Deltarune CH3&4: Powers and Abilities

[LittleGuy99]

Doing extra damage to Star Element enemies isn't in the item's description, so it can only be inferred from damage numbers, & IIRC, the dubiously canon (Toby said something about stuff not being in Deltarune not being canon.) info about Elemental Pairs from the Spamton Sweepstakes indicating that elements are in pairs; Ergo, anything of 1 element of the pair should also be the other, no?
So the justification might need to explain that (Assuming we accept it.) &/or use Likely.

The weapon deals damage to enemies with the Dark/Star element, although the description only says dark element, it can be said that it is the weapon version of Shadow Mantle

Minor spelling mistake.
There are a couple of issues here.
First off IIRC, Elemental Intangibility is a Power/Ability we list; I'd assume Water is physical. If it doesn't qualify for NPI on the basis that Mizzle is water (& water isn't non-physical.), we may need to list this as like, negation of Elemental Intangibility.

Also, Guei has a problem: Its recruit menu description: "A waxy spirit that generates ghastly flames. Though, not a “real” ghost per se, it has an aversion to whips, water, and the like."
Its own description calls it "waxy" & not a "real" ghost per se, as well as avoiding water. (Whips, too, but that seems to be a Castlevania reference.)
& from Gue's Deltarune Wiki page's trivia section:

• Guei's connections to fire, the mentions of wax in some of the flavor text referring to it, and it drinking wax from a candle at the Cafe indicates that its Light World form is most likely a candle, specifically the memorial candles located in the lobby of the Church.
  • Its flavor text also implies that the candles are for the 3 buried monsters at the Cemetery, sans Gerson Boom:
    • Guei turns its head like a bird.: Crystal
    • Guei wags its tail.: Muttler
    • Guei howls hauntingly.: Shyra

Ergo, Guei is likely a candle, & even in the Dark World, it drinks wax. (Not to mention, being called not a "real" ghost. Though, this may be because it isn't the soul of someone passed on.)

I see, although I'll wait for other people to give their opinion on this

Could this be Statistics Amplification in addition to &/or in place of Light Manipulation? The SOUL naturally emits light & is the source.

Again, could this be Statistic Amplification?

Makes sense, I'll add it

Another typo here, I believe, if you'll forgive my saying so.

Can you tell me what I wrote wrong?
I can read English, but I have a little trouble writing it

 

[Imaginym]

The weapon deals damage to enemies with the Dark/Star element, although the description only says dark element,

Yeah.
The lack of it mentioning extra damage to Star Element foes means it must be inferred from damage numbers, or based on reasoning from the dubiously canon Spamton Sweepstakes stuff.
I'm not entirely opposed; I just wish the evidence didn't line up so sketchily for it being canon, rather than coincidence, such as because of the game's mechanic of Elemental Pairs.

it can be said that it is the weapon version of Shadow Mantle

I'd call this a little dubious. For one, unlike other Secret Boss Items, they're obtained from different sources. While they interact with the same element....

The Shadow Mantle's description:
"Shadows slip off like water. Greatly protects against Dark and Star attacks."

The Black Shard's Dark World description:
"A dagger-like shard of the Black Knife. Strikes the weakness of dark-element enemies."
Light World:
"A small chip of extremely hard glass. Oddly, it's nearly opaque."

In contrast, The Shadow Crystals:
Dark World:
"A sharp shadow moves like water in the hand."
Light World:
"There is a small shard of something in your pocket.
It feels like glass, but..."

Also:

• A "peculiar" book that can be found in the 2nd Sanctuary mentions a "fallen star" making "rivers with its tears" until something that "looked like glass" was formed out of the "bitter water", suggesting a possible connection to Shadow Crystals.[3]

↑ And so wept the fallen star, making rivers with its tears. Then, slowly, from the bitter water, something grew. It looked like glass. - A "peculiar" book, Chapter 4.

While both The Shadow Crystals & The Black Shard are likened to glass, The Shadow Crystals & The Shadow Mantle are both likened to water -Or The Shadow Mantle makes shadows slip off like water, so maybe it is like "glass"?- but The Shadow Mantle is never (at least, directly.) likened to glass, while The Black Shard is never likened to water.
Also, The Black Shard is notably "nearly opaque", while The Shadow Crystals can be seen through.

The Shadow Mantle & The Black Shard have different source bosses, unlike other secret boss equipment pairs, & The Black Shard seems to be a distinct or special amongst its kind. That they both affect a specific elemental pair in a game where elements seem to only exist in pairs even when something could only be one element seems to make the elemental pairing more suspicious.

But again, I'm not entirely opposed to The Black Shard affecting Star Element enemies, it's just it not being directly stated in game means the canonical evidence is a little iffy, IMHO.

& as mentioned above, there is the peculiar book's text, which is all kinds of theory bait. (Ex: When The Knight first turns to face The Delta Warriors, it appears to do something like drooling or crying. Internally, the name for this animation/posture is, according to the Deltarune Wiki "spr_roaringknight_droop"; Could these be the "tears"?)

