Finite Universe in Sailor Moon

[WeDrinkVodka]

The sailor moon universe is not infinite.

In order to present my idea, I will be addressing the sailor moon cosmology blog, found here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:HenshinIntervention/Sailor_Moon_Cosmology

The blog starts with the idea of the universe being created by the galaxy cauldron, and being spatially and temporally infinite. This information is fake.

Using this image, we can see that Naoko adapted a possibly infinite concept from real life into a finite concept in the Sailor Moon universe, since the cauldron is located inside the Sagittarius Zero star, a finite celestial object located inside the finite Milky Way.

As further evidence, the Tau Star System, an alternate pocket dimension in the Sailor Moon cosmology, is powered by the Thyoron Crystal, which is a solid piece of evidence it isn't connected to the milky way's cauldron, which in turn implies there are multiple cauldrons.

Furthermore, during Act 59, Sailor Galaxia implies a new cauldron will be born, should Usagi choose to destroy it.

Next, the blog uses Haruka's statement about "real solitude spreading to infinity" as shown here. However, this is a figure of speech, a comparison between the outer guardians being stationed at the edge of the solar system with Usagi's grieves about fighting the next enemy. It's not something to be taken literally.

There is also no connection between this statement and the galaxy cauldron.

Finally, Wiseman's domain is located at the end of space-time, as shown in the blog. Beyond it there is nothing. There is a finite distance between it and the Milky Way.

In conclusion i believe the foundations of the way Sailor Moon is scaled need to be rethought, and one of the first ways is to acknowledge the idea that nothing about the SM verse is infinite.

 

[Hasty12345]

Is that blog even accepted?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

This entire post is just one big incoherent mess filled with made up facts.

Using this image, we can see that Naoko adapted a possibly infinite concept from real life into a finite concept in the Sailor Moon universe

This is a translation note that gives more insight to a scene in the story.



We have a clear as day statement showing that the cosmos is a static cosmos. The Static refers to the real world idea of a universe that is spatially and temporally infinite.

since the cauldron is located inside the Sagittarius Zero star, a finite celestial object located inside the finite Milky Way.

Sagittarius Alpha Star is a dimension at the center of Milky Way and is not bound by the actual size of the galactic center. You have to enter it through a pair of doors. Not to mention it contains an unending graveyard.

As further evidence, the Tau Star System, an alternate pocket dimension in the Sailor Moon cosmology, is powered by the Thyoron Crystal, which is a solid piece of evidence it isn't connected to the milky way's cauldron, which in turn implies there are multiple cauldrons.

You just made this up. Where is your evidence that it's not?

The Thyoron Crystal is said to have the same power as the silver crystal. The Cauldron is stated to be source of all power.

Prove your claims with evidence. Not just posting head canons.

Furthermore, during Act 59, Sailor Galaxia implies a new cauldron will be born, should Usagi choose to destroy it.

How is this relevant?

Finally, Wiseman's domain is located at the end of space-time, as shown in the blog. Beyond it there is nothing. There is a finite distance between it and the Milky Way.

The End of Spacetime is not a location inside the universe and can only be reached via time travel. Also "End of Spacetime" is the name of Wiseman's domain. In the Japanese Raw, it's written with quotation marks.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Using this image, we can see that Naoko adapted a possibly infinite concept from real life into a finite concept in the Sailor Moon universe, since the cauldron is located inside the Sagittarius Zero star, a finite celestial object located inside the finite Milky Way.

Headcanon. The Galaxy Cauldron is surrounded by a Graveyard that has a never-ending funeral procession of dead things. Nothing suggests a finite size unless you wanna appeal to reality and claim it's exactly the same as the irl location. Also, the scan explicitly mentions infinite space and time, the material was approved by Naoko Takeuchi, so the intent is clearly Infinite Universe. Next

As further evidence, the Tau Star System, an alternate pocket dimension in the Sailor Moon cosmology, is powered by the Thyoron Crystal, which is a solid piece of evidence it isn't connected to the milky way's cauldron, which in turn implies there are multiple cauldrons.

