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I think that's reasonable.
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(GRACE) Adding Pokemon Masters to the canon
- Thread starter Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
- Start date
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- pokémon pokemon masters
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If its genuinely just character lore thats confirmed to align with canon, then how much of the actual 'events being canon' can we use?
Like, Zinnia having Rayquaza, when canonically she wasn't the one who got it in favour of the player character. Theres a lot of characters that just own random legendaries (that are also shiny?) for the sake of it,
Like, Zinnia having Rayquaza, when canonically she wasn't the one who got it in favour of the player character. Theres a lot of characters that just own random legendaries (that are also shiny?) for the sake of it,
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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- #123
Good thing I answered that about 5 times already.
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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- #125
Thank you!!
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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- #126
Please, third mod, hear my call.
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You didnt though, and you're not going to.
They're alternate what-if versions, and literally every other other verse on the wiki in similar circumstance make separate profiles for them.
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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- #128
They are not "alternate what-if versions", I debunked that immediately and in the FAQs. That is also untrue, pretty much no video game verse makes new profiles for every sequel game.
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There are.
Just because a few characters like Cyrus and Florian were confirmed to come from alternate realities doesnt then mean every single character came from an alternate reality. and if they DID, they would then be different versions of the characters. That should already be obvious by the fact Masters EX chooses specific protags and specific story beats. Make a list of EVERY character confirmed to have entered through Hoopa's rings. Even then, if they ARE confirmed to be different versions of the character, you have to make separate profiles like with Cyrus.
They arent profiles for 'sequel games', stop pretending like Masters EX is a mainline sequel as opposed to a gacha spinoff. If the characters were literally separate versions of themselves than in the main game, then yeah, they would qualify for their own profile instead of compositing all of their appearances.
You cant have a Zinnia profile that follows everything in ORAS, then also mixes it with Masters EX that goes against the secondary canon by giving her a Rayquaza she shouldnt have. You also shouldnt be compositing profiles. That then deems Masters EX canon refuted since it would be trying to take over what the mainline is saying
Just because a few characters like Cyrus and Florian were confirmed to come from alternate realities doesnt then mean every single character came from an alternate reality. and if they DID, they would then be different versions of the characters. That should already be obvious by the fact Masters EX chooses specific protags and specific story beats. Make a list of EVERY character confirmed to have entered through Hoopa's rings. Even then, if they ARE confirmed to be different versions of the character, you have to make separate profiles like with Cyrus.
They arent profiles for 'sequel games', stop pretending like Masters EX is a mainline sequel as opposed to a gacha spinoff. If the characters were literally separate versions of themselves than in the main game, then yeah, they would qualify for their own profile instead of compositing all of their appearances.
You cant have a Zinnia profile that follows everything in ORAS, then also mixes it with Masters EX that goes against the secondary canon by giving her a Rayquaza she shouldnt have. You also shouldnt be compositing profiles. That then deems Masters EX canon refuted since it would be trying to take over what the mainline is saying
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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- #130
It's in the main game timeline, remember? I never said every single person in the game is from an alternate universe, just the people who otherwise wouldn't make sense to be. And obviously I wouldn't be adding Florian to Juliana's profile.
I just proved Masters is in the main canon, remember? I'm not proposing to add characters who are canonically from another universe onto main game profiles (even though people did that for Team Rainbow Rocket versions of the villains for some reason...)
Masters EX IS secondary canon. You're definitely using this wording on purpose. And why can't Zinnia have Rayquaza? Sabrina had Mewtwo in B2W2.
I just proved Masters is in the main canon, remember? I'm not proposing to add characters who are canonically from another universe onto main game profiles (even though people did that for Team Rainbow Rocket versions of the villains for some reason...)
Masters EX IS secondary canon. You're definitely using this wording on purpose. And why can't Zinnia have Rayquaza? Sabrina had Mewtwo in B2W2.
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It isnt though. If you're trying to claim that ALL these characters are together but now cherrypicking which ones you assume came from Hoopas portal without confirmation, then thats incredibly disingenuine.
Its a mobile gacha game, NOT mainline canon. If its being treated as secondary canon, then it isnt part of the main timeline whatsoever, and instead just possesses 'canon elements' that are free to be retconned at any moment should the main story need to be.
No, you didnt. You can keep saying 'oh I debunked this' 'Oh i proved this', but it doesnt make it any less sure lol. Going 'remember?' as if you're trying to gaslight isnt wanted either thanks, ive been pretty clear that i do NOT agree with your reasoning.
