Yuta Okkotsu vs Fern (Jujutsu Kaisen vs Frieren: Beyond Journey’s End)

[BahamutQ0]

Equalizing speed is unnecessary. Keep it as it was.

 

[Catbowtie]

TS handicapping Fern because Yuta was losing. Jujutsu Kaisen fans man.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Since others also feel it was an unnecessary change I’ll revert it

"She wins so he loses, so let's handicap her instead", ain't the play, at that point why even make the match? At that point why not handicap Yuta too, make it so he doesn't have CE?
If a character has an advantage that enables them to win, you don't take it away because "oh the other dude is losing now", like hypothetically if the tables turn and Yuta starts winning now, you gonna remove the thing that gives him an edge so it 180's again? I would expect so given you're attempting to do it now.

It makes no sense, if you aren't satisfied with the outcome, don't make the match in the first place just to change it after wasting everyone's time for 100 posts, you should've equalized speed from the first few posts in, not after the match is decided.

You seem so dead set on thinking I have some kind of agenda to push. I already said it isn’t about making Yuta win but that based on your arguments I believed he had nothing he could do and would just die.

For the love of God. I don’t know Fern that well. I saw relatively similar AP and that she had higher speed and Yuta had more hax and thought it would be a decent match. Stop accusing people of some weird bias just because they do something you dislike.

 

[Chariot190]

Im voting Yuta, starting distance is 10 meters, Fern having range advantage gives her nothing here, she wont be able to utilize it effectively,

She's 3x faster than him.

Yuta already fought opponents with similiar attack patterns(Ryu), superior Ap, way more abilities and tons of versatility unlike fern

He's never fought anyone as fast as her, he's never fought anyone who's firing as many attacks as her a second. with as much control over said attacks as she has, which ALSO have as big of AOE as her, mind you all her attacks have piercing.

Fern doesn't have an "attack" pattern, she can freely control every single projectile she fires.
Fern's damage boost exceeds Ryu's AP too btw, she can one shot gore characters who her attacks otherwise can't even touch.

Having way more abilities doesn't mean a thing if said abilities don't actually do anything of value.

Yuta goes for cqc,

And she's 3x faster than him and he's being hit by like 40 attacks a second, all of which will harm him just fine, have fun doing that.

tanks and regens through any and all of her tanks,

Tanks? They're basically the same AP, regen? If she damage boosts he really can't, his regen is nowhere near good enough, hell his regen isn't even good enough without Mana density slop, JJK regen isn't exactly the greatest it's mid af. Especially given how many attacks a second he's dealing with, it's not just one or two wounds.

then breaks her barriers with physical strikes and kills her,

This is actual insanity, you don't think she's going to like, ya know, make sure he doesn't get close? She has better mobility than him and avoids CQC characters like her life depends on it, because it does.

if needed just forces restrains her with partially manifested Rika

How? She outranges Rika's manifestation range and can just avoid it.

If he somehow gets overwhelmed,

Which he will.

he puts the ring on,

How is he having time to do that when he's being hit by like 100 attacks a second?

pops domain and Fern is getting fried by sure hit Jacob's ladder/killed

Why would Fern even be close to him at that point? Especially given you've argued he's going to attempt to get into CQC first, which is something she knows to stay as far away as possible from. The mere fact he attempts that first would make her go "oh I should stay far away so he can never get close to me".

by Thin ice breaker that can bypass defenses,

Hey funny thing, literally every one of her attacks does that too. And her forcefields are layered with runes to prevent attacks that can do that (Like her own attack actually). Hence the whole 1 layer thing as stated on the magic page.

or just curbstomped by Rika and Yuta's amped physicals from 2 sides.

I like how we're now just pretending Fern stands there and doesn't move or act at all.

 

[Mommyleona]

curse res. So none of that speech shit is gonna fly,

no she doesnt, she has resistance to sleep manipulation on her profile, and that resistance is bad to begin with, shes getting incapacitated at best, and outright explodes at worst. and yuta starts with that once he goes into his 5 minute mode

 

[Chariot190]

Since others also feel it was an unnecessary change I’ll revert it

You seem so dead set on thinking I have some kind of agenda to push. I already said it isn’t about making Yuta win but that based on your arguments I believed he had nothing he could do and would just die.

For the love of God. I don’t know Fern that well. I saw relatively similar AP and that she had higher speed and Yuta had more hax and thought it would be a decent match. Stop accusing people of some weird bias just because they do something you dislike.

I didn't accuse you of anything beyond wasting people's time or things you simply did, whether or not you had an agenda is something I never claimed, but regardless, you would have been wasting our time because who changes and basically resets a match 100 posts in? Don't jump to conclusions.
If you don't know characters that well, I'd just avoid making matches with them tbh or ask someone who does, that way we don't get an ol classic Robo.

 

[Chariot190]

no she doesnt, she has resistance to sleep manipulation on her profile,

Did we not discuss this? If you wanna be ignorant, at least don't out yourself immediately by doing so.

and that resistance is bad to begin with

"She spent hours unaffected by a curse that instantly affected hundreds of others, that's bad res".
Man please stop.

, shes getting incapacitated at best, and outright explodes at worst. and yuta starts with that once he goes into his 5 minute mode

"He starts with that once he does this thing he doesn't start with".

 

[Chariot190]

**** it, give me a day I'm just gonna make a curse res CRT for both her and Frieren if we wanna be obtuse.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Honestly I thought Fern was at 6 votes. Turns out it’s 7. So that’s grace

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

**** it, give me a day I'm just gonna make a curse res CRT for both her and Frieren if we wanna be obtuse.

You’re welcome to but idk if it actually would affect the matchup since sorcerers have curse resistance as well

You said there were other abilities that you wanted to add. Will those take long?

 

[Chariot190]

You’re welcome to but idk if it actually would affect the matchup since sorcerers have curse resistance as well

Her's definitely isn't baseline. Idk if that's better than fodder but she has decent feats, and then obviously Frieren has even better feats and then priests have straight up immunity due to divine protection. I need to go grab shit to see how good hers would end up exactly tho.

You said there were other abilities that you wanted to add. Will those take long?

Yes. Changing Zoltraak and stuff would take awhile, tbh I already started awhile ago and stopped, I have up to about ch45 compiled, but manga is at 140ch~ so, would take awhile for a complete overhaul. Prob two weeks, and I'm not doing that atm, I'm working on more important shit atm.

Zoltraak change would just clean her win/losses anyway, that shit has duraneg tbhsmhngl.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Yes. Changing Zoltraak and stuff would take awhile, tbh I already started awhile ago and stopped, I have up to about ch45 compiled, but manga is at 140ch~ so, would take awhile for a complete overhaul. Prob two weeks, and I'm not doing that atm, I'm working on more important shit atm.

Zoltraak change would just clean her win/losses anyway, that shit has duraneg tbhsmhngl.

Woof you’ve got your work cut out for you.

When you said their profiles were mid you really weren't joking. When was the last time the Frieren verse profiles got updated

 

[Catbowtie]

It's up to the Jujutsu Kaisen fans to argue convincingly for their character. (I think) Absolutely no one mentioned Yuta has RCT, Curtains, and can use layered invisible slashes.

The initial range of 10 meters means Yuta can go for a quick Rika manifestation and just restrain Fern, or Yuta can do it as he realizes Fern is creating distance. Yuta can use a Curtain to make himself invisible to Fern, as I'm pretty sure Curtain makes Yuta entirely imperceptible to Fern's senses besides ESP. If Yuta has even an ounce of the same expertise Uro had with Sky Manipulation, he can can wrap himself in a layer of Sky Manipulation.

There IS stuff Yuta can do to win, Jujutsu Supporters just aren't doing a good job off arguing it, and Chariot's arguments are more convincing anyways

 

[Chariot190]

Woof you’ve got your work cut out for you.

When you said their profiles were mid you really weren't joking. When was the last time the Frieren verse profiles got updated

I updated Ubel awhile ago but idk.
I think she had 7-A ED put on her recently, but most changes have been for Frieren herself, not Fern, Stark and others. Fern is missing a few things we already accept for Frieren even.

It's just a bunch of small changes like AOE, some magic she doesn't use that often, random bit feats (could prob upgrade stats a bit, I know she has a HHS feat somewhere), but the only real big game changing things is that Zoltraak is duraneg for actual match slop. Idk WHY we removed that shit anyway, it's whole premise is that.

It's up to the Jujutsu Kaisen fans to argue convincingly for their character. (I think) Absolutely no one mentioned Yuta has RCT, Curtains, and can use layered invisible slashes.

The initial range of 10 meters means Yuta can go for a quick Rika manifestation and just restrain Fern, or Yuta can do it as he realizes Fern is creating distance.

Clairvoyance and is quicker, should be fully capable of dodging Rika grabbing her.

Yuta can use a Curtain to make himself invisible to Fern, as I'm pretty sure Curtain makes Yuta entirely imperceptible to Fern's senses besides ESP.

