Deactivating Anti-Hypertime annihilation mechanism limiter... | Sonic Cosmology Downgrade Part ?: Hypertimelines

[DaReaperMan]

Gerald's comment has nothing to do with his echo theory. He was referring to his theory that time can "heal itself". It's really blatant if you simply go back to your link only for five seconds, too. I might make a larger post later, but this part really got to me because it's just objectively and blatantly wrong.

Make yer damn summary, stop arguing.

 

[Theuser789]

You and Shake should prolly just make an overall summary.

When I have time, probably. Just to ask, is the thread still on grace period for rejection or not?

 

[KLOL506]

When I have time, probably. Just to ask, is the thread still on grace period for rejection or not?

No. There are two disagrees to two neutrals. And once again, there is no grace period for a rejected thread, but we're not at that point right now.

Make your summary and I'll tag the staff that I and Mav tagged.

 

[Theuser789]

No. There are two disagrees to two neutrals. And once again, there is no grace period for a rejected thread, but we're not at that point right now.

Make your summary and I'll tag the staff that I and Mav tagged.

Alright. Probably will end up doing that tomorrow.

 

[JJSliderman]

I do wanna point out though that despite being from Sonic 2006, a game who’s present events were before Gens, Crisis City itself is actually 200 years after Generations’ present events, being the furthest event we see in this series timeline. So it’s not really a past alteration at all, but rather a future one.

That’s all I wanted to say.

 

[Starsprite53]

Gerald's comment has nothing to do with his echo theory. He was referring to his theory that time can "heal itself". It's really blatant if you simply go back to your link only for five seconds, too. I might make a larger post later, but this part really got to me because it's just objectively and blatantly wrong.

I mean if his theory was right, what makes the other wrong? Espacially since it's based on actual science from sonic verse.

 

[Thermor]

I may lean to disagree with the op.

 

[Theuser789]

I mean if his theory was right, what makes the other wrong? Espacially since it's based on actual science from sonic verse.

This is, ironically, the fabled false cause fallacy OP loves to use. Not replying further than that until my summary.

 

[Telomera]

I do wanna point out though that despite being from Sonic 2006, a game who’s present events were before Gens, Crisis City itself is actually 200 years after Generations’ present events, being the furthest event we see in this series timeline. So it’s not really a past alteration at all, but rather a future one.

That’s all I wanted to say.

Alright if you're going to keep posting these quick messages I get to as well:

Crisis City's erasure may have been in the "normal" future within the normal timeline, but if there was a hypertimeline, then its erasure would've been in the past of that hypertimeline. Time on a hypertimeline flows in the order that changes to its timelines are made. This means that if Eggman wanted to access pre-erasure Crisis City on a hypertimeline, he would have to go back to the "hypertime" before it was erased. But of course, I already explained in my summary that this can't happen since past versions of timelines cease to exist. That's the way in which the hypertimeline interpretation contradicts the lore.

That's it for now. Please stop making these messages until you make a summary

 

[Theuser789]

Alright, my summary will be mostly focused on debunking and countering the summary of OP, as it seems these are the backbones of his current points.
Firstly, I will skip the first paragraph since it's basically just setting up the rest of the post anyway, and focus on the claim that "Time Travel" wasn't used by the Time Eater.

It's stated by Tails that Time Eater traveling through time causes the stages to appear in White Space.

Transcript:

Classic Tails: When that thing goes through time it tears space apart, leaving the areas empty and dead and sticking them in this weird white limbo.

Modern Tails: But the more your monster tears through time, the more damage you do to the world!

Sonic states in an officially SoJ sponsored interview that every stage in Generations was caused by the attacks of the Time Eater:

Transcript:

Question: Are there any stages or places that stuck in your mind?

Sonic: I really liked it when the color went back to the Areas and Zones that the Time Eater had attacked. That boils it down to basically every place I've been to, but that moment reminded me of what a great place the world is.

This means that, yes, the Time Eater did attack every zone in Generations. (And before someone says it, Sonic remembers 06, so he would know if Crisis City would've been there normally or not). We know from Tails that the Time Eater by travelling through time, so for Crisis City to have been attacked, he would have had to time-travel to it.

But if that wasn't enough, Sonic Generations is referred to as a time-travelling story. Shadow is also stated to be travelling across timelines and dimensions. Time Eater's movement through time is what erases time and space. This shows that time-travel was used to travel towards different timelines, including the erased 06 timeline.

Now, for the second point, which is the "echo" point. This one is far easier to explain.
Gerald does say that echoes of past foes can show up because of everything that happened:

So you encountered a foe you don’t remember?

Perhaps the damage done to the passage of time has triggered echoes of past historical alterations.

…Well, I’ve only dabbled in time manipulation theory.
This is just an inference based on what I’ve learned at my desk.

