- 470
- 307
- Thread starter
- #121
Stop derailing the thread. If you don't want to make any arguments, just say "Disagree FRA," and don't post further
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Deactivating Anti-Hypertime annihilation mechanism limiter... | Sonic Cosmology Downgrade Part ?: Hypertimelines
- Thread starter Telomera
- Start date
- Status
- 7,304
- 2,621
Encyclopedia does say that time was reset as Elise and Sonic went back, which does go against the idea they went to a time period before the destroyed timeline.
- 52,603
- 46,827
I DISAGREE, FRA. Jesus Christ on a Carnosaur, be more subtle.
ShakeResounding
He/Him- 10,415
- 11,175
What do you think "time was reset" implies, JJ?
- 470
- 307
- Thread starter
- #125
Either way, the opposition's argument is based upon the claim that their movement between those states was time-like (often proven by showing that time travel was the type of movement used), which there is no proof of. Thus, there is no proof of a hypertimeline, at least not one with uncountably infinite snapshots
- 7,304
- 2,621
That time went back to a “factory default” level, aka normal. Then they used that restored time to time travel.
- 7,304
- 2,621
The debate being about whether they used time travel makes no sense, I think it’s pretty obvious the game all about time travel and jumping between time points using both Solaris’ power and the chaos emeralds, uses time travel in the scene with Solaris and the characters returning 10 years prior. My concern is about whether they went from a destroyed timeline to a prior version of said destroyed timeline, as opposed to going back within a single timeline.
- 5,366
- 2,829
Agreed FRA.
Disagree FRA with the thread though.
- 470
- 307
- Thread starter
- #129
Right, I guess that is a bit different. JJSliderman has the right approach in saying that time being "reset" does indicate that time was first restored before they went to that erased point in time. That's possible without a hypertimeline.
- 22,683
- 23,252
This was the accepted justification with Solaris. That since the time was erased and time manipulation was used to resummon it, you get the needed logic for a hypertimeline.
If Solaris was never erased however, there is no justification for a hypertimeline in Sonic.
- 470
- 307
- Thread starter
- #132
Yeah you're right, I made a mistake saying time travel didn't have to be involved with that scene. My issue with some of the time travel claims is that the opposition is falsely claiming that time travel is the direct cause of them going from one timeline snapshot to another, which would imply that there is a higher timeline along which the timeline snapshots are located.
- 10,258
- 6,750
He was. I'm assuming you're talking about Generations, right? Mephiles straight up says he "wants to exist" in that game.
Time Eater restored him, thus hypertimeline.
- 1,170
- 967
I was talking to JJ and how he is getting closer to the point I'm trying to make, thank you.
Maybe keep that comment to this one below.
I wasn't playing the victim, like all, all what I did was complaining about the standards of sources.
Also I was mocking anyone nor I implied anyone who disagreed with me is slow nor I said someone's argument is "unsupported headcanon", at least if you want me to look bad in the thread, do it correctly.
- 1,170
- 967
Solaris was erased.
- 470
- 307
- Thread starter
- #136
They didn't just directly time travel into an erased period of time though. JJSliderman pointed out the fact that the reason they were able to get to the past was because time was reset, which restored the time that they went to. There's no proof that they traveled along a higher timeline that contained both the erased time and the intact time.
- 10,258
- 6,750
He's talking about Sonic Generations, where Time Eater did erase the 06 timeline and the Sonics brought it back. So yes, White Space did have normal time and erased time in itself.
- 470
- 307
- Thread starter
- #138
Mephiles being restored can still happen along one time dimension without the need for any extras. He is just one being, not an entire spacetime continuum
But was them bringing it back something that happened in a "time-like" manner? You keep bringing up cases where the states of entire timelines are changed, but restoring a timeline from existence only requires a finite amount of snapshots (first, one where it exists, then one where it doesn't, then one where it does again)
- 408
- 186
I disagree with the thread starter
ShakeResounding
He/Him- 10,415
- 11,175
Except this is a constant issue with you in any Sonic thread. Rather than speaking to somebody like somebody mature, you hide behind coy comments and an attitude you perpetually deny is condescending.
