1-A+ was fine.

I believe we still need a justification written up.

Is the below text alright to apply?

Outerverse level (The Ainur in their origin are residents of the "primary creation", with the difference between a primary and a secondary world being described as the difference between reality and "myth and fairy-story". In this state, they resided in a world of purely will and awareness outside the space-time of Eä once it was created, with the Ainur being described as beyond the bounds and limits of time and space), possibly High Outerverse level+ (Sub-creators, the creators of stories and myth within the Primary Reality, are described as possessing "no bounds, but the laws of contradiction" in their capacity as "writers". As the "highest created beings" created by Eru, the Ainur are potentially similar existences to these sub-creators, with the Ainur possessing "special 'sub-creative' powers" as Eru grants them certainty that their creations are given reality, unlike the writers who do not possess this certainty)

Below are all the pages that needs unlocking

Saruman

Saruman is the fallen White Wizard and one of the Istari, five Maiar who came to Arda in the forms of old men to help in the conflict against Sauron. Eventually, Saruman allied himself with Sauron, hoping to betray him once he had learned his weakness so he could establish himself as ruler of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Sauron

Sauron (or Þauron (Thauron); Quenya; IPA: [ˈsaʊron] or Vanyarin; IPA: [ˈθaʊron] - "The Abhorred"), the eponymous Lord of the Rings, was a fallen Maia, the creator of the One Ring, and the most trusted lieutenant of his master Melkor (Morgoth, the first Dark Lord). After Melkor's defeat in the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Morgoth

Morgoth, (Sindarin for "Dark Tyrant" or the "Dark Foe"), originally known as Melkor (Quenya for "He who arises in might"), is the primary antagonist of The Silmarillion. He was once the greatest of the Ainur, servants and creations of the Creator, Eru Ilúvatar, before becoming the first Dark...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Balrogs (Lord of the Rings)

Balrogs, or Balrogath ("Balrog-kind"), were Maiar corrupted by Morgoth either before or after the creation of Arda. The Balrogs are great fire spirits, who cloak themselves in shadow and flame and carry whips and swords. Famed Balrogs include Gothmog, slain by Ecthelion, and Durin's Bane, slain...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Gothmog (Balrog)

Gothmog was the Lord of the Balrogs during the First Age and was the greatest Balrog ever to walk Middle-earth. He was the High Captain of Angband, one of Morgoth's most trusted generals, leading the Dark Lord's forces to victory in countless Battles. His only possible superior in rank was...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Arien

Arien was originally a spirit of fire whom Melkor failed to corrupt. In the days of the Two Trees, Arien was a Maia maiden who tended to the golden flowers in the gardens of Vána. She would water the flowers of Vána with dew gathered from the golden tree Laurelin. After the destruction of the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Ilmarë

Ilmarë is the handmaid of Varda. She is chief among the Maiar, being described as a peer to Eonwe. Ilmarë is the Quenya world for starlight and is derived from Ilma. Christopher Tolkien has noted that Ilmarë is related to such words as Ilmen and Ilmarin. Tier: High 3-A | 1-A, possibly High 1-A...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Melian

Before her entrance to Middle-Earth, Melian the Maia was a servant of both Vana and Este, and lived in Lorien (Irmo's realm), where she tended the trees that grew in the gardens. She was the wisest, most beautiful, and most skillful Maia spirit of Lorien, as well as an incomparable singer - even...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Ossë

Ossë (From the Valarin Ošošai, Oššai) is a fictional character in the works of J. R. R. Tolkien. He is introduced in The Silmarillion as an angelic being known as a Maia, associated with Ulmo, one of the Valar. A spirit of the sea in the service of Ulmo, Ossë guarded the waters around...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Tilion

Tilion was a Maia who guided the Moon. In the days of the trees in Valinor, Tilion had been a hunter from the company of Oromë. Though he often rode with Oromë, he spent much of his free time in Lórien, under the light of Telperion. Tilion loved silver (he even used a silver bow), and he begged...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Eönwë

