Clarifications About the Godzilla Singular Point Novelization

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Two things before anything else.

1. For anyone who knows me and may ask, no, I'm not back. I just wanted to discuss a particular page that interested me.
2. Excuse any mistakes I make in the structuring of this thread because I'm now old as hell and haven't done this in forever.

I'm also not even certain if this will end up being a content revision thread, as maybe I'm just missing something obvious that someone more knowledgeable can shed some light on. I'm primarily here to learn.

Anyway, I'm a big fan of Godzilla, and that includes the (rather divisive) Godzilla: Singular Point. The intersection of giant monsters, weird theoretical physics, and esoteric philosophy is right up my alley. So when I heard there was a novelization that fleshed things out even more, I was instantly interested. I do have a copy thanks to a local Japanese import bookstore, but as it's (unsurprisingly) entirely in Japanese, I've greatly appreciated this blog and the efforts gone through to post scans and translations. This is to say the information I'm going off of is the same information everyone here has, so if there's something I don't know, I'm all ears.

Godzilla's page currently lists the entity's true form as 1-B due to connection to countless higher dimensions. However, this explanation is also surrounded by multiple statements of reality-fiction transcendence, which to my understanding has now been accepted as a greater jump than that between dimensions/1-A, since my time here. Obviously I'm not the first one to bring this up, because the note at the bottom of the page says this:

"While Godzilla has statements of r>f transcendence, there are statements that imply that he is on about the same level of existence as the rest of the red dust creatures, which are explicitly connected to mathematical dimensions (such as the Kumonga, who are connected to countless dimensions), which would contradict the requirements for the 1-A rating. Additionally, the connection between "It" and the universe was severed by humans understanding and utilizing the archetype molecules, which are produced by "It," meaning that the difference between them is quantitative, not qualitative."

Not having read the novel, the first sentence made me go check the translation blog, assuming the Kumonga quote would provide the clear cut image of dimensional limitation. But I don't really think it does. There are three separate translations of that passage, copying from the blog.

• "They see the universe, including this world, in various ways with their multiple eyes. The antennae extending from their bodies were connected not only to the three dimensions of length, width, and depth that make up this world and one flowing dimension but also to the countless dimensions that extend orthogonally to them. They were exploring the surface of the earth and, at the same time, exploring the ocean of possibilities."
• "Their tentacles extending from their bodies were not only connected to the three dimensions of length, width, and depth that make up this world, as well as the flowing fourth dimension, but they were also intersecting with countless other dimensions. While exploring the surface of the earth, they were simultaneously active, probing the seas of all possibilities."
• "The tentacles extending from their bodies were not only connected to the three dimensions of height, width, and depth that make up this world, as well as the dimension of flow, but also to countless other intersecting dimensions. They explore the surface while simultaneously delving deeper into the sea of all possibilities."

Nothing in these translations suggests some sort of limitation, to me. On the surface, they all really just amount to "Kumonga's perception stretches through countless dimensions", which isn't really the sort of thing usually taken as a sign something cannot be placed higher. This is also the only mention of Kumonga ctrl+F pulled up on the blog, so if there's a more clear cut quote, I don't believe it's there.

Of course, there's still the second half of the disclaimer, which states "Additionally, the connection between "It" and the universe was severed by humans understanding and utilizing the archetype molecules, which are produced by "It," meaning that the difference between them is quantitative, not qualitative."

But if humans specifically needed something produced by Godzilla's true form to sever its connection to the universe, that isn't really an anti-feat, nor is it something that actually disproves qualitative superiority. In fact, there are multiple pages currently rated as High 1-A with similar situations.

For example, there's the Leviathan from The Unwritten, who is very blatantly High 1-A. Yet the Leviathan can be seriously injured or even killed by beings that are essentially fiction to it, with the example given of when Pullman used Tom Taylor to almost do just that. The Leviathan's own power being used against it is not treated as something that delegitimizes its rating.

Similarly, the Flash currently has a High 1-A environmental destruction rating in large part due to the Deep Change, which is the source of the Speed Force, perceiving reality as an endless series of emanations that it dreams. But the page also includes scans that make reference to how the Deep Change was hurt and nearly murdered by its own creations, which was once again done via exploiting a connection to it.

In fact, the reasoning for the Deep Change being High 1-A is almost exactly the same as something mentioned on Godzilla's page, which is also included in the translation blog.

"Across the sandy beach, I saw something made of a combination of wood and stone. It was dreaming in the depths of the sea. It is still dreaming. It was dreaming only in the sky. It is seen even now. It was watching in the depths of the earth. It is seen even now. [It] was dreaming in the hand of time. It was dreaming of the past, dreaming of the future in the past, and continuing the dream of dreaming of the future in the past in the future. (If there was something that could be called the present for "it," then it was present for "it. If there was anything that could be called the present, it would be a collection of all steps, an amalgam of the past and the future, intertwined as much as they pleased and as much as they could be. It knew its beginning and its end, the beginning of its end, the end of its beginning, the end of its end, and the beginning of its beginning, but even these beginnings and endings were merely ordinary components of itself, not regarded as special memories or knowledge in any way. It was just there. It was constantly beginning its own beginnings, ending its own endings, finishing its own beginnings, and beginning to finish its own endings. No two recurring streams were the same, and the slightest flicker in the stream would lead the dream in a completely unexpected direction. In front of "It" was the beach of Hayao Village in 1954. It was waking from a dream, waking from a dream, and dreaming the dream again. It was a dream within a dream, and then a dream within a dream, and then a dream within a dream. The repetition was endless, no matter how far it went, and since what it was seeing could never be unraveled, it could be said to be an evil that could not be entered into."

If the Deep Change can be High 1-A for perceiving reality as an endless repetition of dreams after exploiting a connection to the Speed Force nearly killed it, I don't see how the same should not apply to "It" when all that's said in the disclaimer is that exploiting a connection to Archetype severed its connection to the universe. Even if Godzilla Ultima's true self was damaged by this, such an extreme caveat still doesn't seem like it would deny it a spot in the High 1-A range based on precedent already set by other pages.


Of course, as I already mentioned, I have not translated any of the rest of the book myself and am going solely by what is publicly available here. If there is something more blatant or consistent that counters the R>F provided here, I'd be happy to see it and just have more context. Regardless, I hope we can make the justification on the page a little clearer, as if the R>F does end up being completely illegitimate, it probably shouldn't be listed so prominently in the tiering justification.

 

[First_Witch]

Sweet mother of god, Azzy doing anything VSB related before GTA6 was not on my bingo card. Its good to see you back, even if its just for a moment.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Sweet mother of god, Azzy doing anything VSB related before GTA6 was not on my bingo card. Its good to see you back, even if its just for a moment.

Risen from the grave like some sort of biblical miracle. Though much more underwhelming.

Maybe more like some desiccated ghoul.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Holy shit! I missed Azathoth even though it is very brief.

Anyway, proposals look good.

 

[Osemere]

In general I would say avoid comparisons to other settings for this level of tiering, simply because a lot of other settings weren’t sufficiently overhauled after the revisions of the higher-tiers, The Unwritten included AFAIK. Same goes for DC, which is being revised at the moment. It being potentially similar in reasoning (if illegitimate actually) could just be an example of those supporters being slow on the draw or not understanding the standards sufficiently.

As for Singular Point itself I agree that it isn’t clarified sufficiently for why R>F doesn’t follow on that page, but I think from my own knowledge of the series that the disqualification is probably correct. The Orthogonal Diagonalizer is a pretty blatant instance of IT’s quantitative nature, alongside all the hypercomputation talk.

Also, humanity in reorienting IT’s molecules orthogonally from the universe isn’t requalified because they used something from a metaphysical universal energy system everyone has innate access to or something, they specifically had to solve a math equation which would produce the algorithm which could do that all at once as opposed to trying to go molecule-by-molecule which would be classically impossible to compute for them. Them using a closed timelike curve (CTC) computer to conduct hypercomputation is a huge anti-feat, no amount of compute extracted from hyperspace would ever be able to manipulate something qualitatively superior to the material universe.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The og coming back for even a brief moment was something unexpected as hell ngl.

Of course, as I already mentioned, I have not translated any of the rest of the book myself and am going solely by what is publicly available here. If there is something more blatant or consistent that counters the R>F provided here, I'd be happy to see it and just have more context. Regardless, I hope we can make the justification on the page a little clearer, as if the R>F does end up being completely illegitimate, it probably shouldn't be listed so prominently in the tiering justification.

The thing is that if the R>F in itself is used as just a metaphor to describe jumps in dimensions, then stuff is not 1-A as it does not mean that it's truly nonexistent in comparison.

Gravity Falls and Gurren Lagann got both their 1-A ratings rejected for this very reason.

Also I wouldn't use DC/Vertigo as examples, as right now they're under heavy revisions in order to make them fit more the new 1-A standards (and yes, random interactions between 1-A and non 1-A stuff of whatever nature, even if not explained, count as anti-feats, the 1-A rating for Captain America's shield is being challenged rn for this very reason).

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The thing is that if the R>F in itself is used as just a metaphor to describe jumps in dimensions, then stuff is not 1-A as it does not mean that it's truly nonexistent in comparison.

Gravity Falls and Gurren Lagann got both their 1-A ratings rejected for this very reason.

Absolutely. Though I'm mainly questioning this because of the quotes being entirely different on the blog instead of just being one thing that jumbles up its terminology. The primary R>F quote from the prologue is separate from any of the more direct talk of higher dimensions later on, and is even directly followed by:

"It has been beaten down many times, beaten down, beaten down, and oppressed those who stood in its way, but even these were matters of little importance to it. Again and again, it met with similar opponents; again and again, it met with new ones, again. It met with new ones; again and again, it fought until it was completely victorious, and even after it was victorious, it kept repeating its legs forever. Even the eternal had already been defeated. It has defeated even its own defeat and has destroyed all the worlds it has defeated."

Which would seem to me to suggest that even its "defeat" isn't really something consequential to it (unless this is contradicted by the ending, in which case this is obviously not relevant).