This is true but she's always using ESP so it wouldn't actually matter, wouldn't even surprise her, invisible spells ain't uncommon.
also i think she can use mana on her eyes to see invisible stuff, or maybe that was frieren who could only do that, i legit forget so i wont argue that

If Yuta has even an ounce of the same expertise Uro had with Sky Manipulation, he can can wrap himself in a layer of Sky Manipulation.

zoltraak has hax to neg defensive stuff like forcefields, deflections, etc, 1 layer even going by page.

 

[Mommyleona]

She's 3x faster than him.

speed is equalized, her flight/travel speed is not 3x faster anyway

He's never fought anyone as fast as her

speed equalized, as i already said

he's never fought anyone who's firing as many attacks as her a second

you are absurdly overrating her danmaku, he fought sukuna who can dismantle spam more than her, which have more ap than her AND he cant even effectively block them due to their invisibility, yet he can still tank and regen through them just fine, in a battle of attrition Yuta easily wins too, average vs superhuman

which ALSO have as big of AOE as her,

Her aoe is not bigger than Ryu's and doesn't give her a significant advantage whatsoever.

Fern doesn't have an "attack" pattern, she can freely control every single projectile she fires.

Her attack pattern is spamming beams, Yuta quickly adapts to that and uses one of his many counters to it as i already described.

Having way more abilities doesn't mean a thing if said abilities don't actually do anything of value.

"Anything of value"
Sky manipulation - literally makes Yuta untouchable for Fern
Cursed speech - incaps Fern
Jacob's ladder, assuming some kind of verse equalization eradicates her magic
Shrine - Invisible slashes
Yeah sure "useless, all of that is easily superior to a simple spam of beams, that is nowhere near "40 attacks a second" as you make it sound

Tanks? They're basically the same AP

Inferior ap to Ryu's beams, who Yuta could tank and regen through. Yuta upscales from his value by a significant margin

JJK regen isn't exactly the greatest it's mid af

"Mid asf" way more than enough to overcome Fern, who has to pray Yuta doesn't go for the domain in first few seconds. Also obviously have to mention Rika, who can cover for Yuta and takes the hits too and has better regen

This is actual insanity, you don't think she's going to like, ya know, make sure he doesn't get close? She has better mobility than him and avoids CQC characters like her life depends on it, because it does.

Its not insanity, Yuta can rush at her and stop her with one of how many ways i already said, as if Yuta is so dumb he's going to allow Fern to just fly away, the moment he sees her try to get away, he simply summons Rika or cursed speech "dont move"

How? She outranges Rika's manifestation range and can just avoid it.

"She outranges-" is this Sba? NO. Starting distance is 10 meters lmao, she's instantly getting manhandled by partially manifested Rika before she can get away.

How is he having time to do that when he's being hit by like 100 attacks a second?

Oh now its 100 attacks per second, oh please show me her spamming even 20 per SECOND. Inflating her danmaku capabilities is wrong. Sure she could overwhelm him, but realistically Yuta does something to avoid that vast majority of the time.

Why would Fern even be close to him at that point? Especially given you've argued he's going to attempt to get into CQC first, which is something she knows to stay as far away as possible from. The mere fact he attempts that first would make her go "oh I should stay far away so he can never get close to me".

I just deacribed how it might go. Another scenario that could be is Yuta starts with his domain, like he did against Sukuna for example, but assuming that would be a stomp. Her knowing to try and gain range doesn't mean Yuta will let her, and she doesn't expect domain expansion, she never encountered anything of that sort ever.

Hey funny thing, literally every one of her attacks does that too.

"Her own attacks do that", where? I dont see that listed anywhere on her profile. Zoltraak was designed to bypass forcefields made of magic, Yuta doesn't do that, and TiB functions differently, its a spatial dura neg, Fern is not blocking that with anything.

I like how we're now just pretending Fern stands there and doesn't move or act at all.

If she gets caught in the domain, yeah she has nowhere to go. I like how YOU specifically pretend that Yuta wont try to do ANYTHING to prevent fern from moving away and will just stand there getting danmaku'ed to death without using any of his abilities, like what is this jjk downplay

 

[Mommyleona]

Did we not discuss this? If you wanna be ignorant, at least don't out yourself immediately by doing so.

im not being ignorant, you're being aggressive, she has no accepted resistance to curse manipulation (which doesnt even matter, cursed speech is sound/gravity/explosion/death manipulation/paralysis inducement etc), it works on sorcerers and curses who like, by default already resist curse manipulation

"She spent hours unaffected by a curse that instantly affected hundreds of others, that's bad res".
Man please stop.

yeah wow, it instantly worked on regular ass people, and is simply a sleep manipulation anyway, it took a few minutes to put Stark down who had NO resistance to it at all, cursed speech works instantly and can work even on experienced sorcerers, its incomparable to what that flower monster was doing

"He starts with that once he does this thing he doesn't start with".

he doesnt need to start with it, and he does start with it against sukuna, he also starts with CS in jjk 0, and against Uro. Man can you be any more biased?

 

[Mommyleona]

**** it, give me a day I'm just gonna make a curse res CRT for both her and Frieren if we wanna be obtuse.

do it (doesnt matter anyway)

 

[Mommyleona]

She's 3x faster than him.

oh nvm, speed equal got removed (it was there when i wrote the reply ok??), forget about that part, im still voting for Yuta, but its way closer now

 

[Catbowtie]

zoltraak has hax to neg defensive stuff like forcefields, deflections, etc, 1 layer even going by page.

Sky Manipulation is just Spatial Manipulation lol

This is true but she's always using ESP so it wouldn't actually matter, wouldn't even surprise her, invisible spells ain't uncommon.
also i think she can use mana on her eyes to see invisible stuff, or maybe that was frieren who could only do that, i legit forget so i wont argue that

Something spawning directly behind her with no indication of mana and only a presence won't be surprising for Fern?

Clairvoyance and is quicker, should be fully capable of dodging Rika grabbing her.

Would Fern even know how to dodge it? All she senses is a presence behind her, she can't see Rika. Rika is like, breathing-down-her-neck close. I'd think Fern would at least want to see what's behind her.

Rika being right next to Fern also means Rika can like, **** with Fern's danmaku, lol. Grab the staff, chase after her...really doing anything to annoy and hinder Fern. If Fern tries to Zoltraak Rika, it's useless. Basically wasting time and giving Yuta breathing room. Fern has to split herself between two different tasks of: 1. Dealing with Rika and 2. Danmaku Carpet Bombing Yuta. Does Fern's control of the energy blast require concentration? Or is it something Fern can do like it's second nature?

 

[Chariot190]

speed is equalized, her flight/travel speed is not 3x faster anyway

It is if she puts mana into it?
And it isn't, for one who wants to go by profiles, you def ain't going by it all of a sudden.

speed equalized, as i already said

It isn't. But nice try.

you are absurdly overrating her danmaku,

I'm not. Firing dozens, from sigils she can spawn on top of him even, and control each attacks trajectory, all while she can fire continuously, all at speeds well beyond his ability to properly combat is gonna add up hilariously fast.

he fought sukuna who can dismantle spam more than her,

She's faster than Sukuna too, and fires more attacks than Sukuna per second.

which have more ap than her

Basically the same AP as what Yuta starts off in actually.

AND he cant even effectively block them due to their invisibility,

And? Getting hit isn't a good thing.

yet he can still tank and regen through them just fine, in a battle of attrition Yuta easily wins too,

The fact you're saying he somehow can manage against her danmaku, by saying "he got hit by danmaku" isn't a good argument.
Tank and also regen? You keep ignoring her damage boost that can clear one shot gaps.
You're also forgetting he's going to be hit like 40 times a second.

average vs superhuman

This means nothing if he never even hits her, her manapool is large enough she can spam all day.

Her aoe is not bigger than Ryu's and doesn't give her a significant advantage whatsoever.

It literally is.

now imagine hundreds of these.

Her attack pattern is spamming beams, Yuta quickly adapts to that and uses one of his many counters to it as i already described.

And then she just controls them so he can't adapt? What part of "can control every single beam she fires freely" is being missed here? He can't run, he can't dodge, he can't even really do anything in regards to stopping himself from being hit.
Also you're acting like he even has a chance to adapt.

"Anything of value"
Sky manipulation - literally makes Yuta untouchable for Fern

Zoltraak has built in defense piercing. Layered even. Accepted too.

Cursed speech - incaps Fern

Literally one big explosion invalidates that, moving away invalidates that, it's such a none argument I'm shocked we're still even talking about it.

Jacob's ladder, assuming some kind of verse equalization eradicates her magic

CE and mana aren't the same so,
That's self sabotage on you lad's end. CE is basically impossible to equalize to any other UES.

Shrine - Invisible slashes

20km clairvoyance.

Yeah sure "useless, all of that is easily superior to a simple spam of beams, that is nowhere near "40 attacks a second" as you make it sound

You grossly underestimate what at least 12-14 sigils at once firing a beam like every few frames amounts to

It's legit more tbh
she's also 3x faster so.... It's legit gonna be more like 100 a second from Yuta's pov.