Now, let's be fair and ignore that Gerald just thinks this is a theory. After all, I used this Tails statement as proof that the Time Eater targeted Crisis City, after all:

Transcript:

Classic Tails: That thing keeps jumping back and forth through time, consuming the dimensional energy. And all that's left behind is this lifeless, white void.

However, the keyword here is that Gerald says that the damage caused to the timestream is what triggers the past alterations. Meaning that if time has not been damaged, no echoes are appearing.

This is something OP has conceded to, however:

it fails to account for the fact that the Time Eater had already been destroying spacetime even before it opened the portal to Crisis City in modern Sonic's timeline. That means that the "damage done to the time stream" that had been "stirring up" the echoes of Crisis City and Mephiles had already taken place by the time the portal was opened up.

With them already using a counter-argument of Time Eater having already caused damage to the timestream, letting the apparitions of echoes appear. However, even ignoring that currently on the wikia, this scene is not accepted as Time Eater destroying part of space, and instead, him already destroying all of time:

• Nonexistence Erasure (Enhanced Nature Type 1, Aspect 5 [Other: History]) , Plot Manipulation, Text Manipulation, Dream Manipulation, Enhanced Conceptual Destruction (Type 1 [6-D]), Mind Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Emphatic Manipulation & Information Manipulation (Type 2 [6-D], 1 Layer; Unaffected by the Time Eater erasing history and all space-time/reality, which would include places such as Maginaryworld, leaving everything as a colorless timeless void. It was noted that Sonic and Classic Sonic had to restore the flow of time to restore their friends, including Amy, Knuckles, and Tails, who were unaffected by Void's presence and attacks)

(Classic Sonic's current page).

That scene is indeed when Time Eater destroyed all of space and time. Thanks to Shadow Generations, we can see Time Eater simultaneously appear for Sonic and Shadow. (Despite Sonic being on Earth, and Shadow being in space in the ARK). This is also shown by the fact that Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic appear in White Space around the same time. So, in conclusion, Time Eater didn't mess with the timestream before summoning Crisis City; both the Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic scenes happen at the same "time" when Time Eater destroys all of time and space.

Now, the third point is what I call an "argument of incredulity". Basically, treating it as if it's too impossible for Eggman to grab the Crisis City from a hypertimeline for various reasons:

but it makes a lot more sense than Eggman randomly stopping his rampage across time and reaching back in hypertime to restore a timeline he didn't even remember

but this a huge stretch. All that this appearance means is that the presence of Crisis City was one of the consequences of Eggman's plan, specifically due to being "stirred up" as a side effect of his tampering with the time stream. There's nothing more to it than that, and anything more is headcanon and a non sequitur.

Now, ignoring the fact that these aren't real arguments. Ignoring the fact that I can pull an uno-reverse and say that Eggman luckily pulling the equivalent of an SSR gachapull to summon Crisis City is even more unlikely, since there are infinite moments in time and infinite timelines, and we know that Eggman purposely summoned Crisis City to lure Sonic in.

Transcript:

Eggman: And then I trapped your friends to lure you in.

And as we know, Sonic himself said all the places he went are nostalgic, including Crisis City. I could also discuss how ignoring the flashback is a genuine media illiterate move, as it's a clear storytelling device to pan over and show "the past defeats" that Eggman mentions in his dialogue, but there's no need.

The main argument for the argument of incredulity is that "Eggman doesn't remember it."

Which... isn't really confirmed nor true at all. We know for a fact that Sonic does remember it, since, as said previously, Sonic considers all of Time Eater's zones familiar and nostalgic, and has shown to remember 06 before, as well, but even Blaze, the one Eggman trapped in Crisis City, remembers 06 in Generations:

Blaze (Mission Cleared (2)):
I never thought I’d end up in Crisis City again.
Strange things just keep happening in other worlds.

Meaning, there's no actual proof that Eggman doesn't remember 06, meaning that it being used in the flashback as an example of Eggman undoing a "past defeat" is valid, since Eggman's entire plan in 06 was controlling the "Flames of Disaster", Iblis.

So truly, what is more likely? Eggman pulling a one in a infinity gamble, and then trapping Blaze in a place he supposedly doesn't remember to lure Sonic to a place that he doesn't know, or Eggman purposely trying to undo his past defeat of not controlling Iblis, fitting with his motivations in the entire game?

Eggman: So I decided to utilize its marvelous capabilities and rewrite the past!