Headcanon. Clearly didn't read the scans since the Tau Star System is never called a pocket dimension. Also, Pharaoh 90 (creature from Tau Star System) explicitly came from the Cauldron Usagi was at, not some other imaginary Cauldron. Next

Furthermore, during Act 59, Sailor Galaxia implies a new cauldron will be born, should Usagi choose to destroy it.

Never actually happened, purely hypothetical. Also irrelevant to the Universe being infinite in size. Next

Next, the blog uses Haruka's statement about "real solitude spreading to infinity" as shown here. However, this is a figure of speech, a comparison between the outer guardians being stationed at the edge of the solar system with Usagi's grieves about fighting the next enemy. It's not something to be taken literally.

Sailor Guardians can sense distances across solar systems, sense suffering from other dimensions (Chibiusa) and more. They can literally see cosmic distances and yet Uranus compares real solitude to their posts outside the Solar System. This was in the blog which explains why I suggested to take her comparison more seriously. Next

There is also no connection between this statement and the galaxy cauldron.

There doesn't need to be, the Galaxy Cauldron's location isn't relevant to the size of the Universe. Next

Finally, Wiseman's domain is located at the end of space-time, as shown in the blog. Beyond it there is nothing. There is a finite distance between it and the Milky Way

Literally addressed in the blog and the second sentence is headcanon with no evidence. "Space-Time" is another name for the Corridor. Next

In conclusion i believe the foundations of the way Sailor Moon is scaled need to be rethought, and one of the first ways is to acknowledge the idea that nothing about the SM verse is infinite.

I've seen more effort put into spite threads.

Is that blog even accepted?

Yes it was here. Unfortunately OP hasn't actually read anything from the blog.

 

[Robo432343]

Op what were you thinking
It takes time and effort making a crt for a topic like this, something you clearly didn’t have

 

[WeDrinkVodka]

This entire post is just one big incoherent mess filled with made up facts.



This is a translation note that gives more insight to a scene in the story.



We have a clear as day statement showing that the cosmos is a static cosmos. The Static refers to the real world idea of a universe that is spatially and temporally infinite.



Sagittarius Alpha Star is a dimension at the center of Milky Way and is not bound by the actual size of the galactic center. You have to enter it through a pair of doors. Not to mention it contains an unending graveyard.



You just made this up. Where is your evidence that it's not?

The Thyoron Crystal is said to have the same power as the silver crystal. The Cauldron is stated to be source of all power.

Prove your claims with evidence. Not just posting head canons.



How is this relevant?



The End of Spacetime is not a location inside the universe and can only be reached via time travel. Also "End of Spacetime" is the name of Wiseman's domain. In the Japanese Raw, it's written with quotation marks.

I have asked this CRT to be closed for now, but please understand that you can't take whatever concepts from real life you want, hence the lambda power cosmological point brought up. The static cosmos in the Sailor Moon universe is still not infinite and saying so leaves out a lot of context as demonstrated by the existence of Wiseman's domain (and no you can, in fact, reach it through traditional means, come on bro how can you say that last paragraph with a straight face. End it with the headcanon).

Regardless, you and @HenshinIntervention have, in my opinion, contributed to spreading a lot of misinformation about the nature of the Sailor Moon universe. I agree that the manga can be interpreted in multiple ways but please stop treating yours as the holy bible.

As another example, you can't just keep bouncing back to the "Japanese raws". This is America. The raws can be used as a post scriptum, tertiary argument in my opinion, but in a North American and European context, we have to use the most readily available, accessible and reliable source we can.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

have asked this CRT to be closed for now, but please understand that you can't take whatever concepts from real life you want, hence the lambda power cosmological point brought up.