Inferior ap to Ryu's beams, who Yuta could tank and regen through. Yuta upscales from his value by a significant margin

And she doesn't? The 7-C feat she scales off of was done with nonlethal intent even.
And you keep ignoring how she can damage boost to clear one shot gaps.

"Mid asf" way more than enough to overcome Fern,

I mean yeah if you ignore the fact she has damage boost, longer range, is way quicker, and just ignore how many attacks she's actually firing a second.

who has to pray Yuta doesn't go for the domain in first few seconds.

Faster, gets her moves off first, pray Fern doesn't realize he tanked the first 10 beams and damage boost them before he can react.

Also obviously have to mention Rika, who can cover for Yuta and takes the hits too and has better regen

Fern outranges Rika's ability to stray, Rika can't cover every direction possible, and Fern's clairvoyance would pick up on Rika anyway and she'd just curve her beams around her.

Its not insanity, Yuta can rush at her and stop her with one of how many ways i already said,

He isn't rushing someone he can't keep up with while dealing with like 100 attacks up his ass.
Majority of your "ways" include things like limited power null while ignoring why it's limited (ie, wont work here).

as if Yuta is so dumb he's going to allow Fern to just fly away,

Lil bro doesn't have a choice, he's being carpet bombed and launched away and other such things all while she's faster.

the moment he sees her try to get away, he simply summons Rika or cursed speech "dont move"

Assuming the explosions don't act as noise pollution or he isn't basically crippled by that point (They would).

"She outranges-" is this Sba? NO. Starting distance is 10 meters lmao, she's instantly getting manhandled by partially manifested Rika before she can get away.

3x faster. She can sense and dodge Rika even if he summons her right on her ass.

Oh now its 100 attacks per second,

Yep.

oh please show me her spamming even 20 per SECOND.

Ok just did.

Inflating her danmaku capabilities is wrong.

I counted legit like 36 a second, and she's 2.5x faster. 36 x 2.5 = 90 a second from Yuta's pov.
And that's just there, I know damn well there's a scene she summons 14 sigils instead of like 9-12.

Sure she could overwhelm him, but realistically Yuta does something to avoid that vast majority of the time.

If you ignore Zoltraak's layered piercing, damage boost, the fact his power null doesn't even work, the speed gap, and more yeah.

I just deacribed how it might go. Another scenario that could be is Yuta starts with his domain, like he did against Sukuna for example,

You think he's starting with his domain against a small girl when the only time he ever did was against the big bad of th verses that just finished running a gauntlet?

but assuming that would be a stomp. Her knowing to try and gain range doesn't mean Yuta will let her, and she doesn't expect domain expansion, she never encountered anything of that sort ever.

She actually has? Large encompassing barriers with adverse effects isn't new to her, whether it's El Dorado or whatever Serie cooked up.
She's faster, like Yuta legit doesn't get a say here, in the time he even thinks to do something, she's already done 3 other things.

"Her own attacks do that", where? I dont see that listed anywhere on her profile.

You read the magic profile?

Zoltraak was designed to bypass forcefields made of magic,

Actually it was designed to bypass anything, it's magic forcefields that were designed to stop it. You legit got it swapped around.

Yuta doesn't do that, and TiB functions differently, its a spatial dura neg, Fern is not blocking that with anything.

Spatial duraneg isn't new to her either?

If she gets caught in the domain, yeah she has nowhere to go. I like how YOU specifically pretend that Yuta wont try to do ANYTHING to prevent fern from moving away and will just stand there getting danmaku'ed to death without using any of his abilities, like what is this jjk downplay

I don't think he would want to, he just doesn't have a choice against someone 3x faster than him, that's bombarding him with attacks that can in fact hurt him even without boosting, but if she boosts, might even just kill him from the get go given they start off basically the same AP and her boosts can kill people she otherwise cant even scratch,

Sky Manipulation is just Spatial Manipulation lol

I'm aware, many forcefields in Frieren use spatial manip to work too.

Something spawning directly behind her with no indication of mana and only a presence won't be surprising for Fern?

Probably not no, she's dealt with things exactly like that before like assassins.
Given she's 3x faster, any surprise she might have would be quickly thrown away.

Would Fern even know how to dodge it? All she senses is a presence behind her, she can't see Rika. Rika is like, breathing-down-her-neck close. I'd think Fern would at least want to see what's behind her.

Fern has free flight, she can sense Rika's location, she would just move probably up or down to get out of the trajectory of whatever spawned behind her.
Mind you spawning things behind people isn't new to her, SHE can do it too.

Also

• Extrasensory Perception & Analytical Prediction and Information Analysis

She has analprecog, ya gotta check the "standard magical abilities" bro.

Rika being right next to Fern also means Rika can like, **** with Fern's danmaku, lol.

No she can't? Fern can literally spawn sigils on top of people?

Grab the staff,

He doesn't know....

chase after her...

Rika is 3x slower than her dog

really doing anything to annoy and hinder Fern.

I would like to remind you Fern's range exceeds Rika's manifestation range.
You're giving ample reason why Fern would instantly just fly away as far as she can.

If Fern tries to Zoltraak Rika, it's useless.

Man we REALLY ignoring how she's gonna have like a hundred beams out a second, she could hit Rika with 50, and it wouldn't change the fact Yuta is still being carpet bombed.

Basically wasting time and giving Yuta breathing room.

Danmaku, in which she can control every beam.

Fern has to split herself between two different tasks of: 1. Dealing with Rika and 2. Danmaku Carpet Bombing Yuta.

Literally just moving far enough away invalidates Rika, and she can do both simultaneously,

Does Fern's control of the energy blast require concentration?

No, in fact it's so casual for her it shocks most people that don't even think she should be capable of doing it. She's just been trained since childhood to be particularly good at this exact thing by Frieren.

Or is it something Fern can do like it's second nature?

That, Zoltraak and Forcefields are ingrained in her, anything else tho like other types of magic she's way worse at tho.

 

[Chariot190]

im not being ignorant, you're being aggressive, she has no accepted resistance to curse manipulation (which doesnt even matter, cursed speech is sound/gravity/explosion/death manipulation/paralysis inducement etc),

There's no way you went "actually this curse is sleep manip" and then turned around and went "actually this curse manip is-" for JJK too.
The end results doesn't change the mechanics of it.

Tho arguing it's all those is actually detrimental to your case given she HAS dealt with all those before, better off saying it's cursed slop tbh

it works on sorcerers and curses who like, by default already resist curse manipulation

As above.

yeah wow, it instantly worked on regular ass people,

Uh, yep, that'd be the baseline no?

and is simply a sleep manipulation anyway, it took a few minutes to put Stark down who had NO resistance to it at all,

Stark does have res tho?

cursed speech works instantly and can work even on experienced sorcerers, its incomparable to what that flower monster was doing

Id argue the fact it could effect a whole village, and Fern in an incomparably weaker state then she is in now resisting it till nightfall is already a damn good thing, given she's only gotten better curse feats since only helps but shrug

he doesnt need to start with it, and he does start with it against sukuna, he also starts with CS in jjk 0, and against Uro.

He does tho, if he doesn't start with it her ass is gone.

Man can you be any more biased?

I am simply going off what they can actually do.
Fern can fire hundreds of attacks at once, fly away while doing so, is faster than him on all accounts, her attacks even by accident invalidate cursed speech due to noise pollution, she has good enough senses and speed to avoid things like Rika, and a lot of what Yuta could do that'd work, actually doesn't because JL only works on CE, and she has wild damage boost that, given her speed gap, if she notices he's not going down after the first dozen, could just amp them to where he would just die, and she can do that before he ever even reacts.

Your argument hinges on Fern either not creating distance, Yuta leading with a specific thing and Fern basically not making advantage of her speed gap or extra built in abilities to her beams. When half your arguments boil down to "she cant fire that many", when she legit can, like go frame by frame and count, she's firing between 30-40 a second, we have a problem.

 

[Zabazab]

Also also also, Fern has mental protection magic

Is it said somewhere than Fern or all mages install mental defenses or is it just a case of Frieren having mental defenses installed & she's Fern's master, + Übel even has mental defenses so it's likely standard for good mages even ignoring that Frieren is the type to give Fern top-class mental defense.

 

[Chariot190]

Is it said somewhere than Fern or all mages install mental defenses or is it just a case of Frieren having mental defenses installed & she's Fern's master, + Übel even has mental defenses so it's likely standard for good mages even ignoring that Frieren is the type to give Fern top-class mental defense.

Said somewhere that it's standard for mages to but it's in one of those weird slice of life chapters which is hard to keep track of when they happen, doesn't matter tho, when I get to it I'll add it to the featbox.
tho only at ch45 for compiling everything so only got the frieren one in the dungeon atm even tho Ubel also has a showing as you said in I think ch 130-140? It's against the assassins right?

 

[Zabazab]

it's in one of those weird slice of life chapters

Idt I've read even one of those, but yeah Übel mentions in 131 she's got mental defenses. Just wanting to know bc her sandbox is nearly entirely done.

 

[Chariot190]

Idt I've read even one of those, but yeah Übel mentions in 131 she's got mental defenses. Just wanting to know bc her sandbox is nearly entirely done.