I see, although I'll wait for other people to give their opinion on this

Fair.

Makes sense, I'll add it

Thanks.

Can you tell me what I wrote wrong?
I can read English, but I have a little trouble writing it

Apologies, I may've misspoke a bit. Your English wasn't wrong; Embezzled (Which is what you wrote.) is a word, but the name of the pertinent act is "Embezzle".
Pardon me & that, please.

& sorry about being so slow to reply; Things came up.

 

[LittleGuy99]

There are a couple of issues here.
First off IIRC, Elemental Intangibility is a Power/Ability we list; I'd assume Water is physical. If it doesn't qualify for NPI on the basis that Mizzle is water (& water isn't non-physical.), we may need to list this as like, negation of Elemental Intangibility.

Also, Guei has a problem: Its recruit menu description: "A waxy spirit that generates ghastly flames. Though, not a “real” ghost per se, it has an aversion to whips, water, and the like."
Its own description calls it "waxy" & not a "real" ghost per se, as well as avoiding water. (Whips, too, but that seems to be a Castlevania reference.)
& from Gue's Deltarune Wiki page's trivia section:

• Guei's connections to fire, the mentions of wax in some of the flavor text referring to it, and it drinking wax from a candle at the Cafe indicates that its Light World form is most likely a candle, specifically the memorial candles located in the lobby of the Church.
  • Its flavor text also implies that the candles are for the 3 buried monsters at the Cemetery, sans Gerson Boom:
    • Guei turns its head like a bird.: Crystal
    • Guei wags its tail.: Muttler
    • Guei howls hauntingly.: Shyra

Ergo, Guei is likely a candle, & even in the Dark World, it drinks wax. (Not to mention, being called not a "real" ghost. Though, this may be because it isn't the soul of someone passed on.)

I will repeat what others have told me:
I don’t think a ghost being able to physically interact with the world contradicts it being a spirit
And it being a candle doesn’t mean it can’t still also be a spirit

Spirits and ghosts are sometimes separated in-verse, so that’s not an issue. Avoiding certain stuff may be more so due to those things being spirit’s weakness. I think NPI should be good unless the spirit has actual anti-feats.

I want to mention that it can fly and in its form as a fireball can become visible and invisible
Also in its dialogues, it refers to itself as a ghost

Quotes:​

• 哦哦哦！(Ooooo!) [Neutral]
• 我鬼 (I ghost) [Neutral]
• 鬼 (Ghost) [Neutral]
• 我很鬼 (I'm so ghost!) [Neutral]
• 你喜歡鬼嗎 (Do you like ghosts?) [Neutral]

On the part of Mizzle I think it makes sense to remove it

 

[Imaginym]

I will repeat what others have told me:
I don’t think a ghost being able to physically interact with the world contradicts it being a spirit
And it being a candle doesn’t mean it can’t still also be a spirit

Spirits and ghosts are sometimes separated in-verse, so that’s not an issue. Avoiding certain stuff may be more so due to those things being spirit’s weakness. I think NPI should be good unless the spirit has actual anti-feats.

I want to mention that it can fly and in its form as a fireball can become visible and invisible
Also in its dialogues, it refers to itself as a ghost

Quotes:​

• 哦哦哦！(Ooooo!) [Neutral]
• 我鬼 (I ghost) [Neutral]
• 鬼 (Ghost) [Neutral]
• 我很鬼 (I'm so ghost!) [Neutral]
• 你喜歡鬼嗎 (Do you like ghosts?) [Neutral]

Fair, though what of it being described as a "waxy spirit" in the recruit menu? If it's waxy, that may indicate it has a physical component of wax, even beyond the implications of what its Light World form is.

On the part of Mizzle I think it makes sense to remove it

Fair.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Fair, though what of it being described as a "waxy spirit" in the recruit menu? If it's waxy, that may indicate it has a physical component of wax, even beyond the implications of what its Light World form is.

Or that it's just a spirit representing wax, rather than literally being made of wax, just like Lancer and Jevil aren't made of literal paper despite being cards.

I think you're overfixating over its LW counterpart and ignoring its actual potrrayal in the DW.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Or that it's just a spirit representing wax, rather than literally being made of wax, just like Lancer and Jevil aren't made of literal paper despite being cards.

Doesn't really explain why it'd avoid water in that case, if it's not literally made of wax and is actually intangible.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Doesn't really explain why it'd avoid water in that case, if it's not literally made of wax and is actually intangible.

It's holywater*, not just any water. And given that Holy Water in fiction is generally wanked to be this super OP thing (and there's only the Mizzles that are the representation of actual holy water), then said water having NPI isn't a stretch.

 

[LittleGuy99]

Doesn't really explain why it'd avoid water in that case, if it's not literally made of wax and is actually intangible.