I will let you all decide.
Now to the fourth point, and that the idea that "echoes" existing debunks the idea of hypertimeline in general. Now, let's once more ignore that Gerald is just theorizing with no real proof, and treat everything he says as 100% facts. The point that OP brings is that Mephiles would still exist in its entirety, and Gerald talking about how Shadow changing the past would "erase" the future proves hypertimeline impossible:

This is further supported by the fact that Gerald confirms that if Shadow were to change his past, it would also rewrite his future and that all the things he did in the timeline originally would cease to be,

the erasure of Mephiles's timeline would be nothing more than a movement from one snapshot to another. Mephiles's timeline would still exist in its entirety as a past snapshot.

But Gerald is actually completely wrong here, and this part here:

In a hypertimeline, past versions of a timeline continue to exist.

Is actually completely and utterly confirmed correct thanks to a character named ESP Silver. ESP Silver is an alternative version of Silver introduced in Sonic Runners. But why is he relevant? Because his description implies that he's from the 06 timeline:

Following his split with Blaze, Silver has grown stronger and has discovered his true power.

This is a reference to the ending of Silver's story in 06, where Blaze seals herself in another dimension. ESP Silver returns in Sonic Speed Simulator as well, where he makes overt references to his defunct timeline:

Introduction:

My name is Silver, maybe not the one you know. I've been displaced from my own time and space. Can you help me figure this out?
These waterfalls are breathtaking. In my future, we only have lavafalls.
It's hard to believe a war started here. This valley is so beautiful; maybe you can restore it one day.
It's incredible to see such lush green grass in this timeline. I've strived to improve my future, but it's still nothing like this.
This place reminds me of my future: dark and eerie, but with far fewer flames and lava.
All this lava brings back memories of my future, yet this place has a unique natural charm.
This futuristic city is amazing. I wonder if my world, untouched by devastation, would have looked something like this.
There's so much city life here. I'm not used to such friendly faces.
We've looked all over but I'm still unsure how I got here, I think I might stay around and join your adventure, there has to be new purpose
I can fulfill!
Click to expand...

Eggman wouldn't be able to reach into the "hyperpast" and pull Crisis City out since it would've disappeared already.

So thanks to ESP Silver's existence, and being directly stated to be a different Silver and coming from Crisis City, that means that Eggman can go into the hyperpast and pull Crisis City, and Gerald's theory is proven incorrect. If that wasn't enough, the official Sonic Encyclopedia states on page 237 that Crisis City defied being erased. Meaning that it quite literally did not disappear, and it still existed in some manner, such as a "hyperpast".

For this part:

Also, it's outright confirmed both here and here that there is just a singular dimension of time, that time is only one dimension.

I will leave out this interview by Shun Nakamura, director of Shadow Generations, where he directly states there's there's several time planes and that Time Eater was directly affecting them, but also this comment by Ottavio, who has given me permission to post his argument:

Y'all must have a problem with context and comprehension skills, otherwise I can't explain what I'm seeing.
Are you really trying to use this quote, which comes from a conversation that's explicitly about alternate versions of Sonic across different universes, to argue that the multiverse cannot have more than one time axis?
Be for real.
Amy says:

“Classic Sonic only appeared because of Eggman messing with the time stream. There should be only that one, right?”

Tails responds with:

“Not necessarily. Time is just one dimension of reality! With the endless possibilities of space, there could be an infinite number of Sonics out there…”

What Tails is doing is refuting the idea that time is the only variable that explains multiple Sonics. He expands it to space and possibilities.
His statement has no implication such as “only one temporal axis exists.”

And about Eggman's statement of "the dimension of time", I leave this comment by Neontxme that he also gave me permission to post:

Eggman was clearly referring to the mainline Multiverse, not the Time Eater's Layer or the higher temporal constructs that came later.

Since Eggman merely caused an overarching timeline that links all zones and worlds (White Space.) But these structures (including the remnants like Crisis City) persist even after Time Eater's defeat. So his words are about local continuity, not hypertime as a whole.

Moreover, ITD represents an independent temporal axis. As it's not governed by the Prime's linear time. Rather, it's a realm of temporal dislocation, functioning as a sort of "time highway" outside the normal flow. Which is explicitly treated as distinct from zone-based continuity and the White Space and TEL itself.

To give an analogy:

Think of each timeline as a video on a playlist. The Prime World plays linearly like one video. TEL is like scrubbing through clips from all videos, regardless of where they sit in the playlist. ITD is the buffering cache, it holds fragments from everything, even if they're no longer playing.

Now, for a summary of why it's 6D:
Evidence for the hypertimeline:

1. Time Eater was able to pull a version of the '06 timeline that has Iblis directly at its center, a version of Iblis that would specifically have to be from the erased 06 timeline due to Mephiles being his OG 06 self. This is the Iblis that would have been sealed away in Blaze, and Blaze's dialogue specifically notes it's the Crisis City from 06. We also know it was the Time Eater's doing because it has direct statements of being the cause.