Not bad, there's a few things I would prob add tho, I'll dm you some slop when I have time.

 

[Catbowtie]

I'm aware, many forcefields in Frieren use spatial manip to work too.

Probably not no, she's dealt with things exactly like that before like assassins.
Given she's 3x faster, any surprise she might have would be quickly thrown away.

Bear with me. Can I see the examples of assassins?

Also

• Extrasensory Perception & Analytical Prediction and Information Analysis

She has analprecog, ya gotta check the "standard magical abilities" bro.

I did, it's just that I don't think Fern can predict something spawning behind her because the means of AnaPre is ineffective. The energy systems are different. Doesn't spells require conscious mana usage anyway? I say that because Yuta isn't using mana, he's using Cursed Energy. I also don't think it works vice versa where Yuta can predict Fern's movements using CE sensing, if it means anything.

No she can't? Fern can literally spawn sigils on top of people?

You got me there.

He doesn't know....

I don't

Rika is 3x slower than her dog

Fair enough

I would like to remind you Fern's range exceeds Rika's manifestation range.
You're giving ample reason why Fern would instantly just fly away as far as she can.

I mean, Fern was going to do that anyways? She's just going to haul more *** than what she would've done before.

Man we REALLY ignoring how she's gonna have like a hundred beams out a second, she could hit Rika with 50, and it wouldn't change the fact Yuta is still being carpet bombed.

Fair enough

Danmaku, in which she can control every beam.

Fair enough

Literally just moving far enough away invalidates Rika, and she can do both simultaneously,

Fair enough

No, in fact it's so casual for her it shocks most people that don't even think she should be capable of doing it. She's just been trained since childhood to be particularly good at this exact thing by Frieren.

Gotcha

That, Zoltraak and Forcefields are ingrained in her, anything else tho like other types of magic she's way worse at tho.

Gotcha

Yea Yuta's getting cooked more times than not, no question. Best thing he can do is Curtain and PRAY he can get Cursed Speech off

 

[Chariot190]

Bear with me. Can I see the examples of assassins?

Uh, idk it's just the current arc
You could prob start reading at like ch 120.

I did, it's just that I don't think Fern can predict something spawning behind her because the means of AnaPre is ineffective.

How so? She can sense Rika, she's fast enough to dodge regardless, and analprecog just kinda helps her predict the mana flow.

The energy systems are different.

You're right, CE and mana are different, it's why I'm not saying Fern just nullifies every attack he has because he forcefields negate magic, but that wouldn't mean they instantly null CE attacks.
But we still give both CE and mana do we not?
Fern might not be attacking with CE, and Yuta might not attack with mana, but the both have some yeah?

Like in the same way verse equalization gives other characters ki so Goku can sense them, even if they're not gonna actually use it.

Doesn't spells require conscious mana usage anyway? I say that because Yuta isn't using mana, he's using Cursed Energy. I also don't think it works vice versa where Yuta can predict Fern's movements using CE sensing, if it means anything.

I mean does everyone have CE in JJK? Is it an innate thing like how ki is in DBZ? If so yeah he could. Not that it'd really help given knowing youre gonna be hit by 100 beams at once doesn't help you stop them, but, ya know.
If CE is something not everyone has tho, then yeah she wouldn't have CE for him to sense.

I mean, Fern was going to do that anyways? She's just going to haul more *** than what she would've done before.

People have been arguing she won't, this just gives confirms she would.

 

[Catbowtie]

Uh, idk it's just the current arc
You could prob start reading at like ch 120.

No. Spoon feed me examples (I will just watch the anime then read the manga from there)

How so? She can sense Rika, she's fast enough to dodge regardless, and analprecog just kinda helps her predict the mana flow.

Doesn't mana flow require initial manipulation in order for Fern to accurately AnaPre Rika?

You're right, CE and mana are different, it's why I'm not saying Fern just nullifies every attack he has because he forcefields negate magic, but that wouldn't mean they instantly null CE attacks.
But we still give both CE and mana do we not?
Fern might not be attacking with CE, and Yuta might not attack with mana, but the both have some yeah?

I'm not going to lie. Idk

I mean does everyone have CE in JJK? Is it an innate thing like how ki is in DBZ? If so yeah he could. Not that it'd really help given knowing youre gonna be hit by 100 beams at once doesn't help you stop them, but, ya know.
If CE is something not everyone has tho, then yeah she wouldn't have CE for him to sense.

Yes, everyone in JJK have CE. All humans produce CE passively.

People have been arguing she won't, this just gives confirms she would.

I'm not going to argue with a supporter about what their own character does

 

[Chariot190]

No. Spoon feed me examples (I will just watch the anime then read the manga from there)

Bro if you're gonna make me go gather scans I may as well just work on the CRT instead and do two birds with one stone
Tho I suppose I'm gonna do that anyway so eh

Doesn't mana flow require initial manipulation in order for Fern to accurately AnaPre Rika?

Not really? As long as it's there she can sense it, the recent assassin chapters a good example, she could follow and track something that simply HAD mana to an extreme degree, even tho it wasnt doing anything with it.

Yes, everyone in JJK have CE. All humans produce CE passively.

Then mayhaps he can, but if we go that route, the alternative is also true and Fern's sensing is actually stupidly detailed. See bro's sandbox above for some feats.

 

[Jaynic1]

I forgot fern can spawn zoltraaks right on top of you too lol. This is a stomp, yuta has no win cons.

 

[Mommyleona]

And it isn't, for one who wants to go by profiles, you def ain't going by it all of a sudden.

going by profiles only its talking about the speed of her spells

It isn't. But nice try.

It was when i started writing, im sorry

I'm not. Firing dozens, from sigils she can spawn on top of him even, and control each attacks trajectory, all while she can fire continuously

she's not controlling each individual one, she usually doesnt control them at all, she usually doesnt spam for too long, and instead goes for slow and methodic blasts, you are acting like she's some machine gun that goes from 0 to 100 in a split second, even though she usually doesnt start like that AT ALL, never

She's faster than Sukuna too

ye

fires more attacks than Sukuna per second.

not really, sukuna can send dozens upon dozens of slashes, ill elaborate more further down

Basically the same AP as what Yuta starts off in actually.

as i said, Yuta upscales from his value, he's "atleast" even during Culling Games, than grew even stronger in shinjuku

And? Getting hit isn't a good thing.

that wasnt the point... he could take and outregen without being able to block properly against Sukuna, which he will do even better against Fern

The fact you're saying he somehow can manage against her danmaku, by saying "he got hit by danmaku" isn't a good argument.

How?? like what? yes he can manage being hit by danmaku, because he survived through danmaku of someone with higher ap and whose danmaku is invisible. thats the point

This means nothing if he never even hits her, her manapool is large enough she can spam all day.

when did she ever manage to SPAM ALL DAY? omg i cant the amount of things you overestimate about fern

It literally is.

literally isnt, in your pic its a bit higher than a tree

now imagine hundreds of these.

its already a result of multiple of them and again, nowhere near hundreds

And then she just controls them so he can't adapt?

show her ever controlling them mid spam lol

What part of "can control every single beam she fires freely" is being missed here?

yet never does that? right

Also you're acting like he even has a chance to adapt.

so its a stomp match up for you then? if Yuta cant adapt therefore cant use anything, therefore its a stomp, atleast from how you describe it. In reality yes he can adapt, hes way more experienced and her attacks are laughably simple to understand and counter with Yuta's kit

Zoltraak has built in defense piercing. Layered even. Accepted too.

TiB is spatial manipulation, Yuta can literally drag space around himself to make beams go the other way, how is that comparable to zoltraak piercing some regular barriers

Literally one big explosion invalidates that, moving away invalidates that, it's such a none argument I'm shocked we're still even talking about it.

how is that "none argument", its legit something Fern has no counter to and wont even expect that happening, how is "one big explosion" invalidating Yuta simply saying dont move or get crushed

CE and mana aren't the same so,
That's self sabotage on you lad's end. CE is basically impossible to equalize to any other UES.

is it? can you explain why?

20km clairvoyance.

she doesnt have clairvoyance she has:

• Extrasensory Perception & Analytical Prediction and Information Analysis

which wont even work on Yuta, since you just sabotaged yourself, ce cant be equalized to mana, meaning she literally cant sense ANYTHING from Yuta, he has no mana to analyze or predict, moreover advanced sorcerers make it hard to read their moves considering the way mana sensory works, but that doesnt matter since she wont sense him at all

You grossly underestimate what at least 12-14 sigils at once firing a beam like every few frames amounts to

using anime now eh? in manga it was like 8 beams

she's also 3x faster so....

that doesnt change the rate at which she can fire

And you keep ignoring how she can damage boost to clear one shot gaps.

which she uses like when? she cant spam that either as far as i understand

I mean yeah if you ignore the fact she has damage boost, longer range, is way quicker, and just ignore how many attacks she's actually firing a second.

if you ignore domain, rika both partial and fully manifested, cursed speech, sky manipulation and shrine, then sure, Yuta dies to danmaku because he decides to stay in base and do nothing outside of swinging his sword

Faster, gets her moves off first, pray Fern doesn't realize he tanked the first 10 beams and damage boost them before he can react.