Its element is Spirit:Fire
Its aversion towards water can be irrational, and because it does not seem very intelligent
And because of the holy water thing

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Yeah I also disagree with the Black Shard doing extra damage to the Star Effect. To add onto the number of differences between the two items, the Shadow Mantle's effect description is "Dark/Star" whereas the Black Shard is specifically "SlayDark" which adds to the idea that the Black Shard isn't intended to be effecting star enemies like that.

Given the fact that there is no actual evidence that points towards it effecting Star enemies any differently, outside of a small section of a wiki page, I'd say it's just a smarter and safer bet to keep it at just Dark enemies as all signs point towards that. Maybe this information will change in future chapters, but until we fight the original boss in a future chapter there's no reason to add it.

 

[LittleGuy99]

Yeah I also disagree with the Black Shard doing extra damage to the Star Effect. To add onto the number of differences between the two items, the Shadow Mantle's effect description is "Dark/Star" whereas the Black Shard is specifically "SlayDark" which adds to the idea that the Black Shard isn't intended to be effecting star enemies like that.

Given the fact that there is no actual evidence that points towards it effecting Star enemies any differently, outside of a small section of a wiki page, I'd say it's just a smarter and safer bet to keep it at just Dark enemies as all signs point towards that. Maybe this information will change in future chapters, but until we fight the original boss in a future chapter there's no reason to add it.

All elements come in pairs, although the description only says "SlayDark" still has the ability to harm the star element, so it is programmed and there is no other armor/weapon that only has an element other than a pairs

 

[Imaginym]

Or that it's just a spirit representing wax, rather than literally being made of wax, just like Lancer and Jevil aren't made of literal paper despite being cards.

I think you're overfixating over its LW counterpart and ignoring its actual potrrayal in the DW.

But the Recruit Description, which calls it a "waxy spirit" is from a Dark World source, Castle Town where a Guei can be found inhabiting, not the Light World where it is a candle.
& if it represents wax, why would the only thing wax-related things it does be make fire & avoid water? (Edit: & also drink wax.)

Also, also, if it is Fire would be Elemental Intangibility, since IIRC, Fire is still chemical reactions & heat & energy.

Also, for comprehensiveness's sake, regarding the behaviour, as the DR Wiki says, there's a case that it avoiding water, & whips & such could be a Castlevania reference, as that's a series where using whips & holy waters are standard forms of attacks in that series, a series where candles are also the target of said items because they can drop items when destroyed.
That said, that's a vague reference to another franchise, so I wouldn't readily give it credence.

Also, there is a possibility it distinctly is averse to water & disliking of Holy Water, given its Recruit Description saying "it has an aversion to whips, water, and the like." but as its Dislike being listed as "holywater"; In theory, maybe the description uses just "water" because vagueness (It ends with "and the like.".), or because of character limits, which using holywater instead might push more than is preferable.

(and there's only the Mizzles that are the representation of actual holy water), then said water having NPI isn't a stretch.

This is slightly dubious.

The Mizzles may be indicated as being water in general; Chapter 3 has dialogue from a Shuttah in the post-escape wastes (South of the room south of the Green Room, blocked off by red velvet rope.) who talks about how Tenna imprisoned the Mizzles in water coolers, forcing their shape to conform. (Which strangely also seems to limit their shape.)

& while there is the HolyWater Cooler....
"A regular "Mizzle" who, after ages of worship, falsely believes herself to be of great royalty. Isn't even "HOLY" elemental."


That said, the Mizzles are indicated to be the Dark World forms of Holy Water based on their internal sprite names.
Though IDK why the Chapter 3 Mizzles, forced into Water Cooler forms, would be holy water; Where would that be in the TV World? The church Mizzles, though, it's more solid evidence, even if I'm not certain how usable internal sprite names are.

I do apologize for anyone I've bothered, by the way.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

All elements come in pairs, although the description only says "SlayDark" still has the ability to harm the star element, so it is programmed and there is no other armor/weapon that only has an element other than a pairs

Yeah, looking further into this makes me hard doubt the Star Effect even more. The game literally doesn't have an elemental system to this, as it only checks for the specific enemies it would effect, not the dual system the armor uses. (Look under weapons)

On an internal and external level, nothing supports the idea of the blade doing increased damage to Star enemies. The only argument you have going for is trying to compare it to an item that is specified to do things the Shard doesn't. With the game as is, this isn't good enough evidence in my opinion as nothing from a player perspective nor an actual gameplay level supports the idea.

 

[FinePoint]

Also, FWIW, "Mini Kris"'s internal name is LilKris, & recently, official merchandise appeared naming them as HERO_SWORD, with the other player characters of the games being HERO_AXE & HERO_SCARF. Unsure of their internal names, though.

If official merchandise is calling them "HERO_SWORD", then that definitely takes precedence over their filename, and is probably what we should call them on the profile.

 

[Imaginym]

If official merchandise is calling them "HERO_SWORD", then that definitely takes precedence over their filename, and is probably what we should call them on the profile.

Even over the internal file name directly from the creator?
I guess it's because the official merch publicized it?