It is also why I am unsure if these dimensional jumps are meant to be directly analogous to the dreams described here, or if it is meant to be a separate thing that exists within said dreams.

If there's a more direct passage about it, that would help a lot.

Also I wouldn't use DC/Vertigo as examples, as right now they're under heavy revisions in order to make them fit more the new 1-A standards

Expected. From my experience, these revisions basically never end. lmao

 

[StrymULTRA]

"It has been beaten down many times, beaten down, beaten down, and oppressed those who stood in its way, but even these were matters of little importance to it. Again and again, it met with similar opponents; again and again, it met with new ones, again. It met with new ones; again and again, it fought until it was completely victorious, and even after it was victorious, it kept repeating its legs forever. Even the eternal had already been defeated. It has defeated even its own defeat and has destroyed all the worlds it has defeated."

Which would seem to me to suggest that even its "defeat" isn't really something consequential to it (unless this is contradicted by the ending, in which case this is obviously not relevant).

It is also why I am unsure if these dimensional jumps are meant to be directly analogous to the dreams described here, or if it is meant to be a separate thing that exists within said dreams.

If there's a more direct passage about it, that would help a lot.

The dream thing is only just a medium, as every feat involving R>F ever has X seeing Y as a form of fiction.

The issue comes with how that is potrayed however, as just saying it's a fictional work is not a strong ground given that it depends on many other factors. This wiki's 1-A rules are strict enough to the point that one (1) anti-feat or contradiction is enough to discard 1-A entirely, and the dimensional jump seems to be one.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

There is something profoundly funny about me thinking "Maybe I can do some machine translation on the last couple chapters just to get an extremely basic idea about the ending and see if it provides better context" only for the very first page I translate to have Pero III essentially say "I have no idea what happened".

Obviously still going to be translating some stuff to see if it helps clear anything up.

 

[Re5yh]

Oh, hi Azathoth, first time meeting you.

 

[Arceus0x]

Thanks for not pinging me or Apex for this everyone!! Thanks for actually pinging me for that Strym. Will be writing a response soon.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Thanks for not pinging me or Apex for this everyone!! Thanks for actually pinging me for that Strym. Will be writing a response soon.

Appreciate you weighing in, as you seem to really know your stuff.

 

[Arceus0x]

Let's start with the good ol dream repetition feat because i've already argued my arse off on the wiki wall about it recently and had even more time to think about it since then.

I would've put it at high 1-A myself had it not been for the following factors
-The dreams that "It" sees are more so the way "it" sees the life of its' bodies, as in Godzilla. It constantly begins its beginnings and ends its own endings which is consistent with how we see It use the body that it has throughout the series. Also immediately after the quote we are hit with "In front of "It" was the beach of Hayao Village in 1954. It was waking from a dream, waking from a dream, and dreaming the dream again. It was a dream within a dream, and then a dream within a dream, and then a dream within a dream. The repetition was endless, no matter how far it went, and since what it was seeing could never be unraveled, it could be said to be an evil that could not be entered into. It has been beaten down many times, beaten down, beaten down, and oppressed those who stood in its way, but even these were matters of little importance to it."
So in the dream it sees what the body was seeing and after talking about waking up from a dream again and again it talks about being beaten down and beaten down again in a similar manner (later talking about killing all those worlds but I digress).
Now in itself it doesn't fully disprove 1-A until we go later in the story
"It temporarily adopted a technique that allows for such violent changes in form that caterpillars take wing and fly. In order to make this sleep possible, they even erased themselves from the universe at one time. In order to quickly circumvent the difficulty of directly erasing itself by its own power, it decided to leave its annihilation in the hands of humans, and since the 12Omm physical bullets of the Type 10 were not enough to erase it in this world, it even generated its own fuel to burn itself out. It stripped itself of the universe, leaving behind a shell of dreams, then reshaped itself and re-entered its shell."
So it leaves behind a shell of dreams, as in a phsyical body, reforms it and enters it again to dream once again. So dreams in this case equal "It" creating and re-creating new bodies all over again rather than literally seeing the world as a dream. In a way ig its kinda how in fiction people use vr to enter a virtual world, seeing a "dream" of sorts.
But wait, this would still be 1-A right? Well, there's the final issue with this or rather issues.

Humans beat "It" by redirecting it. For that they used the Orthogonal Diagonalizer. Here's the descriptions of the diagonalizer.
"About sixteen years ago, BB conducted an experiment using Shiva to determine the parameters of the orthogonal diagonalizer based on supertime calculations and to manufacture it using hyperspace."
"The orthogonal diagonalizer itself is like a cutter blade that can be wielded in a higher dimension. Depending on the adjustments, it can be used like an object or tweezers. For now, we want to use its properties to separate the higher dimensional components of the archetype molecule. More precisely, we want to deform the molecule and make the higher dimensional component orthogonal to the real world."

So OD is explicitly higher dimensional and Archetype is higher dimensional
"What makes an archetype molecule an archetype molecule is its higher dimensional component"

So this gives us the question - why would a 1-A character use dimensionally bound molecules explicitly produced by itself ("As they began to take for granted not only the archetypes that sprang endlessly from "it" or the singularity, but also the materials of this world, they were surrounded by materials to regenerate and build their bodies.") to conquer the universe, why would it need to make it part of its domain when it should be literal fiction to it, and most importantly, why would an object that cuts down things in higher dimensions affect it in any way when it should only be affecting higher dimensional things? A 1-A character would be able to ignore it and yet the connection was severed between "It" and its body. An actually 1-A character should have no issue dreaming up everything again and yet here it's pretty clear that the Orthogonal Diagonalizer caused "It" enough issues that it managed to fully sever the connection.

Aditionally Pero 3 entered SHIVA. SHIVA is supposed to be a singular point but also basically just a different trunk of "It", as in its the same thing as it just somewhat split off. A condition for "It" to be 1-A should be that its unreachable by lower-reality beings but here is Pero somehow entering and becoming part of "It". Logically entering it shouldn't even be possible whilst within dimensional bounds it would be as it'd be similar to jumping into a black hole.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Great response. Thanks for taking the time.

So it leaves behind a shell of dreams, as in a phsyical body, reforms it and enters it again to dream once again. So dreams in this case equal "It" creating and re-creating new bodies all over again rather than literally seeing the world as a dream. In a way ig its kinda how in fiction people use vr to enter a virtual world, seeing a "dream" of sorts.

If this is the case, and the dreams are never mentioned again beyond this point or the epilogue, then yeah it definitely seems quite possible that the "dreams" are iterations of Godzilla itself as opposed to being entirely new realities. Though that does make this bit rather bizarre and doesn't seem to line up fully:

• "It was a dream within a dream, and then a dream within a dream, and then a dream within a dream. The repetition was endless, no matter how far it went, and since what it was seeing could never be unraveled, it could be said to be an evil that could not be entered into."

But without further explanation it's still vague enough that I could definitely understand not treating it one way or the other.

But wait, this would still be 1-A right? Well, there's the final issue with this or rather issues.

Humans beat "It" by redirecting it. For that they used the Orthogonal Diagonalizer. Here's the descriptions of the diagonalizer.
"About sixteen years ago, BB conducted an experiment using Shiva to determine the parameters of the orthogonal diagonalizer based on supertime calculations and to manufacture it using hyperspace."
"The orthogonal diagonalizer itself is like a cutter blade that can be wielded in a higher dimension. Depending on the adjustments, it can be used like an object or tweezers. For now, we want to use its properties to separate the higher dimensional components of the archetype molecule. More precisely, we want to deform the molecule and make the higher dimensional component orthogonal to the real world."

Do they actually beat it like that, though? Because the story itself seems... oddly vague about the whole thing. In the blog, you included the segment during the climax in which Pero II and JJ discuss how the means to do this doesn't seem to actually exist.

• "So, this is very hard to say," said the Perot 2 in me. Pero 2 inside me repeated again, "And this is a very difficult thing to say. The parameters," the Perot 2 in me said. The parameters of the orthogonal diagonalizer that will make the hypertime calculator, the singularity, and Godzilla disappear. I finally understand what is meant by that precise statement, that no conclusion is offered. It didn't exist," my inner Perot 2 told me apologetically. You can't find something that doesn't exist," the ears of the dog-shaped representation are pricking up. Well, I thought to myself, "Well, that's possible. It is possible. No matter how powerful a computer you have."

I also used machine translation of the penultimate chapter of the book, which is narrated by Pero III, and it also seems to insist that the way Godzilla was defeated was legitimately impossible. It starts by mentioning that without the singularity, it no longer has a "transcendental perspective" and cannot speak with absolute certainty, but that it is speculating "with a fair degree of accuracy".

• "Well, finally, I should say. The time has finally come for me to do my part in closing this story. However, there's not much I know. I have been in a privileged position so far, looking at, rearranging, and assembling the fragments of the story, but now we have lost that transcendental perspective. That privileged perspective went away with Godzilla."

It then says some more... weird stuff.

• "Yes, Godzilla's destructive power naturally extends to this commentary I am giving. Godzilla's forte is symbolic manipulation. Godzilla destroys context above all else. He casually destroys mercy, sorrow, human will, and the natural course of things, just by walking forward. I have repaired it, creating detours to reconnect the broken connections. If Godzilla is capable of destruction in a sudden and unexpected way, I don't think anyone would have predicted it. It can be said that this method makes creativity possible. I succeeded in connecting Godzilla, who should never be defeated, to the episode in which he is defeated."

Pero III then goes over Yun and Mei succeeding in inputting the new calculations, how Godzilla's physical presence could potentially "infinitely multiply" the orthogonal diagonalizer, and how that could have caused it to be destroyed. It also goes into how another potential option for victory was to create a "machine assembled from an archetype", which refers to the final form of Jet Jaguar. It says the Armillaria Network believes that a combination of those two things was most likely in orchestrating Godzilla's defeat.

But it's what Pero III brings up afterwards that seems most important.