Valid, im not saying Fern cant win, but Yuta would instantly access the speed gap and go full power/use all his possible defences to try and overcome it

Fern outranges Rika's ability to stray, Rika can't cover every direction possible, and Fern's clairvoyance would pick up on Rika anyway and she'd just curve her beams around her

it wont, already explained why

He isn't rushing someone he can't keep up with while dealing with like 100 attacks up his ass.

(now that speed isnt equal yes, but i conceded that above)

Lil bro doesn't have a choice, he's being carpet bombed and launched away and other such things all while she's faster.

she usually doesnt start with that absurd spam as you suggest, she starts off slow

Assuming the explosions don't act as noise pollution

since when does "noise pollution" counter cursed speech, what are we doing here?

he isn't basically crippled by that point

hes not, she doesnt always start with spam, and it is NOT that big, its maybe a dozen per second

She can sense and dodge Rika even if he summons her right on her ass.

no she cant sense her, she cant dodge her either when Rika gets summoned right around her

Yep.

Nope, not even remotely close even if you count the anime, which i have to ask, is accepted or not as canon?

counted legit like 36 a second, and she's 2.5x faster. 36 x 2.5 = 90 a second from Yuta's pov.

its like 5-8 at most, and its per second, its the same from Yuta's pov lol

If you ignore Zoltraak's layered piercing

which doesnt help, hes not a demon lol what, she doesnt have any layers here

damage boost

which is never her starting move

You think he's starting with his domain against a small girl when the only time he ever did was against the big bad of th verses that just finished running a gauntlet?

and you think Fern stats unleashing dozens of magic beams on a boy with no mana, even though she usually doesnt like to fight/attack first?

She actually has? Large encompassing barriers with adverse effects isn't new to her, whether it's El Dorado or whatever Serie cooked up.

not the same as domains, a whole pocket dimension with sure hit attacks summoned out of nowhere

You read the magic profile?

I did, they dont

Actually it was designed to bypass anything

context matters here, it was designed to bypass all defences from that time

Spatial duraneg isn't new to her either?

lol what? how and when? tib gets through her barriers

I don't think he would want to, he just doesn't have a choice against someone 3x faster than him, that's bombarding him with attacks that can in fact hurt him even without boosting, but if she boosts, might even just kill him from the get go given they start off basically the same AP and her boosts can kill people she otherwise cant even scratch,

he does, fern doesnt spam immediately and yuta has plenty of ways to stop her with no problem, sky manip is like perfect counter for fern, yuta can fly, become invisible, deflect her attacks and so on with it

 

[Mommyleona]

There's no way you went "actually this curse is sleep manip" and then turned around and went "actually this curse manip is-" for JJK too.
The end results doesn't change the mechanics of it.

the mechanics are different, the flower monster curse isnt comparable to cursed speech, it literally insta works on people who resist it by default

Tho arguing it's all those is actually detrimental to your case given she HAS dealt with all those before, better off saying it's cursed slop tbh

like when, and when did she resist that actually

Uh, yep, that'd be the baseline no?

and cursed speech works on people who resist curse manipulation... maybe atleast concede that point already? Fern very clearly wont resist cursed speech

Id argue the fact it could effect a whole village, and Fern in an incomparably weaker state then she is in now resisting it till nightfall is already a damn good thing

i dont see how it is. CS can affect hundreds of beings too, unless you want to say Fern has better resistance to curse manipulation than Sukuna or legit beings made of cursed energy, she's not resisting it at all

He does tho, if he doesn't start with it her ass is gone.

she doesnt always run away hundreds meters away, why would she even, as she supposedly would be overwhelming Yuta just fine at the beginning

Fern can fire hundreds of attacks at once

dozen at best

fly away while doing so, is faster than him on all accounts

true

her attacks even by accident invalidate cursed speech due to noise pollution

headcanon, very ridiculous one too

she has good enough senses

wont work on something that has no mana and is invisible to her

Your argument hinges on Fern either not creating distance, Yuta leading with a specific thing and Fern basically not making advantage of her speed gap or extra built in abilities to her beams. When half your arguments boil down to "she cant fire that many", when she legit can, like go frame by frame and count, she's firing between 30-40 a second, we have a problem.

when your entire argument hinges on Fern somehow firing hundreds of beams(she cant, she spawns only a few at a time) while flying away(she usually doesnt), right off the bat, as well as using mana sensory on someone with no mana we have a problem


(i wont be responding today anymore)

 

[Chariot190]

going by profiles only its talking about the speed of her spells

It isn't, at all, it's mana as a whole. As long as she has mana, she's just that fast.

It was when i started writing, im sorry

Well it isn't. The fact you only chimed in when it got equalized is kinda of obnoxious too ngl.

she's not controlling each individual one,

Yes she is, every scene posted in this thread has her doing so to some degree. Zoltraak normally just goes in a straight line.

she usually doesnt control them at all,

She can, and yes she does? In every clip I've shown she's controlling them? Zoltraak without control just goes in a straight line, if they curve, that's her.

she usually doesnt spam for too long,

Man, if you wanna argue could you not spread falsehoods?

She spams till her foes can no longer fight. Every time.
Whether that's seconds or minutes, it doesn't matter.

and instead goes for slow and methodic blasts,

Why even lie?

you are acting like she's some machine gun that goes from 0 to 100 in a split second, even though she usually doesnt start like that AT ALL, never

It's how she's started every single mage fight she's ever been in.
Like I legit don't know why you're just spouting nonsense.

ye

Yeah exactly so pretending Sukuna doing it and her doing it are even comparable is disingenuous. Could Yuta survive if Sukuna was doing what he was but 3x? That's rhetorical, he couldn't.

not really, sukuna can send dozens upon dozens of slashes, ill elaborate more further down

Dozens and dozens isn't good enough, she's sending dozens like every few fraction of a second.

as i said, Yuta upscales from his value, he's "atleast" even during Culling Games, than grew even stronger in shinjuku

And she upscales her's, by a shit ton. The 7-C feat in question is incapable of breaking past standard shields and is just eaten by them.
Fern can break the shield that invalidated that attack.
Cue a couple years of growth past that.
And then even with damage boost she can one shot gore what she can't even scratch.

that wasnt the point... he could take and outregen without being able to block properly against Sukuna, which he will do even better against Fern

He'd do literally worse, she's basically Sukuna x3.
And if she opts to damage boost? He just dies, he can't regen 20 gaping holes through his body and head. And she'd be able to notice he's not going down right away before he can react properly or adapt because she's like 3x faster.

How?? like what? yes he can manage being hit by danmaku, because he survived through danmaku of someone with higher ap and whose danmaku is invisible. thats the point

Your point is bad.
Her danmaku is better, she can control every beam in her danmaku freely so he can't even dodge it anyway because they're 3x faster than him and just opivot if he tries to dodge.
Higher AP, again they start off equal, yeah Yuta upscales his value, and so does she, they're basically the same.
Yes Yuta can buff himself a hefty degree, but so can she, and given she's faster and is much quicker on the draw, if anyone is whipping out the amp first, it's her, and when her amp lets her gore people who her attacks, which are about equal to Yuta to start off, won't even touch, that's a death sentence.

when did she ever manage to SPAM ALL DAY? omg i cant the amount of things you overestimate about fern

Training?

literally isnt, in your pic its a bit higher than a tree

Bro that's one blast, by a much weaker Fern.


And here's an adolescent Fern basically replicating that.

Anyway, you're legit just wrong, "a bit higher",

Yuh huh, do I need to pixel scale it for you or something?

its already a result of multiple of them and again, nowhere near hundreds

They explode on impact
And yep, case and point, she can instantly cause massive encompassing explosions
Now what do you think is gonna happen against Yuta who doesn't have a means to negate or fizzle out her magic so they DONT do that?

Yes hundreds, you're being ignorant here. She can fire dozens per moment, and she's far faster than Yuta, she isn't gonna just fire like 3 and stop, that goes against her whole MO.

show her ever controlling them mid spam lol

Literally IN the scenes you showed? Why do you say things out of complete ignorance, it just makes you look bad.
You know Zoltraak doesn't autoaim by itself right? You know it just goes in a straight line right?
So ya know, when you send scenes of a bunch of her beams curving or following her targets, that's her controlling them, I shouldn't even have to explain this to you.

yet never does that? right

Literally EVERY SCENE you yourself posted has her doing it. Actually stop talking if you don't know a single thing about what you're trying to argue.

so its a stomp match up for you then?

It is what it is, it isn't my job to argue the opposition.

if Yuta cant adapt therefore cant use anything, therefore its a stomp, atleast from how you describe it. In reality yes he can adapt,

Adapt before she does? No. She's faster, it's going to be her adapting first every time.

hes way more experienced and her attacks are laughably simple to understand and counter with Yuta's kit

Only if you ignore the fact she's getting off hundreds of attacks before he can do a single thing, is multiple times faster than him so she can adapt and act according to whatever he so much attempts to do, half his kit legit doesn't even work, and she can legit just kill him if she's feeling frisky before he can get going.

