Muzan Kibutsuji (King of Demons) Vs Ken Kaneki (King of Ghouls) (Demon Slayer Vs Tokyo Ghoul) [14-4-3]

[Anonymous_Learner]

interesting.
gonna go Muzan fra

 

[Catbowtie]

Nao, nao.

If you saw the manga then you know they took him to the air and there they formed a sort of cocoon in which they were devouring him, he goes Kakuja and nukes everything and when he falls all of that is completely gone.

Kaneki was in the air when he performed the feat, and falls an unknown distance towards the ground, then walks an unknown distance towards the Dragon itself. We don't see the Kakuja at all, it just cuts to the aftermath. We don't know the damage that was done to them.

I mean... The Hashira all were BFR'd by opening a door/trap below them which gives ample time to Kaneki to realize what's going on and maneuver around it for as long as possible.

IDK how canon the movie is nor do I really care but if the whole "omnidirectional BFR portal" is actually a thing then they can get Kaneki in there eventually but by the time that happens Kaneki has had enough time to play with Muzan or whoever is outside.

Yes, omni-directional BFR portal is a thing Nakime can do. I assume you concede on the point that Kaneki will be placed into the Infinity Castle?

1) If Muzan starts alone then Kaneki will just go with his regular Kagune just how he did with Furuta, will likely evade some of the door BFR and annoy the hell out of Muzan. From that point either the "omnidirectional bfr portal" happens and Kaneki gets jumped by the 12 moons alongside Muzan and he gets haxed before he can nuke everything. Sleep hax is the main wincon as that just leaves Kaneki completely defenseless for the rest of haxes or the AP jumping if he hasn't outstated already.

Fair enough. No complaints from this here KNY supporter.

2) Muzan brings the Moons asap which will prompt Kaneki to go Kakuja ending the fight in that instant with the shockwave nuke thing.

I will bring up the fact that not all of the Kizuki will actually be within Kaneki's shockwave range depending on the fight situation. Nakime will be inside of Infinity Castle. Hantengu will be far away. Doma will be outside of the 200 meter range. Muzan will most likely be in Infinity Castle watching the fight. The only real ones at risk here are Kokushibo and Akaza.

And, as I've said before, if the fight's location is outside of the Infinity Castle, Nakime can quickly teleport Kokushibo and Akaza into the Infinity Castle to rescue them, thereby leaving Kaneki completely exhausted and incapable of protecting himself. In addition, if you're not disbelieving, it is completely possible for the Kizuki to out-run the shockwave. Their Travel Speed is Mach 3.53. A shockwave's regular speeds are between Mach 1 and Mach 3.

It is a complete loss situation if Kaneki decides to his nuke shockwave if not all of the Kizuki are in it's radius. Even someone such as Gyokko can finish the job by drowning the powerless Kaneki.

 

[NikHelton]

If the match changed to unequalize speed then Kaneki gets my vote

If speed is equalized then Muzan FRA

Sorry for late response I passed out

Yes, I already said that for more convincing conditions you need to either remove the speed equalization or use the High 7-C key.

Some users are simply sure that Kaneki will not have time to use shockwaves, that they will not be able to destroy the neck, or that he will simply be instantly locked

 

[NikHelton]

This only proves Kaneki's shockwave is dangerous at point blank range. How do you know that the range was 100 meters? Was Kaneki at 7-A at this moment? Or was he High 7-C? I would like to know.

At that moment he reached 7-A

In the two scans, you've posted characters killing nameless, comparatively fodder enemies. Shockwaves are an entirely DC-based ability. I fail to see how this strengthens your point, because these types of abilities can easily be deadly when demonstrated on vastly weaker opponents. I can just as easily post an example of Rui instantly shredding a demon slayer with his threads and calling them "deadly." That does not mean it is deadly to people who are comparable to him.

You misquote me. I am showing you that the attack is equally dangerous for those who are close and those who are farther away.

You've just admitted a Mach 2 Shockwave blitzed a MHS+ character. Again, natural phenomenon like sound cannot go faster than they already are. There is no such thing as "Speed of Light sound," like how there's no such thing as "MHS+ Shockwaves."

It's manga and it happens. No one was surprised when Hantengu's lightning was depicted as fast as the sound wave and when the characters couldn't dodge it.

Nakime doesn't need to use portals. We see that with Muzan. I will repeat my previous justification here:

Kaneki still needs to enter this dimension. No one gets there without going through the transition.