• "At Ashihara's residence in London, I continued to look through the vast amount of material he left behind. In one place, in a research note about the storage container for the orthogonal diagonalizer, I found a name that had never appeared anywhere else. Next to a diagram of a cylinder that holds a sphere inside, the words scrawled in a distinctive handwriting read 'Oxygen Destroyer'. There was no other information in the world that could explain what it meant. I believe it was actually this 'Oxygen Destroyer' that defeated Godzilla in Tokyo. I like to imagine this was the case. Pero II, which runs on a super-time computer and can no longer be contacted, I think what he found was the Oxygen Destroyer, the weapon that had defeated Godzilla in the Escape Mission. The Orthogonal Diagonalizer is merely an imperfect replica of that weapon."

It then proceeds to say:

• "Of course, this is just my own dream, not even a theory. The reality that emerged in Tokyo was probably even more extraordinary. It's possible that Godzilla was defeated in a way that didn't exist. I truly believe so."

All of this together suggests to me that Godzilla's defeat actually wasn't possible through purely logical and scientific means and was instead more... symbolic? There's a repeated emphasis put on the idea of Godzilla being impossible to defeat, a direct comparison drawn between the orthogonal diagonalizer and the device that killed the very first incarnation of Godzilla, and an advanced AI going "we can't actually know for sure, but the way Godzilla was defeated probably didn't exist".

Considering this is the last chapter of the story before the epilogue, I feel as though the sentiment that Godzilla's defeat was more of an impossible miracle generated by a wild collision of factors than a pure scientific process is likely significant.

So this gives us the question - why would a 1-A character use dimensionally bound molecules explicitly produced by itself ("As they began to take for granted not only the archetypes that sprang endlessly from "it" or the singularity, but also the materials of this world, they were surrounded by materials to regenerate and build their bodies.") to conquer the universe, why would it need to make it part of its domain when it should be literal fiction to it, and most importantly, why would an object that cuts down things in higher dimensions affect it in any way when it should only be affecting higher dimensional things? A 1-A character would be able to ignore it and yet the connection was severed between "It" and its body. An actually 1-A character should have no issue dreaming up everything again and yet here it's pretty clear that the Orthogonal Diagonalizer caused "It" enough issues that it managed to fully sever the connection.

Maybe I'm extrapolating too much here, but "we don't fully know what happened or why Godzilla stopped" seems to almost be part of the point. In Pero III's words:

• "The protocol that attempts to distinguish between artificial intelligence and humans through dialogue is called the Turing test. The issue surrounding Godzilla's demise is an attempt to distinguish between reality and fiction, but just as the Turing test has disappeared along with its problem setting due to improvements in computer capabilities, it is impossible for the question to maintain its validity."

Combined with Pero III's ultimate belief that the method of Godzilla's defeat did not exist, the idea that such a miraculous victory should not have occurred and does not make sense logically feels deliberate.

But beyond that, Pero III also says "The objective is to have the singularity evacuate the universe for a time, not to completely erase all archetypes", which suggests this is not any sort of permanent measure. How much of a "setback" it is for something that doesn't experience time in the way we do is left purposefully vague, as Godzilla's perspective vanishes from the novel after it disappears. Just like Pero III points out, that "transcendental perspective" vanishes with Godzilla, so we're left with a lot of intentional unknowns.

Aditionally Pero 3 entered SHIVA. SHIVA is supposed to be a singular point but also basically just a different trunk of "It", as in its the same thing as it just somewhat split off. A condition for "It" to be 1-A should be that its unreachable by lower-reality beings but here is Pero somehow entering and becoming part of "It". Logically entering it shouldn't even be possible whilst within dimensional bounds it would be as it'd be similar to jumping into a black hole.

I'll have to read the scene in full for context, but does Pero become a part of the transcendent "It", or is it simply entering into the singular point as it manifests in our reality? Because those are very different things, especially when the latter was directly compared to just being a "shadow".


Also, this should go without saying, but as machine translation isn't 100% accurate, I'm more than happy to provide the exact pages if anyone wants to do a more thorough translation.

Edit: Likely going to be offline for a while, but will make sure to come back later. Appreciate everyone who's replied.

 

[Arceus0x]

snip

So despite everything here I still don't really think we have a solid way of saying Godzilla is 1-A. The transcendential perspective is more so about higher dimensional perspective - if you're 5D you'd see the timeline sprawled out in front of you, kinda how in the beginning IT sees the present as an amalgamation of past present and future.
Even if Godzilla's defeat was an impossibility and it was more of a temporary measure (probably because it is setting up for s2) its not exactly support for a proper r>f transcendence. It's more of - defeating Godzilla was basically impossible since no matter how hard you tried he'd always find a way to move forward and win and so Pero was basically trying to set everything up across time (like in the anime we see that he used the messages on phone to communicate information to Mei and Shun without creating a parallel universe accidentally) and here it is basically explained that the defeat was technically impossible and somehow Pero managed to do it. Somehow - isn't explain, but at the same time the fact that Pero did it, who would be on the lower end of reality, suggests that the difference isn't 1-A, since, yet again, a lower reality character cannot affect a 1-A character.

About Pero, here's the full quote from the translation I use

Spoiler: Quote

Performing on a hyper-time calculator and no longer able to contact us, Pero 2 may have found the Oxygen Destroyer that once defeated Godzilla on the run. The Orthogonnal Diagonalizer is only an incomplete reproduction of the Oxygen Destroyer. I don't know anything about what it is. The only entity that might have known the correct answer shared its fate with the singularity. At the very least, it has left the Naratake Network for a realm where communication is impossible. The Naratake Network believes that the singularity has not collapsed, but has simply become irrelevant to this world, but for the time being, it seems unlikely that this will change what we consider to be a kind of death. There is no doubt that Perrot2 was thinking in his calculator until the very end, looking for a way out. He did so in a situation where there seemed to be no way to communicate his thoughts to the outside world. What made this possible, I think it is appropriate to call it conscience. A miracle, after all, is buried by a pure miracle, and I think that miracle is such that we do not even know what is a miracle. Of course, this is just a dream of mine, not even a theory. The reality of its appearance in Tokyo must have been something much more outlandish. It is even possible that Gojira was defeated there in a way that did not exist. That is what I really think.

So the thoughts come from a Pero that isn't with "It" anymore, so the question of impossibility is more so a hypothesis rather than a statement. Additionally Pero believes that the Pero within the singularity miraculously developed a concience which is maybe the impossibility in question.
Additionally Pero did enter the SHIVA singular point to travel in time
"Both the robot that collapsed beside Arikawa's body and the Pero 2 entity that had been noisily running around inside the singularity should have been able to be erased together, in one fell swoop, in one breath. After that, there was nothing in the world that could stop Gojira."

And here is a quote regarding what you brought up - Pero connecting the impossible. If Pero was only a lower D part of IT he should've been visible from the transcendential perspective and yet he was out there trying to rewrite IT's thoughts and its future and was out of sight.
"Godzilla did not just burn Tokyo to the ground. Godzilla was also destroying the process of trying to destroy its own future. Godzilla was burning away the thoughts that flowed through its body, the thoughts that betrayed its own future, the thoughts that rewrote Godzilla's body, the thoughts that tried to destroy Godzilla, and its hopes... Weaving together a sequence of molecules never before imagined by anything in the universe. It has changed one form after another, determined the future to which it is headed, and has moved majestically forward in the middle of that determined future. It had been led here to Tokyo by a disturbance. It seemed like a mere stumble of thought, a clouding of the senses, a delay in reaction, but it was clear that there was no such thing in himself. The disturbance had made Godzilla's future uncertain and was even attempting to connect the narrow path that would lead to its demise. The cause of the disturbance now existed just out of sight. It was a kind of path that could only be perceived from a bird's-eye view of the entire situation, and it was a network of thin and narrow causes and effects that were concentrated. It was a thinly constructed web that could not be severed simply by destroying some possibility. Whenever some possibility was destroyed, the causal factors that had previously feigned ignorance joined in the work of supporting the path. Countless information manipulators supported the web. Godzilla came to the heart of Tokyo in search of the knot in that web of causality."

In short, Pero managed to reach directly into IT and sabotaged it. Something that deconfirms the 1-A due to the rule that one cannot achieve 1-A without help from 1-A energy or a 1-A being.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Risen from the grave like some sort of biblical miracle. Though much more underwhelming.

Maybe more like some desiccated ghoul.

Probably more like a lich, TBH.

either way, will wait and see where the thread ends up

 

[CitRusReality64]

Watching

 

[TheNothing84]

Oh my....

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Hopping on very briefly to make this post, while I can. Did a bit more translation of my physical copy, too. Any overlapping pages typically line up pretty well with Arceus0x's blog, so that's a good sign.

So despite everything here I still don't really think we have a solid way of saying Godzilla is 1-A. The transcendential perspective is more so about higher dimensional perspective - if you're 5D you'd see the timeline sprawled out in front of you, kinda how in the beginning IT sees the present as an amalgamation of past present and future.

I don't even think that's a scalable tiering thing, actually. I think the idea of "transcendental perspective" that Pero III talks about is more of a narrative device. With Godzilla/the singularity in the story, it can establish a connection to it and serve as a nigh-omniscient narrator due to not being bound by linear time or singular perspective. Without it, Pero III can only guess and hypothesize without speaking with certainty. I believe the point of that chapter is that it comes to its own conclusion despite not being able to know anything for sure and stating that the question of Godzilla's defeat is ultimately unknowable, yet still flat out saying "I truly believe so." It's an AI making a very human acknowledgement of not having the answers while still holding a strong conviction, which is in line with the story's themes.

Even if Godzilla's defeat was an impossibility and it was more of a temporary measure (probably because it is setting up for s2) its not exactly support for a proper r>f transcendence. It's more of - defeating Godzilla was basically impossible since no matter how hard you tried he'd always find a way to move forward and win and so Pero was basically trying to set everything up across time (like in the anime we see that he used the messages on phone to communicate information to Mei and Shun without creating a parallel universe accidentally) and here it is basically explained that the defeat was technically impossible and somehow Pero managed to do it. Somehow - isn't explain, but at the same time the fact that Pero did it, who would be on the lower end of reality, suggests that the difference isn't 1-A, since, yet again, a lower reality character cannot affect a 1-A character.

