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Clarifications About the Godzilla Singular Point Novelization

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Back home and have a bit of time to properly reply, so I'll try to be thorough.
If it has direct anti-feats or if the explanations waving them away are poor, then it's just not considered 1-A even for singular or minor showings as determined by the original Tier 1/0 staff revision threads. There are a lot of verses that don't get a ≥1-A rating for just one anti-feat that can't be handwaved as an example, which is why the majority of Author self-insert characters are stuck on lower levels. Ultimately, despite the points that Azathoth puts forth, I don't think they sufficiently explain away the interpretations Arceus gives, such as IT's state of reality with the Kumongas and the line between creatures and IT, which puts it more of a quantitative difference rather than a qualitative one.
My issue here is that, as I suggested before, these are really only anything resembling anti-feats if you ignore the surrounding context.

As stated prior, "It" is not a name reserved for the true, transcendental entity. It is also used to describe the physical manifestation that is Godzilla. This is inarguably a thing that occurs, such as in the passage I posted prior where "It" is very clearly Godzilla Amphibia.
  • "There is only the figure of It that continues to swim, and its companions anxiously move away from it. Unable to comprehend what was happening to him, this brave but foolish individual continued his futile assault but suddenly realized that the "it" swimming in front of him could not possibly be the "it" that he had jumped on in the first place. The length of the creature had now surpassed that of this one, its skin had changed, and its back was now lined with intricate, plate-like fins. The brave individual finally attempted to break free from it, but there was no time left for him to understand when the huge mouth with its many vertical rows of teeth had opened in front of him." (blog translation)
This is extremely important, because it means we cannot take every example of "It" as meaning "the complete entity from the prologue". Especially since two passages that have been brought up most consistently as potential anti-feats almost certainly are not describing the true entity.

The first:
  • "As they began to take for granted not only the archetypes that sprang endlessly from "it" or the singularity, but also the materials of this world, they were surrounded by materials to regenerate and build their bodies." (blog translation)
This is blatantly describing Godzilla, the physical creature. It is a major plot point of both the show and novel that Godzilla, the giant monster, constantly produces archetype in the form of red dust. This is the exact reason he's always surrounded by it.