This is not happening due to the fact Kaneki's shockwave has never performed what you claimed previously it has. Therefore, my Inverse Square Law and Energy Dissipation argument is back into play. Doma will casually survive the shockwave due to the power behind said shockwave being drastically weakened the further it travels.

That's exactly how it works and the Dragon's kakuge was also destroyed at a distance of 200 meters

Did you concede that Gyokko can dodge Kaneki's Shockwave AOE? I wanted to make sure so I'm not assuming things.

I'm saying that even if he escapes from the battlefield, Kaneki will destroy the vases anyway. But no, Gyokko won't be able to

Okay. I see. I went to the chapter this was in, and read the previous chapters and the next chapters. Kaneki did not gain a blitz amp here. Instead, what happens is that Kaneki was in a weaker form, and successfully unlocked his full power.

He was at 50% of his full power, and, in the scans Nik has posted, had regained his actual power.

No, his half-kakuja opened an extra kakuhou and he blitz Shinohara

I will say here, that it depends on the AP of shockwave. A simple High 7-C shockwave will not kill the Kizuki. The upmost maximum shockwave would do is fragment their bodies (this is assuming Kaneki does it at point blank range). This is not enough to kill them past High-Mid Regeneration. If the shockwave were to be 7-A, then I concede the Kizuki and Muzan will surely die if they are caught in the immediate origin point.

Fragmentation was in much weaker characters. And even so, with a difference of 8-B and 7-C, only blood will remain from them

This is not a problem. Doma creates more

No, he won't be able to. He will be killed instantly.

Here, I will mention that after Kaneki uses his Shockwave, he will be rendered completely helpless.

Kaneki could not use his Kagune, and was completely incapable of out-running the Dragon's fluid. He nearly drowned because of it, and had to be saved by an ally to survive.

In addition to the shockwave not being spammable, how is Kaneki going to continue to fight after he uses the shockwave? It uses a significant portion of his energy, and it's not guaranteed to kill all of the Kizuki due to the various reasons I have laid out (Nakime teleporting away, Inverse Square Law and Energy Dissipation, and High-Mid Regeneration)

I assume you are referring to Kaneki's shockwave? If so, A High 7-C Shockwave will not kill Akaza as I've said before. But if it's a 7-A shockwave and Nakime, for some reason, is unable to rescue Akaza, then yes, I agree with this point.

It wasn't the shockwave, it was the fact that he was exhausted.

He came out of a multi-day coma, fought a short battle, and almost immediately went to the nest, where he first fought Furuta, and then fought the Dragon for an unknown amount of time.

Shockwaves don't drain stamina

This is missing the full context. Kaneki wasn't being overpowered.

What was happening is Kaneki's head wasn't in the game, and got beat up because of it, and then in the latter last scan you've posted, Kaneki finally resolves to use his strength to win. There was not an amplification Kaneki underwent to become more powerful. Kaneki simply decided to try.

Read the fight again. Kaneki was serious from the start.

Kaneki lost the fight to the kagune and he used the kakuja to gain the advantage.

There are many similar moments in your reasoning where you think Kaneki is holding back, but he is not.

When the attacks in question are effectively instant loss scenarios (Sleep Manipulation, Ice Manipulation, Water Manipulation), it's extremely hard to say that Kaneki could reactively evolve before being killed. Has Kaneki shown to be able rapidly evolve within seconds of getting hurt? Regardless, he needs time to grow in strength, and the Kizuki will simply not allow that due to the fact most abilities they will use will quickly win them the battle.

Kaneki made the jump to 7-A right as he was being chewed up

 

[NikHelton]

Yes, I already said that for more convincing conditions you need to either remove the speed equalization or use the High 7-C key.

Some users are simply sure that Kaneki will not have time to use shockwaves, that they will not be able to destroy the neck, or that he will simply be instantly locked

 

[Rogue_Forge]

Alright I'm gonna unwatch this because Im getting way too many notifications

 

[Gamecooob]

inb4 50 pages all over again, like a certain other thread

 

[Passersby]

genuinely no idea why people are voting for kaneki, even from the arguments i've seen for him people act as if he has infinite free actions, no, this is a 7 vs 1, add doma's clones and it's 11 v 1, they get 11 actions in the time he can make one, said actions involving spamming projectiles ranging from dozens to thousands isn't helping him either

kokushibo spams chaotic little crescent moon like blades always changing in lenght and size with every sword slash of his that can target you from all sides as you're dealing with his attack in the front can create multiple sword slashes/attacks without moving his arms and can create multiple slashes in an instant like this
if he is serious he just spams attacks from long range and has precog,he basically can literally read the exact moment you attempt to do something (reading the exact moment gyomei comes up with a technique ) and attack you right at that moment to disrupt your rythm and tempo and if surrounded can just do this



doma can also create attacks that surround his opponent when fighting in close range or just create ice mist so potent it instantly started to freeze kanao and would have destroyed her eye ball had it made contact with it, said ice mist can also flash freeze water on contact and creates what seems to be thousands of leaf like projectiles that are actually sharp, and to make matters worse he can create ice clones that can spam his bda with an output the same as his, and he can make at least 4 of them (those 3 plus the one prior)