They have about the same experience actually, they've both been training and fighting random shit for their whole lives.

Her attacks being simple doesn't matter if they work just fine, which they do.

TiB is spatial manipulation, Yuta can literally drag space around himself to make beams go the other way, how is that comparable to zoltraak piercing some regular barriers

Because barriers in Frieren can range from magic negation to even weird anti matter shit?
But you're joking right?


THAT'S your huge gotcha argument?

The deflection and forcefields that aren't omnidirectional?

Here's an idea


Basic training, something established as early as ch3.

What's stopping Fern from just controlling her attacks to attack the blindspots? Like in the above JJK example, the sides aren't able to be attacked, but she's completely vulnerable from above and below.
Why can't Fern, with her numerous beams, she can freely control just have them come at Yuta from every direction so he CAN'T block them all regardless?
That's rhetorical, she can, and is something she actively does in combat already forcing enemy mages to expand extra mana creating shields from multiple spots.

how is that "none argument", its legit something Fern has no counter to and wont even expect that happening,

She legit doesn't have to expect it, just the passive collateral invalidates it.

how is "one big explosion" invalidating Yuta simply saying dont move or get crushed

Noise pollution.
"Tens to Hundreds of Meters with Cursed Speech (The human voice can be heard from 180 meters away in ideal conditions and Yuta can also use Cursed Speech with a megaphone)" and ", often the command "Don't Move" after concealing his mouth and sending Rika as a diversion, to force his opponents to either take the time to cover their ears at the last second"

Makes it blatantly clear the target has to actually hear the command. You are not telling me Yuta is yelling louder than a giant explosion if simply covering one's ears is a viable counter or that he needs to manifest a megaphone to give it a bit extra range.

is it? can you explain why?

Because it's its own thing? It isn't like chi from two diff verses being comparable, or magic in two diff verses being comparable, it's some weird ***** abstract energy.

she doesnt have clairvoyance she has:

• Extrasensory Perception & Analytical Prediction and Information Analysis

"the supposed faculty of perceiving things or events in the future or beyond normal sensory contact."

The actual definition of clairvoyance my dude.

which wont even work on Yuta, since you just sabotaged yourself, ce cant be equalized to mana, meaning she literally cant sense ANYTHING from Yuta, he has no mana to analyze or predict, moreover advanced sorcerers make it hard to read their moves considering the way mana sensory works,

Man you REALLY gotta starting reading before you start arguing it's getting kind of annoying.
They might not use CE or mana offensively, and Mana might not be CE. But they'd still get some.

Also why would Yuta be able to manipulate what lil mana he has? By that logic Fern could manipulate her CE? Neither could, they wouldnt even know they have it.

but that doesnt matter since she wont sense him at all

Fern's sensing feats legit humiliate any stealth feat in JJK, it isn't even funny.
See bro's sandbox above for a decent feat.

using anime now eh? in manga it was like 8 beams

Using a scene in motion for a scene that's stated to have had her constantly attacking is, in fact, better than using a static image and pretending she only fired 8 when context says she was firing a bunch again and again till it overwhelmed her foe, yes. Do not be obtuse.

Hell this would be like posting a panel of Star Platinum and going "he only punched 6 times" even though it's supposed to be more like 600 hundred, manga is just a static medium.

that doesnt change the rate at which she can fire

It does actually, given if from her pov it's like 40 a second, to someone 3x slower than her, it's gonna be 3x that proportionally.

This isn't complex. If a MFTL character throws what looks to be a few punches mid combat, that's cool, but against say, a subsonic dude, he's getting his face caved in a trillion times over in a second.

which she uses like when? she cant spam that either as far as i understand

Against characters her normal attacks can't hurt? She can use it multiple times in a row, and even after being stabbed a bunch she could still get one off that straight up killed someone she couldnt hurt otherwise,
It costs more mana than her normal attacks that she can rapid fire, but she also doesn't need to fire a 1000 of them, legit just one or two will kill Yuta if she gets it off before he jumps to 7kt.

if you ignore domain,

Yep, he's only ever lead with it once, against Sukuna of all people. He would need to use it before Fern damage boosts or gets out of range, which he'd be hard pressed to even do or react to in time.

rika both partial and fully manifested,

Yes she's usually, Fern is faster, she can just avoid Rika or launch her away with danmaku. Might not be able to hurt Rika but being hurt and not being a problem aren't mutual.

cursed speech,

Just the big explosions invalidate that as an option from the get go, it isn't even on the table.

sky manipulation and shrine,

Actually useless, he has to physically grab space, and only in the area he grabs and pulls over, is he protected, meanwhile Fern can just pivot her beams around it.
I'd understand if it covered his body completely and permanently, but it doesn't, it's actually super limited.

Like really, you're arguing for sky manip but it's only useful if offensively if Yuta can physically touch Fern which is never gonna happen, or as a defensive option which, yeah he can use it to block some, but he can't cover himself entirely with it, which means it may as well not even be a thing given blocking one beam out of a dozen every moment, isn't helping him, it's just wasting his time.

then sure, Yuta dies to danmaku because he decides to stay in base and do nothing outside of swinging his sword

Yep. Half his options don't even work, and what does work is super limited and may as well not even be a thing, and the worst part is?

You keep listing off all these options, newsflash but he isn't going to get a chance to do all these things, in the time he does one action, Fern's already done 3. He really doesn't have the liberty to pick and choose and run through his options here.

Valid, im not saying Fern cant win, but Yuta would instantly access the speed gap and go full power/use all his possible defences to try and overcome it

You've legit argued he'd do everything at this point. He can't, he literally can't because Fern is quicker, by the time he'd run through everything he'd have already wasted to much time and lost. Which ironically, is the burden of having "versatility", if you don't pick your one winning card because you did other stuff first, you just kind of lose.
And the worst part is, this is being generous, what's stopping Fern from noticing he tanks a few beams and just boosts a few to make sure he goes down? She can do that before he amps.

it wont, already explained why

Your explanation is ignorant and insufficient.

(now that speed isnt equal yes, but i conceded that above)

And it's for that reason he loses, he's not quickdrawing Fern, he isn't catching up to her, he isn't blocking all her attacks, she can avoid and circumvent his counters, and that's all assuming she doesn't just kill him because she notices he survives first.

she usually doesnt start with that absurd spam as you suggest, she starts off slow

"Slow"
As the dude says "holy shit i almost just got blitzed and died wtf", and then like an exchange later she's rapid firing him.
And that's Fern years before this Fern too. I don't think High 8-C Supersonic Fern who's still learning is the same as current Fern, may as well use start of JJK Yuta instead, the fact she starts blitzing and overwhelming him anyway is just ironic.

since when does "noise pollution" counter cursed speech, what are we doing here?

You have to hear Cursed Speech for it to take effect. It's LEGIT on the profile man, take it up with it not me.

hes not, she doesnt always start with spam, and it is NOT that big, its maybe a dozen per second

"It's maybe a dozen per second", ignoring the fact I literally counted 36 but that's beside the point, it could be 5 a second and it'd be enough, that 5 a second becomes over 12.5 a second, 12.5 attacks she can freely manipulate, avoid his defences, and strike wherever, that also explode, pierce, and if she notices he survives, amp them, ALL before he can even really adapt back and do something.

no she cant sense her,

Literally can but you do you

she cant dodge her either when Rika gets summoned right around her

Faster. And that ONLY works if fern is in range too.
For this to even be on the table. Yuta has to

1. Survive long enough
2. Pick to summon Rika over any of his other options
3. Pray Fern doesn't just dodge because she's faster than Rika by multiple times, and yes dodge, if Yuji was faster than Rika, he could just pivot his head and escape the trajectory of her grasp, if he was fast enough, there's enough space to do so.
4. Pray Fern is even close enough still for Rika to be summoned atop her.

Nope, not even remotely close even if you count the anime,

I'm not humoring this, I went frame by frame and counted the amount of shots that were fired with 23.97 frames, ie, 1 second. It was 36 or 38, kinda hard to tell.

which i have to ask, is accepted or not as canon?

Literally where the AP values atm come from bro, you tell me?

its like 5-8 at most, and its per second, its the same from Yuta's pov lol

I counted, stop spouting nonsense. If I have to circle each beam i swear to god.
That gif I posted, one second of it, had 36 shots fired in a second.

which doesnt help, hes not a demon lol what, she doesnt have any layers here

What? I'm not talking about Demon Slaying magic,

• Magic Projection (1 Layer; With ordinary offense magic, known in the demonic magic system as Killing Magic: Zoltraak. Zoltraak was developed by the Great Demon Qual as the world's first piercing magic, which bypassed the magic resistance of spells and equipment, directly eradicating the body. After many decades, humanity's magic advanced and incorporated Zoltraak, making it ordinary offense magic)

She literally has layered shit accepted.

which is never her starting move

I never claimed it was a lead, it's only something she does when her attacks don't damage her foes, which, is exactly what you've been arguing? So why wouldn't Fern go "hey my dozen beams didn't kill him, let's amp a few".

