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Lemme check
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Deactivating Anti-Hypertime annihilation mechanism limiter... | Sonic Cosmology Downgrade Part ?: Hypertimelines
- Thread starter Telomera
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No, Qaw said he disagrees
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He's not. Ian collaborated with other writers in a joint effort. Stuff like the Mephiles fight was all SoJ, for example. Furthermore, the comment you are posting (the dimension of time) isn't there in the Japanese version.
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Oh sorry I was reading this and I didn't finish it
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That doesn't matter when the original script for gens was English and the japanese version was actually the localisation of the english version.
And Sega making an effort to rewrite it and hiring Ian Flynn to do it (who is writing the IDW comics and wrote the frontiers dialogue which both are canon) just for us to ignore it for no reason is just wrong.
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This is blatantly false. The original script for Sonic Generations was Japanese, and the localization script was made by Pontaff and Graff. It was Lost World that was written by them originally. In fact, Ian Flynn's rewritten version is even more of a localization, as Sega kept their original script in Japanese.
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Also, it likely wasn't even time eater that caused Mephiles to come back, that wouldn't make sense (why would Eggman purposefully just go back and restore the realm for no reason?). Gerald guessed that alterations in the timestream were stirring up echoes of past alterations which makes a lot more sense than Time Eater bringing someone back to life for no reason after destroying everything else. Mephiles and crisis city are likely just an "echo" of his erased reality, especially considering the fact that the Crisis city that was brought back wasn't even a full timeline but a 3D location with its time erased.
But does this require hypertime? No, the "past" likely refers to the normal past. This game took place after '06. Additionally, both Sonic and the timestream healing itself (and most likely Shadow as well considering the fact that he was restoring color to areas like Sonic) were repairing the timestream, so there was in fact spacetime with a normal past. And the fact that Mephiles was but an "echo" of past alterations pretty strongly implies that the erased version of the timeline is otherwise completely gone with only echoes remaining, which contradicts the idea of hypertime (where all the snapshots still exist after you leave them, they don't just disappear even if they seem to be "erased").
This actually contradicts the idea of a hypertimeline too: Gerald explains that if Shadow were to rewrite the timeline, the old version of the timeline with all the things Shadow did would "cease to be." That directly contradicts the fact that all snapshots in a hypertimeline continue to exist even after you leave them for another.
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What's that Wikipedia supposed to prove? Like, genuinely? Yes, Ian Flynn wrote a rewritten version of the English script for Generations. Yes, that version isn't the actual original script for the game, which was kept in Japanese, as you can see in the video I linked. Genuinely, what did you actually mean by this?
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In this context, the regular time dimensions was erased, the only alterations made during Gens was that of Hypertime, as that was the only time dimension left to alter
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I literally explained in that exact post that the timestream was partially repaired at that point due to Sonic, Shadow, and even the timestream itself repairing the timeline.
Also, it's crazy to just say "well, they may have erased 'all of time', but let's just reinterpret 'all of time' as 'a 4D subset of time' and assume that there's just an entirely higher dimension of time that is unaccounted for for some reason and just isn't used by the same protagonists that supposedly have access to it in situations when they have every reason to use it."
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Ok no, that would be true if the context wasn't obvious in the scene itself.
Modern Eggman : After Sonic ruined my interstellar amusement park, I stumbled upon a dark, primordial essence. I discovered it possessed abilities I've long desired to harness for myself! Namely that it could travel through the dimension of time! So I decided to utilize its marvelous capabilities and rewrite the past!
He was talking in the past tense when space and time weren't erased yet (There are many details but they are kinda irrelevent for the thread itself)
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Wrong, they repair individual moments, none of which were the ones Maria and Gerald would have existed in
Also this doesn't explain the Time Eater briging in Crisis City anf the 06 timeline into White Space, those, as Qaw, Shake and User said, require a Hypertimeline to explain
Again, this is talking about the characters of the past not changing history when they go back to their time periods, this has nothing to do with the timelime fixing itself, else Mephiles would already exist again
That is literally what it ia showed to us in the game, yes, being condecending about it doesn't change that
Sonic can't travel through time normally? Why do you think he has as a separated rating on his profile? Also this would be a "hole" regardless of Hypertime or not? You are just creating a strawman to attack, it doesn't mean anything
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Again, this doesn't prove there is only 1 dimension of time... and it isn't relevant to the point you are quotting? Again... it doesn't mean anything other than A dimension of time existing... it doesn't prove or disprove anything regarding if there's more
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This is in fact raises many questions such as:
- He forgot everything from 06 due to the time paradox, it’s like it never happened for him.