Akaza has his compass needle

basically this thing

• Weakness Detection, Strength Perception, Precognition, Reactive Power Level, Enhanced Instinctive Reaction, Enhanced Awareness & Enhanced Accuracy with Compass Needle (Compass Needle allows him to accurately sense a person's Battle Spirit, allowing him to predict their movements, discern their location in his surroundings (even from his blind-spots), and find and instinctively aim for their weak points and vitals with such high accuracy that his attacks are described as "being attracted by magnets" and "clinging" to his opponents. Can tell someone's strength just by looking at them, was able to discern that Kyojuro was a Hashira at a glance. Can instinctively respond to attacks with an appropriate counter, was stated by Giyu to learn to anticipate his every move and strike back with equal accuracy as the fight went on. He can effectively fight and discern his surroundings and track his opponents without a head (deaf and blind) solely through detecting Battle Spirit)

and even if you think you blocked his attacks, you really didn't

and while he also can spam stuff as well, he likes close quarters combat more, he kills you later with 100 omnidirectional attacks surrounding you from all sides


zohakutten also stays far away and spams lightning bolts and soundwaves...that's it, he just stands on wooden dragons and keeps spamming attacks

upper 5 also has danmaku shenannigans, well, he has 2, he can throw a thousand poisonous needles and his biggest one, about 10 thousand fish that can actually eat you alive (fish you can't cut otherwise the poison inside them will get to you upon contact) can teleport between vases, has a "Final form" with unpredictable movements and can turn anything his fists touches to fish, and can trap you in a water prison



by this point you get it, he is not keeping up or reaction to all the attaks being spammed and thrown at him wihout literally being overwhelmed to oblivion, hell, each uppermoom indvidually would be a hard battle, some even can even win on their own, let alone all of them

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

genuinely no idea why people are voting for kaneki

First action Muzan has to do is summon all the moons, and that if he decides is worth the possible cost investment


So there are not 7 actions done in the first second of the fight

 

[NikHelton]

Well, I'll probably do a rematch later without the speed equal

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Also because I literally read Muzan profile right now

I don't think he should have ALL the moons available, what I mean is that is completely absurd to say he can summon 3 different moon 6 and 2 different moon 4 at the same time, if I am correct, the different moons is because they literally died, in the story, so how is he gonna summon a guy that should be dead when another is his replacement?

And the lower moons are fodder, Kaneki instakills them, I will not say anything, I even think Muzan with the upper moons (Only 6) should win but adding even more is literally unfair and impossible by lore

 

[Machmatej]

Also because I literally read Muzan profile right now

I don't think he should have ALL the moons available, what I mean is that is completely absurd to say he can summon 3 different moon 6 and 2 different moon 4 at the same time, if I am correct, the different moons is because they literally died, in the story, so how is he gonna summon a guy that should be dead when another is his replacement?

And the lower moons are fodder, Kaneki instakills them, I will not say anything, I even think Muzan with the upper moons (Only 6) should win but adding even more is literally unfair and impossible by lore

It doesn't really matter. Hantengu and Nakime were around at the same time, even before Nakime was considered an Upper Moon. Gyutaro and Daki shared their spot as Upper 6, but even if you want to remove them and Kaigaku altogether the results will be the same. The other moons can do everything those three can do and better. And aside from Enmu, the lower moons are non-factors here anyway.

 

[Shadowslash125]

I don't think he should have ALL the moons available, what I mean is that is completely absurd to say he can summon 3 different moon 6 and 2 different moon 4 at the same time, if I am correct, the different moons is because they literally died, in the story, so how is he gonna summon a guy that should be dead when another is his replacement?

Yea, the standard equipment section for Muzan needs to be more elaborate on the moons thanks to the fact that there are replacement moons in his arsenal. Even the Nagato page takes into account the change in the six paths of pain, and even then the abilities remain the same; just that the animal path is with another body.