2. The encyclospeedia notes that time was “reset” with Sonic and Elise going back in time, despite all of time at that point being destroyed/erased by Solaris, meaning that they had to set a new version of time prior to the destruction of all time as the basis, and since Solaris exists along time itself, it would mean he exists along the highest echelon of time, the end of time, as he was already capable of consuming timelines with ease going off the Japanese dialogue of his body containing “multiple dimensions” and the quotes that he was or had destroyed all of space time. So, the characters likely jumped to an older version of the timeline before its destruction.

3. Chaos Control can halt time in White Space despite it repeatedly being stated that all of space-time was erased, necessitating the use of Hypertime. Shadow intended to freeze the moment in time where Maria and Gerald were being restored to the timeline in order to prevent it.

Hypertime would obviously have an infinite amount of 4-D snapshots of the timeline, which lines up with two separate sources referring to the stages as "timelines/dimensions", which lines up with how Gerald and these sources point out that each point in time is its own full-fledged universal structure. Meaning that there would be an infinite amount of snapshots for one timeline due to time running infinitely as the default. Characters have used this to pull older versions of existing timelines back into the fray, and thus, the series meets the standard of hypertime.

For a summary of the cosmology:

There's a Mainline Multiverse with a passively growing-changing set with multiple alternative universes throughout the series, with the alternative realities created with every possibility of what could have happened. And timelines are (possibly) infinite.

Which is possible solely because of Power of the Stars, it also consists of a temporal axis being our very first plane of time.

Then Cyber Space(s) serving as a mega server to all information regarding them as a way to pass on their legacy to the future generation, on top of it being a macrocosm of dreams it is also said be a dream in of itself.

After this there's Maginaryworld, the place where all dreams from all other dimensions are assembled and become real, becoming universes/dream worlds. Cyber Space would also be assembled in Maginaryworld due to the Ancient's dream of preserving their legacy with it and the Egg Field due to Dr. Eggman's dream to rewrite the world with it.

Due to the multiverse creating alternate realities based on possibilities, there would also exist innumerable, possibly infinite amounts of Cyber Spaces and Egg Fields out there. This makes Maginaryworld scale to both realms on a larger scale: Possibly Infinite 5-D (infinite 4-Dimensional Space with a time component.)

There's a 4th Dimensional Space, the higher plane of Maginaryworld, dreamed into existence by the Goddess of Dreams herself; Illumina. It encompasses all other Dream worlds, seeing them as nothing but flat images on a screen. It is also described as an infinite fourth-dimensional space and has a time component within it.

All of the aforementioned structures fall under the overarching influence of White Space. A realm that all realities become once they have been erased by the Time Eater (combining this with the SoJ scan of Sonic claiming the Time Eater is at fault for each level's appearance, this would debunk Crisis City being there simply because it's erased) and Time Eater's erasure extending to all of it as we see all points of time + Cyber Space and Spectial Stages. And since it can contain all of the normal multiverse erased inside of it, including Maginaryworld, it is 1 layer above it range-wise.

For Time Eater's Layer being "further away" from the rest of the cosmology than White Space itself. It is 2 layers above it in terms of range wise, needing the Chaos Emeralds to access the realm.

And finally, Infinite Tunnel Dimension, separate from the previous one and explicitly infinite, where objects from other dimensions may drift here. It is implied to be a time dimension. Filling every necessity of another independent temporal axis, approved by Tiering System's FAQ.(Blog)

 

[Telomera]

Sure I guess.

I don't think it's particularly necessary for me to expound any further on why Sonic Prime and Sonic '06 are bad examples since it seems to be mostly accepted that they're not sufficient proof, so I'll argue against using Crisis City as proof and also bring up counterevidence against the existence of a hypertimeline in Sonic as a whole. Refer to the OP if you want to read more about that.

I'd like to emphasize the fact that for there to be proof of a hypertimeline, there has to be proof of nothing less than a higher dimension of time where there is at the very least an uncountably infinite amount of snapshots with entire timeline(s) in each snapshot. The opposition is trying to prove the existence of this higher dimension of time by claiming that the Time Eater supposedly used time travel to restore Crisis City. Keep in mind that with this particular method of argumentation, it is absolutely necessary that they prove that "time travel" is used to directly travel to another version or "snapshot" of an entire timeline (it is so necessary in fact that it is described as "the keyword" in this case). Note that it's not just time travel causing changes in timelines which may then be accessed afterwards (which doesn't require a hypertimeline), but time travel has to be able to directly access these different versions or "snapshots" of entire timeline(s). Without this, they are left with no argument that the development of the timelines between these versions/snapshots is a "time-like" development along a higher flow of time. Without this, their entire argument falls apart. The issue with the opposition's argument is that they have no proof that anyone ever used "time travel" to access a past version of a timeline.