But, guess who's faster on the draw for that?

and you think Fern stats unleashing dozens of magic beams on a boy with no mana, even though she usually doesnt like to fight/attack first?

Yes because she does do so if she thinks her life is in danger.
And hey here's SBA
Each character will view their opponents as enemies, who they have to assume wish to cause them severe harm such that losing could have any range of dire consequences. - SBA Rules.

So yes, actually, I do.

not the same as domains, a whole pocket dimension with sure hit attacks summoned out of nowhere

It's close enough, she knows huge multi KM aoe spells that can completely neg you exist.

I did, they dont

Zoltraak doesn't have defensive piercing capabilities???
Opinion discarded ig.

context matters here, it was designed to bypass all defences from that time

It was designed to bypass legit anything, hell it's why its duraneg idk why we removed that but there's like ten statements yapping about it both in manga and the guide.
Modern defenses just have exact counters to it in particular to undo it.

lol what? how and when?

She's seen multiple mages with spatial manip?
Hell she even teamed up with one.

tib gets through her barriers

Yeah if he punches her, he's never punching her tho.
She actively stays away from physical combat at all costs.

he does, fern doesnt spam immediately

It's legitimately her entire gameplan, I'm not humoring your ignorance here.

and yuta has plenty of ways to stop her with no problem,

Every single option he has except immediate DE, just gets him killed. I'm not repeating the above, but whether it's Cursed Speech being useless from the get go, or Sky being way to limited and needing him to actively move and deflect said attacks which she can just pivot, etc, most of his options don't actually solve anything.

sky manip is like perfect counter for fern,

It's laughably bad given she can control her attacks freely.

yuta can fly,

Highly limited, multiple times slower than she can at that,

become invisible,

Mana detection.

deflect her attacks and so on with it

Deflecting one if even, is not helping.

Your whole argument is "let's pretend Fern doesn't do her entire schtick", just saying words that aren't even true (I straight up counted how many she fired within a second, stop saying shit that isn't true), ignoring she's almost 3x faster so it's going to be her reacting to anything he does and countering before he can get it off, and also just ignoring damage boost, they start off like equal, she stays away and out of range, and then listing off a dozen things Yuta "can do", while ignoring he doesn't have that liberty, he only really gets one option if even before Fern just kills him with a few amped Zoltraaks, if his option isn't what would get him a instant win, he just dies. Like using sky? That gets him killed for example, he doesn't have time to pick that, make use of it, and then lead into something actually useful.

 

[Keeweed]

The difference between Sukuna and Yuta threads is wild. Anyways Fern snipes fra, don’t know if I am counted as a vote for her yet.

 

[Chariot190]

the mechanics are different, the flower monster curse isnt comparable to cursed speech, it literally insta works on people who resist it by default

They're both curses. That's how both work.

like when, and when did she resist that actually

Good question, Ill see if I can grab them, theyre before Sol i think.

and cursed speech works on people who resist curse manipulation... maybe atleast concede that point already?

Yeah? I never said it didn't, that doesn't mean much tho if Fern's defenses > people with res too.
I already said I'd make a CRT for it tho so hy are you yapping?

Fern very clearly wont resist cursed speech

Why wouldn't someone who has better curse res than people with curse res not resist it?

i dont see how it is.

You don't see how affecting hundreds of people instantly, affecting someone who has resistance in minutes, and than herself lasting till nightfall without issue, is a decent resistance?

CS can affect hundreds of beings too,

I don't recall Yuta ever effecting hundreds with his CS?

unless you want to say Fern has better resistance to curse manipulation than Sukuna or legit beings made of cursed energy, she's not resisting it at all

Uh maybe? I'll decide once I go over all the curses (besides shit like El Dorado, she def dont resist that) and see how good it is.

she doesnt always run away hundreds meters away, why would she even, as she supposedly would be overwhelming Yuta just fine at the beginning

She goes out of range, her whole schtick, whether it's tens of meters, hundreds of even km. It just depends on the target.

Why? Because the very fact Yuta doesn't instantly die from a Zoltraak while unprotected by mana would alert her "oh shit, he's physically insane, must be some sort of demon or warrior, i should get away".

dozen at best

Sigh

true

Yep.

headcanon, very ridiculous one too

It's straight up on our JJK profiles

wont work on something that has no mana and is invisible to her

I already explained above.

when your entire argument hinges on Fern somehow firing hundreds of beams

Yep, being way faster pays off. Being able to fire dozens a second from over a dozen sigils also helps.

(she cant, she spawns only a few at a time)

You're confusing sigils with beams. A dozen sigils isn't a dozen beams. The sigils fire the beams on rapid fire.

while flying away(she usually doesnt)

She literally almost always does. Like 80% of her fights. the 20% she doesn't is against those she couldn't even if she wanted to like Solitare.

, right off the bat, as well as using mana sensory on someone with no mana we have a problem

Yes, especially as of late, she's been taught and now has ample experience with CQC fighters who can kill her instantly,
Not commenting on mana detecting again.

 

[Arceus0x]

Fern FRA to add the nail to the coffin.

 

[Epyriel]

Fern FRA

 

[Jaynic1]

Sukuna would be a better matchup, he would actually have win cons.

 

[Keeweed]

Yeah dismantle would arguably be ggs, versus Fern quickly out speeding / range cursed speech.

 

[Mommyleona]

sorry for late reply, not sure why i even bother, but i felt like i have to

It isn't, at all, it's mana as a whole. As long as she has mana, she's just that fast.

justification makes it sound like that

"Her casting speed is among the quickest in the world, even quicker than Frieren; blitzed Lore with her Zoltraak from far away"

The fact you only chimed in when it got equalized is kinda of obnoxious too ngl.

how is that obnoxious???? i checked the thread, saw speed equal, replied with that in mind...

Yes she is, every scene posted in this thread has her doing so to some degree. Zoltraak normally just goes in a straight line.

in most scenes posted its either straight line or slightly curved, you are implying she can control each to act like a tracking missile or smth, she doesnt usually do it

Man, if you wanna argue could you not spread falsehoods?

She spams till her foes can no longer fight. Every time.

she doesnt, atleast not on the lvl you're suggesting.

Why even lie?

i dont, why would i lie? here she literally starts with individual blasts, and doesnt spam "hundreds per second"(absurd wank) and only uses 2 clearly visible blasts

It's how she's started every single mage fight she's ever been in.

blatant lie as shown above, she basically never does that

Yeah exactly so pretending Sukuna doing it and her doing it are even comparable is disingenuous. Could Yuta survive if Sukuna was doing what he was but 3x? That's rhetorical, he couldn't.

her spam is nowhere near being 3x faster

she's sending dozens like every few fraction of a second.

no she isnt, i will be skipping that point from now on, since that simply never happened, even taking the anime its at best like 15 a second

she's basically Sukuna x3.

her being 3x faster =/= her spam being 3x faster

Her danmaku is better, she can control every beam in her danmaku

curving them a bit makes no difference

And if she opts to damage boost? He just dies, he can't regen 20 gaping holes through his body and head. And she'd be able to notice he's not going down right away before he can react properly or adapt because she's like 3x faster.

im just curious what is Yuta's wincon in your opinion, by what you say, fern is 3x faster, spams, can one shot, flies away, predicts any and all attacks, counters every single ability Yuta has, like what???? just scrap this whole fight then
but aside from that, show her spamming zoltraak with magic boost

Training?

refresh my memory

Bro that's one blast, by a much weaker Fern

no it was multiple at once

Anyway, you're legit just wrong, "a bit higher",

why are we using anime again? why dont i start bringing up jjk anime?

They explode on impact
And yep, case and point, she can instantly cause massive encompassing explosions

small explosions, via multiple beams

Yes hundreds, you're being ignorant here. She can fire dozens per moment, and she's far faster than Yuta, she isn't gonna just fire like 3 and stop

no, not hundreds, again you are making up a multiplier out of NOWHERE, her being 3x faster than Yuta, does NOT suddenly change the amount she can fire per second, WHERE IS LOGIC IN THAT??? so like if yuta had same speed, she would fire less per second? or if yuta was faster she would fire even LESS per second?????????
PER SECOND is key words here.

Why do you say things out of complete ignorance, it just makes you look bad.

disagreeing with you isnt ignorance, by control i assume something like her making them curve alot, follow her target or smth of that sort, not to mention its not mid spam, she locks onto the target then fires in their direction, thats it

It is what it is, it isn't my job to argue the opposition.

i get it, but if its a stomp, then can it even be added to profiles? basically no one seems to disagree with that outside of me

Adapt before she does? No. She's faster, it's going to be her adapting first every time.

her being faster does not mean she will adapt faster, considering she's the one overwhelming in first seconds, what would she even adapt to

half his kit legit doesn't even work, and she can legit just kill him if she's feeling frisky before he can get going.