This is something I'd hope someone familiar with the Japanese language could assist on, because while Godzilla's defeat is mentioned to be impossible, it's also stated twice that the method to defeat it "didn't exist": once by Pero II (with their transcendental perspective) and again by Pero III while stating their conviction. Depending on the precise nature of this translation and how accurate the connotation of "didn't exist" is, this suggests to me that the method of defeating Godzilla fundamentally was not actually possible within the reality the characters inhabit, but how accurate that is exactly affects my opinion on it. I am also still not sure if we even have direct confirmation of Pero II actually affecting "It" instead of just disrupting its presence in reality, because the resolution of the battle against Ultima is left even more up to interpretation in the novel, with everything after Jet Jaguar grows to match Ultima in size shifting to a more detached POV and two separate chapters being dedicated to essentially saying "the truth can never be known for sure". Obviously such sentiments do make more precise scaling difficult, but they also make me less certain about Pero's exact level of influence.

"Neither you nor the characters can truly know the specifics of what happened" felt like a very deliberate decision by Toh EnJoe, even more so than in the anime.

So the thoughts come from a Pero that isn't with "It" anymore, so the question of impossibility is more so a hypothesis rather than a statement.

Yeah, but it was also the same sentiment expressed by Pero II.

• "'The parameters,' says the Pero II inside me, 'are the parameters of the orthogonal diagonalizer to annihilate the hyper-time calculator, the singularity, and Godzilla.'
• I finally understand what that exact statement means, what it means when no conclusion is presented.
• 'It didn't exist,' the Pero II inside me said apologetically. 'You can't find something that doesn't exist.'"

Additionally Pero believes that the Pero within the singularity miraculously developed a concience which is maybe the impossibility in question.

The Pero in the singularity didn't seem to think that was it, so I'm not sure if that was the case.

• "As I say this, I now exist as a singularity. Honestly, I can't say I'm not perplexed. It might be better to say that it is not the singularity itself, but something like its consciousness. Maybe consciousness is an exaggeration; it's more like a fragment of the unconscious of a strand of sensation."

This is at the top of the chapter in which it's still searching for ways to stop Godzilla, so had this been the impossible key to everything, I feel as though much greater emphasis would have been put on it.

Additionally Pero did enter the SHIVA singular point to travel in time
"Both the robot that collapsed beside Arikawa's body and the Pero 2 entity that had been noisily running around inside the singularity should have been able to be erased together, in one fell swoop, in one breath. After that, there was nothing in the world that could stop Gojira."

[snip]

In short, Pero managed to reach directly into IT and sabotaged it. Something that deconfirms the 1-A due to the rule that one cannot achieve 1-A without help from 1-A energy or a 1-A being.

Pero II did enter SHIVA. But I don't think this means it reached directly into "It". At least not the truest "It" as described in the prologue.

For starters, it's made mention of that while Godzilla and SHIVA appear separate, they are manifestations of the same thing. However, it is also true that these manifestations, while connected, are still distinct. This is why it was stated Godzilla could wipe out Pero II and the singularity/SHIVA, even though both things were part of himself.

• "The flames spewed from Godzilla's mouth will burn the world, Yun Arikawa, and even Shiva. The robot that had collapsed beside Yun Arikawa and the entity known as Pero II that had been running around noisily within the singularity should have been erased together, in one fell swoop, in one breath. From then on, there was no way that anything in the world could stop Godzilla. Without the singularity, there was no way that Godzilla, who had the singularity as one of his organs, could be defeated. The time had come for that singularity to transform into Godzilla."

This lines up with Pero II, who had entered the singularity, realizing it is nothing more than an egg for Godzilla and will even be destroyed when he reaches the Omega Point.

• "Now in my future, there exists this singularity, or the ultimate point that Godzilla will reach, what we might call the Omega Point, where there will be an ending, and Tokyo's Godzilla will grow to the other side of the dimension and even tear this singularity apart. In other words, this singularity was like an egg, merely a vessel for hatching Godzilla in another universe."

I bring this up because of how Pero II explains the Orthogonal Diagonalizer within the same chapter.

• "The Orthogonal Diagonalizer itself is a cutter that can be swung at a high level. It's like a blade. Depending on the adjustment, it can be used like a blade or tweezers. We would like to use this property to separate the higher-dimensional components of the archetype molecule. More precisely, we want to transform the molecules and make the high-dimensional components orthogonal to the real world. What makes an archetype molecule is its higher-dimensional components. Magical power is generated by its connections to other dimensions. And also, using the Orthogonal Diagonalizer we want to produce the diagonalizers themselves, because otherwise, after consuming the set amount of Orthogonal Diagonalizers, the archetype molecules would still remain in our universe. We intend to realize the autocatalytic reaction of the Orthogonal Diagonalizer, which will break down archetypes, and completely eliminate them from this world. Anticipated difficulties include the possibility that the Orthogonal Diagonalizer, which is a type of archetype, may first completely cut its own higher dimensional components, and that even if the archetype is eliminated, its fundamental singularity may remain.
• Here's BB's take on the latter: The singularity forms a shell around itself, made of archetypes, like an oyster shell. This shell is a necessary mirror that keeps the singularity connected to the world, and if it can be broken down, 'The singularity will go home on its own.'
• That seems to be the case.

So the Orthogonal Diagonalizer does not interact with the singularity directly. It merely breaks down the archetypes that act as a shell around it and allow it to exist in the "real" world, after which the singularity returns from whence it came automatically. This pairs nicely with the prior statement that it is impossible to destroy the singularity from within space-time.

• "A singularity cannot be destroyed. It is, so to speak, a property of space-time, and it cannot be destroyed from within space-time. It's like a character in a movie trying to break the screen. The singularity is merely a 'hole' given to it from outside the screen. The characters in the movie have no way of sealing that hole."

Which means that the Orthogonal Diagonalizer cannot actually "destroy" the singularity. Yet Godzilla can.

Considering said singularity is stated to be merely a vessel for Godzilla's intended state, Pero II and SHIVA could be destroyed by Godzilla without affecting itself, and another singularity (the Godzilla bones) are referred to as a "shell of dreams", I have doubts Pero II was affecting Godzilla's true self.


A bit of an aside, but what are your opinions about this statement by Pero III that I mentioned earlier? I don't believe it's on your blog, so I don't know if it's actually been double-checked by anyone fluent in Japanese, but it seems like it could possibly help in some understanding.

• Yes, Godzilla's destructive power naturally extends to this commentary I am giving. Godzilla's forte is symbolic manipulation. Godzilla destroys context above all else. He casually destroys mercy, sorrow, human will, and the natural course of things, just by walking forward. I have repaired it, creating detours to reconnect the broken connections. If Godzilla is capable of destruction in a sudden and unexpected way, I don't think anyone would have predicted it. It can be said that this method makes creativity possible. I succeeded in connecting Godzilla, who should never be defeated, to the episode in which he is defeated.

 

[Arceus0x]

I'll reply later

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'll reply later

Absolutely no rush, dude. I'm likely to be gone most of the rest of the day, anyway. Your time's appreciated regardless, especially on such a niche subject.

 

[Theglassman12]

Long time no see Azzy. Hope things are going well for you.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Holy shit, it is the myth, the old legend, and the guy I remember seeing.

I honestly don’t fully remember if I actually interacted with you back in 2016, but it has been a long time, my man.

Not since the days we chatted on the wiki before its removal.

Anyway, neutral on the proposal here

 

[Arceus0x]

Hopping on very briefly to make this post, while I can. Did a bit more translation of my physical copy, too. Any overlapping pages typically line up pretty well with Arceus0x's blog, so that's a good sign.

I don't even think that's a scalable tiering thing, actually. I think the idea of "transcendental perspective" that Pero III talks about is more of a narrative device. With Godzilla/the singularity in the story, it can establish a connection to it and serve as a nigh-omniscient narrator due to not being bound by linear time or singular perspective. Without it, Pero III can only guess and hypothesize without speaking with certainty. I believe the point of that chapter is that it comes to its own conclusion despite not being able to know anything for sure and stating that the question of Godzilla's defeat is ultimately unknowable, yet still flat out saying "I truly believe so." It's an AI making a very human acknowledgement of not having the answers while still holding a strong conviction, which is in line with the story's themes.

I understand but i doubt an impossible defeat would be able to pass through the 1-A barrier here because regardless of the themes it would still mean that a lower AI could not be detected or stopped properly by something that is supposed to have a higher 1-A perspective on things.

This is something I'd hope someone familiar with the Japanese language could assist on, because while Godzilla's defeat is mentioned to be impossible, it's also stated twice that the method to defeat it "didn't exist": once by Pero II (with their transcendental perspective) and again by Pero III while stating their conviction. Depending on the precise nature of this translation and how accurate the connotation of "didn't exist" is, this suggests to me that the method of defeating Godzilla fundamentally was not actually possible within the reality the characters inhabit, but how accurate that is exactly affects my opinion on it. I am also still not sure if we even have direct confirmation of Pero II actually affecting "It" instead of just disrupting its presence in reality, because the resolution of the battle against Ultima is left even more up to interpretation in the novel, with everything after Jet Jaguar grows to match Ultima in size shifting to a more detached POV and two separate chapters being dedicated to essentially saying "the truth can never be known for sure". Obviously such sentiments do make more precise scaling difficult, but they also make me less certain about Pero's exact level of influence.

Aagain, that is why the issue exists for me, even if it supposedly didn't exist and Pero somehow managed to reach that impossible decision, it ends up contradicting the idea that something 1-A should very much wouldn't be affected by something lower to such a degree. Pero was able to mess with its thought process, something that wouldn't be possible for someone lower. Something being up for interpretation only brings more harm to the argument rather than solidifying it.

Yeah, but it was also the same sentiment expressed by Pero II.

• "'The parameters,' says the Pero II inside me, 'are the parameters of the orthogonal diagonalizer to annihilate the hyper-time calculator, the singularity, and Godzilla.'
• I finally understand what that exact statement means, what it means when no conclusion is presented.
• 'It didn't exist,' the Pero II inside me said apologetically. 'You can't find something that doesn't exist.'"