First of all, it's never established that any sort of "time travel" caused the restoration of Crisis City. The opposition has tried their best to prove that the Time Eater directly and intentionally caused the restoration of Crisis City, and while I'm not conceding anything, I want to point out that they have never provided any proof that "time travel" was used by Eggman/Time Eater to directly access pre-erasure Crisis City. Without this, they have no method of claiming that the development of timelines is time-like. They do seem to argue that it's because Time Eater makes heavy use of time manipulation, but it's stupid to pick and choose whatever thing you want that Time Eater did and claim that it was done through time travel just because Time Eater uses a lot of time manipulation powers. You cannot say that a certain thing done by Time Eater was done through time travel unless it is specifically stated; otherwise, you would be committing the association fallacy

Secondly, in Shadow Generations, Gerald Robotnik responds to Shadow asking him about Mephiles by explaining that as a result of the timestream being tampered with, echoes from the past are being stirred up, which explains why Mephiles (someone who Shadow has no knowledge of since Mephiles's timeline was erased at the end of Sonic '06) is there. (there is a past because the timestream was healing itself along with Sonic and Shadow helping restore it btw) This means that instead of being a past snapshot that Time Eater traveled to via time travel, Mephiles and Crisis City are just echoes of an erased timeline that were stirred up by the Time Eater's meddling with the timestream. It's not an entirely different snapshot of a timeline, but just "resemblances/leftovers" of an erased timeline as Qawsedf put it. This was an educated guess on Gerald's part, but it makes a lot more sense than Eggman randomly stopping his rampage across time and reaching back in hypertime to restore a timeline he didn't even remember (Gerald actually said his theory was correct but I'm not 100% sure if this also refers to him talking about the echoes)

Now, I will respond to some counterarguments. Theuser789 claimed that this contradicts the fact that Time Eater made a portal to the erased Crisis City before destroying spacetime. But not only is this not confirmed to be an instance of "time travel" (which is absolutely necessary for a hypertimeline argument since there has to not just be an arrangement of snapshots, but a time-like arrangement of uncountably infinite snapshots), it fails to account for the fact that the Time Eater had already been destroying spacetime even before it opened the portal to Crisis City in modern Sonic's timeline. That means that the "damage done to the time stream" that had been "stirring up" the echoes of Crisis City and Mephiles had already taken place by the time the portal was opened up. There was no need for Time Eater to reach back into some sort of hypertimeline to get those echoes because those echoes were already there (which would also explain the presence of Iblis since all versions of Iblis were parts of the '06 timeline). This order of events is made quite clear in the cutscene, and it makes no sense to deny it.

Theuser789 also argues that Crisis City coming up in Eggman's flashback proves that Eggman must have gone back in hypertime to pull Crisis City out of nonexistence, but this a huge stretch. All that this appearance means is that the presence of Crisis City was one of the consequences of Eggman's plan, specifically due to being "stirred up" as a side effect of his tampering with the time stream. There's nothing more to it than that, and anything more is headcanon and a non sequitur.

Now considering all this, the opposition has no way to justify their claims of the existence of a hypertimeline, which should be enough to remove this scaling. But that's not all. There's actually counterevidence that actually goes against the idea of there being a hypertimeline in Sonic at all.

The fact that only echoes are left of Mephiles's timeline being erased contradicts the claim of a hypertimeline, because if there was a hypertimeline, the erasure of Mephiles's timeline would be nothing more than a movement from one snapshot to another. Mephiles's timeline would still exist in its entirety as a past snapshot. The fact that only echoes are left of Mephiles's timeline contradicts this. This is further supported by the fact that Gerald confirms that if Shadow were to change his past, it would also rewrite his future and that all the things he did in the timeline originally would cease to be, which is absolutely not how a hypertimeline works. In a hypertimeline, past versions of a timeline continue to exist. On the contrary, Gerald confirms that they cease to exist. This actually does happen to be relevant to the Crisis City issue too though because, since old versions of timelines cease to exist when a timeline undergoes change, Eggman wouldn't be able to reach into the "hyperpast" and pull Crisis City out since it would've disappeared already. That's yet another reason why Gerald's explanation with the "echoes" makes much more sense than any of this hypertimeline stuff.

Also, it's outright confirmed both here and here that there is just a singular dimension of time, that time is only one dimension.

In all, not only is there no proof of a hypertimeline, there's actually counterevidence that disproves the existence of a hypertimeline in the game Sonic verse.

Bumping my summary post up so staff can see it on the same page as Theuser789's

 

[AyOgUyS]

After reading a good chunk of the messages, I disagree with OP. Theuser’s arguments make sense to me

 

[KLOL506]

@Planck69 @DarkDragonMedeus @Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Maverick_Zero_X @Elizhaa @LephyrTheRevanchist @Starter_Pack @Just_a_Random_Butler @Theglassman12

Summaries have been made.