Yeah, looking further into this makes me hard doubt the Star Effect even more. The game literally doesn't have an elemental system to this, as it only checks for the specific enemies it would effect, not the dual system the armor uses. (Look under weapons)

Yeah, once again, IIRC, Elemental Pair's source is a quote from Spamton in the Spamton Sweepstakes Q&A, but shortly before Chapter 3 & 4's release, Toby said stuff about things not being in Deltarune not being canon. I don't know our stance on that. I'd assume stuff like the Spamton Sweepstakes, with Toby's canonocity quote in mind, is canon until contradicted, but if the case is different, IDK.

& elements not actually being paired in the files is news to me.
What about in practice?
Are there cases of enemies being only one element of a known/stated elemental pair?

On an internal and external level, nothing supports the idea of the blade doing increased damage to Star enemies. The only argument you have going for is trying to compare it to an item that is specified to do things the Shard doesn't. With the game as is, this isn't good enough evidence in my opinion as nothing from a player perspective nor an actual gameplay level supports the idea.

What do you mean by this? Doesn't The Black Shard actually do damage to Star Element targets...? Are there Star Element targets? I know there's Dark &/or Star Element bullets.

 

[LittleGuy99]

Yeah, looking further into this makes me hard doubt the Star Effect even more. The game literally doesn't have an elemental system to this, as it only checks for the specific enemies it would effect, not the dual system the armor uses. (Look under weapons)

On an internal and external level, nothing supports the idea of the blade doing increased damage to Star enemies. The only argument you have going for is trying to compare it to an item that is specified to do things the Shard doesn't. With the game as is, this isn't good enough evidence in my opinion as nothing from a player perspective nor an actual gameplay level supports the idea.

I guess you're right, I'll change it
Likewise, if demonstrated otherwise it will be in future chapters

 

[StrymULTRA]

But the Recruit Description, which calls it a "waxy spirit" is from a Dark World source, Castle Town where a Guei can be found inhabiting, not the Light World where it is a candle.
& if it represents wax, why would the only thing wax-related things it does be make fire & avoid water? (Edit: & also drink wax.)

Wax irl isn't even "weak" to water, what? Guei only does due to it being associated with fire as it's a candle in the Light World, but what I said below about the holy water stands.

The Mizzles may be indicated as being water in general; Chapter 3 has dialogue from a Shuttah in the post-escape wastes (South of the room south of the Green Room, blocked off by red velvet rope.) who talks about how Tenna imprisoned the Mizzles in water coolers, forcing their shape to conform. (Which strangely also seems to limit their shape.)

Evidence for that?

Though IDK why the Chapter 3 Mizzles, forced into Water Cooler forms, would be holy water; Where would that be in the TV World? The church Mizzles, though, it's more solid evidence, even if I'm not certain how usable internal sprite names are.

The Pippins of Chapter 3 are implied to be different than the ones of Chapter 1, so I suppose that can be applied here too.

 

[LittleGuy99]

What do you mean by this? Doesn't The Black Shard actually do damage to Star Element targets...? Are there Star Element targets? I know there's Dark &/or Star Element bullets.

For now there is no enemy with star element to verify it I suppose
Only Gerson and the Knight does damage with stars, which is reduced with the Shadow Mantle

 

[FinePoint]

Even over the internal file name directly from the creator?
I guess it's because the official merch publicized it?

Indeed.

Filenames aren't "canon" by default, since they're not actually referenced in the story (unless they are).

And from a practical perspective, internal names in video games tend to be placeholders or overly-simplified to be easier to work with from a coding perspective. You need to look no further than any game where the character's name is whatever but their filename may be something as technical as "Main_Character_01"- which to my knowledge is most games.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

& elements not actually being paired in the files is news to me.
What about in practice?
Are there cases of enemies being only one element of a known/stated elemental pair?
What do you mean by this? Doesn't The Black Shard actually do damage to Star Element targets...? Are there Star Element targets? I know there's Dark &/or Star Element bullets.

Enemies do have specific elements, however these elements are not tied to these elemental pairs. They can range from 1 or 2 elements as seen with the in-game catalogue for all of em. Many of them are singular elements and I don't believe there are any Star Element targets (In fact damn near all of em don't have any of the listed dual types). Given the Black Shard is hard coded to only target specific enemies unlike the armors which use the dual element grid, it shouldn't be following any of the rules the armors have mechanically unless directly proven/stated.

 

[StrymULTRA]

And from a practical perspective, internal names in video games tend to be placeholders or overly-simplified to be easier to work with from a coding perspective. You need to look no further than any game where the character's name is whatever but their filename may be something as technical as "Main_Character_01"- which to my knowledge is most games.

They still can be used as supportive evidence than the main one tbf. Discarding them entirely for the lols regardless of context sounds dishonest.

 

[FinePoint]

They still can be used as supportive evidence than the main one tbf. Discarding them entirely for the lols regardless of context sounds dishonest.

Well, I did literally say "by default"- implying there are exceptions.

 

[LittleGuy99]

Well, I did literally say "by default"- implying there are exceptions.