Also to @Telomera, I think we'll just agree to disagree since I think any further debate will lead into running in circles and just occupying more replies. T'was a fun debate with you, we'll let staff judge and whatnot. Hopefully there's no bad blood, buddy
- 7,304
- 2,621
I believe Solaris exists on a similar level to the end of time, given his general transcendence over standard timelines and how he was unaffected by the absorption or destruction of standard dimensions.
My initial belief was that he allowed travel along the end of time to get around time itself being erased, but it’s hard to reconcile that with the encyclopedia quote of time being reset simultaneous with or before Sonic returns to the past.
My initial belief was that he allowed travel along the end of time to get around time itself being erased, but it’s hard to reconcile that with the encyclopedia quote of time being reset simultaneous with or before Sonic returns to the past.
- 470
- 307
- Thread starter
- #142
Sure, don't worry.
The main disagreement is on whether these cases were demonstrations of altered states of timelines (AKA "hypersnapshots") being accessed directly by time travel along one flow of time, right? Us agreeing on that could help the judges out
And to clarify, me saying "along one flow of time" is because a lot of these cases are obviously going from one point in time to another, which you could call "time travel." I just think that it's a discrete jump from one point in time in one flow of time to another point in time in another flow of time, whereas you think that they are time traveling from one point in time along a hypertimeline to another point in time along that same hypertimeline.
- 7,304
- 2,621
I don’t really understand the distinction here, although in Generations Super Sonic does flow in one continuous motion down throughout the end of time, which is the hypertimeline in question.
- 10,258
- 6,750
Good thing we have an entire space-time continuum in the form of Crisis City, Silver's destroyed timeline that is explicitly its own thing.
- 7,304
- 2,621
I also disagree with time travel allowing for a reset of time, you need time to exist for time travel to be feasible. Granted, I don’t necessarily think it debunks the idea that characters used a higher order of time to time travel, as Solaris’ physiology does still exist as higher dimensional compared to standard timelines, but the notion of it being a hypertimeline may be questionable because they don’t use to go from a destroyed version of the timeline to a previous non-destroyed version, going off what the encyclopedia says.
I might switch my vote to agreeing with the hypertimeline being removed, although maybe other verses with hypertime should be examined with similar scrutiny.
I might switch my vote to agreeing with the hypertimeline being removed, although maybe other verses with hypertime should be examined with similar scrutiny.
- 470
- 307
- Thread starter
- #146
If they were time traveling along one flow in time, it would imply that there would be an uncountably infinite amount of timeline snapshots that they passed through between them being in a shattered timeline and them being in a fixed timeline. Let me try illustrating this with text since paint.net is being really slow to install (I switched pcs and this pc doesn't have it yet)
My view
broken timeline--------------reset timeline
///--------------------------------|
| <Sonic in the present----------|
///--------------------------------|<sonic in the past
I think they just went from broken timeline to reset timeline without anything in the middle.
Shake's view
broken timeline [------------uncountably infinite timelines in between------------------] reset timeline
///-------------------------?-------...-------?------...--------?--------------...--------------?-----...-----------|
| <Sonic in the present---?-------...-------?------...--------?--------------...--------------?-----...-----------|
///-------------------------?-------...-------?------...--------?--------------...--------------?-----...-----------| <Sonic in the past
---------------------------------------------------hypertimeline---------------------------------------------------->
Last edited:
- 470
- 307
- Thread starter
- #147
Restoring a timeline still doesn't require an uncountably infinite number of snapshots. That's just three snapshots: spacetime continuum exists, spacetime continuum doesn't exist, spacetime continuum exists again. A similar scenario is discussed here in the Tiering System FAQ where a timeline is rewritten multiple times.