What concepts did I take from real life? The manga defined the term in bold letters. You posted the scans. I didn't bring it up. The story did.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

 

[WeDrinkVodka]

Headcanon. The Galaxy Cauldron is surrounded by a Graveyard that has a never-ending funeral procession of dead things. Nothing suggests a finite size unless you wanna appeal to reality and claim it's exactly the same as the irl location. Also, the scan explicitly mentions infinite space and time, the material was approved by Naoko Takeuchi, so the intent is clearly Infinite Universe. Next

Headcanon. Clearly didn't read the scans since the Tau Star System is never called a pocket dimension. Also, Pharaoh 90 (creature from Tau Star System) explicitly came from the Cauldron Usagi was at, not some other imaginary Cauldron. Next

Never actually happened, purely hypothetical. Also irrelevant to the Universe being infinite in size. Next

Sailor Guardians can sense distances across solar systems, sense suffering from other dimensions (Chibiusa) and more. They can literally see cosmic distances and yet Uranus compares real solitude to their posts outside the Solar System. This was in the blog which explains why I suggested to take her comparison more seriously. Next

There doesn't need to be, the Galaxy Cauldron's location isn't relevant to the size of the Universe. Next

Literally addressed in the blog and the second sentence is headcanon with no evidence. "Space-Time" is another name for the Corridor. Next

I've seen more effort put into spite threads.

Yes it was here. Unfortunately OP hasn't actually read anything from the blog.

Nothing about this is headcanon lmao, and you dissing my argumentation skills is just the cherry on top, good thing I'm closing this for now

do you trust the manga scans blindly?

That graveyard cannot be infinite. Of course it has a never ending funeral procession since it is a figure of speech. Dude please open your eyes and include the entire context since that scan is related to the nature of the galaxy cauldron. It deserves the milky way, you're welcome

If you haven't noticed, Usagi's remarks about Pharaoh 90 in the stars arc are not properly validated and peer reviewed (in my opinion), which makes sense when you notice Chaos is the source of all evil in the galaxy as common sense dictates.

C'mon bro end it with these letter of the law sealioning arguments. You're not some sort of authority on this verse

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

That graveyard cannot be infinite

Why not?

do you trust the manga scans blindly?

As another example, you can't just keep bouncing back to the "Japanese raws". This is America. The raws can be used as a post scriptum, tertiary argument in my opinion, but in a North American and European context, we have to use the most readily available, accessible and reliable source we can.

LMAO

 

[WeDrinkVodka]

What concepts did I take from real life? The manga defined the term in bold letters. You posted the scans. I didn't bring it up. The story did.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

You made it up because you read the text and interpreted it the way you wanted, and then spread misinformation to the rest of the world as if you hold the absolute truth, that's the problem lol

Naoko used a metalepsis and you fell for it

 

[WeDrinkVodka]

Why not?



LMAO

Well ask Naoko, that's why not lol

How can you create a finite structure and actually take it as infinite?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Well ask Naoko, that's why not lol

How can you create a finite structure and actually take it as infinite?

You are aware that this is a magic girl manga. You know magic. Fiction. Fantasy. Pew. Pew.

 

[Robo432343]

As another example, you can't just keep bouncing back to the "Japanese raws". This is America. The raws can be used as a post scriptum, tertiary argument in my opinion, but in a North American and European context, we have to use the most readily available, accessible and reliable source we can.

.

 

[WeDrinkVodka]

You are aware that this is a magic girl manga. You know magic. Fiction. Fantasy. Pew. Pew.

Please come up with better, more reliable evidence than "this is fiction".

I believe your cosmology blog contains many headcanons that do not pass the eye test and the spirit of the law.

Sailor Moon doesn't have the room to expand on the nature of its cosmology since it's fairly short.

You just mentioned in the other thread that "text is law", I mean we all know what is wrong with this idea. You've headcanoned your way into thinking your own interpretation is law

@Robo432343 On the "This is America" point, it's a cultural thing especially online spaces

 

[Hasty12345]

the eye test and the spirit of the law.

??????

 

[WeDrinkVodka]

??????

the SM cosmology blog contains many references to concepts such as "everything", which is a word that has a lot of meanings. It also includes a lot of scans related to the nature of the galaxy cauldron, which refer to the milky way galaxy, but which are presented by the blog as "the entire cosmology". Hence the eye test, the sniff test if you will.