Gaster Blaster moment

 

[FinePoint]

Gaster Blaster moment

Specifically, I think if there's literally no other mention of a name from an official source, then the filename is probably the next best place we can look at, since we do need to call it something for our purposes.

But given there's official merch with an explicit name, I think we can likely assume that's the "official name".

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Gaster Blaster moment

Honestly Gaster himself is an example of this effect given Toby's refusal to actually name/use him in such material, like the tarot cards

 

[Imaginym]

Wax irl isn't even "weak" to water, what? Guei only does due to it being associated with fire as it's a candle in the Light World, but what I said below about the holy water stands.

Yes, but wax is what fuels candle flames & wax is physical; If it's a waxy spirit, even if that's just representing wax -Despite it being averse to water (description), disliking holywater (Dislikes), & averse to whips (description)-, how could it be non-physical when wax is physical? & it's not like fire (Guei is classified as Spirit:Fire & called Fire when it appears in a group with Mizzle & Balthizard.) is Non-Physical, since it's chemical reactions & heat & energy.

Though, if I may bring up support for NPI (As opposed to the Negation/Nullification of Elemental Intangibility that at the very least Mizzle supports.), what about the matter of the Titan Spawn & Titan? Do we consider them non-physical, or is there something special about darkness, be that of Dark World or Titans/Titan Spawns themselves?

Evidence for that?

Even the water spirits were put to the bottles and coo as coolers...
A liquid contract... a waste of their natural figure. Ooh la la. - Shuttah NPC found in the outskirt northenmost room in the Green Room, only accessible after the area turns blue

FWIW, some quotes about Mizzles:

• MIZZLE - A sleepy water spirit. When TIRED, use Ralsei's PACIFY! [Check]

The aqua spirits trapped in the coolers are beautiful, and best of all, recyclable. - Fortune dispensed by the Ball Machine↑

Recruit Description:
"The aqua fairy which slumbers in the "Water Cooler". Arbitrarily does fairy-like or princess-like things (as she pleases)."

On one hand, their hurt image is them splattered, like a splash of water, & also being put in watercoolers.... Though maybe they didn't leave for the same reason as their impeded vocabulary?

(Which makes Miss Mizzle especially strange, as she's the inverse - She speaks very verbosely while in her ordinary-looking watercooler, but once she's out of it, her dialogue is the one-word babbling typical of water coolers.)

The Pippins of Chapter 3 are implied to be different than the ones of Chapter 1, so I suppose that can be applied here too.

Though that could be just fodder being overconfident -Common in fiction- combined with gambling puns -"In the cards", "you got lucky"- with the stuff about Mizzles, plus there being a green Pippins & Ramb being a plugboy variant, I do agree enemies can differ between Dark World.


On the topic of naming, what do we do about the Sword Route's final boss?

ERAM is from the musical theme, & The Deltarune Wiki gives the boss's page an "Also known as" field where it lists:

• shadow_mantle_enemy (game files)
• nightmare (game files)

I'm not sure which is used where, but we do have any idea which we'd use?
The wiki page itself calls it Shadow Mantle Holder, presumably because of this dialogue:

• Kris... oh... Kris...
• Is it fun, Kris?
• Playing around like this...
• That's why you're searching for them, aren't you?
• The SHADOW CRYSTALs...
• ... and the SHADOW MANTLE that I'm holding!
• Do you honestly think it'll get you what you want...?
• ... no, part of you is just... enjoying this, isn't it?
• [If completed Chapter 2's Weird Route]
  • The same part of you that enjoyed yesterday.
  • Knowing you could say it wasn't really you.
• Oh, don't make that sour face.
• I can see in the dark, you know!
• The question is...
• Can you?

(& some fans think the boss is the Shadow Mantle itself or even RAMB, since the latter disappears after saying he'd keep watch for the third board, though a Rabbick also scaredly mentions him & seeing Kris -Likely HERO_SWORD- while in the anniversary stream, when the Spade King's "cape" goes off after he kneels after the end of his battle, seemingly without any movement to remove it from The Spade King himself, Toby Fox (In TTS) says "cool mantle, bro" as the cape flies up & away, flapping like a winged bat or butterfly, as if alive.)


What do we call the thing, if I may ask?

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

The Pippins of Chapter 3 are implied to be different than the ones of Chapter 1, so I suppose that can be applied here too.

Though that could be just fodder being overconfident -Common in fiction- combined with gambling puns -"In the cards", "you got lucky"- with the stuff about Mizzles, plus there being a green Pippins & Ramb being a plugboy variant, I do agree enemies can differ between Dark World.

On the topic of this. Yeah no those guys are just losers lol, bro was hyping them up.

 

[Imaginym]

On the topic of this. Yeah no those guys are just losers lol, bro was hyping them up.

Lol.
Fair enough. Nonetheless, the Mizzles & arguably RAMB should still indicate enemies can be different in different worlds. (Mizzles may not have been in Watercoolers in TV World's past, but IDK how they could be made of Holy Water -As their sprite filenames indicate- in the TV World, & strictly speaking, Mizzles only appear as the Watercooler enemies in the TV World.)