The only thing that statement proved was 'canon' was the character writing, NOTHING to do with the events or the pokemon they canonically own outside of main game. You're trying to ignore this fact so bad.
Theres no way you're trying to use that temporary online Pokemon World Tournament event to say Sabrina canonically has Mewtwo lol. Her page on this wiki doesnt even try to use that.
Zinnia cant have Rayquaza because Brendan/May/ORAS protag were the ones who were chosen by it and use it. Not her. She specifically was NOT chosen in main game. Stop trying to retcon mainline to fit Masters EX
Its only canon by confirmation of character writing, which doesnt go under them actually having it. and even then it contradicts what the mainline says so ergo cant be used.
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Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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- #132
Good thing they literally tell you everything in the game itself because they figured people like you would be saying this. Disingenuous*, by the way.
Did you even read the original post?
"If it's secondary canon, it's noncanon"
Yes, because you literally would not be asking these questions if you were not this biased and had read the original post. Of course since you keep repeating these exact same questions over and over and over again, it's doubtful you're reading my responses either.
Yeah, you're just lying at this point hoping to convince someone that this isn't comprehensive proof of Masters being canon. I literally explain, even in the original post, what that scan implies, and even then I have much more proof than that scan.
Now who's cherrypicking canon? Our Kanto pages have practically been outdated upon their creation, and nobody is allowed to revise them.
Okay, so you haven't played her event... the one where she was finally chosen. You really thought lying about me, to me, was going to convince me?
You really thought I convinced 10 people with one scan? You should actually read the original post sometime, it's a good read.
Yeah, you're doing exactly what I predicted you were going to do (skipping over points and forcing me to explain things multiple times over in an attempt to dissuade people from agreeing), so I'm just not going to respond to you from now on.
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They dont though. The answer just said that they align their portrayals of the characters in Masters to their canon counterparts. Thats IT. Nothing about Masters EX and the events taken place being canon. Otherwise you'd actually have some evidence.
Your original post isnt anything. I've read it, i've went over each out of 4 points numerous times, stop forgetting. I still dont agree and ive told you over and over why not, if you could stop taking it as a personal attack
Can you stop blatantly lying on what im saying? Secondary canon doesnt take precedence over mainline. If it contradicts mainline, we use mainline over it. And Masters EX does that in spades. This OP was trying to make it canon, but it was only agreed uponn that it could be used as secondary (Which you havent bothered to update the OP unless its to add a list of names to agree. Clearly you only want to hear one thing.)
"If people disagree with me trying to make everythign in Pokemon scale to Low 2-C, they are biased"
Masters EX isnt main canon. Its being agreed upon to be secondary canon, which you need to learn the meaning of, because it doesnt mean you can just start retconning mainline over it
What you 'explain' the scan is implying is literally your subjective opinion. You've chosen to take it in a way that means EVERYTHING in masters ex is canon, meanwhile the comment is blatantly saying that they were only trying to make the portrayal of character writing canon.
The world tournament temporary event is not a mainline thing no. Fantina, Falkner and Sabrina do NOT possess those legendaries just because of a temporary promotional event. That doesnt even make sense in the context of the verse
No, i dont play Masters EX. Its its own self-contained story, and Rayquaza is already canonically owned by the trainer character, NOT Zinnia. The only way to explain it is its an alternate version of the character and that Rayquaza, but then that constitutes a separate profile, NOT the one thats being used to record mainline events where she isnt chosen.
Ive already read your stuff. You were purposefully trying to hide the thread, and you got completely FRA chained. People agreed upon it being secondary canon, not canon and even then this wiki still hasn't got its stuff together for Pokemon
How self-entitled do you have to be to expect everyone to just 100% agree with you just because you think you've explained it from your own take. Ive read your OP, ive already went over numerous times why they arent solid enough, but you're ignoring all of that.
Dont respond then, you aren't giving anything of substance other than yet again trying to escalate. I dont agree with you, ive said why, and its not because its some personal attack. You only try to take the things that will make Pokemon seem super strong over a 8 year old Death Battle result, without considering the validity or criticality of it. It's so jarring
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Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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- #136
We? You haven't played the game, that wouldn't involve you. Besides, the discussion would entirely be... looking at the feats.
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You dont need to have to play the game and waste your life savings in gacha game hell in order to talk about it. I know what the games about, every event is at my disposal on youtube with ppl i can ask, i know the context of the mainline and can instantly spot a contradiction. Ill be fine thx
Stop with the gatekeeping. If you're too scared of having someone oppose you in points, keep it to yourself, but otherwise im going to talk about the verse i know, and you're not gonna be stopping me.