Eönwë is the banner-bearer and herald of Manwë, the Elder King of Arda. Described as chief among the Maiar loyal to the Valar alongside Ilmarë, Eönwë is one of the greatest of his kind, with his might in arms being surpassed by none in Arda. In the War of Wrath against Morgoth, Eönwë led the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Aulë

Aulë was a smith and worker of the world, and as such he was among the Valar most similar in thought and powers to Melkor, in that they each glorified the fashioning of artful and original things. Both also had the desire and power to create beings of their own, albeit soulless ones. But while...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Estë

Estë was the grey-clad wife of Irmo, Vala of "Visions, dreams, and desires." She lived with her husband in their gardens, the famous Gardens of Lórien. She was said not to walk by day but instead slept upon an island in the midst of the tree-shadowed Lake of Lórellin in Lórien. All the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Irmo

Irmo (Who's true name was Lórien) was the brother of Námo/Mandos, who, together with Nienna were known as the Fëanturi, the "Masters of Spirits." Irmo himself was the "Master of Visions, Dreams, and Desires." His wife Estë the Gentle lived with him in Lórien (A place named after him). The...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Mandos

Mandos (Whose true name was Namo) is the brother of Irmo (Lórien) and Nienna. The three of them are the Fëanturi, the Masters of Spirits. His wife was Vaire the Weaver. After the captivity of Melkor, Mandos pronounced his Doom: He was to spend three Ages under the duress of Mandos, guarded by...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Manwë

Manwë is the Elder King of Arda and brethren to Melkor in the mind of Eru Ilúvatar. He is said to be the one that best understands the will and designs of Eru, and acted as the chief instrument against Melkor's discourse during the second theme of the Ainulindalë, the Great Music. Manwë would...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Nessa (The Silmarilion)

Nessa, whose name means, "Young," is one of the Ainur, and a Vala who is known for her great speed and agility, being able to outrun the deer that chase her and her love of dancing in the ever-green fields of Aman. Childlike, innocent and forever young, she is the wife of Tulkas and sister of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Nienna

Nienna was the Vala of mourning, and she pitied the suffering of others and the wounds of Arda, especially its marring by Melkor. However, it is said the lesson of Nienna is not of endless grief, but rather of pity, hope, and the endurance of the spirit. Nienna was one of Fëanturi and dwelt in...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Oromë

Oromë was a mighty lord and a great huntsman, and he would often train his servants in the Maiar and beasts how to pursue the evil creatures of Melkor. He adored the lands of Middle-earth so greatly that he was initially unwilling to leave it. He is contrasted against Tulkas in demeanor: Whereas...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Tulkas

Tulkas first appeared during the First War. Having heard of his fellow Ainur's struggle against Melkor, Tulkas was the last of the Valar to descend upon Arda, thus tipping the scales of the battle against Melkor enough to drive him from Arda. Melkor fled before him, and the Spring of Arda was...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Ulmo

Ulmo rarely came to the Councils of Máhanaxar, and only when in great need. He preferred to stay in Arda, albeit not by walking on the land, as his form was terrible and would fill any Man or Elf with great dread. All waters were under his authority: Bays, rivers and even the waters deep under...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Varda

Varda was the queen of the stars and the most beautiful of all the Valar and Valier. She was so beautiful her beauty was said to be beyond the description of Men and Elves, and her face radiates with the light of Eru Ilúvatar. Unsurprisingly, it was said that "in light is her power and her joy."...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Vairë

Vairë is one of the Valier, the Queens of the Valar. Though not as great in power or prestige as the likes of Varda or Yavanna, she is still stronger than the likes of Nessa. Her "storied webs," a record of the history of Arda (And possibly Eä), cover the interior of the Halls of Mandos, where...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Vána

Vána is the younger sister of Yavanna and the wife of Oromë. In her dwellings were gardens filled with golden flowers, though Vána often came to the forests of Oromë. Like her sister, Vána had great control over life, and the growing things of the world was a lover of nature and life. Vána has...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Yavanna

Yavanna, beginning in the midst of the Years of the Lamps, during the Spring of Arda, planted and grew the first living things within the world (Trees and plants). These things she she had long prepared for and, at first, just as every other thing in the world that the Valar had nurtured and...

vsbattles.fandom.com

What about Gandalf?