I included a reference to the blog post in the OP.

This is also where the spirit of the law comes - the word "everything" refers to many fundamental aspects that the cauldron deserves, and this applies to the Galaxy Cauldron's area of operation, the milky way.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

I believe your cosmology blog contains many headcanons that do not pass the eye test and the spirit of the law.

Suspending my disbelief, what exactly are you referring to about the blog?

Can you name a few? I am genuinely curious. Weird talk about "spirit of the law" and such aside.

 

[WeDrinkVodka]

Suspending my disbelief, what exactly are you referring to about the blog?

Can you name a few? I am genuinely curious. Weird talk about "spirit of the law" and such aside.

Sure.

The cosmology blog proposes, in my opinion, an obscurantist point of view that the galaxy cauldron somehow represents more than it actually is, and that the manga is written in a way that appeals to powerscalers. Here Iamunanimousinthat even expands on this by arguing the cauldron somehow adheres to neoplatonic laws, which would therefore possibly make it eligible for a high tier 1 upgrade.

The spirit of the law in my view proposes much bigger involvement of sniff tests. The blog says "everything is created by the cauldron", however, since celestial objects are so big that the average human mind probably cannot comprehend as such, obscurantist schools of thought are liable to expand this as if it actually refers to everything, when in fact, it refers to many fundamental aspects made possible by a portion of the Sailor Moon cosmology.

Coincidentally, although the Silver Crystal is repeatedly called infinite in the manga, it is actually finite. In the scope of the story, it has limits that cannot be bypassed without additional energy or outside help, such as a second silver crystal, the likes of Mamoru, Sailor Galaxia, or Sailor Cosmos, which means the infinity is a laitmotive for the cosmic aspect of the series, and is not to be taken literally.

With the two above points in mind, the no limit fallacy tier 1 SM fans are making therefore becomes obvious. Currently, there are many objects and beings in the verse that do not come from the cauldron.

The rule of thumb is, the more grandiose and flowery the language is, the less is the confidence regarding specifics, small details that completely crumble the foundations of obscurantist blogs that the likes of @HenshinIntervention and @Iamunanimousinthat are proposing. In this regard I came here as a voice of enlightenment, an alternate view that analyzes Sailor Moon in a much more realistic, Aristotelian manner. End the NLF bullshit, bring back innovation! Shout-out to people like @ProcteusInfinity for supporting this point of view, one which I'm confident can also be applied to other verses popular in the powerscaling hobby.

 

[SailorRanger64]

Coincidentally, although the Silver Crystal is repeatedly called infinite in the manga, it is actually finite.

Uh, not only is that not true, it's stated a total of 13 times in the manga that the Silver Crystal has infinite power. A few examples, notice how every bad guy says this.

 

[WeDrinkVodka]

Uh, not only is that not true, it's stated a total of 13 times in the manga that the Silver Crystal has infinite power. A few examples, notice how every bad guy says this.

Unfortunately, this doesn't hold water. Sailor Galaxia wants to use the silver crystal and the sapphire crystal to become invincible and rule the universe. She'd only need one of them if they were infinite.

 

[SailorRanger64]

Unfortunately, this doesn't hold water. Sailor Galaxia wants to use the silver crystal and the sapphire crystal to become invincible and rule the universe. She'd only need one of them if they were infinite.

The Lazurite Crystal, yeah it's not called Sapphire like we thought it was, is all about destruction, Galaxia says it's the most destructive but never states it's infinite, if it was she wouldn't be going after Sailor Moon. I noticed you didn't look at the other examples, so can you prove the Silver Crystal is not infinite then?

 

[WeDrinkVodka]

The Lazurite Crystal, yeah it's not called Sapphire like we thought it was, is all about destruction, Galaxia says it's the most destructive but never states it's infinite, if it was she wouldn't be going after Sailor Moon. I noticed you didn't look at the other examples, so can you prove the Silver Crystal is not infinite then?

back at you, the burden of proof is on you, since the Lazurite/Sapphire crystal was required for destruction, implying the silver crystal can't do so. She went after Usagi to obtain the silver crystal, to have more leverage after an eventual betrayal of Chaos, which she was already planning.