No, not just feats, but the powers/abilities/pokemon the characters own if applicable. But thats all moot if the character completely contradicts the main canon in the mainline timeline, and thus its an alternate version. Thats what the secondary canon will be treated as, which you still havent updated the OP to mention that (nor filled in the disagree section so it appears more attractive)
Quite frankly though, you've yet to prove the entire game in itself is canon sequal, only providing a statement that says the characters are WRITTEN to be in-character when taking part in these events. Which doesnt rule out them being alternate versions to the mainline, and this being just another blip in the pokemon mutliverse compared to mainline (which would then warrant separate profiles, and not giving mainline characters the unique mons from masters ex)
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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- #138
I haven't spent a cent on Pokemon Masters, and I've collected hundreds of scans for it. Good for you, but even if you watched every cutscene in the game, you still wouldn't know what hax and more importantly Resistances are applied to which Pokemon.
It really feels like you want people to need your express permission to add Masters stuff, and forgive me if I'm unconcerned with the opinions of someone who very frequently displays his lack of knowledge on the series, is frequently caught lying about the series, and is not listed as a knowledgeable member or even a Supporter of the verse.
What do you think feats are? And it's a good thing Pokemon very rarely ever says someone cannot do something or learn it later on, which Masters is. I didn't propose secondary canon. They decided it fits secondary canon better. Even if I agree, that's not what I said. And you aren't even disagreeing with my points, you're just strawmanning things to be angry about to make this thread controversial.
Ok yeah, you're trolling. I gave magnitudes more than the one scan you always default to, and you don't even address most of what the one scan implies.
It really feels like you want people to need your express permission to add Masters stuff, and forgive me if I'm unconcerned with the opinions of someone who very frequently displays his lack of knowledge on the series, is frequently caught lying about the series, and is not listed as a knowledgeable member or even a Supporter of the verse.
What do you think feats are? And it's a good thing Pokemon very rarely ever says someone cannot do something or learn it later on, which Masters is. I didn't propose secondary canon. They decided it fits secondary canon better. Even if I agree, that's not what I said. And you aren't even disagreeing with my points, you're just strawmanning things to be angry about to make this thread controversial.
Ok yeah, you're trolling. I gave magnitudes more than the one scan you always default to, and you don't even address most of what the one scan implies.
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Nobodys jealous of you for this. Personally, i dont think we need to add every single crazy stretched ability any pokemon displays in the hundreds of different 'games' pokemon has, and would rather look at the consistent stuff. Its getting so much for you that you use Pokemon Shuffle to try and scale. You cant fathom that i dont engage and think the same way about this verse as you do.
The Pokemon verse on this wiki in general has a huge compositing issue with the profiles. Thsi is only going to add to it and make it worse
Yeah, and these are some bold accusations coming from someone whose infamous and controversial for Pokemon scaling even outside of this wiki. Im not asking for you to be 'concerned with my opinions', but the verse doesnt Belong to you, and other people than you are allowed to edit and talk about the verse rather than letting you get away with these extreme issues.
Ive never been caught 'lying about the series' just because i disagree with you. ANYBODY can put their names on the verse page for literally NOTHING. I dont agree with the current need for Supporters/Opponents/Neutral personally so im going to avoid partaking in it, and I dont want to put my name as a 'knowledgable member' because that comes with the responsibility of ppl contacting you by message with questions which i dont want to do for Pokemon. It doesnt mean i dont know the series ive been playing for almost two decades now lol. I dont live on this wiki, its a hobby
Feats are showings of what the character can do, but that isnt a term for the standard equipment and overall abilities they're going to use no. Its a big change and we cant just brush it all off and leave it to you because you prefer it that way. The wiki is a collaborative effort
Yeah, and secondary canon IS whats being agreed upon. So you're better off changing the OP and keeping things up to date other than you trying to twist the narrative here. And even then, an actual discussion will probably be able to debunk 95% of the prominent characters masters ex versions.
'you aren't disagreeing with my points', Yeah, I am actually. Idk why you're still trying to gaslight here
'Magnitudes'
You have 4 main points, only 1 of which actually saying anything about the canon status of Masters EX with the rest being small jokes we shouldnt ride huge revisions over, and things like 'oh the website says what game they originated from', which is you only deciding to interpret this in the way you see fit.
I dont AGREE with how you are interpreting your scans. Ive addressed all 4 of your main points consistently throughout the thread and its just a case that we dont agree.
Now try and compare that to the many, many ways Masters EX contradicts itself and proves it doesnt align with mainline. But you dont wanna talk about that.