- 7,732
- 9,211
I agree with this.
- 10,258
- 6,750
It just feels like you want a very specific scenario where the characters blatantly say "there's infinite snapshots of time here," when that probably hasn't happened with over 90% of verses with hypertimeline. If so, there's nothing more to discuss if you already concede there is time travel, and they travel to deleted timelines in a higher time dimension.
- 470
- 307
- Thread starter
- #150
Actual statements of time travel matter because they imply that movement is taking place along one continuous flow of time. I just think that they're going directly from one point of time in one timeline snapshot to another point in time in another timeline snapshot which is quite different. I'll try illustrating the difference once paint.net is done downloading
- 1,170
- 967
No don't try to shift it, we are talking about this thread specifically but since you haven't found anything about me "mocking" or treating who disagrees with me as "slow" you resort into mentioning other threads (which is something I also disagree with). User has much more worse attitude than me (not throwing shade at him, he is still my friend afterall), espacially when we consider past threads.
And Honestly, user expressed himself in a much more direct way than I do in past threads (and no shade here, we're still friends). Yet, somehow my comments are being taken as "coy", which really isn't my intention at all (sometimes, I admit that). If anything, I try to maintain a respectful tone even when I disagree, and being condescending just isn’t part of who I am (And you know that well). Also, I’ve seen far sharper comments across the forum (in threads you also participate in) that not only go unflagged but are also got a tone of likes. So it’s a bit disheartening to feel like I’m being singled out when I’m genuinely trying to engage respectfully (I won't deny there is a bit of smugness there and there tho). I apologize if I offended anyone here, but if someone is being oversensitive on purpose to make the other look bad , I won't let it go through.
- 10,258
- 6,750
There are literal statements of time travel, but you ignored them with a weird reasoning that when the characters say time travel, they don't actually mean time travel.
You are doing so by mentioning me and using me as a justification for your off-topic, low-quality, posts. Stop.
- 1,170
- 967
I'm not justifying, don't try to twist it.
- 1,170
- 967
This is literally what I'm talking about.
- 35,060
- 41,650
Guys, calm down.
@Planck69 @Maverick_Zero_X @LephyrTheRevanchist @Starter_Pack @Elizhaa @Theglassman12 Need y'all to bring some peace to this thread
@Planck69 @Maverick_Zero_X @LephyrTheRevanchist @Starter_Pack @Elizhaa @Theglassman12 Need y'all to bring some peace to this thread
- 470
- 307
- Thread starter
- #157
Stop misconstruing my claims. I have never ever denied that characters stated that they used time travel, I am simply claiming that there are no cases where time travel is the direct method by which separate "snapshots" of timelines AKA "hypersnapshots" are accessed.
- 7,304
- 2,621
Idk if it quite meets what you’re saying, but it’s implied by multiple sources that different points in time in Sonic actually constitutes its own branched timeline.
Here by Gerald, he mentions returning to his own “jikanjiku” which means time axis or timeline.
Here by Eggman he notes that he sent Sonic to crisis city; another timeline, via time travel, with crisis city later going on to be its own dimension as shown by Generations
Here in Sonic CD it’s noted that time traveling is equivalent to traveling to new dimensions
And here it’s noted that even those timelines at different points in time have their own timelines offshooting them which aren’t affected by the collapse of the root timeline.
On a side note white space also contains the bad future version of stardust speedway during the metal sonic fight, which is an alternate possibility timeline that never had the chance to exist but could have in CD.
OrangeFR
Username Only- 1,711
- 1,029
Isn’t all of that just tier 2 stuff? (IDK which side you are arguing for so IDK if that was your intention)
- 7,304
- 2,621
The argument against was that there was no proof of an uncountable infinite amount of temporal snapshots so I was contributing to the idea there might be, when combined with Tails statement of endless/infinite possibilities corresponding to dimensions within the multiverse.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