The second:
  • "At the center of this disturbance is a silvery drive called the Jet Jaguar. In their eyes, the Jet Jaguar, like "It," appears to be a node, an accumulation point for lines of force. There exists a different information network, they realized, which is also covering the earth." (blog translation)
This one is also almost certainly describing Godzilla. While not as obvious from the quote alone, it's made much more clear in one of the last chapters.
  • "Godzilla is an entity capable of carving out his own future. Born as a bubble-like void on the ocean floor, he formed a small body, rewriting the surrounding environment, utilizing knowledge of the existing metabolic system, remaking it into something more efficient, and weaving together molecular arrangements that the beings of this universe could never have imagined. He changed form after form, determined the future he was heading for, and walked boldly through the center of that determined future. He was led to Tokyo by disturbance.
  • It seemed like a mere stumbling block of thought, a clouding of the senses, a slowing of reactions, but it was clear to him that such things did not exist. This disturbance made Godzilla's future unclear, and he was still trying to piece together the thin thread that would lead to his demise.
  • The source of that disturbance was now right before his eyes. Of course, the person in question could not have been aware of this, as it was the kind of logic that could only be sensed by looking at it from a bird's-eye view of the whole, a single point where a network of tiny casual connections converged. Although it was a fragile structure, it was a web that could not be severed by simply eliminating one possibility. When a certain possibility was eliminated, causality, which had previously turned a blind eye, began to join in the work of supporting that path. Those who manipulated countless pieces of information supported the web.
  • Godzilla has come to the heart of Tokyo in search of that knot in the web of causality. Godzilla finally understood that Yun Arikawa, who was there now, was one of the nodes that would cause the entire web to unravel if removed. The other node, Kamino, was located underground in Ubara, next to Shiva, which was part of Godzilla's organs, and so the fact that Godzilla and Yun were glaring at each other corresponded to Kamino and Yun being two nodes next to each other. This place, at this moment, must have been the 'place where the nodes gather together' that would cut the web." (personal book translation)
This gathering of Godzilla, Yun, Mei, Jet Jaguar, and Pero II is stated to be the moment these nodes in causality all gathered together. It also wouldn't actually make any sense if the entity's true form was supposed to be this node in causality instead, as not only does it not directly correspond to the events occurring like Godzilla does, but it's also described in the prologue as existing in a state where all possibilities of its past and future are its present, which are just "a collection of all kinds of dreams" to it. There is no reason to assume "It" was referring to the dreaming entity when the Godzilla manifested within the universe is the one actively attempting to manipulate the web of causality and determine a specific future.
The dreams statement is the strongest evidence for 1-A (or High 1-A if you assume an infinite amount of recursive dreams that IT stands beyond), but if that can be sufficiently explained as being viewpoints of lesser imitations, then I don't see the reason for it to be rated that higher. Additionally, just the focus the work puts on higher-dimensional existence makes it seem weird to me that we're going for a metaphorical interpretation of the cosmology rather than a literal one based on what we're told.
This is an odd conclusion to me, because personally I think the focus put on higher-dimensional existence and actual mathematics should make the entity's transcendent state more likely, not less. Singular Point spends so much time going into these bizarre higher dimensional mathematics, the ability of the Orthogonal Diagonalizer to manipulate these dimensions, and the impossible computational power of SHIVA, only for the results reached through actual logic and mathematics to be this:
  • "'The parameters,' says the Pero II inside me, 'are the parameters of the orthogonal diagonalizer to annihilate the hyper-time calculator, the singularity, and Godzilla.'
  • I finally understand what that exact statement means, what it means when no conclusion is presented.
  • 'It didn't exist,' the Pero II inside me said apologetically. 'You can't find something that doesn't exist.'" (personal book translation)
While it no longer granted a "transcendental perspective" after Godzilla disappears, Pero III shares this same sentiment and treats Godzilla's defeat as more of a literal miracle than something that was legitimately possible through science, higher-dimensional computation or not.
  • "Of course, this is just my own dream, not even a theory. The reality that emerged in Tokyo was probably even more extraordinary. It's possible that Godzilla was defeated in a way that didn't exist. I truly believe so."
Just because higher dimensions are heavily discussed and play an important role within the work does not mean the dreaming entity must be bound by them, especially when there is evidence to suggest that it isn't.
The tree being able to breach into the normal universe while being connected to the main branches also leads me to view it as an anti-feat along with how the orthogonal diagonalizer managed to drive it away.
This misses a bit of context. We are told how the Orthogonal Diagonalizer would potentially banish the singularity, and despite its ability to manipulate higher-dimensional particles, it's not through directly interacting with it.
  • Here's BB's take on the latter: The singularity forms a shell around itself, made of archetypes, like an oyster shell. This shell is a necessary mirror that keeps the singularity connected to the world, and if it can be broken down,
  • 'The singularity will go home on its own.'
  • That seems to be the case." (personal book translation)
Even then, the answer to actually achieving this was deemed to be something that didn't exist, and that was with higher-dimensional computation.

Also, not really sure how much we can use the idea of it "breaching" the normal universe with its "branches" as an anti-feat when the comparison to a tree is specifically an analogy. I don't even know how much it would matter anyway, since the epilogue makes it pretty clear the protagonists don't even feel as though Godzilla was defeated, but instead simply disappeared.
  • "The four new stones lined up, from the right, are Rodan, Anguirus, and Kumonga. Rodan was the one that fought first, and it is unclear how many of Kumonga he defeated, so they are all lumped together and considered one pillar.
  • 'They're probably a collective consciousness or something.'
  • There is a compromise in that area.
  • I wondered whether to place a gravestone for Godzilla, but I decided that it was not something I should be offering a memorial for. With other monsters, I have a sense of having defeated them, but with Godzilla, it feels more real to say that he simply disappeared." (personal book translation)
Fittingly, both the prologue and epilogue seem to reiterate the point that the true Godzilla was not really harmed or affected by the events of the story in any way, which ties into the idea of it experiencing reality (and the events of Singular Point as a whole) as a series of dreams.
I understand the want for a "possibly 1-A" rating, but in my view, that's more of a concession rather than being entirely honest. My choice would be to keep the profiles as they currently are. So you can list me as disagreeing currently. Or if barring that, as in the upgrade is accepted on some level, then my preferred option would be "possibly 1-A" rather than a straight tier change.
Fully disagree with "possibly 1-A" being some sort of concession for the reasons I've already given, primarily because the true Godzilla's current scale comes solely from things that are demonstrably below it. While it can absolutely be argued whether the difference between it and these things is qualitative or quantitative, I think it's less accurate for us to act as though that debate doesn't exist at all.

However, while I'm more inclined towards 1-A than 1-B personally, I do want to reiterate that I don't actually have any opposition to "possibly 1-A", as it still acknowledges the arguments for the entity's transcendence.
 