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

On the topic of naming, what do we do about the Sword Route's final boss?

ERAM is from the musical theme, & The Deltarune Wiki gives the boss's page an "Also known as" field where it lists:

• shadow_mantle_enemy (game files)
• nightmare (game files)

I'm not sure which is used where, but we do have any idea which we'd use?
The wiki page itself calls it Shadow Mantle Holder, presumably because of this dialogue:

• Kris... oh... Kris...
• Is it fun, Kris?
• Playing around like this...
• That's why you're searching for them, aren't you?
• The SHADOW CRYSTALs...
• ... and the SHADOW MANTLE that I'm holding!
• Do you honestly think it'll get you what you want...?
• ... no, part of you is just... enjoying this, isn't it?
• [If completed Chapter 2's Weird Route]
  • The same part of you that enjoyed yesterday.
  • Knowing you could say it wasn't really you.
• Oh, don't make that sour face.
• I can see in the dark, you know!
• The question is...
• Can you?

(& some fans think the boss is the Shadow Mantle itself or even RAMB, since the latter disappears after saying he'd keep watch for the third board, though a Rabbick also scaredly mentions him & seeing Kris -Likely HERO_SWORD- while in the anniversary stream, when the Spade King's "cape" goes off after he kneels after the end of his battle, seemingly without any movement to remove it from The Spade King himself, Toby Fox (In TTS) says "cool mantle, bro" as the cape flies up & away, flapping like a winged bat or butterfly, as if alive.)


What do we call the thing, if I may ask?

Jane already has a profile btw

Shadow Mantle Holder

The Shadow Mantle Holder is the main antagonist of the optional "Sword Route” in Chapter 3 of Deltarune. Not much is known about them, a mysterious entity found in the original version of The Legend of Tenna, a Legends of Zelda-inspired retro game.[Note‎ 1] They speak to Kris a handful of times...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Lol.
Fair enough. Nonetheless, the Mizzles & arguably RAMB should still indicate enemies can be different in different worlds. (Mizzles may not have been in Watercoolers in TV World's past, but IDK how they could be made of Holy Water -As their sprite filenames indicate- in the TV World, & strictly speaking, Mizzles only appear as the Watercooler enemies in the TV World.)

I have come once again to debunk incorrect assessments on random fodder level information about Deltarune. We first start with the "Watercooler" who is described as being quite the looker despite her prudish wear, then we have "Missle" which slumbers in the "Water Cooler", then finally we have "Miss Missle" who is a royal fraud and isn't even holy water and is just a regular Missle.

The only indicator from these of any form of difference is that Watercooler and Water Cooler are spaced differently, though given Miss Missle is considered completely regular a simple name difference shouldn't be enough to discredit it.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Also to add onto the above, if we take our Powerscaler hats for a second and think as for why the Missles might be called holy water while the Watercooler isn't for a quick second........


One is in a church, the other isn't, that's the joke

 

[Imaginym]

We first start with the "Watercooler" who is described as being quite the looker despite her prudish wear

This is a repeated gag, though I won't deny it could be the in-universe standard/perception - Basically every description & line portrays the Watercooler as more beautiful than the Mizzle inside.

then we have "Missle" which slumbers in the "Water Cooler",

Trapped in there & with more limited vocabulary, possibly due to said slumber.
Also, it's extremely implausible that they'd be made of holy water as the filenames of the Mizzles -Only found in Chapter 4- in the TV World.

then finally we have "Miss Missle" who is a royal fraud and isn't even holy water and is just a regular Missle.

FWIW, Miss Mizzle has a different appearance -When not in a Watercooler- & has different bullet patterns.
Also, she can't be a royal fraud when her belief of herself being royalty is stated to be false to begin with. She's just a regular fraud.

The only indicator from these of any form of difference is that Watercooler and Water Cooler are spaced differently, though given Miss Missle is considered completely regular a simple name difference shouldn't be enough to discredit it.

Even the stuff above aside, what of RAMB & the Green Pippins?

Also to add onto the above, if we take our Powerscaler hats for a second and think as for why the Missles might be called holy water while the Watercooler isn't for a quick second........


One is in a church, the other isn't, that's the joke

Yes, but there'd also be no sources of holy water in the Dreemurr Home, which is where the TV World is created.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Even the water spirits were put to the bottles and coo as coolers...
A liquid contract... a waste of their natural figure. Ooh la la. - Shuttah NPC found in the outskirt northenmost room in the Green Room, only accessible after the area turns blue

FWIW, some quotes about Mizzles:

• MIZZLE - A sleepy water spirit. When TIRED, use Ralsei's PACIFY! [Check]

The aqua spirits trapped in the coolers are beautiful, and best of all, recyclable. - Fortune dispensed by the Ball Machine↑

Recruit Description:
"The aqua fairy which slumbers in the "Water Cooler". Arbitrarily does fairy-like or princess-like things (as she pleases)."