- Saying the Time Eater grabbed locations in order, paused, somehow reached into an erased timeline to snatch Crisis City, then resumed, that’s a stretch.
- He has zero reason to grab Crisis City in the first place. He didn’t even know it existed, he didn't even know crisis city was a thing nor there was a ruined future in Sonic 06. and it wasn’t part of his timeline anymore. Why would he include it in his “rewrite my previous defeats” plan?
The hypertimeline requires way too many assumptions and introduces loopholes that don’t need to exist. The far simpler, more consistent explanation? The temporal instability pulled 06 stuff in as a side effect.
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New releases that deliberately make revisions take priority over old ones. It's basically a retcon.
Original new release (ENG) > localized new release (JP) >> original old release (JP) > localized old release (ENG)
But if you still don't like that, the Tailstube statement still exists which was originally written by Ian Flynn
Gerald mentioned that time in general is able to heal itself to an extent. Why do you think Maria and Gerald were able to move if Tails having his time erased made him get frozen? They're just human, so it's clear that their spacetime must've been restored.
Qawsedf only thought that it required a hypertimeline because he was under the false impression that Time Eater "explicitly used time travel" to access Mephiles's existence.
Changing the past actually does change your future in the verse, what are you talking about?
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Because?
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Why he did it literally doesn't matter for the point in question of it even being there period being a proof for a Hypertimeline tho?
Like... even from your point... it still proves a hypertimeline from it even being brought there
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I think the idea of turning time travel being inconsistently portrayed into a higher time dimension is part of the reason why hypertimelines on VSBW suck. Then when you're faced with genuine problems like all of time being destroyed then they hide behind the defense of "all of time in context of 1 time dimension" when it's never even once in the narrative that there's a higher time dimension.
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The english version is the original of the old release, the japanese version is the localisation
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No it doesn't. Qawsedf actually pointed out the fact that without it being established that time travel brought Crisis City back, there is no justification for the claim of the hypertimeline existing.
Unbeknownst to him they actually weren't using "explicit time travel powers" to reach Mephiles, it really was just "State 1 is erased, they're in State 2." Thus, there is no proof of a hypertimeline here. Time Eater didn't even restore Mephiles in the first place, Mephiles was just a residual echo of his erased timeline.
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Really? Didn't know that. That obviously doesn't take away from my point though as you'd agree.
ExcelsisBerny
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I agree with this.
The fact that narratively only 1 dimension of time exists should already dismantle any implications of the opposite idea.
ExcelsisBerny
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Honestly, the position in favor of this thread strikes me as much stronger. The arguments supporting the hyper-timeline are self-contradictory.
I agree with the OP fra.
I agree with the OP fra.
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I don’t think Time Eater intentionally chose to target crisis city, moreso just in the crossfire of it erasing all of space time it just happened to reach it.
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They weren’t restored, they were just protected by the temporal instability Black Doom created, that’s why when he was defeated they immediately disappeared. The temporal restoration is primarily in regards to time paradoxes.
There are also moments where it doesn’t, notably ESP Silver’s entire existence being an offshoot from the Solaris crisis timeline that remained when Solaris was wiped from existence.
Time Eater’s entire existence throughout the story is tearing through timelines and erasing things when he arrives there, he can even reach into purely hypothetical timelines that never had the chance to exist like stardust bad future to pull them into white space, him being able to reach erased timelines and affect them is not inconsistent, and the overall dead and colorless look of white space matched the rest of the game’s levels that were affected by time eater.
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I feel like if someone sent the clip where Tails said, "Time is just one dimension of reality!" earlier, there would be a lot less pages...
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Even with that quote it doesn’t debunk the idea of time being multi-leveled.
ExcelsisBerny
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It quite literally does.
Hypertime is (by definition) an additional temporal axis to the one a continuous spacetime already has, not a single dimension with 'multiple levels' or whatever that’s supposed to mean.
Here they’re giving you a direct definition of time inverse.
From a semantic standpoint, the net content of the sentence can be split in two:
C1: Time is just one dimension of reality.
C2: within the endless possibilities of space.
Formally, the sentence asserts that (C1) time is a singular, ordinary member of the set of ‘dimensions’ that structure reality, and (C2) it places that claim ‘within’ a spatial domain conceived as ‘infinite’ or of ‘endless possibilities.’