 

[Machmatej]

Btw Enmu's sleep hax doesnt have a travel speed. All Kaneki has to do is look at Enmu’s eyes that has the word Dream for it to activate. (If Enmu actually pulls this off)

Enmu can also just say "Go to sleep" and put them down too.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Gyutaro and Daki

I forgot this, those 2 are valid in my eyes

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Well, I'll probably do a rematch later without the speed equal

If you do actually do a rematch. Please make him start at 600 kilotons rather than unequal speed because that’s an horrendous blitz stomp. Itll be Yoriichi Vs Muzan all over again and I couldn’t equalize speed for that match because yoriichi would get stomped. I had to give Muzan like 50 different advantages in order for Yoriichi to just not blitz stomp every single demon in that Fortress. It’ll be exactly that but Yoriichi on steroids.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Also is there genuinely no other feat from KNY that we can calc to escape the season 3 Mach 2200 scaling for IF characters

 

[Shadowslash125]

Also what the **** is an Obi?

 

[Machmatej]

Also what the **** is an Obi?

A belt.

 

[Machmatej]

Also is there genuinely no other feat from KNY that we can calc to escape the season 3 Mach 2200 scaling for IF characters

there are, but either outliers or anime/movie only

 

[NikHelton]

If you do actually do a rematch. Please make him start at 600 kilotons rather than unequal speed because that’s an horrendous blitz stomp. Itll be Yoriichi Vs Muzan all over again and I couldn’t equalize speed for that match because yoriichi would get stomped. I had to give Muzan like 50 different advantages in order for Yoriichi to just not blitz stomp every single demon in that Fortress. It’ll be exactly that but Yoriichi on steroids.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

there are, but either outliers or anime/movie only

Ftl Tengen and MFTL mitsuri using snail speed is some cap bro

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Also because I literally read Muzan profile right now

I don't think he should have ALL the moons available, what I mean is that is completely absurd to say he can summon 3 different moon 6 and 2 different moon 4 at the same time, if I am correct, the different moons is because they literally died, in the story, so how is he gonna summon a guy that should be dead when another is his replacement?

Yea, the standard equipment section for Muzan needs to be more elaborate on the moons thanks to the fact that there are replacement moons in his arsenal. Even the Nagato page takes into account the change in the six paths of pain, and even then the abilities remain the same; just that the animal path is with another body.

Muzan’s profile already does take into count the duplicate upper moons. His standard equipment is currently the main twelve kizuki from beginning of the series. Kaigaku and Hairo are optional equipments. Using kaigaku would replace gyutaro and daki while using hairo replaces enmu and rui

 

[Machmatej]

Ftl Tengen and MFTL mitsuri using snail speed is some cap bro

Wasn't referring to those.
In season 2, Daki's attacks were able to cover a huge chunk of the district in an instant, and Zenitsu was able to push Tanjiro out of the way, It was around Mach 7000-8000
In season 3, Tanjiro pushed Genya away while dodging lightning, and what could possibly be the return stroke of a lightning bolt (An easy MHS+ to Sub-Relativistic feat btw)
In the infinity castle, Tanjiro with the STW was able to perceive Akaza and his shockwaves as if they were frozen, and since shockwaves move up to Mach 2, it's another possible Sub-Relativistic to Relativistc feat of perception speed, which is supported by Kanao doing the same to Doma.

 

[NikHelton]

If you do actually do a rematch. Please make him start at 600 kilotons rather than unequal speed because that’s an horrendous blitz stomp. Itll be Yoriichi Vs Muzan all over again and I couldn’t equalize speed for that match because yoriichi would get stomped. I had to give Muzan like 50 different advantages in order for Yoriichi to just not blitz stomp every single demon in that Fortress. It’ll be exactly that but Yoriichi on steroids.

I don't really understand why in the Yoriichi matchup Muzan and Kizuki were in character so they didn't attack 11v1 and that Nakime didn't lock Yoriichi in Infinity Lock, but in this matchup Kizuki shows her true potential and Nakime is now "unbound by the plot".

I'm not sure about the speed, because I understand your thinking, but several users have already said that Kaneki won't be able to handle 11 opponents if they attack him at the same time and considering that they actually have ways to instantly kill him if they work together.