On one hand, their hurt image is them splattered, like a splash of water, & also being put in watercoolers.... Though maybe they didn't leave for the same reason as their impeded vocabulary?

(Which makes Miss Mizzle especially strange, as she's the inverse - She speaks very verbosely while in her ordinary-looking watercooler, but once she's out of it, her dialogue is the one-word babbling typical of water coolers.)

Given that the series seems to be a bit lax about what is a spirit, then yeah, I can see Guei being more a fire thing than a literal ghost.

Also apparently we count clouds as non-physical, so I suppose this also goes for NPI (not that it'd matter as they have SOUL hax anyway).

 

[FinePoint]

Given that the series seems to be a bit lax about what is a spirit, then yeah, I can see Guei being more a fire thing than a literal ghost.

Also apparently we count clouds as non-physical, so I suppose this also goes for NPI (not that it'd matter as they have SOUL hax anyway).

"Additionally, interacting with things that lack a set shape/form, in a way that would normally be exclusive to solid objects, would also warrant non-physical interaction; even if those things are technically speaking physical. Take for instance, fire, which albeit perceptible through touch, cannot inherently be held as if it were a singular mass. Doing so would therefore grant non-physical interaction."

Any and all liquids and gases qualify for NPI if interacted with as if they were solid.

 

[Imaginym]

Given that the series seems to be a bit lax about what is a spirit, then yeah, I can see Guei being more a fire thing than a literal ghost.

Well, I'm glad we've come to some kind of agreement, no offense meant.

Also apparently we count clouds as non-physical, so I suppose this also goes for NPI (not that it'd matter as they have SOUL hax anyway).

"Additionally, interacting with things that lack a set shape/form, in a way that would normally be exclusive to solid objects, would also warrant non-physical interaction; even if those things are technically speaking physical. Take for instance, fire, which albeit perceptible through touch, cannot inherently be held as if it were a singular mass. Doing so would therefore grant non-physical interaction."

Any and all liquids and gases qualify for NPI if interacted with as if they were solid.

Surprising, since clouds are water & air.

But if standards say it's NPI, so be it, I support that, but 2 questions:

1. Elemental Intangibility is a thing, why not classify stuff like this as Negation/Nullification of Elemental Intangibility rather than giving Non-Phyical Interaction for interacting with Physicals? I guess because it's being interacted with as though it were a lot more physical than it realistically should?

2. What about the Titan Spawns & Titan as justifications for NPI? IDK off the top of my head if they have special rules being made of "darkness" -Light & Dark seem to be special in Deltarune, especially with Dark Worlds- but surely Darkness is non-physical, to say nothing of the Titan being described as:

Perhaps it's too early to tackle the Titan & such, but:

Titan Spawn:

• [Check]
  • A shard of fear. Appears in places of deep dark.
  • Expose it to LIGHT... and gather COURAGE to gain TP.
  • Then, "BANISH" it!
• Ralsei mutters to himself to stay calm. [Neutral]
• Smells like adrenaline. [Neutral]

Titan:
[Check, Titan's DEFENSE up, before Regenerating]

• TITAN - AT 40 DF 800 The fear of dark, which appears in many forms.

Also, this dialogue:

• Ralsei, what... the hell is that thing?
• When the Fountain's power becomes too strong...
• When the flow of darkness roars wild...
• It makes... that.
• A Titan.
• It's the fear-of-dark.
• It's the bump-in-the-night.
• It's the shadow of the backside of your mind.
• It has no consciousness.
• It only exists to destroy.
• Well... uh...
• How the hell are we supposed to... beat it?
• I...
• ... I don't think we can... It's hatching so fast.
• ...
• Unless...
• Kris, you can seal Fountains, can't you?
• Maybe... if the Titan... is anything like a Fountain...

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

This is a repeated gag, though I won't deny it could be the in-universe standard/perception - Basically every description & line portrays the Watercooler as more beautiful than the Mizzle inside.

Possibly, but I tend to like sticking to the simplest answers that the average perception would see unless there's direct proof otherwise. Most people playing Chapters 3 and 4 would connect the two.

Trapped in there & with more limited vocabulary, possibly due to said slumber.
Also, it's extremely implausible that they'd be made of holy water as the filenames of the Mizzles -Only found in Chapter 4- in the TV World.

File names shouldn't be used in that context as that's a gameplay thing, the Watercooler is a functionally different entity than a Mizzle from a functional standpoint so it'd only make sense. As for the Holy Water part....

Yes, but there'd also be no sources of holy water in the Dreemurr Home, which is where the TV World is created.

Correct.... and that was my entire point. The in-universe information specifically points out that the Missles don't have the holy element because their water doesn't have any special properties compared to normal, they are simply called holy water because they literally exist in a church. Using the in-game catalogue it shows that Watercoolers < Missles < Miss Missle, which follows simple logic if they were all the same race since naturally a bigger and released Missle would be stronger than a smaller contained one.