Yuta can also one shot her with CS, and i already explained why his kit works, but you ignore it so i wont bother explaining again

Because barriers in Frieren can range from magic negation to even weird anti matter shit?
But you're joking right?

im not joking, none of that equals spatial manip lmao, are YOU joking? also the pic below isnt showing

Basic training, something established as early as ch3.

good luck when yuta can wrap it around himself and fern doesnt do that, when someone tries blocking her attacks she doesnt start curving them around barriers, she just continues shooting

just the passive collateral invalidates it.

i wont even bother with that nonsense

ou are not telling me Yuta is yelling louder than a giant explosion if simply covering one's ears is a viable counter

its not, never was, atleast from we what can see, Uro had her ears covered and was still affected.



and preventing sound from reaching you is REALLY different from just some noise being around, his words will still reach Fern, not her every single beam causes some massive sound everywhere, out of everything this is the most absurd "counter"

The actual definition of clairvoyance my dude.

ok, its just that you made it sound like precog

Man you REALLY gotta starting reading before you start arguing it's getting kind of annoying.
They might not use CE or mana offensively, and Mana might not be CE. But they'd still get some.

why? where is that stated? did you just decide it on the spot or? if its some vsbw specific rule, then tell me, im fairly new here, like geez calm down

Also why would Yuta be able to manipulate what lil mana he has? By that logic Fern could manipulate her CE? Neither could, they wouldnt even know they have it.

i didnt say that he could

Fern's sensing feats legit humiliate any stealth feat in JJK, it isn't even funny.

i said it on a premise that Yuta would have no mana, if he gets some as you say, you are still overhyping it, it has very clear limits

Using a scene in motion for a scene that's stated to have had her constantly attacking is, in fact, better than using a static image and pretending she only fired 8 when context says she was firing a bunch again and again till it overwhelmed her foe, yes. Do not be obtuse.

im not being obtuse, im just allowing yknow, even a possibility that fern doesnt spam HUNDREDS OF BEAMS PER SECOND, and that her opponent was in fact overwhelmed by just 8, same as lugher who was overwhelmed with like 2-3 just being shot fast

Hell this would be like posting a panel of Star Platinum and going "he only punched 6 times" even though it's supposed to be more like 600 hundred, manga is just a static medium.

SP has showings in the manga of punching alot of times, (not 600 but i wont derail), fern however spamming even 8 per second is absolutely plausible to overwhelm mages in frieren who get really quickly tired when using defense spells

It does actually, given if from her pov it's like 40 a second, to someone 3x slower than her, it's gonna be 3x that proportionally.

no, not how that works, if i fire 10 bullets per second, it will still be 10 bullets for both a baby and a professional boxer (just an example)

This isn't complex. If a MFTL character throws what looks to be a few punches mid combat, that's cool, but against say, a subsonic dude, he's getting his face caved in a trillion times over in a second.

completely different situation, if said mftl character throws exactly 10 punches PER second, it will STILL be 10 punches for the subsonic dude, he just wont be able to react to them

Against characters her normal attacks can't hurt?

considering her attacks can hurt yuta, she wont be using it any time soon

Yes she's usually, Fern is faster, she can just avoid Rika or launch her away with danmaku.

she cant, rika just spawns behind her already holding Fern, that should be the most fair wincon for yuta followed by CS and SM

Just the big explosions invalidate that as an option from the get go, it isn't even on the table.

already answered

Actually useless, he has to physically grab space, and only in the area he grabs and pulls over, is he protected, meanwhile Fern can just pivot her beams around it.
I'd understand if it covered his body completely and permanently, but it doesn't, it's actually super limited.

its still a valid defense, and yes he can cover majority of his body with it + can send beams back at Fern

You keep listing off all these options, newsflash but he isn't going to get a chance to do all these things, in the time he does one action, Fern's already done 3. He really doesn't have the liberty to pick and choose and run through his options here.

he does, he can take her attacks and make a decision, considering she doesnt insta spam and he can regen for a few seconds which is more than enough, also if we say she has CE, then he would be able to see the sparks before the attacks, and we know those can help dodge attacks LEAGUES above your own speed (ie sukuna dodging em waves, or kusakabe blocking dismantles also seeing their sparks)

You've legit argued he'd do everything at this point

thats how arguing about different scenarios works... you cant expect the fight go the same way 100% of the time, so YEAH im going over different things Yuta can do to win, is that now wrong? feels like you want me to just shut up

He can't, he literally can't because Fern is quicker

he can, her being quicker doesnt mean he cant, 3x also isnt THAAT big

And the worst part is, this is being generous, what's stopping Fern from noticing he tanks a few beams and just boosts a few to make sure he goes down? She can do that before he amps.

because she usually doesnt? her attacks will work, she most likely will just press more

Your explanation is ignorant and insufficient.

Yours is flawed and exaggerated.

As the dude says "holy shit i almost just got blitzed and died wtf"

because her 1 beam/draw was fast and unexpected, NOT because of her spam, why are you mixing it up

nd then like an exchange later she's rapid firing him.

"rapid firing", and its yet again 2 beams in every single panel

And that's Fern years before this Fern too.

not like her style changed alot

I don't think High 8-C Supersonic Fern who's still learning is the same as current Fern, may as well use start of JJK Yuta instead, the fact she starts blitzing and overwhelming him anyway is just ironic.

dont see different keys for fern, but either way her being weaker isnt the same as her starting battles differently, i would ask for other examples of her insta spamming then, BUT im pretty sure it doesnt matter, no one here is changing their vote anyway

ou have to hear Cursed Speech for it to take effect. It's LEGIT on the profile man, take it up with it not me.

and "noise pollution" never stopped it, if we use the anime like you did, there isnt some eardrum busting explosions going all the time, there rarely any loud sound tbh

"It's maybe a dozen per second", ignoring the fact I literally counted 36 but that's beside the point, it could be 5 a second and it'd be enough, that 5 a second becomes over 12.5 a second, 12.5 attacks she can freely manipulate, avoid his defences, and strike wherever, that also explode, pierce, and if she notices he survives, amp them, ALL before he can even really adapt back and do something.

5 remains 5, and you really make it sound like she's dozens of times faster

Faster. And that ONLY works if fern is in range too.

they start in range so

Literally where the AP values atm come from bro, you tell me?

manga?

What? I'm not talking about Demon Slaying magic,

apologies

which, is exactly what you've been arguing?

i wasnt arguing that they wont do damage

Each character will view their opponents as enemies, who they have to assume wish to cause them severe harm such that losing could have any range of dire consequences. - SBA Rules.

So yes, actually, I do.

why would you use an argument of "little girl" (not to mention Fern is older) on yuta then? he would also assume that she will cause severe harm to him per sba... you are contradicting yourself

Zoltraak doesn't have defensive piercing capabilities???

that wasnt what we were talking abou-.. ugh, cmon, you said she can pierce spatial defense like SM, she cant

It was designed to bypass legit anything

NLF not even listening

hell it's why its duraneg idk why we removed that but there's like ten statements yapping about it both in manga and the guide

dont take that out on me, actually yeah, you keep blaming me for simply following profiles, what did i do???

Yeah if he punches her, he's never punching her tho

doesnt have to outright punch her

It's legitimately her entire gameplan, I'm not humoring your ignorance here.

Every single option he has except immediate DE, just gets him killed. I'm not repeating the above, but whether it's Cursed Speech being useless from the get go, or Sky being way to limited and needing him to actively move and deflect said attacks which she can just pivot, etc, most of his options don't actually solve anything.

at this point i just agree to disagree, its not going anywhere.

off topic, is grace like final timer before the win? i dont think whatever i say matters at this point

Your whole argument is "let's pretend Fern doesn't do her entire schtick",

im saying that her entire schtick isnt really her insta thing to do, and that her schtick isnt as strong and as overwhelming as you make it sound, THATS IT. we can disagree its fine

I straight up counted how many she fired within a second, stop saying shit that isn't true

i disagree with using anime as it strays off from how it looks in the original source

They're both curses. That's how both work.

still different lvls, one is clearly way weaker than the other

Good question, Ill see if I can grab them, theyre before Sol i think.

nah dont bother, this is basically finished

Yeah? I never said it didn't, that doesn't mean much tho if Fern's defenses > people with res too.
I already said I'd make a CRT for it tho so hy are you yapping?

because i can, because why not? if fern has small amount of ce shes getting controlled by yuta, since cs works based on the amount of CE you have

Why wouldn't someone who has better curse res than people with curse res not resist it?

Fern does not have better curse res, at all

You don't see how affecting hundreds of people instantly, affecting someone who has resistance in minutes, and than herself lasting till nightfall without issue, is a decent resistance?

who said people were affected instantly? headcanon. Or that starrk has resistance to it? he doesnt, he was sleeping in a minute, tops, no proof its not the same for normal people
also do i have to bring up that "curses" in frieren is just what people call magic they cant yet dissect?

than herself lasting till nightfall without issue

how do we know how much it was till nightfall

I don't recall Yuta ever effecting hundreds with his CS?

here and here inumaki doing something similar

Sigh

lets just wrap this up already, everyone agrees fern wins anyway, or im gonna crumble to dust