Telomera's summary - here

Theuser's summary - here

 

[ÆONS]

After reading a good chunk of the messages, I disagree with OP. Theuser’s arguments make sense to me

I also disagree with the OP.

Telomera's arguments did seem to be confused and disordered which is why I was never convinced by his argument. He made too many mistakes in interpreting facts and relied on faulty logic to make his points. Theuser and the other Sonic experts have done a great job in responding to them by providing well-sourced and detailed counter-arguments to the OP.

 

[Causalist]

I thought this whole thing was gonna end up being a mind-**** of self contradictions regardless of the conclusion we come to, but User's summary just has everything line up together perfectly shockingly well, which is an insane feat for a series like Sonic.

Disagree FRA. The 6D explanation is way more compelling now than it was before.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I think Telomera's summary is a lot more coherent and think the way summaries were done was also not properly thought of by the OP and others admittedly. Since Theuser essentially had the last word to counterargue against OP summary in his own rather than both just posting a summary of already existing counterpoints and arguing on their own why it would or not be the case. But what can you do, I don't think you can really fault anyone.

 

[Theuser789]

Since Theuser essentially had the last word to counterargue against OP summary

That's how pro and against summaries work. You argue why that's the case, and the opposition argues otherwise. That's how literally every debates goes, getting the "last word" doesn't make your points stronger.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

That's how pro and against summaries work. You argue why that's the case, and the opposition argues otherwise. That's how literally every debates goes, getting the "last word" doesn't make your points stronger.

i personally think its just better for both to post their summaries in a vacuum from each other with already existing information in the thread but it doesnt matter

 

[JJSliderman]

Well think of it as, if the downgrade side wins its more impressive winning from a disadvantage state.

 

[Mythic381]

Well think of it as, if the downgrade side wins its more impressive winning from a disadvantage state.

No one can beat the Sonic goons (jk)

Anyways, gotta say I disagree with the OP for the last summary.

 

[Theuser789]

i personally think its just better for both to post their summaries in a vacuum from each other with already existing information in the thread but it doesnt matter

Telomera's summary is just his arguments, well, summarized. He didn't bring any new points. By countering it directly, I can adress the exact problems I have with the downgrade side arguments rather than hunt for them in the thread.

 

[KLOL506]

Let's just wait for Staff to put in their verdicts, yeah?

 

[JJSliderman]

Fair, were they tagged?

 

[KLOL506]

Fair, were they tagged?

Yes. I already tagged 'em.

 

[Dalesean027]

Alright, my summary will be mostly focused on debunking and countering the summary of OP, as it seems these are the backbones of his current points.
Firstly, I will skip the first paragraph since it's basically just setting up the rest of the post anyway, and focus on the claim that "Time Travel" wasn't used by the Time Eater.

It's stated by Tails that Time Eater traveling through time causes the stages to appear in White Space.



Sonic states in an officially SoJ sponsored interview that every stage in Generations was caused by the attacks of the Time Eater:




This means that, yes, the Time Eater did attack every zone in Generations. (And before someone says it, Sonic remembers 06, so he would know if Crisis City would've been there normally or not). We know from Tails that the Time Eater by travelling through time, so for Crisis City to have been attacked, he would have had to time-travel to it.

But if that wasn't enough, Sonic Generations is referred to as a time-travelling story. Shadow is also stated to be travelling across timelines and dimensions. Time Eater's movement through time is what erases time and space. This shows that time-travel was used to travel towards different timelines, including the erased 06 timeline.

Now, for the second point, which is the "echo" point. This one is far easier to explain.
Gerald does say that echoes of past foes can show up because of everything that happened:

Now, let's be fair and ignore that Gerald just thinks this is a theory. After all, I used this Tails statement as proof that the Time Eater targeted Crisis City, after all:


However, the keyword here is that Gerald says that the damage caused to the timestream is what triggers the past alterations. Meaning that if time has not been damaged, no echoes are appearing.

This is something OP has conceded to, however:

With them already using a counter-argument of Time Eater having already caused damage to the timestream, letting the apparitions of echoes appear. However, even ignoring that currently on the wikia, this scene is not accepted as Time Eater destroying part of space, and instead, him already destroying all of time:

(Classic Sonic's current page).

That scene is indeed when Time Eater destroyed all of space and time. Thanks to Shadow Generations, we can see Time Eater simultaneously appear for Sonic and Shadow. (Despite Sonic being on Earth, and Shadow being in space in the ARK). This is also shown by the fact that Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic appear in White Space around the same time. So, in conclusion, Time Eater didn't mess with the timestream before summoning Crisis City; both the Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic scenes happen at the same "time" when Time Eater destroys all of time and space.