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Agree.
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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- Thread starter
- #142
I don't remember bragging. And because you can't access them, they're suddenly crazy and stretched? This is about Pokemon Masters, not Shuffle. Engaging with the verse less than I do means that you've spent less time becoming knowledgeable in the verse and more importantly collecting feats for it.
Pokemon is actually one of the best monster franchises about this. Digimon actively admits to compositing and they don't get in trouble.
I'm not controversial for being wrong, I'm controversial for my active hatred of Digimon. I have never once been allowed to make a single major edit I've ever wanted to, so I'm well aware of how little people want me.
You just were, like 5 times. You don't even care enough about Pokemon to do the extremely easy stuff, and I've only ever been messaged like twice ever. Pokemon VS debating is nowhere near as big as almost all other verses.
Feats can involve both of those things. The way you act in general proves how little "collaboration" actually helps, considering you usually add a net negative to all discussions you join, and even then I never wanted to do literally everything myself... though now you're making me consider it.
Yeah, not doing either. And you've yet to debunk anything, much less Masters stuff you literally aren't aware happens.
You're making stuff up to disagree with.
Thank you for proving me right about everything.
You have not, just lied about the one.
You haven't played the game, I have, so I know you're lying about Masters contradicting itself.
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No, it doesnt. Thats not how it works whatsoever. If anything, your compulsion to stretch and have to composite every single bit of Pokemon media makes it less about being knowledgable and more trying your best to make the verse as high-ended busted as possible
Leave your Digimon hate out of this too. This all started because you cant get over an 8 year old DB result.
You're controversial for many other things too from what ive heard, but thats besides the point. Stop dragging Pokemon through this just because of this hate bias against Digimon. No one else cares.
Im not entertaining your weird accusations any longer. Me not agreeing with you doesnt mean im 'lying'?
Its not a negative to just stop you from doing absolutely anything you want with the verse without discussion, acting as if only you can direct the verse. You havent got the power or authority to 'do literally everything yourself', this isnt a dictatorship
You weren't going to admit its been 'debunked' literally no matter what i say. Its not even a debunking, and more so your points arent specific or soundly integrated well enough. Can you notice how none of your points are all outside sources you're not taking in any way other than the narrative you're twisting
You literally had to try and say the mainline canon was 'retconned' on a page before so that the Masters EX version wasnt contradictory material. You know as well as i do that Masters EX contradicts being main canon many many times, otherwise you wouldnt have even attempted this.
I dont need to play the game to give input. Im aware of the mainline games, im aware of the events and can refer to them anytime. Ive gave many many examples of Masters EX not aligning to the confirmed mainline story beats throughout the thread that you have refused to respond to.
Stop the gatekeeping
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@Jinx666 @Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
Both of you need to stop arguing like this, especially if you're both going to be making accusations and attacking each other's character.
If we're just waiting on one more mod, then let's just wait on one more mod.
Both of you need to stop arguing like this, especially if you're both going to be making accusations and attacking each other's character.
If we're just waiting on one more mod, then let's just wait on one more mod.
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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- #145
Please God, just let one more mod notice this post
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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- #147
FinePoint and DarkDragonMedeus both support it.Which staff members think what here so far?
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That's a bit misleading.
I'm not entirely opposed to it, but I much prefer Jinx's proposal.
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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- #149
His proposal was for me not to do everything. Initially you said you supported it as secondary canon, so how is it different now?
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I'm talking about this: "Why not literally just opt for making Masters-specific profiles instead of making it inconsistent?"
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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- #151
Oh. Obviously that would work for some characters like Kris or Lyra, but for many characters it just isn't inconsistent and they directly tell you it's the person.
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I'll elaborate, since I feel like my opinion can't really be easily summarized as "agree or disagrees".
Proposals I think would be unreasonable: Declaring it entirely non-canon and not using it at all.
Proposals I think would be reasonable: Secondary canon, new keys, new profiles, some combination of the previous three.
Proposal which I personally prefer: New profiles.
Proposals I think would be unreasonable: Declaring it entirely non-canon and not using it at all.
Proposals I think would be reasonable: Secondary canon, new keys, new profiles, some combination of the previous three.
Proposal which I personally prefer: New profiles.
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Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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- #154
Actually, can't Ant just agree with it himself and it would pass?
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I kind of got lost here.
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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- #156
We just need to know you still agree with it.
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Or if you agree with Jinx's points
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This looks alright to me.
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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- #159
Alright, all we need is that fateful third mod vote and (with safeguards) we can start applying stuff.
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He's saying he prefers new profiles lol
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