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My issue here is that, as I suggested before, these are really only anything resembling anti-feats if you ignore the surrounding context.
I don't see how its ignoring the surrounding context at all. They use particles to beat it back; any amount of interaction between lower and higher quality beings without a sufficient handwave is an automatic dismissal for the rating.
While it can absolutely be argued whether the difference between it and these things is qualitative or quantitative, I think it's less accurate for us to act as though that debate doesn't exist at all.
I disagree, in my viewpoint the lower showings themselves are enough to dismiss it and having that level of interaction at all serves as an anti-feat.

But I'm fine with possibly 1-A., You did raise a lot of good points that I initially overlooked or didn't take seriously enough.
 
I don't see how its ignoring the surrounding context at all. They use particles to beat it back; any amount of interaction between lower and higher quality beings without a sufficient handwave is an automatic dismissal for the rating.
To be fair the particles are made by "It" but aren't directly tied to it. They are used to anchor the singular point rather than "It" itself. It is the nature of the connection between the Singular Point and "It" that makes me doubt a full rating.
But I'm fine with possibly 1-A., You did raise a lot of good points that I initially overlooked or didn't take seriously enough.
Considering this in, if Firestorm and DDM don't mind it (once they hopefully reply) we should be good with 1-B, possibly 1-A.
 
Arceus addressed what I was going to say about the OD, but yeah it’s not really a major point of contention.

With the other changes I proposed before and the most complex one being heavily discussed, I’m assuming we’re generally feeling that the following changes are agreeable?

  • “At least 1-B” durability specifically for the singularity organ/core of the physical Godzilla avatars.
  • “At least 1-B” in general for the Omega Point due to its transcendence of the regular singularities.
  • “At least 1-B, possibly 1-A” for the entity’s true form.
 
Arceus addressed what I was going to say about the OD, but yeah it’s not really a major point of contention.

With the other changes I proposed before and the most complex one being heavily discussed, I’m assuming we’re generally feeling that the following changes are agreeable?

  • “At least 1-B” durability specifically for the singularity organ/core of the physical Godzilla avatars.
  • “At least 1-B” in general for the Omega Point due to its transcendence of the regular singularities.
  • “At least 1-B, possibly 1-A” for the entity’s true form.
ye i'm feeling that one.
 
Arceus addressed what I was going to say about the OD, but yeah it’s not really a major point of contention.

With the other changes I proposed before and the most complex one being heavily discussed, I’m assuming we’re generally feeling that the following changes are agreeable?

  • “At least 1-B” durability specifically for the singularity organ/core of the physical Godzilla avatars.
  • “At least 1-B” in general for the Omega Point due to its transcendence of the regular singularities.
  • “At least 1-B, possibly 1-A” for the entity’s true form.
I agree with this. (y)
 
Btw we never did discuss the powers.
If he gets a possibly 1-A i think he gets BDE type 2 and Aca type 5
The Countless-D abilities "It" has, that is causality manipulation, absorption and mind manipulation - I think causality hax should stay as 1-B since it was done do countless-D creatures rather than the actual 1-A "It", the rest should be 1-A since that was done do entities on the same level as "It".

I'll handle the Omega Point abilities in a separate CRT


Could you please clarify what abilities 1-A entails and whether you're fine with the changes to the existing abilities above?
 
I don't see how its ignoring the surrounding context at all. They use particles to beat it back; any amount of interaction between lower and higher quality beings without a sufficient handwave is an automatic dismissal for the rating.
From what I read in the thread, these higher dimensional particle could not affect the singularity.

@Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot

Was this not the case?
 
From what I read in the thread, these higher dimensional particle could not affect the singularity.

@Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot

Was this not the case?
They did technically affect it. They anchored it to the universe and without them it disconnected from it. It's why I'm saying possibly is better since it's dubious what type of connection the singular point and IT have.
 
They did technically affect it. They anchored it to the universe and without them it disconnected from it. It's why I'm saying possibly is better since it's dubious what type of connection the singular point and IT have.
To reiterate, the Singularity and IT are two separate entities.

If they are, are they from different "realms", so to speak?
 