Now, the third point is what I call an "argument of incredulity". Basically, treating it as if it's too impossible for Eggman to grab the Crisis City from a hypertimeline for various reasons:


Now, ignoring the fact that these aren't real arguments. Ignoring the fact that I can pull an uno-reverse and say that Eggman luckily pulling the equivalent of an SSR gachapull to summon Crisis City is even more unlikely, since there are infinite moments in time and infinite timelines, and we know that Eggman purposely summoned Crisis City to lure Sonic in.


And as we know, Sonic himself said all the places he went are nostalgic, including Crisis City. I could also discuss how ignoring the flashback is a genuine media illiterate move, as it's a clear storytelling device to pan over and show "the past defeats" that Eggman mentions in his dialogue, but there's no need.

The main argument for the argument of incredulity is that "Eggman doesn't remember it."

Which... isn't really confirmed nor true at all. We know for a fact that Sonic does remember it, since, as said previously, Sonic considers all of Time Eater's zones familiar and nostalgic, and has shown to remember 06 before, as well, but even Blaze, the one Eggman trapped in Crisis City, remembers 06 in Generations:

Meaning, there's no actual proof that Eggman doesn't remember 06, meaning that it being used in the flashback as an example of Eggman undoing a "past defeat" is valid, since Eggman's entire plan in 06 was controlling the "Flames of Disaster", Iblis.

So truly, what is more likely? Eggman pulling a one in a infinity gamble, and then trapping Blaze in a place he supposedly doesn't remember to lure Sonic to a place that he doesn't know, or Eggman purposely trying to undo his past defeat of not controlling Iblis, fitting with his motivations in the entire game?

I will let you all decide.
Now to the fourth point, and that the idea that "echoes" existing debunks the idea of hypertimeline in general. Now, let's once more ignore that Gerald is just theorizing with no real proof, and treat everything he says as 100% facts. The point that OP brings is that Mephiles would still exist in its entirety, and Gerald talking about how Shadow changing the past would "erase" the future proves hypertimeline impossible:


But Gerald is actually completely wrong here, and this part here:

Is actually completely and utterly confirmed correct thanks to a character named ESP Silver. ESP Silver is an alternative version of Silver introduced in Sonic Runners. But why is he relevant? Because his description implies that he's from the 06 timeline:

This is a reference to the ending of Silver's story in 06, where Blaze seals herself in another dimension. ESP Silver returns in Sonic Speed Simulator as well, where he makes overt references to his defunct timeline:


So thanks to ESP Silver's existence, and being directly stated to be a different Silver and coming from Crisis City, that means that Eggman can go into the hyperpast and pull Crisis City, and Gerald's theory is proven incorrect. If that wasn't enough, the official Sonic Encyclopedia states on page 237 that Crisis City defied being erased. Meaning that it quite literally did not disappear, and it still existed in some manner, such as a "hyperpast".

For this part:

I will leave out this interview by Shun Nakamura, director of Shadow Generations, where he directly states there's there's several time planes and that Time Eater was directly affecting them, but also this comment by Ottavio, who has given me permission to post his argument:

And about Eggman's statement of "the dimension of time", I leave this comment by Neontxme that he also gave me permission to post:



Now, for a summary of why it's 6D:
Evidence for the hypertimeline:

1. Time Eater was able to pull a version of the '06 timeline that has Iblis directly at its center, a version of Iblis that would specifically have to be from the erased 06 timeline due to Mephiles being his OG 06 self. This is the Iblis that would have been sealed away in Blaze, and Blaze's dialogue specifically notes it's the Crisis City from 06. We also know it was the Time Eater's doing because it has direct statements of being the cause.

2. The encyclospeedia notes that time was “reset” with Sonic and Elise going back in time, despite all of time at that point being destroyed/erased by Solaris, meaning that they had to set a new version of time prior to the destruction of all time as the basis, and since Solaris exists along time itself, it would mean he exists along the highest echelon of time, the end of time, as he was already capable of consuming timelines with ease going off the Japanese dialogue of his body containing “multiple dimensions” and the quotes that he was or had destroyed all of space time. So, the characters likely jumped to an older version of the timeline before its destruction.

3. Chaos Control can halt time in White Space despite it repeatedly being stated that all of space-time was erased, necessitating the use of Hypertime. Shadow intended to freeze the moment in time where Maria and Gerald were being restored to the timeline in order to prevent it.

Hypertime would obviously have an infinite amount of 4-D snapshots of the timeline, which lines up with two separate sources referring to the stages as "timelines/dimensions", which lines up with how Gerald and these sources point out that each point in time is its own full-fledged universal structure. Meaning that there would be an infinite amount of snapshots for one timeline due to time running infinitely as the default. Characters have used this to pull older versions of existing timelines back into the fray, and thus, the series meets the standard of hypertime.