I might not even out the speed, but I'll make everyone bloodlest so they're aimed for a quick kill. This could be a problem for AD in some scenarios

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Nakime is still part of the standard equipment despite hantengu occupying upper 4 because her status doesn’t really change anything and she’s been a demon/had the fortress even before becoming an upper moon 4 replacement

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Muzan’s profile already does take into count the duplicate upper moons. His standard equipment is currently the main twelve kizuki from beginning of the series. Kaigaku and Hairo are optional equipments. Using kaigaku would replace gyutaro and daki while using hairo replaces enmu and rui

Ok, so no one argued about him summoning all? Because one said "13 vs 1 " but literally the lower moons are fodder and not even in his profile because Muzan killed like 5 of them

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Ok, so no one argued about him summoning all? Because one said "13 vs 1 " but literally the lower moons are fodder and not even in his profile because Muzan killed like 5 of them

Because no one here is unironically arguing the bum lower moons who don’t even have a known BDA. Douma himself can clone himself 6 times with the same strength. That’s where that comes from

 

[Passersby]

So there are not 7 actions done in the first second of the fight

fair

also just in case if you're reffering to me about the 13 v 1 thing i said, i said it's an 11v1 when adding doma's clones

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

If anyones wondering what his full army is without the optional equipment, its
Kokushibo, Douma, Douma Clone 1, Douma Clone 2, Douma Clone 3, Douma Clone 4, Douma Clone 5, Douma Clone 6, Akaza, Nakime, Hantengu, Sekido, Karaku, Aizetsu, Urami, Urogi, Zohakuten, Gyoko, Gyutaro, Daki, Enmu, Rui, Lower Moon 2, Lower Moon 3, Lower Moon 4, Lower Moon 6, Susumaru, Yahaba


Also if Kaneki does get it by Enmu's sleep dream hax. What do yall think Kaneki would be dreaming of.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

I don't really understand why in the Yoriichi matchup Muzan and Kizuki were in character so they didn't attack 11v1 and that Nakime didn't lock Yoriichi in Infinity Lock, but in this matchup Kizuki shows her true potential and Nakime is now "unbound by the plot".

No. The kizuki were all trying to jump Yoriichi. Its just that due to unequal speed. Yoriichi straight up just did what this fan manga did



If it was equal speed then Yoriichi wouldve gotten no diffed lol

 

[NikHelton]

If it was equal speed then Yoriichi wouldve gotten no diffed lol

I'm not sure that with the equal speed the victory would have come to him so easily.

 

[NikHelton]

Maybe I misunderstood the KNY supporters, but either they are biased towards Yoriichi or Kaneki.

For some reason, in Yoriichi's case, he will catch Nakime sooner or later, and the fact that he totally blitzes everyone is not a problem. However, in the arguments against Kaneki, Nakime will hide from him in an infinite castle, the superiority in speed is unfair

 

[Machmatej]

Maybe I misunderstood the KNY supporters, but either they are biased towards Yoriichi or Kaneki.

For some reason, in Yoriichi's case, he will catch Nakime sooner or later, and the fact that he totally blitzes everyone is not a problem. However, in the arguments against Kaneki, Nakime will hide from him in an infinite castle, the superiority in speed is unfair

Yoriichi just doesn't have a win condition when speed is equalized. no speed amps, no hax, no anything.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Yoriichi just doesn't have a win condition when speed is equalized. no speed amps, no hax, no anything.

Yeah Yoriichi wouldve gotten stomped in like the first 5-10 seconds. Muzan had to get 50 different artificial advantages in order to counteract the blitz in unequal speed. The only reason why it wasnt a blitz stomp against Muzan is because people keep arguing Nakime will put him into an infinite fall loop

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

God damnit. I wanted to make a Kokushibo Vs Arima fight but he doesn't resist battle spirit

 

[Machmatej]

Yeah Yoriichi wouldve gotten stomped in like the first 5-10 seconds. Muzan had to get 50 different artificial advantages in order to counteract the blitz in unequal speed. The only reason why it wasnt a blitz stomp against Muzan is because people keep arguing Nakime will put him into an infinite fall loop

What people bro it was just me

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

What people bro it was just me

Oh. I couldnt participate in that but I remember that being an argument.

Also to emphasize why yoriichi wouldve gotten stomped. If you were to do Tanjiro Vs Yoriichi equal speed then Tanjiro would unironically blitz

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

what about tanjiro vs yoriichi speed unequal

Make that a match and im adding it to your list of stomp matches

 

[NikHelton]

God damnit. I wanted to make a Kokushibo Vs Arima fight but he doesn't resist battle spirit

Arima has no reliable way to kill Kokushibo.

However, it scales to its own fear hax and resists Kaneki's fear hax.

The match can take place, but the only thing that can help Arima kill Kokushibo is Narukami, which is stated to be especially effective against ghouls with High-Mid regen.