Even the stuff above aside, what of RAMB & the Green Pippins?

RAMB has no info on if he's actual the mantle or not and Green Pippins likely just follow similar logic to the card enemies where they change colors when the level up. Neither of them have recruited info (with RAMB being only speculatory in-nature) so it's harder to justify but that's my interpretation of the green ones at least. There is established information that a monster can be stronger, though the means of doing so are currently unknown to me (I think they can even devolve based on the Rudinn having his colors fade)

 

[Imaginym]

File names shouldn't be used in that context as that's a gameplay thing, the Watercooler is a functionally different entity than a Mizzle from a functional standpoint so it'd only make sense. As for the Holy Water part....

Functionally different entities besides Mizzles being sealed into the watercoolers & seemingly mentally affected as a result, in TV World, I assume you mean.

Correct.... and that was my entire point. The in-universe information specifically points out that the Missles don't have the holy element because their water doesn't have any special properties compared to normal, they are simply called holy water because they literally exist in a church. Using the in-game catalogue it shows that Watercoolers < Missles < Miss Missle, which follows simple logic if they were all the same race since naturally a bigger and released Missle would be stronger than a smaller contained one.

I suppose that could be the case, that Mizzles are called holy not because their inherent properties are different, but because they are water found in a location considered holy. You mean that? If so, yeah, I can agree.

RAMB has no info on if he's actual the mantle or not

Agreed, but not the comparison in mind; RAMB has a great resemblance to a Plugboy, a type of NPC from Chapter 2 that Queen's wires would turn into Werewire enemies.

and Green Pippins likely just follow similar logic to the card enemies where they change colors when the level up. Neither of them have recruited info (with RAMB being only speculatory in-nature) so it's harder to justify but that's my interpretation of the green ones at least. There is established information that a monster can be stronger, though the means of doing so are currently unknown to me (I think they can even devolve based on the Ruddin having his colors fade)

Fair.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Functionally different entities besides Mizzles being sealed into the watercoolers & seemingly mentally affected as a result, in TV World, I assume you mean.

Yes, as they are entirely different fights with different scripts and gimmicks. From a coding standpoint it just makes sense to have them as seperate names so you don't accidentally have Mizzles showing up when they shouldn't be.

I suppose that could be the case, that Mizzles are called holy not because their inherent properties are different, but because they are water found in a location considered holy. You mean that? If so, yeah, I can agree.

Yes that's what I mean.

Agreed, but not the comparison in mind; RAMB has a great resemblance to a Plugboy, a type of NPC from Chapter 2 that Queen's wires would turn into Werewire enemies.

Yes, Ramb is a Plugboy from Chapter 2 however the speculation aspect I was referring to was for him being the Shadow Mantle Holder. (Multi-tasking lol) Since, beyond that there's nothing indicating any actual differences between them and an average Plugboy. As shown with Miss Mizzle a monster can just have a name if it feels like it, nothing's stopping them. The TV World has other examples of Tenna outsourcing NPCs (Most obviously Lancer and Rouxls) so unless we accept the idea that Ramb is the Shadow Mantle Holder, there's no reason to assume this is another example of Darkners having any notable differences in any meaningful way.

 

[Imaginym]

Yes, as they are entirely different fights with different scripts and gimmicks. From a coding standpoint it just makes sense to have them as seperate names so you don't accidentally have Mizzles showing up when they shouldn't be.

Well, their internal names are a bit different since one's holywater & the other's watercooler, going by internal names, but I think I get you.
EDIT: Another commonality is they all turn pink when SPARE-able.

Yes, Ramb is a Plugboy from Chapter 2 however the speculation aspect I was referring to was for him being the Shadow Mantle Holder. (Multi-tasking lol) Since, beyond that there's nothing indicating any actual differences between them and an average Plugboy. As shown with Miss Mizzle a monster can just have a name if it feels like it, nothing's stopping them. The TV World has other examples of Tenna outsourcing NPCs (Most obviously Lancer and Rouxls) so unless we accept the idea that Ramb is the Shadow Mantle Holder, there's no reason to assume this is another example of Darkners having any notable differences in any meaningful way.

You mean notably differing between Dark Worlds, or just Darkners not differing at all?

I'll admit, the differences of the RAMB & the Green Pippins may be a bit more cosmetic than say, Miss Mizzle seemingly having changed in size, bullet patterns, & speech patterns after "ages of worship". (Possibly Longevity?? Flowery language??)

I guess for the time being, there isn't much evidence Darkners will fundamentally/radically change innately between different Dark Worlds. Heck, it could arguably be contradictory, what with those that don't match the fountain's will petrifying. (Cases of stuff like RAMB only half-Petrifying on one side when he works with Kris in his role on the Sword Route, as opposed to petrifying by the time the party returns to the Green Room normally, & Weird Route differences about who petrifies when in Chapter 2.)

 

[LittleGuy99]

So what's the conclusion with the NPI thing?

 

[FinePoint]

So what's the conclusion with the NPI thing?

What NPI thing?