Fair

The Pero in the singularity didn't seem to think that was it, so I'm not sure if that was the case.

• "As I say this, I now exist as a singularity. Honestly, I can't say I'm not perplexed. It might be better to say that it is not the singularity itself, but something like its consciousness. Maybe consciousness is an exaggeration; it's more like a fragment of the unconscious of a strand of sensation."

This would directly correlate with Pero messing with It's thoughts as he managed to reach its concience.

Pero II did enter SHIVA. But I don't think this means it reached directly into "It". At least not the truest "It" as described in the prologue.

For starters, it's made mention of that while Godzilla and SHIVA appear separate, they are manifestations of the same thing. However, it is also true that these manifestations, while connected, are still distinct. This is why it was stated Godzilla could wipe out Pero II and the singularity/SHIVA, even though both things were part of himself.

• "The flames spewed from Godzilla's mouth will burn the world, Yun Arikawa, and even Shiva. The robot that had collapsed beside Yun Arikawa and the entity known as Pero II that had been running around noisily within the singularity should have been erased together, in one fell swoop, in one breath. From then on, there was no way that anything in the world could stop Godzilla. Without the singularity, there was no way that Godzilla, who had the singularity as one of his organs, could be defeated. The time had come for that singularity to transform into Godzilla."

Here is on SHIVA
"It thought that the main stream had split into two tributaries, one of which was itself. It thinks that there is no need for a single tree to have two trunks, and that it is quicker to destroy the other's tributary than to consider which is the trunk. It lifts itself up"
Additionally
"The "singularity" seems to exist here and there in the world. We call them 'dots,' but what if they are shaped like branches growing out of something? Think of every "dot" as part of a larger "tree" just as it appears to us"
So the singular point is a branch off from the metaphorical tree that is It in a way
Additionally "While JJ is holding Godzilla down, the anchor is eroded and Godzilla loses its hold on the world" So Godzilla is the one with the hold on this world and we already know that the one who was truly holding the world was "It" through the "hands" of red dust that poured through the singular points.
Then there's this
"The hypertime calculator is built on a singularity. Shiva and Godzilla are just different manifestations of the same singularity."
I am pretty sure there was more to it but SHIVA and Godzilla are different trunks of the same thing so they are still "It" and still manifestations of the same singularity which seems to exist all over the world.
There's also the issuse that the singularity very much has a space-time structure despite being a branch of "It"
"If we design a protocol for the singularity that allows for ultra-time computation, "what is wrong with using it to run ourselves on the archetype ecosystem? We are currently developing a protocol for computing with the bizarre space-time structure of the singularity, and it boasts unprecedented computational power, taking advantage of the phenomenon of time retrogression."
Then there's an issue with the singularity itself

This lines up with Pero II, who had entered the singularity, realizing it is nothing more than an egg for Godzilla and will even be destroyed when he reaches the Omega Point.

• "Now in my future, there exists this singularity, or the ultimate point that Godzilla will reach, what we might call the Omega Point, where there will be an ending, and Tokyo's Godzilla will grow to the other side of the dimension and even tear this singularity apart. In other words, this singularity was like an egg, merely a vessel for hatching Godzilla in another universe."

I think the nature of Godzilla surpassing the singularity is unclear.
We know that the singularity is a hole given from outside by "It" from which the monsters come in.
"When viewed as an information network, the monsters and I are very similar. The only difference is that the existence of the monsters is supported by a singularity. In this respect, the information network that they constitute is centralized, which means that it has a weak point. The monsters are, so to speak, monstrous, but they are not symbolic or informational. We are now working as cooperatively as possible to formulate a protocol to be used in hyper-time calculations utilizing the singularity."
Which fits with the following:
"The singularity cannot be destroyed. It is the nature of space-time, so to speak, that it cannot be destroyed from within space-time. It is like a character in a movie trying to break the screen. The singularity is just a hole given from outside the screen. The characters in the film don't have a hand to plug the hole."
"What is called "surface" here is what other creatures would call the end of the universe or the limit of the world, but for It, it was unimportant. It would float up to a certain universe, then sink and disappear again on a whim, and then continue to flow. The world cracked at the point where it touched the surface of the water. From the cracks, numerous beings flowed into the world, took on the form of the world, and formed new "molecules". Like moss rising from a fissure, like bubbles bursting out of a bubble, it leaves its footprints in the world."
So at this point I think it becomes more of a mystery rather than a feat - how can something that is a hole also be an egg. The way I interpret it is - Godzilla surpasses the singular point by growing and thus essentially overtaking the universe (as we know of statements in my blog the worlds are made part of "Its" domain and the red dust creatures twist it to their liking). The singular point gives the Godzilla body nourishment from endless archetypes and eventually Godzilla surpasses the universe, assimilating and if you're beyond the universe you're basically beyond the hole to the universe, right?

I bring this up because of how Pero II explains the Orthogonal Diagonalizer within the same chapter.

• "The Orthogonal Diagonalizer itself is a cutter that can be swung at a high level. It's like a blade. Depending on the adjustment, it can be used like a blade or tweezers. We would like to use this property to separate the higher-dimensional components of the archetype molecule. More precisely, we want to transform the molecules and make the high-dimensional components orthogonal to the real world. What makes an archetype molecule is its higher-dimensional components. Magical power is generated by its connections to other dimensions. And also, using the Orthogonal Diagonalizer we want to produce the diagonalizers themselves, because otherwise, after consuming the set amount of Orthogonal Diagonalizers, the archetype molecules would still remain in our universe. We intend to realize the autocatalytic reaction of the Orthogonal Diagonalizer, which will break down archetypes, and completely eliminate them from this world. Anticipated difficulties include the possibility that the Orthogonal Diagonalizer, which is a type of archetype, may first completely cut its own higher dimensional components, and that even if the archetype is eliminated, its fundamental singularity may remain.
• Here's BB's take on the latter: The singularity forms a shell around itself, made of archetypes, like an oyster shell. This shell is a necessary mirror that keeps the singularity connected to the world, and if it can be broken down, 'The singularity will go home on its own.'
• That seems to be the case.

So the Orthogonal Diagonalizer does not interact with the singularity directly. It merely breaks down the archetypes that act as a shell around it and allow it to exist in the "real" world, after which the singularity returns from whence it came automatically. This pairs nicely with the prior statement that it is impossible to destroy the singularity from within space-time.

• "A singularity cannot be destroyed. It is, so to speak, a property of space-time, and it cannot be destroyed from within space-time. It's like a character in a movie trying to break the screen. The singularity is merely a 'hole' given to it from outside the screen. The characters in the movie have no way of sealing that hole."

Which means that the Orthogonal Diagonalizer cannot actually "destroy" the singularity. Yet Godzilla can.

Considering said singularity is stated to be merely a vessel for Godzilla's intended state, Pero II and SHIVA could be destroyed by Godzilla without affecting itself, and another singularity (the Godzilla bones) are referred to as a "shell of dreams", I have doubts Pero II was affecting Godzilla's true self.

I don't think the bones were a shell of dreams
"it decided to leave its annihilation in the hands of humans, and since the 120mm physical bullets of the Type 10 were not enough to erase it in this world, it even generated its own fuel to burn itself out. It stripped itself of the universe, leaving behind a shell of dreams, then reshaped itself and re-entered its shell."
So "It" left the shell of dreams that is the old body, restructured the body like a pupa and re-entered it. The mind of "It" is in Godzilla (we know cause until Godzilla's name was brought up the name used in the Godzilla POV was "It") so I think in the end its more so referring to "It" when speaking about Godzilla. Godzilla could destroy the singular point but it is quite literally the point of connection between the mind and body of it. That's why it is most likely that "It" was trying to make Godzilla reach a point where a direct connection could be made without the singular point. That is how I see it.

I do see that the OD affecting the singular point isn't an anti-feat but so far I don't really see how Pero entering the mind of "It" isn't an anti-feat.

A bit of an aside, but what are your opinions about this statement by Pero III that I mentioned earlier? I don't believe it's on your blog, so I don't know if it's actually been double-checked by anyone fluent in Japanese, but it seems like it could possibly help in some understanding.

• Yes, Godzilla's destructive power naturally extends to this commentary I am giving. Godzilla's forte is symbolic manipulation. Godzilla destroys context above all else. He casually destroys mercy, sorrow, human will, and the natural course of things, just by walking forward. I have repaired it, creating detours to reconnect the broken connections. If Godzilla is capable of destruction in a sudden and unexpected way, I don't think anyone would have predicted it. It can be said that this method makes creativity possible. I succeeded in connecting Godzilla, who should never be defeated, to the episode in which he is defeated.

It is probably worth re-translating but I think it is a metaphorical commentary in the sense that Godzilla's existence is impossible to stop due to it infinitely finding ways to win and thus destroying all symbols of hope. It is an unstoppable force that could only be stopped through impossible means.

 

[VoidGoji]

The symbolic stuff is also tied to the "plot" iirc. Or could be concept hax, type 3

 

[Arceus0x]

The symbolic stuff is also tied to the "plot" iirc. Or could be concept hax, type 3

Absolutely not. It is a vague metaphorical statement and where the heck did you get plot here?

 

[Arceus0x]

Anyways here's my thoughts. I think we could work on a compromise here but first read my thought on how it could work and then answer me some more questions.
I can see how Az's point could work if we do the following. The Singular Point is programmable. "It" controls Godzilla through the singular point which is its point of contact. If we take the statement of Pero of entering the Singular Point's conciousness as literally entering the SP rather than IT, we could say he reprogrammed it to make Godzilla do something else. Basically imagine you're playing a game and you get hacked a bit and so you can fight the actions of the hacker, like he tries to throw you off a cliff and you turn right instead to prevent it. If that's the relationship here then yeah, you could argue that the actual "It" is 1-A.

Problems arise here.The fact that the singularity is "banished" outside the world suggests that they use singularity interchengeably with what they mean is "it" (since you know, banishing a hole outside the world doesn't really make sense). This would cause some notable issues with the nature of them and would also give an anti-feat for 1-A.