In other words, time is defined as a single axis, not two. That sentence is simply describing an ordinary space-time.
And here it states that the Time Eater moves in the time dimension (singular), the one Tails defined above.
There isn’t the slightest mention of a multi-level time or anything like that. The whole argument basically rests on an inconsistency in a franchise that’s full of inconsistencies because everything is brainlessly established as canon regardless of internal coherence.
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Is there any form of higher causality that encompasses the multiverse?
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List me as agreeing for now then.
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I don't think so.
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I updated the OP post
I mean, there's no statement of such a thing. The closest you get to that is the fact that entire timelines are able to undergo change, but that's obviously possible without higher scaling (you can destroy or rewrite 2-C timelines without the need for any Tier 1 hypertimelines).
The way it works compared to hypertimelines is also quite different. When Mephiles's world was erased from existence, it was able to come back but only as a residual echo. If it was a hypertimeline, it would still exist in its entirety as a snapshot, but that's just not how it is. This is also supported by Gerald confirming that if Shadow were to change his past, it would also rewrite his future, and all his triumphs, all he's learned, all the good he's done he did in the timeline would cease to be as opposed to perpetually existing as a snapshot in hypertime.
In terms of actual time dimensions however, it's confirmed that there is only one dimension of time in the verse.
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No, it literally isn't for Generations. Genuinely, stop spreading actual misinformation.
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Sorry, but they are wrong. Gerald was just assuming, but we know Time Eater explicitly restored Crisis City (06 timeline) directly.
Eggman explicitly states that he used the Time Eater's power to "restore his past defeats" and then "send Sonic's friends through time and space as traps". (15:52)
In the introduction scene, we literally see Crisis City in the wormhole of the Time Eater, the one Blaze is sent towards.
Look at 2:10, the third from the left bottom hole. That's Crisis City.
So even if you agree that Mephiles wasn't restored by the Time Eater, Crisis City HAD to have been. Eggman sents Blaze there BEFORE destroying Time and Space.
NeonTxme
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No it literally doesn't??
It's taken of out-of-context. Tails was speaking about the mainline Multiverse, that has multiple alternative universes throughout the series, with the alternative realities created with every possibility of what could have happened. The total number of realities being "possibly infinite".
Can we not like forget about the Time Eater's Lair and Infinite Tunnel Dimension?
Let me make a clarification, White Space is NOT a higher dimension. It's Atemporal and Aspatial, and basically Non-Existence; known as a realm between realms. This realm encompasses the entire cosmology (e.g. Prime World; Stardust Speedway, an alternative "Bad future"; Crisis City "an alternative timeline/an universe that never was" and several Special Stages. It is a realm that all realities become once they have been erased by the Time Eater, making it an non-existent in nature, lacking all aspects from the rest of the multiverse, as the Time Eater's erasure extended to all of it. Thus as it can contain all of the normal multiverse erased inside of it, including Maginaryworld and Cyberspace which are 5-D.)
Then we got TEL and ITD, TEL being a dimension that appears immediately after Modern Sonic and Classic Sonic repair the portal mechanism using the 7 Chaos Emeralds thus escaping the White Space. This and the following dimension remained unaffected by the destruction of all of time and space across all of reality made by the Eggmen and their Completed Time Eater, thus it is further away from the rest of the cosmology than Whitespace.
And ITD is is the dimension where the battle with Time Eater took place, separate from the previous one, objects from other dimensions may drift here and it goes on forever as it is infinite. It is implied to be a time dimension as flying through it is treated as the same as flying through the end of time, even when the space-time of the rest of the multiverse was erased, making it a different time dimension than the rest of cosmology. Additionally the Time Eater could alter its flows to even slow down both of the Super Sonics despite previously Sonic being able to freely move when the flow of time was put to a complete stop or outright removed, cross an infinite distance within a finite time and Super States doing this while time was distorted and are able to travel through it.
It is 1-C (6-D) due to it being a Hypertimeline that encompasses all the rest of the cosmology.
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The Japanese version of Generations isn't an adaptation. It's the original script of the game that wasn't edited, unlike the English script. Can the opposition stop spreading objectively false information, please?
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To make it clearer, I circled Crisis City from Time Eater's portal among the rest.
I feel like this should clearly show that Crisis City was restored directly by the Time Eater's involvement.
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