For a summary of the cosmology:

There's a Mainline Multiverse with a passively growing-changing set with multiple alternative universes throughout the series, with the alternative realities created with every possibility of what could have happened. And timelines are (possibly) infinite.

Which is possible solely because of Power of the Stars, it also consists of a temporal axis being our very first plane of time.

Then Cyber Space(s) serving as a mega server to all information regarding them as a way to pass on their legacy to the future generation, on top of it being a macrocosm of dreams it is also said be a dream in of itself.

After this there's Maginaryworld, the place where all dreams from all other dimensions are assembled and become real, becoming universes/dream worlds. Cyber Space would also be assembled in Maginaryworld due to the Ancient's dream of preserving their legacy with it and the Egg Field due to Dr. Eggman's dream to rewrite the world with it.

Due to the multiverse creating alternate realities based on possibilities, there would also exist innumerable, possibly infinite amounts of Cyber Spaces and Egg Fields out there. This makes Maginaryworld scale to both realms on a larger scale: Possibly Infinite 5-D (infinite 4-Dimensional Space with a time component.)

There's a 4th Dimensional Space, the higher plane of Maginaryworld, dreamed into existence by the Goddess of Dreams herself; Illumina. It encompasses all other Dream worlds, seeing them as nothing but flat images on a screen. It is also described as an infinite fourth-dimensional space and has a time component within it.

All of the aforementioned structures fall under the overarching influence of White Space. A realm that all realities become once they have been erased by the Time Eater (combining this with the SoJ scan of Sonic claiming the Time Eater is at fault for each level's appearance, this would debunk Crisis City being there simply because it's erased) and Time Eater's erasure extending to all of it as we see all points of time + Cyber Space and Spectial Stages. And since it can contain all of the normal multiverse erased inside of it, including Maginaryworld, it is 1 layer above it range-wise.

For Time Eater's Layer being "further away" from the rest of the cosmology than White Space itself. It is 2 layers above it in terms of range wise, needing the Chaos Emeralds to access the realm.

And finally, Infinite Tunnel Dimension, separate from the previous one and explicitly infinite, where objects from other dimensions may drift here. It is implied to be a time dimension. Filling every necessity of another independent temporal axis, approved by Tiering System's FAQ.(Blog)

Yeah gonna have to side with user here. This post is a lot more convincing

 

[Theuser789]

Yeah gonna have to side with user here. This post is a lot more convincing

This makes 3 staff disagreements now.

Edit: 4 staff disagreements now.

 

[Firestorm808]

I lean toward Theuser789's proposal.

 

[Elizhaa]

I agree with Theuser789's view.

 

[Mythic381]

I think this is pretty much settled.

 

[ÆONS]

It's over

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Phenomenal battle of wits

 

[Causalist]

That's how pro and against summaries work. You argue why that's the case, and the opposition argues otherwise. That's how literally every debates goes, getting the "last word" doesn't make your points stronger.

It doesn't make them stronger, but it can make them appear that way, which is something I had to account for before asserting that you won this debate fair and square, which you did.

GGs.

 

[KLOL506]

So disagreements are: 5 - Maverick Zero X (Assuming they still keep their vote of disagreement), Theglassman12 (He's almost definitely not gonna budge), Elizhaa, Firestorm808, Dalesean027.

Neutral: 2 - DarkDragonMedeus, Qawsedf234

Do what you will with it. If you have disagreements with regards to the validity of their votes, ask them personally to clarify their stance.

 

[Robo432343]

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

So disagreements are: 5 - Maverick Zero X (Assuming they still keep their vote of disagreement), Theglassman12 (He's almost definitely not gonna budge), Elizhaa, Firestorm808, Dalesean027.

Neutral: 2 - DarkDragonMedeus, Qawsedf234

Do what you will with it. If you have disagreements with regards to the validity of their votes, ask them personally to clarify their stance.

Maverick liked Theusers post so chances are there's no change.
I'd say to just close the thread but maybe OP wants to say something idk.

 

[Mythic381]

I'd say to just close the thread but maybe OP wants to say something idk.

"Any last words OP?"
"Yeah, volcano wonderpants!"
"What? that doesn't even make-"

Makes another Sonic downgrade.

 

[OrangeFR]

It’s Sonover for the haters rn. Disagree with OP now.

 

[Robo432343]

OP stand proud don't give up with the downgrades

 

[JJSliderman]

HT stays while nonduality goes, soul for a soul

 

[ShakeResounding]

OP stand proud don't give up with the downgrades

If you're gonna be a fiend to see the verse downgraded, at least pretend to look like you have a brain and make it subtle.