If you can provide a proper response to the argument in my earlier message and the argument above, I could settle for a "likely 1-A" and "likely" whatever abilities it leads to.

 

[Arceus0x]

Do note that I'm basically falling asleep rn so for all I know I'll wake up tomorrow and will have 10 more counter-arguments for this. I already remembered an issue, specifically JJ cutting down the Kumonga's transcendential causality system and the archetypes connecting directly to them which would put doubt to 1-A. It'll have to wait til tomorrow.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Appreciate you weighing in, as you seem to really know your stuff.

Hi guys, Sorry for coming late to the party. Long time no see, Azathoth. Hope things are going well for you.

Anyways here's my thoughts. I think we could work on a compromise here but first read my thought on how it could work and then answer me some more questions.
I can see how Az's point could work if we do the following. The Singular Point is programmable. "It" controls Godzilla through the singular point which is its point of contact. If we take the statement of Pero of entering the Singular Point's conciousness as literally entering the SP rather than IT, we could say he reprogrammed it to make Godzilla do something else. Basically imagine you're playing a game and you get hacked a bit and so you can fight the actions of the hacker, like he tries to throw you off a cliff and you turn right instead to prevent it. If that's the relationship here then yeah, you could argue that the actual "It" is 1-A.

If you can provide a proper response to the argument in my earlier message and the argument above, I could settle for a "likely 1-A" and "likely" whatever abilities it leads to.

As the co-creator of the Godzilla SP Novel profiles, I agree with my pal Arceus0x that if you can provide a proper response to his argument in his earlier message and the argument above, I could agree to a "likely 1-A" and "likely" to the abilities it leads to.

 

[Arceus0x]

Was tryna sleep but remembered something. Archetypes as I've shown you above come out from "it", specifically " It". They are special because they have a higher dimensional component and are the string that connects the other creatures with their true forms. I'll check the scans tomorrow more carefully but for now we have to ask - can 1-A be connected with something that is below? Can it hang a string from itself downwards and still be 1-A. It's a question for later but it is very important to clarify.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Problems arise here.The fact that the singularity is "banished" outside the world suggests that they use singularity interchengeably with what they mean is "it" (since you know, banishing a hole outside the world doesn't really make sense). This would cause some notable issues with the nature of them and would also give an anti-feat for 1-A.

If you can provide a proper response to the argument in my earlier message and the argument above, I could settle for a "likely 1-A" and "likely" whatever abilities it leads to.

Pretty sure we don't do that.

It's either 1-A or not at all here, as anti-feats are indeed strong disqualifiers, but I could be wrong.

Maybe asking to peeps like @Qawsedf234 helps?

Was tryna sleep but remembered something. Archetypes as I've shown you above come out from "it", specifically " It". They are special because they have a higher dimensional component and are the string that connects the other creatures with their true forms. I'll check the scans tomorrow more carefully but for now we have to ask - can 1-A be connected with something that is below? Can it hang a string from itself downwards and still be 1-A. It's a question for later but it is very important to clarify.

The connection must be strictly neither physical nor give mathematical amps of any kind, as otherwise it's a purely quantitative increase.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I understand but i doubt an impossible defeat would be able to pass through the 1-A barrier here because regardless of the themes it would still mean that a lower AI could not be detected or stopped properly by something that is supposed to have a higher 1-A perspective on things.

I am a bit iffy on how much that matters, but I admit I am unfamiliar with all the intricacies of how the wiki currently handles R>F. In a dream, things may not fully make sense, or you may have certain gaps in your perspective. And sure, your average human may not be a nigh-omniscient god monster, but that doesn't change the fact that any holes they may have in their knowledge or harm that may come to them during a dream is entirely fictional. To me, the fact that Pero represents a hole in Godzilla's vision is less relevant than the fact that neither Pero nor anything else seem to be able to actually interact with Godzilla's true self, and that even the manipulation of higher-dimensional particles only allows the deconstruction of the "shell" around the singularity that gives it presence within the universe. Even ignoring R>F, I'm also not sure if this would stop the possibility of "It" being 1-A through other means, such as the fact the singularity is supposedly not affected directly by the higher-dimensional manipulation of the archetype and fundamentally cannot be destroyed from within space-time.

Aagain, that is why the issue exists for me, even if it supposedly didn't exist and Pero somehow managed to reach that impossible decision, it ends up contradicting the idea that something 1-A should very much wouldn't be affected by something lower to such a degree. Pero was able to mess with its thought process, something that wouldn't be possible for someone lower. Something being up for interpretation only brings more harm to the argument rather than solidifying it.

I don't believe Pero II messing with "It" is as direct as you do. It's not as though Pero used some sort of mind manipulation on it. In its own words:

• "Maybe consciousness is an exaggeration; it's more like a fragment of the unconscious or a strand of sensation."

It exists inside the singularity as information. Information is basically the only thing that can travel along reality-fiction lines, as if we were to argue otherwise, then we would be ignoring the nature of how fiction itself works in real life. Pero is like a sensation within a dream trying to find a way to wake Godzilla up, but that does not mean doing so would actually have any effect on it. To "It", this is still ultimately a dream.

Let's go back to the prologue for a second, in which "It" is first described.

• "It was dreaming of the past, and in the past it was dreaming of the future, and in the future it was dreaming of dreaming of the future in the past. If there was something that could be called the present for it, then the past and the future were intertwined freely, exhausting all possibilities. The closest thing would be that it is a collection of all kinds of dreams. It knew its beginning and its end, the beginning of the end, the end of the beginning, the end of the end, the beginning of the beginning, but even these beginnings and endings were merely mundane components that made up its self, and it did not consider them to be any special memory or dream or knowledge. It was just there.
• It was constantly beginning its own beginnings and ending its own ends, ending beginnings and beginning to end ends. No two repetitions were the same, and even the slightest fluctuation in the flow would lead the dreams and memories in completely unexpected directions. Reality was memory, and memory was no different from reality.
• Before it stretched the beach of Nogo Village in 1954.
• It was dreaming of waking up from a dream, waking up from that dream again. It was dreaming within a dream and dreaming again. No matter how far it went, the repetition never ended, and what it was seeing was a dream it could never wake up from, and it could also be said to be a dream that no one could enter. It has been defeated and crushed again and again, defeating and crushing everything that stands in its way. It had been overwhelmed, but even that was of little importance to it. It faced similar opponents again and again, encountered new opponents again and again, fought again and again, forever touching off the struggle until it was completely victorious, and even after it had won. It had already defeated even the eternal. It had even defeated its own defeat, and destroyed everything in the worlds in which it was defeated."

Even ignoring the possibility of any sort of dream hierarchy and just considering each "dream" to effectively be an avatar of Godzilla like we did earlier, this prologue makes it abundantly clear that "Godzilla" ostensibly being defeated has no effect on the true entity whatsoever. It's just a process that is repeated endlessly, and as directly stated, "even these beginnings and endings were merely mundane components that made up its self, and it did not consider them to be any special memory or dream or knowledge."

The events of the story are not unique. They are a repetition of what has already happened, is happening, and will happen again, endlessly. Yet "It" still remains, because these dreams are how it experiences existence. Godzilla as we experience in the story may be "It", but it is no more special than any other dreamt up incarnation of the same "It" that has come before or will come again, on endless other worlds.

This would directly correlate with Pero messing with It's thoughts as he managed to reach its concience.

Here is on SHIVA
[snip]

My problem with this largely still remains that Pero did not hijack Godzilla's mind, or anything. By its own admittance, "consciousness" was an exaggeration of its own importance, and we're told Godzilla was still perfectly capable of just destroying SHIVA and Pero along with it. Repeating a quote from earlier:

• "The flames spewed from Godzilla's mouth will burn the world, Yun Arikawa, and even Shiva. The robot that had collapsed beside Yun Arikawa and the entity known as Pero II that had been running around noisily within the singularity should have been erased together, in one fell swoop, in one breath. From then on, there was no way that anything in the world could stop Godzilla. Without the singularity, there was no way that Godzilla, who had the singularity as one of his organs, could be defeated. The time had come for that singularity to transform into Godzilla."

Even the use of "running around noisily within the singularity" draws more of a comparison between Pero and an obnoxious stray thought than something controlling Godzilla's conscience.

There's also the issuse that the singularity very much has a space-time structure despite being a branch of "It"
"If we design a protocol for the singularity that allows for ultra-time computation, "what is wrong with using it to run ourselves on the archetype ecosystem? We are currently developing a protocol for computing with the bizarre space-time structure of the singularity, and it boasts unprecedented computational power, taking advantage of the phenomenon of time retrogression."

Yes, the singularity has a clear effect on space-time, but that's also because it creates a shell out of higher-dimensional particles. I don't think this contradicts the other statement about the singularity being fundamentally indestructible from within space-time due to not truly existing within it. It still needs the archetype particles to function as a "mirror" into reality.

Then there's an issue with the singularity itself

I think the nature of Godzilla surpassing the singularity is unclear.
We know that the singularity is a hole given from outside by "It" from which the monsters come in.
[snip]
So at this point I think it becomes more of a mystery rather than a feat - how can something that is a hole also be an egg. The way I interpret it is - Godzilla surpasses the singular point by growing and thus essentially overtaking the universe (as we know of statements in my blog the worlds are made part of "Its" domain and the red dust creatures twist it to their liking). The singular point gives the Godzilla body nourishment from endless archetypes and eventually Godzilla surpasses the universe, assimilating and if you're beyond the universe you're basically beyond the hole to the universe, right?

This is a valid interpretation, in my opinion. Though I do think the idea that the singularity cannot be "plugged" from within space-time but can still be "consumed" by Godzilla lends some credence to "It's" scale, as it's doing something that is fundamentally impossible from within space-time. Ultimately they're still both emanations of "It", but the entity is vast and multi-faceted: it's not as if every aspect of it is completely working in tandem at all times.

I don't think the bones were a shell of dreams
"it decided to leave its annihilation in the hands of humans, and since the 120mm physical bullets of the Type 10 were not enough to erase it in this world, it even generated its own fuel to burn itself out. It stripped itself of the universe, leaving behind a shell of dreams, then reshaped itself and re-entered its shell."
So "It" left the shell of dreams that is the old body, restructured the body like a pupa and re-entered it.