To reiterate, the Singularity and IT are two separate entities.
The singular point is a very confusing that is basically a "hole" into the universe, an "egg" of sorts and also a branch lowered from "It". It's less of an entity and more of a point of connection between "It" and the physical Godzilla body. Think of it as IT is a player, the SP is the program that connects the player to the player character - Godzilla.
If they are, are they from different "realms", so to speak?
That's what makes it dubious. We don't know if they are really in the same realm. We are told metaphorically that the universe is like a tv program and the singular point is a hole in the screen given from outside. It's also compared to a branch from "It". We're never really told the full difference between them. We do know that the physical body - Godzilla, controlled directly by IT, would eventually surpass the singular point and go beyond the universe. Since IT still controls Godzilla and should be above it, we do know that IT has a superiority over the Singular point. The question is - what level of superiority. We know that to "It" the Godzilla body and operating it is like entering a dream, but there are some questionable things I mentioned earlier.

Sue to how dubious things are we're suggesting that a possibly rating would be better.
 
The singular point is a very confusing that is basically a "hole" into the universe, an "egg" of sorts and also a branch lowered from "It". It's less of an entity and more of a point of connection between "It" and the physical Godzilla body. Think of it as IT is a player, the SP is the program that connects the player to the player character - Godzilla.

That's what makes it dubious. We don't know if they are really in the same realm. We are told metaphorically that the universe is like a tv program and the singular point is a hole in the screen given from outside. It's also compared to a branch from "It". We're never really told the full difference between them. We do know that the physical body - Godzilla, controlled directly by IT, would eventually surpass the singular point and go beyond the universe. Since IT still controls Godzilla and should be above it, we do know that IT has a superiority over the Singular point. The question is - what level of superiority. We know that to "It" the Godzilla body and operating it is like entering a dream, but there are some questionable things I mentioned earlier.

Sue to how dubious things are we're suggesting that a possibly rating would be better.
To reitterate, this higher being initiated contact with the lower world. An avatar/emanation was used, allowing the the higher entity to interact with the lower world.

Would you say that the singularity was created by IT so it could do all the lower world interactions with its new avatar/emanations?
 
To reitterate, this higher being initiated contact with the lower world. An avatar/emanation was used, allowing the the higher entity to interact with the lower world.

Would you say that the singularity was created by IT so it could do all the lower world interactions with its new avatar/emanations?
Yes
 
So, in turn, any particles interacting with the Singularity would have no bearing on IT. as the Singularity was specifically made to interact with the lower world.
Yup. I don't think that's as much of an issue.
The reason why I have issues with it in the first place are summarized here in this message.

If it hadn't been for that the profile would've been 1-A ages ago.
 
What has changed since I last posted?
This.

Arceus addressed what I was going to say about the OD, but yeah it’s not really a major point of contention.

With the other changes I proposed before and the most complex one being heavily discussed, I’m assuming we’re generally feeling that the following changes are agreeable?

  • “At least 1-B” durability specifically for the singularity organ/core of the physical Godzilla avatars.
  • “At least 1-B” in general for the Omega Point due to its transcendence of the regular singularities.
  • “At least 1-B, possibly 1-A” for the entity’s true form.
 
Arceus addressed what I was going to say about the OD, but yeah it’s not really a major point of contention.

With the other changes I proposed before and the most complex one being heavily discussed, I’m assuming we’re generally feeling that the following changes are agreeable?

  • “At least 1-B” durability specifically for the singularity organ/core of the physical Godzilla avatars.
  • “At least 1-B” in general for the Omega Point due to its transcendence of the regular singularities.
  • “At least 1-B, possibly 1-A” for the entity’s true form.
Looks good to me.
 
the concerns regarding the interactions of the particles and the Singularity?
Azathoth's follow up post mostly addressed it, which is why I changed my mind with the possibly rating.
 
So overall
DDM and Qawsdef agree on a possibly 1-A, Firestorm is more for 1-A straight up, glass is neutral.

I think going for the possibly 1-A would be a healthy compromise.

Azathoth's follow up post mostly addressed it, which is why I changed my mind with the possibly rating.
So about the things I mentioned above in my message, what abilities does 1-A gives to someone? And are you fine with the rest of what I mentioned?
 
It basically sees causality as a toy; a story it can easily manipulate, but isn't bound by it, no?
 
Another heads up, 1-A and above also have to be Immeasurable LS/Speed by default is another known detail.

And based on what someone else clarified and what Firestorm said, a full on 1-A rating is probably on board.
 
Another heads up, 1-A and above also have to be Immeasurable LS/Speed by default is another known detail.

And based on what someone else clarified and what Firestorm said, a full on 1-A rating is probably on board.
Can we just agree to the possibly so we can move on and actually do something with our lives?
 
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