 

[SailorRanger64]

back at you, the burden of proof is on you, since the Lazurite/Sapphire crystal was required for destruction, implying the silver crystal can't do so. She went after Usagi to obtain the silver crystal, to have more leverage after an eventual betrayal of Chaos, which she was already planning.

No no no, you said that the Silver Crystal was finite, and I just posted examples proving otherwise. If it was only once or twice in the entire manga then you might have a point, but it's said throughout the manga which proves you wrong. And the Silver Crystal can't destroy things? Where was this written? If that was true then Usagi wouldn't have been able to destroy her enemies with it.

I get if you disagree with some things, but if you're gonna make a thread like this you need to make sure what you're saying doesn't contradict with what the manga says.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Snip

Please be honest. Was this response written using AI in some way?

It's very obvious that there's a huge difference in the way you are talking to Jawbreaker as opposed to my question. I find it suspicious.

 

[WeDrinkVodka]

Please be honest. Was this response written using AI in some way?

It's very obvious that there's a huge difference in the way you are talking to Jawbreaker as opposed to my question. I find it suspicious.

No i didn't use any ai lol

 

[Huesito88]

No i didn't use any ai lol

You were clearly drunk full of vodka at the time though =P

 

[WeDrinkVodka]

No no no, you said that the Silver Crystal was finite, and I just posted examples proving otherwise. If it was only once or twice in the entire manga then you might have a point, but it's said throughout the manga which proves you wrong. And the Silver Crystal can't destroy things? Where was this written? If that was true then Usagi wouldn't have been able to destroy her enemies with it.

I get if you disagree with some things, but if you're gonna make a thread like this you need to make sure what you're saying doesn't contradict with what the manga says.

All that proves is a larger data sample size but it still gets contradicted by galaxia wanting both crystals. This just proves that more characters said the crystal is infinite.

The silver crystal doesn't have some special property that grants it absolute power more than the scopes of the story, not that I know of.

The silver crystal also forms part of the cosmos crystal.

 

[SailorRanger64]

All that proves is a larger data sample size but it still gets contradicted by galaxia wanting both crystals. This just proves that more characters said the crystal is infinite.

The silver crystal doesn't have some special property that grants it absolute power more than the scopes of the story, not that I know of.

The silver crystal also forms part of the cosmos crystal.

How is that contradictory? Galaxia is evil and she wants more power, if the Lazurite Crystal was truly infinite she wouldn't have to go after the Silver Crystal, it only specializes in destruction.

The Silver Crystal is a sacred gem, and the power depends on Usagi's heart.

Not sure how this disproves the Silver Crystal's power when I've already shown examples of it having infinite power.

 

[WeDrinkVodka]

How is that contradictory? Galaxia is evil and she wants more power, if the Lazurite Crystal was truly infinite she wouldn't have to go after the Silver Crystal, it only specializes in destruction.

The Silver Crystal is a sacred gem, and the power depends on Usagi's heart.

Not sure how this disproves the Silver Crystal's power when I've already shown examples of it having infinite power.

So the crystal is infinite... because and I quote "it's sacred"? And at the same time, the power depends on an external source?

you've just disproven the myth of the infinite crystal

 

[WeDrinkVodka]

How is that contradictory? Galaxia is evil and she wants more power, if the Lazurite Crystal was truly infinite she wouldn't have to go after the Silver Crystal, it only specializes in destruction.

The Silver Crystal is a sacred gem, and the power depends on Usagi's heart.

Not sure how this disproves the Silver Crystal's power when I've already shown examples of it having infinite power.

So the crystal is infinite... because and I quote "it's sacred"? And at the same time, the power depends on an external source?

grats you've contradicted yourself

I want this CRT to be closed btw

 

[SailorRanger64]

It's less of an external source and more Usagi gets better with it as the story goes, but it doesn't disprove the infinite power examples I've given. Anyway, I don't think there's any more need to go on.