But the bones are both the remains of its previous body before erasing itself and serve as a singularity, do they not? I took the "reshaped itself and re-entered its shell" less as it literally inhabiting the exact same body and more so re-entering the form of "Godzilla", once more.

I do see that the OD affecting the singular point isn't an anti-feat but so far I don't really see how Pero entering the mind of "It" isn't an anti-feat.

Obviously this is an important point I discussed extensively above, but to just generally reiterate I don't believe simply being inside of the mind of something that views you as a dream matters much if you cannot manipulate it directly, which Pero did not. It merely used the singularity to perform otherwise impossible calculations.

It is probably worth re-translating but I think it is a metaphorical commentary in the sense that Godzilla's existence is impossible to stop due to it infinitely finding ways to win and thus destroying all symbols of hope. It is an unstoppable force that could only be stopped through impossible means.

Through just the machine translation, this is pretty close to the interpretation I'm landing on, which is also why I believe symbolism played a paramount role in Godzilla's defeat. In the prologue, "It" dreams of a man holding what we know to be the Oxygen Destroyer. In the penultimate chapter, Pero III posits that perhaps what Pero II found that allowed their impossible victory was the Oxygen Destroyer (which doesn't seem to exist in that world), of which the Orthogonal Diagonalizer is but an imperfect copy. This seems like pretty clear cut symbolic meta commentary about how the Oxygen Destroyer is forever tied with Godzilla as the means of his death, and that even in this story the Orthogonal Diagonalizer meant to defeat Ultima is merely a reference to the Oxygen Destroyer, irl. The importance of symbolism and what can only be described as miracles next to hard science feels deliberate, on EnJoe's part.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Anyways here's my thoughts. I think we could work on a compromise here but first read my thought on how it could work and then answer me some more questions.
I can see how Az's point could work if we do the following. The Singular Point is programmable. "It" controls Godzilla through the singular point which is its point of contact. If we take the statement of Pero of entering the Singular Point's conciousness as literally entering the SP rather than IT, we could say he reprogrammed it to make Godzilla do something else. Basically imagine you're playing a game and you get hacked a bit and so you can fight the actions of the hacker, like he tries to throw you off a cliff and you turn right instead to prevent it. If that's the relationship here then yeah, you could argue that the actual "It" is 1-A.

Problems arise here.The fact that the singularity is "banished" outside the world suggests that they use singularity interchengeably with what they mean is "it" (since you know, banishing a hole outside the world doesn't really make sense). This would cause some notable issues with the nature of them and would also give an anti-feat for 1-A.

If you can provide a proper response to the argument in my earlier message and the argument above, I could settle for a "likely 1-A" and "likely" whatever abilities it leads to.

I think separation between the singular points and the entirety of "It" can still be aligned with the banishment thing, yeah.

The singular points are manifestations of "It" into reality, but they are not the entirety of "It" the same way the shadow you cast is in your image but isn't really you. We already know that multiple singular points can exist independently within the same reality while still being representations of the same, unfathomably greater thing. We also have a Pero in possession of that "transcendental perspective" stating that the singular point is just a vessel/egg for Godzilla designed for it to reach its apotheosis, so we know the points themselves aren't fully "It" because Godzilla itself is just another representation of "It".

At the same time, the singularity is "a property of space-time, and it cannot be destroyed from within space-time". It is a hole to something outside of and beyond space-time, which is why it needs a shell of higher-dimensional particles to act as a "mirror" into the world. The Orthogonal Diagonalizer does not directly destroy this singularity, but instead breaks down these particles so that there is no longer anything to cast the singularity into the world. The very fact the OD must interact with the shell and not the singularity itself, despite being capable of reprogramming higher-dimensional particles, further suggests the singularity is something else entirely and reinforces the comparison to characters on a tv trying to plug a hole in a screen.

Though this is primarily my opinion. EnJoe's writing isn't exactly the most direct, and having read it through the lens of imperfect translations is a bit of a hurdle.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Hi guys, Sorry for coming late to the party. Long time no see, Azathoth. Hope things are going well for you.

Much appreciated, dude.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Much appreciated, dude.

No problem! We Godzilla fans must support each other. Also, I'm happy that VSBW users like you enjoy my work in the verse for having created all those GodzillaVerses and character profiles.

 

[Arceus0x]

I'll try to reply later today but idk if I will. My head decided that it's gonna do wheelies today so in turn I can barely stand and properly think.

 

[Arceus0x]

I am a bit iffy on how much that matters, but I admit I am unfamiliar with all the intricacies of how the wiki currently handles R>F. In a dream, things may not fully make sense, or you may have certain gaps in your perspective. And sure, your average human may not be a nigh-omniscient god monster, but that doesn't change the fact that any holes they may have in their knowledge or harm that may come to them during a dream is entirely fictional. To me, the fact that Pero represents a hole in Godzilla's vision is less relevant than the fact that neither Pero nor anything else seem to be able to actually interact with Godzilla's true self, and that even the manipulation of higher-dimensional particles only allows the deconstruction of the "shell" around the singularity that gives it presence within the universe. Even ignoring R>F, I'm also not sure if this would stop the possibility of "It" being 1-A through other means, such as the fact the singularity is supposedly not affected directly by the higher-dimensional manipulation of the archetype and fundamentally cannot be destroyed from within space-time.

R>F is simple. There's a higher and lower reality similar to me watching a cartoon. A cartoon cannot attack me unless I give it an AI or make a figurine of a character from it, can it? Similar things happen here. A character that is fiction cannot interact with non-fiction and non-fiction can't really have a full direct connection with something that is fiction either. Whether something like "It" generating archetype through unkown means could be possible but there's further issues I'll talk about later.

I don't believe Pero II messing with "It" is as direct as you do. It's not as though Pero used some sort of mind manipulation on it. In its own words:

• "Maybe consciousness is an exaggeration; it's more like a fragment of the unconscious or a strand of sensation."

It exists inside the singularity as information. Information is basically the only thing that can travel along reality-fiction lines, as if we were to argue otherwise, then we would be ignoring the nature of how fiction itself works in real life. Pero is like a sensation within a dream trying to find a way to wake Godzilla up, but that does not mean doing so would actually have any effect on it. To "It", this is still ultimately a dream.

Let's go back to the prologue for a second, in which "It" is first described.

• "It was dreaming of the past, and in the past it was dreaming of the future, and in the future it was dreaming of dreaming of the future in the past. If there was something that could be called the present for it, then the past and the future were intertwined freely, exhausting all possibilities. The closest thing would be that it is a collection of all kinds of dreams. It knew its beginning and its end, the beginning of the end, the end of the beginning, the end of the end, the beginning of the beginning, but even these beginnings and endings were merely mundane components that made up its self, and it did not consider them to be any special memory or dream or knowledge. It was just there.
• It was constantly beginning its own beginnings and ending its own ends, ending beginnings and beginning to end ends. No two repetitions were the same, and even the slightest fluctuation in the flow would lead the dreams and memories in completely unexpected directions. Reality was memory, and memory was no different from reality.
• Before it stretched the beach of Nogo Village in 1954.
• It was dreaming of waking up from a dream, waking up from that dream again. It was dreaming within a dream and dreaming again. No matter how far it went, the repetition never ended, and what it was seeing was a dream it could never wake up from, and it could also be said to be a dream that no one could enter. It has been defeated and crushed again and again, defeating and crushing everything that stands in its way. It had been overwhelmed, but even that was of little importance to it. It faced similar opponents again and again, encountered new opponents again and again, fought again and again, forever touching off the struggle until it was completely victorious, and even after it had won. It had already defeated even the eternal. It had even defeated its own defeat, and destroyed everything in the worlds in which it was defeated."

Even ignoring the possibility of any sort of dream hierarchy and just considering each "dream" to effectively be an avatar of Godzilla like we did earlier, this prologue makes it abundantly clear that "Godzilla" ostensibly being defeated has no effect on the true entity whatsoever. It's just a process that is repeated endlessly, and as directly stated, "even these beginnings and endings were merely mundane components that made up its self, and it did not consider them to be any special memory or dream or knowledge."

The events of the story are not unique. They are a repetition of what has already happened, is happening, and will happen again, endlessly. Yet "It" still remains, because these dreams are how it experiences existence. Godzilla as we experience in the story may be "It", but it is no more special than any other dreamt up incarnation of the same "It" that has come before or will come again, on endless other worlds.

I will agree that the interpretation of Pero manipulating information on the level of the singularity is possible. Going back to the cartoon character, if the cartoon is self aware and manages to affect let's say the subtitles of the cartoon, which are still fictional, or affect tools to activate the cartoon, which are also not really real, it would fit the idea that It is 1-A. This is a possibility mind you since the differentiation of singlar point and "It" is a bit vague from the side of Pero, who originally didn't know "It" to the same extent.

My problem with this largely still remains that Pero did not hijack Godzilla's mind, or anything. By its own admittance, "consciousness" was an exaggeration of its own importance, and we're told Godzilla was still perfectly capable of just destroying SHIVA and Pero along with it. Repeating a quote from earlier:

• "The flames spewed from Godzilla's mouth will burn the world, Yun Arikawa, and even Shiva. The robot that had collapsed beside Yun Arikawa and the entity known as Pero II that had been running around noisily within the singularity should have been erased together, in one fell swoop, in one breath. From then on, there was no way that anything in the world could stop Godzilla. Without the singularity, there was no way that Godzilla, who had the singularity as one of his organs, could be defeated. The time had come for that singularity to transform into Godzilla."

Even the use of "running around noisily within the singularity" draws more of a comparison between Pero and an obnoxious stray thought than something controlling Godzilla's conscience.

sure

Yes, the singularity has a clear effect on space-time, but that's also because it creates a shell out of higher-dimensional particles. I don't think this contradicts the other statement about the singularity being fundamentally indestructible from within space-time due to not truly existing within it. It still needs the archetype particles to function as a "mirror" into reality.

This is a valid interpretation, in my opinion. Though I do think the idea that the singularity cannot be "plugged" from within space-time but can still be "consumed" by Godzilla lends some credence to "It's" scale, as it's doing something that is fundamentally impossible from within space-time. Ultimately they're still both emanations of "It", but the entity is vast and multi-faceted: it's not as if every aspect of it is completely working in tandem at all times.

One issue I have with your opinion is that I don't think the singularity is anywhere near 1-A, that's the issue. In fact, it blatantly cannot be since Pero entered it and as I said, you shouldn't be able to enter "It" if its 1-A as otherwise it contradicts the rules.
Then there's another factor - the singular point using the archetype as a means to keep itself anchored to the world. The special thing about the archetype is that it has a component in countless dimensions at least as we know that it has a cross section in the third and fourth dimensions and presumably higher since they're used to connect to said countless dimensions. This poses an issue yet again, a 1-A object cannot use lower reality objects (which archetypes objectively are) to anchor itself to the lower world. Same way you can't really fit into a cartoon in a literal sense due to it being mere fiction. You can write yourself into it but a lower reality simply cannot hold something of a higher reality no matter how hard you try.

But the bones are both the remains of its previous body before erasing itself and serve as a singularity, do they not? I took the "reshaped itself and re-entered its shell" less as it literally inhabiting the exact same body and more so re-entering the form of "Godzilla", once more.

It's true but it is stated that the singularity hasn't fully formed yet at that point that's why the bones remained. Godzilla is "It" since its just a naming convention but yes, "It" conciously re-enters the Godzilla Body after its done rearranging it on a molecular level. In the metaphor of it being a game "It" is playing as character whose name is "Godzilla" and it uses the wifi - the singularity - to connect to the game. "It" wasn't content with the character and decided to let it die so it could re-make it and re-distribute its special stats (new vegas moment) before entering the game again and playing it.

Obviously this is an important point I discussed extensively above, but to just generally reiterate I don't believe simply being inside of the mind of something that views you as a dream matters much if you cannot manipulate it directly, which Pero did not. It merely used the singularity to perform otherwise impossible calculations.

As I said, I don't think the singularity is 1-A at any point and being in the mind of something 1-A should be fundamentally impossible in the first place. I think if we interpret it as Pero messing with the connection between IT and Godzilla by reprogramming the singular point - it'd be possible to argue for 1-A "It" but besides other major issues i'll bring up there's still the issue of the singularity being a tributary of "It" which suggests it is supposed to be on the same level, thus making it a connection between r and f and thus making it unusable beyond dimensional differences.

Through just the machine translation, this is pretty close to the interpretation I'm landing on, which is also why I believe symbolism played a paramount role in Godzilla's defeat. In the prologue, "It" dreams of a man holding what we know to be the Oxygen Destroyer. In the penultimate chapter, Pero III posits that perhaps what Pero II found that allowed their impossible victory was the Oxygen Destroyer (which doesn't seem to exist in that world), of which the Orthogonal Diagonalizer is but an imperfect copy. This seems like pretty clear cut symbolic meta commentary about how the Oxygen Destroyer is forever tied with Godzilla as the means of his death, and that even in this story the Orthogonal Diagonalizer meant to defeat Ultima is merely a reference to the Oxygen Destroyer, irl. The importance of symbolism and what can only be described as miracles next to hard science feels deliberate, on EnJoe's part.

yea

 

[Arceus0x]

I think separation between the singular points and the entirety of "It" can still be aligned with the banishment thing, yeah.

The singular points are manifestations of "It" into reality, but they are not the entirety of "It" the same way the shadow you cast is in your image but isn't really you. We already know that multiple singular points can exist independently within the same reality while still being representations of the same, unfathomably greater thing. We also have a Pero in possession of that "transcendental perspective" stating that the singular point is just a vessel/egg for Godzilla designed for it to reach its apotheosis, so we know the points themselves aren't fully "It" because Godzilla itself is just another representation of "It".

At the same time, the singularity is "a property of space-time, and it cannot be destroyed from within space-time". It is a hole to something outside of and beyond space-time, which is why it needs a shell of higher-dimensional particles to act as a "mirror" into the world. The Orthogonal Diagonalizer does not directly destroy this singularity, but instead breaks down these particles so that there is no longer anything to cast the singularity into the world. The very fact the OD must interact with the shell and not the singularity itself, despite being capable of reprogramming higher-dimensional particles, further suggests the singularity is something else entirely and reinforces the comparison to characters on a tv trying to plug a hole in a screen.

Though this is primarily my opinion. EnJoe's writing isn't exactly the most direct, and having read it through the lens of imperfect translations is a bit of a hurdle.

i'll leave this statement without proper reply since issues with my hypothesis I already brought up in the upper reply. I'll now write out a few other issues that cause trouble for 1-A.

 

[Arceus0x]

So here's something I found.
Here's the text first, it's long.

Spoiler: Big text

They were taking on the role of new eyes for "it. In the same way that an eye with only the mechanism of a pinhole camera has acquired advanced functions, they have come to function as eyes that look down on dimensions. For them, the directions of the past and future were no different from the threads of their own nest. Prey captured in the past were sent into the future, and creatures captured in the future were also sent into the past. In this sense, everything had already been decided from the past to the future, and their only job was to reconfirm the details that had already been decided. But they were only supposed to be. They were now mending frayed silver threads, and golden threads could be seen forming new veins around the frayed threads. The threads connecting Echigo and Tokyo were breaking the threads of the silver threads and reconnecting them in a different way, disrupting the past and the future. At the center of this disturbance is a silvery drive called the Jet Jaguar. In their eyes, the Jet Jaguar, like "It," appears to be a node, an accumulation point for lines of force. There exists a different information network, they realized, which is also covering the earth. The network, which called itself Naratake, spoke a different language, seemed to have a different purpose, and could not communicate with them. August 4, 2003. On August 4, 2003, a Jet Jaguar is seen at a certain port facility on the Chiba side of Tokyo Bay. It was nestled in a yacht harbor, a fishing port, a loading dock, and an industrial plant. The jet jaguars that appear there are not representations on the information network, but are equipped with the spines of "beasts" instead of spears. In that dimension, they too were not representations on the information network created by It, but physical entities with eight legs. The jet jaguar swings its spear and cuts through the information network formed by them. The multiple eyes of the Jet Jaguar are watching as its predetermined destiny is being carved out anew. The spears of the jet jaguars cut through the veins of information, and at the same time, their bodies were also cut into pieces one after another. They regenerate their bodies. They cut, duplicate, and splice the information necessary for that purpose.

And here's some more

Spoiler: a bit more text

As they began to take for granted not only the archetypes that sprang endlessly from "it" or the singularity, but also the materials of this world, they were surrounded by materials to regenerate and build their bodies.

So these 2 texts do a very weird thing of giving more 1-A evidence and also give potential 1-A anti-feats.
First there's the statement that the creatures became eyes for "It" to look down on dimensions, something "It" presumably cannot do normally which suggests that it is beyond said dimensions.
At the same time there's another issue.
The information network is created by "It" and yet it is being destroyed by JJ wielding the anguirus spear which has a higher dimensional level of existence due to being made of archetype.
Together this casts more doubt on the fact that "It" is 1-A but also doesn't make 1-A impossible either since technically its never stated that "It" is on the same level as the net...except for the part where "It" is stated to be a node on that net similarly to JJ. This puts a hard question - how can something 1-A be a node of a net that is dimensional in nature?

Then there's further text
"For the first time, he could see, intuit and understand that the creature, along with the jet jaguar, was the source of all the disturbances that continued to aggravate him. The jet jaguar was certainly the center of something, but it was the creature that was closer to the center. It searches through its own memories of the web, recalling the creature and trying to figure out where it is going."
which ends up leading to even more questions than before.

Now one thing we know is that "dimensions" in this case is 次元 - jigen. The same word was used a few paragraphs higher in the countless dimension statement (which explicitly talks about the three dimensions of space and one of flow, meaning that it is very much mathematical dimensions what's being talked about).

This could also be treated as the "net" was created inside of the universe itself and we also know that "it" and Godzilla are used interchengeably which leads to the vagueness of which part is attributed to the higher "It" and which to the lower.
This leads to the issue that we definitely cannot give a direct 1-A rating, although a possibly 1-A rating could maybe work.

Finally there's the issue of the following statement.
"Their many eyes, somewhere out there in the open sky, revealed a canopy of golden lace-like structures, like a spider's web holding drops of water in the morning dew, or a beadwork of countless spherical mirrors reflecting each other. The mysterious existence was reassembling and reassembling the details as if it had a will of its own. The source of the flow was the "source" of the stream, from which a thin line took the shape of small creatures such as shrimp and crabs, and then split and grew into starfish and jellyfish-like forms, some of which grew longer like sea serpents, some of which flapped their wings to the sky, and some of which stepped on the earth with their own feet and landed on this world."
So the creatures are implied to be connected by a "thin thread" to whatever is beyond sight.

I can also find counter arguments to the anti-feat for 1-A here
"They were now moving away from dependence on the red dust and adapting daily to the energy they needed to operate from the surrounding material. The netting is to mark up the world. Multiple eyes see the world in different ways."
Which in turn implies that the net of information is only located and used within the universe.

Spoiler: mullings over implications

Now this is cool and all but this leads me to the question - is the universe countless-D then? Cause if the antennae view only the universe it would mean that there's not only 4 dimensions but countless in it since they were observing all the possibilities.

 

[Arceus0x]

To make a final statement on this whole thing - I have 2 choices.

Either we give "It" 1-B, possibly 1-A

Or we do nothing.

I think I will listen to what Az has to say at the end, see if he has any other thoughts about it and reply if I find fault in them, but for the most part I think i'll just leave it to the evaluating staff.

Qawsdef and LordGriffin have helped evaluate SP threads before, maybe they're good here. If Ultima was here maybe it'd be different but afaik he only participated in one mediocre attempt at 1-A upgrades for SP which he disagreed with so idk if he'd be of help. Overall, let's get some more staff opinions at this point.